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Posted: 7/17/2015 11:56:12 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here's a C17 cargo floor. Those are the D rings that are normally needed for heavy vehicles. They're rated at 25,000 lbs each. http://s27.postimg.org/i7ky0py6b/ers.jpg Off topic: Dang, how many Apaches can a C17 carry? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:05:16 PM EDT
[#2]
I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out?
But as for the event. 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:10:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'll probably never need the information, but I still appreciate the info. Same thing I was thinking. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:12:13 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Off topic: Dang, how many Apaches can a C17 carry? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here's a C17 cargo floor. Those are the D rings that are normally needed for heavy vehicles. They're rated at 25,000 lbs each. http://s27.postimg.org/i7ky0py6b/ers.jpg Off topic: Dang, how many Apaches can a C17 carry? 3 |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:13:53 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryHoly hell... that makes me sick to my stomach. What a way to go...
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:21:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:25:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:27:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. Keep the descent rate low and the forces that could cause a forward movement can be greatly minimized. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:28:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Haven't watched that video in a while... Damn that must have been horrible to be in that plane. I have had nightmares of being in plane crashes like that. Did not need to see that. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:29:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Off topic: Dang, how many Apaches can a C17 carry? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here's a C17 cargo floor. Those are the D rings that are normally needed for heavy vehicles. They're rated at 25,000 lbs each. http://s27.postimg.org/i7ky0py6b/ers.jpg Off topic: Dang, how many Apaches can a C17 carry? 2. One goes in nose first, at an angle. Second one is backed in. I rode the tail of one in to keep an eye on the clearances, and the tail wheel hit a D ring divot and caused the tails to collide. I was almost squished between them. I climbed down and went back to the shop to contemplate life. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:29:43 PM EDT
[#11]
Why aren't chains allowed on Boeing aircraft?
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:29:43 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Caver, yes, I think a zipper effect would be accurate, then an unrestrained pallet and vehicle went thru the aft bulkhead and into the rudder and stab hydraulic packs. What a fucking nightmare. I never had a shifting load while flying freight, thank God. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:32:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It makes me appreciate the good job done by the guys loading the mil birds I have flown in. We are required to reatrain 4gs forward and down, 2gs up and back, and 1.5 g lateral. Vehicles normally get chains due to cut risk with straps. I hate to know how little they restrained the 747 cargo, but it must have had little or no restraint. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:33:31 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why aren't chains allowed on Boeing aircraft? No tie down points for them really. There are a few O rings on the outer rails, but if remember correctly, they're not rated very high. MB-1 chains and devices are rated at 10k lbs, and MB-2s are 25k. You can't mix chains and straps due the the extreme differences in stretching (nylon vs steel). |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:34:13 PM EDT
[#15]
The FAA has been observing freight operators much more closely since this accident. Even when we have maintenance feds overseeing our mechanics, they observe our loading and unloading procedures. (Part 121 Air Carrier) |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:36:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm learning a lot in this thread. I'll probably never need the information, but I still appreciate the info. Me too. There is a lot of good info and a lot of cool pics. I never thought so many straps and chains would be used. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:36:22 PM EDT
[#17]
I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage.
Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:36:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It makes me appreciate the good job done by the guys loading the mil birds I have flown in. 
You're welcome. Now go off load your baggage. 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:37:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage. Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:40:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:41:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is no lack of tie downs on a 747. We just dont use chains as they have no give and will damage the the D rings. The key in this crash was not enough proper straps were available. If I remember right they flew in with this load right? Got fuel and flew out. Or am I remembering it wrong? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:43:41 PM EDT
[#22]
I had a load shift while driving my truck and I could feel it pretty hard. I can't imagine what an armored vehicle felt like hitting the back of the plane while they were in V2.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:46:21 PM EDT
[#23]
It sucked when it happened and it sucks now.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:46:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FAA has been observing freight operators much more closely since this accident. Even when we have maintenance feds overseeing our mechanics, they observe our loading and unloading procedures. (Part 121 Air Carrier) |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:48:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Sometimes even a F16 needs a lift
Boats too 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:51:02 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage. Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? NTSB REPORT |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:51:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What a fucking nightmare. I never had a shifting load while flying freight, thank God. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Caver, yes, I think a zipper effect would be accurate, then an unrestrained pallet and vehicle went thru the aft bulkhead and into the rudder and stab hydraulic packs. What a fucking nightmare. I never had a shifting load while flying freight, thank God. Me neither. Never had a strap break, but I did have a chain pop out of a tiedown device once. That's it...one time in 15 years of flying. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:51:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage. Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? It stated the evidence indicated they broke prior to impact. They weren't scorched or burnt either. Let me look some more and see if I can find the video. Daily Mail Article |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:55:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It stated the evidence indicated they broke prior to impact. They weren't scorched or burnt either. Let me look some more and see if I can find the video. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage. Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? It stated the evidence indicated they broke prior to impact. They weren't scorched or burnt either. Let me look some more and see if I can find the video. According to recorded data, at about 0957 while the airplane was still on the ramp in Bagram, the captain was made aware of a broken strap found by one of the other crewmembers, and the cockpit crew had a discussion about a possible shift of the cargo load during landing in Bagram. There was additional discussion on re-securing the load prior to departure The National Airlines Chief Loadmaster told NTSB Staff that while the large vehicles were
“different”, it was not different on how you strapped them down to the airplane. In interviews with the National Air Cargo ground crew in Bagram, NTSB Staff was told personnel from the Dubai offices conducted “some classes on how to palletize a ‘Stryker’, which was about 12-13 tons.” |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:56:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It stated the evidence indicated they broke prior to impact. They weren't scorched or burnt either. Let me look some more and see if I can find the video. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage. Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? It stated the evidence indicated they broke prior to impact. They weren't scorched or burnt either. Let me look some more and see if I can find the video. I think I remember reading about how the straps were tied in different lengths thus making the load ratings different for each strap. Then when they took off they think one strap broke then causing a domino effect on the rest of the straps? |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:59:34 PM EDT
[#31]
During the fuel stop in Bagram, the cockpit crew was notified of a damaged strap and a possible
load shift on the main deck of the accident airplane. To secure the pallets to the main deck of the B747-400, the accident loadmaster had told the Camp Bastion loaders to secure the vehicles using 5,000 pound rated straps. According to the Camp Bastion loaders, the accident loadmaster told them to secure the 12-ton MATVs with a total of 24 straps, and secure the 18-ton Cougars with a total of 26 straps. Unfucking real. This guy was BEGGING to kill people 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 12:59:46 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 7/17/2015 1:46:07 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is interesting. I always fear when a cargo strap lets go. Here Calif, a cargo strap broke on a tractor/trailer rig hauling huge concrete sewer pipes near Needles Calif, and the falling pipes squashed a car killing the occupants. People today are so darn lazy take a few extra minutes to put on extra straps, it is incredible. As the old saying goes, "everything is held together by a shoe string, what happens when the shoe string breaks?" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Every time I'm behind a semi carrying pipes, logs, hay bales, tractors, etc (anything that will roll/move)... I ALWAYS contemplate evasive maneuvers while trying to get around it as fast as I can (especially on the motorcycle). My BIL got a million-dollar settlement from a trucking company because the doofus driver didn't secure the flatbed trailer with chains and it came-off the truck and smashed into his car at speed on the interstate -- shattering his leg into many pieces. He's lucky to have lived, but he'll be dealing with the pain from that for the rest of his life. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 1:46:42 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can't imagine the horrifying feeling of those on board that rode it in that day.
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Posted: 7/17/2015 1:48:39 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 1:52:38 PM EDT
[#36]
How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed?
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:00:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg Holy shit! That's the best system we can come up with?  |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:08:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed? I've been thru aviation safety school. Crash investigations is actually fascinating. Too much to type here, and I'm far from an expert, but how metal breaks under certain stresses is a good start. The video as well is evidence. RIp to the crew. They had to know what was coming. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:10:29 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed? They pay some very highly qualified experts a lot of money to painstakingly research the incident. My guess is a combination of physical evidence and electronic evidence helped them determine damage to the control system prior to impact. The crappy thing about this is once the load shifts and the plane pitches up, it only makes things worse and the straps have to hold even more weight due to the force of gravity. Normally the vehicles would not have been at much of a vertical angle (maybe 10-15 deg on climb out). Once the nose pitched up even more all that weight was hanging on straps that wouldn't have otherwise been designed to hold that much weight. The straps shown in the pictures would of course hold the vehicles "Down" to the floor, and also provide resistance to fore / aft motion during acceleration and deceleration as well as other maneuvers. The may not have been installed in a way to hold the full weight vertically, especially if there was an impact force from another vehicle coming loose. I'm sure the loadmasters can correct any errors in my statement (made based on my engineering backround). |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:29:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Interestingly, the FAA/TRANSCOM inspector was in country doing inspections when that happened. We had just flown with him for our inspection.
We had also gone into Bagram twice that day, and were getting ready to go a third time when we got the notification about the crash. But we had heard at the time that it was a microburst, which is why we cancelled. Then the video came out, and it was clear what happened. The FAA inspector wanted us to pick up and fly the accident investigators around, but we were already booked solid. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:32:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:34:42 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. A regional bush pilot was telling me about a time he didnt have his seat locked - in an otherwise bare cessna 172 I think. he took off and the seat rolled all the way to the back of the plane, which shifted COB and started an insane climb. he had to mountain climb back to the stick, had no seat to push against so he had to sprawl his legs against the floor and the roof of the plane to be able to push the stick forward. could have killed him easy. He was Russian. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:35:06 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every time I'm behind a semi carrying pipes, logs, hay bales, tractors, etc (anything that will roll/move)... I ALWAYS contemplate evasive maneuvers while trying to get around it as fast as I can (especially on the motorcycle). My BIL got a million-dollar settlement from a trucking company because the doofus driver didn't secure the flatbed trailer with chains and it came-off the truck and smashed into his car at speed on the interstate -- shattering his leg into many pieces. He's lucky to have lived, but he'll be dealing with the pain from that for the rest of his life. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. Will there be or have there been repercussions to the Loadmaster? Every time I'm behind a semi carrying pipes, logs, hay bales, tractors, etc (anything that will roll/move)... I ALWAYS contemplate evasive maneuvers while trying to get around it as fast as I can (especially on the motorcycle). My BIL got a million-dollar settlement from a trucking company because the doofus driver didn't secure the flatbed trailer with chains and it came-off the truck and smashed into his car at speed on the interstate -- shattering his leg into many pieces. He's lucky to have lived, but he'll be dealing with the pain from that for the rest of his life. Wait the trailer come of the tractor or did a trailer come off the trailer, because Ive never seen a semi trailer with safety chains its just all the fifth wheel, unless it was a bumper pull. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:38:48 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I remember right they flew in with this load right? Got fuel and flew out. Or am I remembering it wrong? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There is no lack of tie downs on a 747. We just dont use chains as they have no give and will damage the the D rings. The key in this crash was not enough proper straps were available. If I remember right they flew in with this load right? Got fuel and flew out. Or am I remembering it wrong? From the NTSB report "According to the load manifest, while in Camp Bastion, the airplane was loaded by National Air Cargo (NAC) ground personnel with 94,119kgs of cargo,11 including 5 Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) armored military vehicles that were loaded on the main deck of the airplane.12 National Air Cargo was contracted by National Airlines to perform the pallet build up and loading of the cargo.13 Two of these vehicles weighed about 12 tons each, and the other three weighed about 18 tons each.14 According to National Airlines, the accident captain and first officer (FO) did not have prior experience carrying mine resistant armored vehicles,15 and it was the first time National Airlines had transported 18-ton military vehicles when they were loaded on the accident airplane in Camp Bastion." |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:42:46 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A regional bush pilot was telling me about a time he didnt have his seat locked - in an otherwise bare cessna 172 I think. he took off and the seat rolled all the way to the back of the plane, which shifted COB and started an insane climb. he had to mountain climb back to the stick, had no seat to push against so he had to sprawl his legs against the floor and the roof of the plane to be able to push the stick forward. could have killed him easy. He was Russian. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. A regional bush pilot was telling me about a time he didnt have his seat locked - in an otherwise bare cessna 172 I think. he took off and the seat rolled all the way to the back of the plane, which shifted COB and started an insane climb. he had to mountain climb back to the stick, had no seat to push against so he had to sprawl his legs against the floor and the roof of the plane to be able to push the stick forward. could have killed him easy. He was Russian. I can think of two light plane accidents I know from seats rolling back at rotation, and the pilot holding onto the yoke. Immediate stall/spin/crash/burn/die/burn. A jump plane near my house had a engine fire after takeoff, and the jumpers all went to the back of the cabin to escape the flames and the load stalled the aircraft. At least thats the theory. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:45:41 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed? 
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Posted: 7/17/2015 2:50:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Load shift. Not as uncommon as you would imagine and dangerous as hell. Might be common on civilian aircraft, but I rarely heard of it happening in the AF and never had it happen to me in 15 years. I flew KC's a few years... worst load shift I ever experienced was some cargo strapped baggage... worst CG issue was when my co burned too long out of the forward tank. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 3:00:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wait the trailer come of the tractor or did a trailer come off the trailer, because Ive never seen a semi trailer with safety chains its just all the fifth wheel, unless it was a bumper pull. Good question... I believe that the trailer came-off the tractor. But I hadn't considered the chain deal (cause you're right about that). At any rate, the driver failed to secure the trailer properly and it went bad from there. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 3:03:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. SO FREAKING AWESOME!!! The 757 is my favorite airliner and always gives me wood. I used to load freight on them for UPS. I'm also a private pilot (though I don't fly anymore) and if I'd had to "drive a bus" for a living... the B757 is the one I always wanted to fly. |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 3:09:30 PM EDT
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How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed? http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.wbur.org/wordpress/12/files/2013/06/0624_twa-reconstruction.jpg I don't think there was even that much left. It was full of gas. After about a week, civil engineering used bulldozers to push everything into a pile. I tried to go out to the site to pick up a piece for the shop, but I would have had to walk through a mine field to get to it. |
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