You're special, aren't you? Here, hold your breath. In fact, who are you? Are you O_P's body guard, or secretary at arms or just some weird dude who wandered in here to side swipe a Mormon?


If you're so horny for a link, go find it yourself, do your own homework since you're that interested in the quarrels between two other men, or are you just sweet on him?  I bet you're frustrated as all hell that you wondered in, made a monumental jerk of yourself and now just can't find it in you to slither off and shut up.  

Lol. This thread delivers.

The tone of your posts appears to be approaching hysteria. Maybe you should take a break from the keyboard friend?

 
I'll examine that for a moment or two, lets see, so called "Christians" can be as insulting, antagonistic, disgusting as they wish, unabated, and this is acceptable, and a Mormon that won't have any of that crap that tells said so called "Christians" to go pound sand posts are approaching hysteria. I'm good with hysteria.


The Atheists are loving this exchange, Evangelical Christians and the LDS throwing blows, I suppose we could go all the way, buy them a bucket of chicken and a case of beer to go with the show.  Now that's hysterical.

I didn't say "sacred" I said "secret".

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

It is sacred.

That is my point entirely.

You mad, bro?

What did I delete? What am I being accused of?

Deleting quote-trees is a *good* thing... Just look up in the thread, if you want to see what was posted before?-!-?!

I don't think I deleted anything... Or denied anything...

This thread took a serious derailment... Which I warned about a page or two ago.

You don't regulate the hardcore antagonists... Threads go south fast...

Folks who honestly want positive two-way discussions, this can't be what you want...!-!

It's horse hockeys to beleive that God would set up such a system in that faith is the only way to eternal salvation.

Consider a Fijian, living in 1000 AD, happily minding his business in his tropical paradise. He croaks one day and at the pearly gates, God says "Well Mr. Fijian, I am sorry to tell you that because you didn't hear of a book about a man that lived and died 1000 years ago on the opposite end of the planet, you will be living in eternal damnation and fiery brimstone. Thanks for all the really cool rock idols and stuff. Nice touch, but not enough to save your soul"


It's nuts. Why would the Fijian ever be created? He had no chance of reading a Bible. Was the perfect God merely toying wtith the Fijian? Eternal punishment? Does that sound something like a loving, caring omnipresent being would do? I sure as hell hope not. Maybe your God does, but not mine.

It saved a few damned souls from the clutches of satan and hell for sure.

You know secret and sacred aren't synonyms right, and the latter doesn't imply the former.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

 


BTW, as for a Biblical possibility, Ravi Zacharias makes a good point here:

I stand by my original explanation...

We consider it to be sacred.

 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;

You know I think you are an asset to this site.

You know the respect goes back *years.*

And I will say you don't use fowl language...

But you are demanding an apology...

LDS folks on arfcom haven't gotten one from M-1975 when he lied and said that kids were whipped on the Mormon Trail for being cold.

He accused Smith of being a sexual predator, and posted LDS Temple videos in an purposeful effort to antagonize LDS arfcomers...

Looks like there will be apologies going several directions...

But I appreciate you pointing-out that apologies are necessary...

Wow.


 

Even if I owed you an apology (which I don't), that doesn't excuse the false witness regarding O_P.

I called this yesterday...

M-1975 is not interested in maintaining two-way positive discussion...

Yeah...

Apologies will be all-around, looks like...

My point was that you are obviously not interested in two-way positive discussion...

And that you have been caught in false-witness concerning LDS beliefs... You have been caught lying several times...

Whether you apologize and own up to it is up to you...

But O_P can't feign impartiality while you skirt the COC for calling Smith a sexual predator and post LDS Temple videos...

Your goal was to antagonize arfcoms LDS members, whether you have the integrity to admit it or not...

Did the Apostles worship in temples after Christs ascension or did they teach there?

Do you realize that the allegations of sexual predation are actually justified with Smith?

Transcript from that video:






More, from the former seminary teacher who was told to shut-up and hide the truth from his students:

My goal is to show you that Mormonism is built on lies. My prayer is that you will read your Bible and follow the Jesus therein, which the LDS does not teach.

 

And stating the severity of Smith's sexual misconduct in plain terms, nor is posting the actual rituals of the LDS church, a violation of CoC. It's the truth, and the truth shall set you free.


"Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed" -John 3:20.

Again, yes people in the OT DID practice pologamy .  Also practiced adultery, murder etc.  that doesn't mean God TOLD them to.  Now a coworker and friend of mine is LDS.  In a civil discussion with him about pologamy in the LDS church, he said Mr Smith was instructed to participate in pologamy in order to grow the population of the church.  If he only sealed and didn't consummate, how does that increase the population? Maybe he was wrong?

Jesus cleaned the temple because people were using it for their own profit. There was nothing that people were not supposed to see.  The temple was made for GOD.  When people used it for their own gain, people who were supposed to respect it, yes Jesus got mad.  Would be like if the pastor of a church was using the pews to seat people to watch porn on a big screen in front of the alter, then taking the money to buy himself a new car.

Nobody can accuse you of not doubling-down.

Your videos are chickenshit and one-sided. They only present your side... And make serious leaps in speculation...

There is no fully-legit source that backs-up your claims against the ecclesiastical leader of LDS arfcomers...

Your goal in your posts concerning Smith and your LDS Temple videos was to antagonize LDS arfcomers...

I called this yesterday...

No, there was a time when some people who had no idea what Mormonism taught would ignorantly believe Mormonism's claim to be "Christian."

It was, "Why are you saying they aren't Christian?  They say they believe in Jesus, too."

Then they were exposed to Mormonism's doctrines and understood why Christians said that Mormonism wasn't Christian at all.

They saw Mormons call Christians liars for stating Mormon doctrines - it happened again in THIS thread, multiple times - and then saw Christians produce proof from LDS sources proving that the Christians knew what they were talking about.

 
It's telling that you don't address the actual issues, that is, the taking advantage of young women while his wife was away.




Knock off the rhetoric, and face the truth.


 

ETA:

Your problem with that position...

Is that you have outright been caught lying...

You have outright been caught posting from atheist links. You were caught posting to an active homosexual.

You have zero credibility. Your effort was not to witness truth... It was to purposefully antagonize...

I can't tell how much you love me, while you are shouting lies and how much you hate me...

You have some issues... If you hadn't been caught lying, and liking to a homosexual... You might be taken as sincere...

I called this yesterday...

Wow:

People tire of these false accusations.

Lying? no. That's another false witness on par with O_P.


As is trying to blot-out the truth with accusations of homosexuality. See, secret rituals and trying to excuse and cover-up the misconduct of Joseph Smith and the LDS church is contradictory to the words of Jesus:


John 8:12: Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

I asked Mormons to state the gospel pages ago.

No response.

They don't know the gospel.

Walker sustained Smith as a prophet.

She wrote journals, and made public statements. She never said or implied that Smith touched her.

Your whole foundation is speculation and postulation...

Walker claimed to her death that Smith was a prophet, and she never said he put his hands on her in that way as you imply...

The facts don't back up your lies...

You lie to be purposefully antagonistic to LDS arfcomers...

I called this yesterday...

And David Koresh's followers thought he was a prophet as they died in Waco. Was he? Did their belief excuse the misconduct he committed? Why does it excuse Smith's?

Nope they don't.

 




Here's what happened afterwards, starting @ 7:50:






Note the guy at 7:50 doesn't think the definition of "faith" is just about belief in the gospel.



 

You didn't explain anything about why "sacred" necessitates "secret". You just keep repeating "it's sacred" instead of answering the question.

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Just more hypocrisy from mainstream Christians.   They do nothing but bash a religion whose past and current teachings are found in the bible.

I guess with every slam,  they just show a little more of how they don't even believe the Book they claim to profess.




God is in the form of a man, and is plural, not one.   "And God said, Let US make man in OUR Image, after OUR likeness.

Polygamy is practiced in the Bible and is allowed by God.

Tithing is taught in the Bible, instituted with Adam and not part of the Mosaic law.

Temple worship is found in the Bible.  Christ never said temples are to be done away with.  The apostles mention the temple in their teachings numerous times after Christ has gone.

Prophets are found throughout the Bible, and is how God directs his work.  Amos 3:7  Even the Prophets in the Bible were not perfect,  but I guess they expect Mormon prophets to be infallible.

Faith, Repentance, and Baptism, are taught over and over.   Christ giving us the perfect example.

We are told to DO,  not to earn salvation, but because we love Christ.  John 14:15




Just to name a few.


Yet for some reason, that is what they find fault with in the LDS Church.    I guess if they are claiming Mormonism is false because of those things,  they are saying they don't believe in the Bible and it's teaching.

Since you're such an expert on our temple ceremony and have such a vast amount of knowledge about it, why don't you tell us which part is as you claim "idolatrous"

Most notably the love and reverence for the church...pledging everything you have to it.



i·dol·a·try








 
 

 

For some reason, that is what critics find fault with in the LDS Church. I guess if they are claiming Mormonism is false because of those things, they are saying they don't believe in the Bible and it's teaching.

You have issues.


 You are a proven liar.  I pity you.

For some reason, all the same arguments that have already been countered are coming up. The JW's do the same thing when they run out of argument.

 

Wow, all I can say is I'm glad this has been allowed to keep going, very informative. Despite the heat in the discussion, it has been pretty civil. Beliefs are amazingly powerful forces in our lives, just got to be sure and choose good ones.

Are you saying you have run out of argument?

So about those 66 books.  What about the 52+ others that were excluded by the vote of man?   What about the writings of the other apostles we don't have?   How do you know there was not teachings in those that were essential for salvation?  You don't.
You are claiming you hope the men that put the Bible together were divine enough to get it right,  before they corrupted the church and necessitated a reformation.



I am not appealing to the understanding of Man.  I am reading straight from the Bible.  That verse in Genesis one of the easiest verses to understand.  It fits Mormon doctrine perfectly.  We don't have to do all sorts of twists and turns to get it to fit with the rest of the Bible.   There is more then one way to be "one".  A husband and wife are "one".  A team is "one" .  Yet there are more than one individual.  If you look at all those verses you posted about the triune of God with that mindset(one in purpose),  it works perfectly, and no twisting is needed to make Genesis match your belief.

The LDS never said we were an exact likeness.  Our body is mortal.  God is glorified and perfected.  But our image and form (likeness) is like his.



Maybe you should read all the stories of people that visited the prophet Joseph Smith.  There were many ministers and others.    All of them were expecting to meet a "monster" like you are trying to make him into.  Almost without exception,  they were amazed that he was not a monster at all,  but one of the most Christlike caring men they had ever met, who would go out of his way, and give up his own comforts, for the comfort of others.  If you want,  I can post pages and pages of experiences talking about his character from first hand accounts.  He was often falsely accused of crimes, and released time and time again, for lack of evidence.



Tithing settlement does not affect your standing in the church.  I work with the bishop and know firsthand.  There were many people that were not able to make it to tithing settlement last year.   They still hold temple recommends and regularly go to the temple.  You are encouraged to go,  but there is no penalty if you don't.  

Here is one of the main reasons from the church itself in relation to tithing settlement.

"Reviewing your records of contributions helps you ensure they are correct. An important part of the Church’s audit procedures is to have individuals check whether their personal records match the Church’s and whether contributions were properly distributed in the categories selected on the donation slips."

The other reason is to declare your tithing status.  Funny how church critics are the only ones that have a problem with this.  

As I said,  if you don't go to tithing settlement,  there is no penalty.  I know firsthand.



I didn't dodge the question.   You are the ones twisting words trying to claim after = because.   I have been very clear on our doctrine.  I have posted apostles being clear on our doctrine,  yet you still push the lies.   We know our doctrine.  You interpret Mormon doctrine about as well as you interpret the Bible.  (very poorly)


I did read Amos.   Mormon prophets fit the test of prophets, just as well as any prophet in the Bible.   They are still men.  They still make mistakes,  just as biblical prophets and apostles did.   If you claim Mormon prophets and apostles are false because of mistakes,  you also must claim the Bible counterparts frauds as well.



Funny how often people cite a prophecy of Joseph Smith as not being fulfilled, because it did not happen in "his generation".  

Looking in the Bible, using their criteria,  They must believe Jesus gave unfulfilled prophecy as well.

Matthew 24 talks about many things to happen prior to the 2nd coming, and in verse 34, he states:"34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Clearly, "this generation" has a deeper meaning than LDS critics believe.

When someone states something that wasn't said by O_P at all, and it included language he never has used that I'm aware of, it deserves an apology. I saw what was said and there can be no misunderstanding what he said and didn't say.

I think on the prophet subject, where there is misunderstanding is not that humans, whether they be prophets or not, don't sin, but the prophets in the Bible were never wrong (to my knowledge) regarding prophecies. In fact they never contradicted each other even though they lived centuries apart.  


I think God may inspire modern day people to say and write things but imho, there is nothing left to prophesie as John in Revelation took us all the way to the Great White Throne Judgement. After that it's eternity.  I have not read all of anybody's writings who claim to be prophets but if one thing they say turns out to not happen or is against the scriptures in any way, they are false prophets. ymmv

Just curious to get some opinions from the mainstream Christians on here.


Recently a member of my congregation passed away.  He was loved by all the members in the congregation.  We all referred to him as "Brother Jack."  I am telling his story as he often told it to others.

He was in trouble most of his life.  In and out of prison several times for robbery and assaults.  He was addicted to alcohol for much of his life as well, which cost him his first marriage.  

When he was about 60,  two LDS missionaries knocked on his door and something told him to let them in.  At first, he was just trying to be polite, but as they talked about the plan of salvation and Christ's atonement for him,  he felt something that he had never felt before.  He states he had read the Bible in prison some, but was never really interested, and was skeptical when they pulled out the Book of Mormon.  They invited him to read it and compare it to the Bible.  He said he sat down that night and started in 1 Nephi, and couldn't put the book down.  He stayed up all night and read, and continued through the next day.  He said it was like something awakened in him that he had never known before.  He said he know it was true before he finished.  The missionaries stopped back by a couple days later and the first thing he asked them is how can he accept Christ.  When they mentioned being baptized,  he committed right then to do it.  A few weeks later he was baptized.   His transformation was night and day.  He truly had a change of heart.  He gave up alcohol cold turkey.   He would often talk about his love for the Savior and how his life had been changed.   From that point on,  he spent almost every day,  helping others.  He would visit the many widows in the congregation making sure they were taken  care of.  Even at 65 years old, he was the first one to show up when someone needed help moving.  

He often said he didn't do what he was doing for a reward or recognition,  but because he was hoping to show others the same love he knows Christ showed him. His change of heart was clearly evident to all who knew hm. Through his example and service,  about a dozen others joined the Mormon church.

So the question is,  do you think he will be saved?

Yes, because he seemed to have a genuine conversion with what knowledge he was given.  Why wouldn't the guys who knocked on his door just give him a Bible?

 

 
No, I did not accuse you falsely. Oddly, I am not attacking your faith, I am attacking your position based upon your deportment where you and I have an exchange that involved you cussing me out.  Again, I IMed you (back then) about it addressing you regarding the event and how taken back I was by it.


Now you demand as it were, asserting it is my "responsibility" to produce your quote or apologize to you.


I shall do neither, you're the party offering offense, you apologize to me, for your words then, and your actions now where you you've called me as liar as well as attacked my faith. You even have your chronies sticking up for you as if they were there when you and I got into it demanding you did no such thing, below this, you have M-1975 "Holier than all" speaking all "King Jamesey" accusing me of bearing false witness against you.  


I am absolutely adamant in my reference to both your past and present conduct to me..


Not only that, but I submit this to the reader, "These are so called Christians, these are the representatives of "their God" (As they further back insist the God  and Jesus of my faith is different and therefore null and void) and under the same mantle have behaved so. (Meaning that in a thread where members self ID of a particular faith or self ID as not of a particular faith, i.e. non-denonimational, yet absolutely fundamental Christians (Evangelicals) have conducted themselves in a manner contrary to their so called "teachings".


For example, I self ID'd as a member of the LDS church, so my caution and restraint in this thread under heated exchange with those in opposition as to not under represent or besmear the church, whereas everywhere else on the site, not requiring such decorum, I am far more "ME" and tend to speak with far less restraint.

 
Save your wow, your conduct in this thread is so reprehensible, your representation of your faith, of your God fails so miserably, you give Atheists their argument by your actions and words.  Your accusation of false witness against me, an attack on a Mormon used to smear all Mormons and the church itself for yet another one of your psychotic attacks on the LDS church speaks of what I have already come to know about you.


I don't dislike you because you chose to not be a Mormon, I dislike you because you're contemptible, deceitful, disgustingly mocking of my faith, my church, my temple practices and so on, but I absolutely dislike you, I will not fake concern for your immortal soul by claiming to love you while going to war with you, what I will do is tell you that I dislike you, I say so in plain sight, not bearing flowers or a kiss or dragging my doctrine in, on a personal level, I dislike you, you disgust me.  I am surprised that you have an account here, my college is surprised that other so called Christians have allowed this to continue or stood beside you and participated in the fray against us (LDS). I am *NOT* surprised, you are far from the first evangelicals I have experienced who act this very same way.


I don't need to attack your faith to demonstrate my contempt for you, I'll just tell you that I dislike you, it's so much simpler that way. Kind of like that if I were on a mission, I would not waste a book of Mormon on you, you would probably use it as a coaster to lay your beer on it.  I'd probably stand at the foot of your driveway and dust my shoes off on you, turn my back on you, walk away whilst whistling a tune.  As this thread dwindles down, and eventually, it will, so will your level of importance in any way shape or form in a conversation with me.  The impact you leave on me is you and those like you represent your faith, a faith that seems to be concerned with disliking US (Mormons).


Works for me..

 
From what the "Street Preacher"'s shirt contents, it looks as if he is going after missionaries, not the other way around like your propaganda as you spin it. So, yeah, WOW...


I am not surprised, this is what I have come to expect from "Fundamentalist Christians", or as I like to call them "Fundies". (A laughable way of saying "so called Christians" or "fake Christians".)