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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:59:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. With google, look it up yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. With google, look it up yourself. That's not how argumentation works. If you make an assertion, you provide specific citations to affirm your assertion. You know, evidence. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:03:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Under the golden rule, would you lord over anyone to begin with, if you would obviously not want that for yourself? That's the underpinning of the immorality of slavery, whether hard or soft. Being owned is, well, a shit position. Owning a person, even if for a duration, is coercion and force...and by most of my "no shit sherlock" moral/ethical leanings, wrong. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:10:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right on If we are going to condemn Christians for slavery, then what about the African tribes, Romans 2000 years ago, Greeks 2400 years ago, Egyptians 2000-3000 years ago, All Koreans, All Chinese, All Persians................get it? Edit: Oh yeah, one more. All southerners. We all know that every southerner in 1860 had slaves. Right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It would be incorrect to say that the church never spoke out against hereditary slavery. There was a period of time wherein many American churches did not, but trying to cast the actions of some congregations in one country during a brief window of time as indicative of a global faith spanning 2000 years would be inaccurate. Speaking specifically of that small sub-set of Christendom that you refer to, it's merely an example of cognitive dissonance and rationalization. I think one of the more popular views was that blacks were untermenschen and the white man had a divine obligation to subjugate and care for them. Right on If we are going to condemn Christians for slavery, then what about the African tribes, Romans 2000 years ago, Greeks 2400 years ago, Egyptians 2000-3000 years ago, All Koreans, All Chinese, All Persians................get it? Edit: Oh yeah, one more. All southerners. We all know that every southerner in 1860 had slaves. Right? But Christians have the "right" religion, not like all those people who're going to hell. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:11:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know, this was a pretty good thread until a few people decided to make this about how Christians suck - as if slavery were a uniquely Christian phenomena.  Paul's writings commanded masters to treat their servants (slaves) in a godly manner. He reminded them (Eph. 6:9) that the masters had a Master in Heaven and that He was a not respecter of persons (high or low positions). Paul was adamant that a master was to be just as his Master in Heaven was just and fair. (Col 4:1) |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:12:58 PM EDT
[#5]
It's easier to go with what's profitable and popular than rock the boat by living your convictions, religious or otherwise.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:22:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That "no shit sherlock" ethical position took thousands of years to filter into mainstream society, and Christianity was a big part, if not the big part, of that filtering. As I stated earlier, the ancient view of the world was very fatalistic. Your average pagan Roman would have said that if the gods did not want him to have slaves, why would they bless him with slaves? So it must be ethical to own slaves. It was a really radical proposition for Christianity to suggest that the fortunate in life were not more loved by the gods, and that they were in fact equal or even more righteous. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Under the golden rule, would you lord over anyone to begin with, if you would obviously not want that for yourself? That's the underpinning of the immorality of slavery, whether hard or soft. Being owned is, well, a shit position. Owning a person, even if for a duration, is coercion and force...and by most of my "no shit sherlock" moral/ethical leanings, wrong. I'm lucky, I suppose, because I've never really believed in god or thought even for a second that when people told me things like "god gives you gifts" or "god blessed you" that they were telling the truth. The lessons of "the golden rule", however, made sense to me on a deep, meaningful way...because I could imagine being owned would suck. So, why would I want to own someone? It made me appreciate sharing, giving, being nice because it would feel bad to be the person who was treated poorly. I guess in the ancient world, they just would have killed someone like me at an early age for not towing the line of sky-god-logic. Hence, that filtering probably took a long time when you were only cultivating a certain type of person (imagine the "hey, wait a minute guys" lifespan in the Taliban right now). I'm sure you'll not agree with that, but slavery just "feels" wrong, and it did from the first millisecond I heard about it. I wonder why that is? It wasn't because Christianity, I promise you. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:22:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Seems pretty clear that the bible has noting negative to say about slavery::
What the Bible says about Slavery Exodus 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant.... Exodus 21:7 If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant.... Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Exodus 22:3 If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. Leviticus 22:11 If the priest buy any soul with his money.... Leviticus 25:39 And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee.... Leviticus 25:44-46 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. 1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. Titus 2:9-10 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:29:17 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm lucky, I suppose, because I've never really believed in god or thought even for a second that when people told me things like "god gives you gifts" or "god blessed you" that they were telling the truth. The lessons of "the golden rule", however, made sense to me on a deep, meaningful way...because I could imagine being owned would suck. So, why would I want to own someone? It made me appreciate sharing, giving, being nice because it would feel bad to be the person who was treated poorly. I guess in the ancient world, they just would have killed someone like me at an early age for not towing the line of sky-god-logic. Hence, that filtering probably took a long time when you were only cultivating a certain type of person (imagine the "hey, wait a minute guys" lifespan in the Taliban right now). I'm sure you'll not agree with that, but slavery just "feels" wrong, and it did from the first millisecond I heard about it. I wonder why that is? It wasn't because Christianity, I promise you. That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:30:29 PM EDT
[#9]
Here's my take.
First, Christians are not to desire power over others, so Christians should not seek to purchase slaves. However, not everyone is a Christian as is evident to anyone who reads GD this thread. People who are not Christians cannot be expected to abide by Christian rules. Therefore, Paul taught that if you are a slave, serve your master as though you are serving Christ (Ephesians 6:5-8). On the other end of the equation, if you own slaves when you convert (i.e., you bought them while not a Christian), treat your slaves kindly because God sees no difference between master and slave--both are sinners in His eyes (Ephesians 6:9). Furthermore, if you own slaves when you convert and your slaves are Christians, treat them not as slaves but as brethren. In fact, if they escape, let them go and receive them as your brothers in Christ as Paul instructed Philemon to treat Onesimus (Philemon) Jesus did not say much about people owning other people because Christians are not to place their focus on or live their lives for things on this earth. Instead, they are to see everything in terms of the spiritual. When you do that, you understand that there is no difference between master and slave because both are sinful men in need of Christ (Galatians 3:28). Finally, we all serve something. Christians are to present themselves as servants to Christ, offering their reasonable service to Him as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1-2). In so doing, Christians are not slaves, but children and heirs (Galatians 4:6-7). In short, Christians are not to view the world in the same way as everyone else. We are to be separate--holy--and to see everything with respect to God and Christ. When we do that, our ideas on worldly things like slavery changes (and we will probably be ridiculed for it by those who still see things only in worldly terms). Hope that helps. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:33:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Lets talk about being Italian and reconciling the killing of Christians in the arena...
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:37:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm lucky, I suppose, because I've never really believed in god or thought even for a second that when people told me things like "god gives you gifts" or "god blessed you" that they were telling the truth. The lessons of "the golden rule", however, made sense to me on a deep, meaningful way...because I could imagine being owned would suck. So, why would I want to own someone? It made me appreciate sharing, giving, being nice because it would feel bad to be the person who was treated poorly. I guess in the ancient world, they just would have killed someone like me at an early age for not towing the line of sky-god-logic. Hence, that filtering probably took a long time when you were only cultivating a certain type of person (imagine the "hey, wait a minute guys" lifespan in the Taliban right now). I'm sure you'll not agree with that, but slavery just "feels" wrong, and it did from the first millisecond I heard about it. I wonder why that is? It wasn't because Christianity, I promise you. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:37:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's easier to go with what's profitable and popular than rock the boat by living your convictions, religious or otherwise. I think this plays are huge role in why we had slavery in the US. People in general won't rock the boat. It is accepted slowly in society until it becomes the new norm. And 99% of the people don't take a stand. An interesting twist to this; is that while the founders were writing and signing the documents that declared "all men are created equal", and established a new country where all could come to escape persecution.... They also owned slaves! How can they do these things at the same time if they truly believed the words they were writing? As a Christian I have no justification for owning slaves, and why our founders did. And as an American that believes in the constitution, I also have no justification for their actions. I have to ask them on the other side. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:39:38 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets talk about being Italian and reconciling the killing of Christians in the arena... The decline of the munus was a far from straightforward process. The crisis of the 3rd century imposed increasing military demands on the imperial purse, from which the Roman Empire never quite recovered, and lesser magistrates found the obligatory munera an increasingly unrewarding tax on the doubtful privileges of office. Still, emperors continued to subsidize the games as a matter of undiminished public interest. In the early 3rd century AD, the Christian writer Tertullian had acknowledged their power over the Christian flock, and was compelled to be blunt: the combats were murder, their witnessing spiritually and morally harmful and the gladiator an instrument of pagan human sacrifice. In the next century, Augustine deplored the youthful fascination of his friend (and later fellow-convert and Bishop) Alypius, with the munera spectacle as inimical to a Christian life and salvation. Amphitheatres continued to host the spectacular administration of Imperial justice: in 315 Constantine I condemned child-snatchers ad bestias in the arena. Ten years later, he banned the gladiator munera: In times in which peace and peace relating to domestic affairs prevail bloody demonstrations displease us. Therefore, we order that there may be no more gladiator combats. Those who were condemned to become gladiators for their crimes are to work from now on in the mines. Thus they pay for their crimes without having to pour their blood In 393, Theodosius (r. 379–395) adopted Nicene Christianity as the state church of the Roman Empire and banned pagan festivals. The ludi continued, very gradually shorn of their stubbornly pagan munera. Honorius (r. 395–423) legally ended munera in 399, and again in 404, at least in the Western half of the Empire according to Theodoret, because of the martyrdom of Saint Telemachus by spectators at a munus. Valentinian III (r. 425–455) repeated the ban in 438, perhaps effectively, though venationes continued beyond 536. By this time, the popularity of munera had waned, unlike the theatrical shows, and the chariot races which, at least in the Eastern Empire, continued to attract the crowds, and a generous Imperial subsidy.An imperially sanctioned munus at some time in the 330s suggests that yet again, imperial legislation to curb the games proved ineffective, not least when Constantine defied his own law. In 365, Valentinian I (r. 364–375) threatened to fine a judge who sentenced Christians to the arena and in 384 he attempted, like most of his predecessors, to limit the expenses of munera. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:43:26 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm lucky, I suppose, because I've never really believed in god or thought even for a second that when people told me things like "god gives you gifts" or "god blessed you" that they were telling the truth. The lessons of "the golden rule", however, made sense to me on a deep, meaningful way...because I could imagine being owned would suck. So, why would I want to own someone? It made me appreciate sharing, giving, being nice because it would feel bad to be the person who was treated poorly. I guess in the ancient world, they just would have killed someone like me at an early age for not towing the line of sky-god-logic. Hence, that filtering probably took a long time when you were only cultivating a certain type of person (imagine the "hey, wait a minute guys" lifespan in the Taliban right now). I'm sure you'll not agree with that, but slavery just "feels" wrong, and it did from the first millisecond I heard about it. I wonder why that is? It wasn't because Christianity, I promise you. That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. Christians benefit from growing up in a society based on secular/religious "moderate" values. It wasn't that long ago that Christianity literally was comparable to ISIS (see the Dark Ages and the age where atheists could be beheaded for apostasy/heresy). |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:45:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems pretty clear that the bible has noting negative to say about slavery:: What the Bible says about Slavery Exodus 21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant.... Exodus 21:7 If a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant.... Exodus 21:20-21 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money. Exodus 22:3 If he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. Leviticus 22:11 If the priest buy any soul with his money.... Leviticus 25:39 And if thy brother that dwelleth by thee be waxen poor, and be sold unto thee.... Leviticus 25:44-46 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever. Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ. Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God. 1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. Titus 2:9-10 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again; Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. 1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. It makes it pretty easy to spin, and for people to accept. People in modern times often cite the bible as a code to live by in current times, it would stand that the same would have been done to support slavery (like it or not). |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:48:05 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Christians benefit from growing up in a society based on secular/religious "moderate" values. The Dark Ages and the age where atheists could be beheaded for apostasy/heresy wasn't that long ago. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm lucky, I suppose, because I've never really believed in god or thought even for a second that when people told me things like "god gives you gifts" or "god blessed you" that they were telling the truth. The lessons of "the golden rule", however, made sense to me on a deep, meaningful way...because I could imagine being owned would suck. So, why would I want to own someone? It made me appreciate sharing, giving, being nice because it would feel bad to be the person who was treated poorly. I guess in the ancient world, they just would have killed someone like me at an early age for not towing the line of sky-god-logic. Hence, that filtering probably took a long time when you were only cultivating a certain type of person (imagine the "hey, wait a minute guys" lifespan in the Taliban right now). I'm sure you'll not agree with that, but slavery just "feels" wrong, and it did from the first millisecond I heard about it. I wonder why that is? It wasn't because Christianity, I promise you. That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. Christians benefit from growing up in a society based on secular/religious "moderate" values. The Dark Ages and the age where atheists could be beheaded for apostasy/heresy wasn't that long ago. That is also true. Please do note that I didn't claim that we are all happy campers solely because of the awesomeness of Christians. Of course progress in - heck I dunno what to call it - humanity? made a huge difference. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:55:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Funny, you quote a verse from the Hebrew Bible regarding a thread about Christians. You sir, do not understand Christianity. hint.... Jesus Christ hadn't been born when that verse was written. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Exodus 11:5, God didn't even care about the slaves of Egypt's first borns....wiped 'em right out. I mean, damn, talk about a pissed off God. Anywho, I'd guess if you gave that some serious thought it might make it ok to keep one around for some farm work. Hey, at least I'm not killing the dude's kids. Funny, you quote a verse from the Hebrew Bible regarding a thread about Christians. You sir, do not understand Christianity. hint.... Jesus Christ hadn't been born when that verse was written. Bullshit. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:58:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many don't get that. They will drag OT into Christianity to justify whatever Bullshit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Exodus 11:5, God didn't even care about the slaves of Egypt's first borns....wiped 'em right out. I mean, damn, talk about a pissed off God. Anywho, I'd guess if you gave that some serious thought it might make it ok to keep one around for some farm work. Hey, at least I'm not killing the dude's kids. Funny, you quote a verse from the Hebrew Bible regarding a thread about Christians. You sir, do not understand Christianity. hint.... Jesus Christ hadn't been born when that verse was written. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:07:08 PM EDT
[#19]
The most scholarly article that comes to mind is contained in Thomas Sowell's Book, Race and Culture. Chapter 7, Race and Slavery, goes into the history of slavery world-wide in great detail, along with the gradual destruction of it as an accepted institution. It's been a while since I read it, but it is worth the read if you want some in-depth background without the usual ax grinding.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:09:16 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm lucky, I suppose, because I've never really believed in god or thought even for a second that when people told me things like "god gives you gifts" or "god blessed you" that they were telling the truth. The lessons of "the golden rule", however, made sense to me on a deep, meaningful way...because I could imagine being owned would suck. So, why would I want to own someone? It made me appreciate sharing, giving, being nice because it would feel bad to be the person who was treated poorly. I guess in the ancient world, they just would have killed someone like me at an early age for not towing the line of sky-god-logic. Hence, that filtering probably took a long time when you were only cultivating a certain type of person (imagine the "hey, wait a minute guys" lifespan in the Taliban right now). I'm sure you'll not agree with that, but slavery just "feels" wrong, and it did from the first millisecond I heard about it. I wonder why that is? It wasn't because Christianity, I promise you. That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. No, in fact, I think many people are born inquisitive and hypervigilant sense of what's going on. Not all, some, and I do think I'm lucky to have been born that way. It was certainly not cultivated or taught, I had to fight my surroundings to express that personality. Some people are just inherently more empathetic and observant than others, just as some kids are just little mean rat fucks and others are kind of sweethearts even in the same loving family - and kids born that way that develop an innate and natural sense of right and wrong...because unless your parents are sadists, it has a logic to it. I think those people have existed throughout history, and were probably terrified of speaking out under fear of death or being shunned/driven off, or just killed. In a good society, those people have influence and exert social muscle. In the Taliban, they get beat or killed. I think history is more ripe with the stories of those unreasonable people than you're willing to acknowledge. If you insist on insulting me and making it personal, then go right ahead. I'm not a good person because of atheism, you're not a good guy because of Christianity...I think there's a whole shit ton more to morality and basic human kindness than something so simple and binary...and I think some things are obvious to most people because of ingrained, hard-wired human characteristics. Or, just call me a poopyhead. You wanted a discussion, now apparently only if I say what you want to hear. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:12:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That "no shit sherlock" ethical position took thousands of years to filter into mainstream society, and Christianity was a big part, if not the big part, of that filtering. As I stated earlier, the ancient view of the world was very fatalistic. Your average pagan Roman would have said that if the gods did not want him to have slaves, why would they bless him with slaves? So it must be ethical to own slaves. It was a really radical proposition for Christianity to suggest that the fortunate in life were not more loved by the gods, and that they were in fact equal or even more righteous. Christianity hasn't made that streak of fatalism go away. Millions of Christians believe that America was at its best when it particularly blessed by God, and now that we have turned our back on Him, God has withdrawn his special favors, which we could yet again reclaim if we as a nation were to bring god to the center of our lives. In other words, Christians still associate prosperity or the prospect of success with rewards for having been found pleasing in the sight of God. Essentially, all nations still have their version of "when we are a godly people, then our women are a little more virtuous, our armies a little stronger, the politicians a little more honest, and the land a little more blessed by God", and on the other side of the coin, when we meet with defeat and undoing we fall upon the thinking of "our sins must have been great for god to visit this punishment upon us." This isn't an attack or argument for or against Christianity. I'm just describing a human trait, a persistent 'bronze age' attitude. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:12:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's kind of the whole topic though, right? The mechanisms by which slavery was green lit which Christians? True. I've found statements by the early church fathers that basically reveal slavery as being an institution that no one can think of NOT being there. It was just part of life. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that Christianity as a whole should have righted that wrong sooner than the 1860s. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:16:08 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True. I've found statements by the early church fathers that basically reveal slavery as being an institution that no one can think of NOT being there. It was just part of life. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that Christianity as a whole should have righted that wrong sooner than the 1860s. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's kind of the whole topic though, right? The mechanisms by which slavery was green lit which Christians? True. I've found statements by the early church fathers that basically reveal slavery as being an institution that no one can think of NOT being there. It was just part of life. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that Christianity as a whole should have righted that wrong sooner than the 1860s. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:23:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, in fact, I think many people are born inquisitive and hypervigilant sense of what's going on. Not all, some, and I do think I'm lucky to have been born that way. It was certainly not cultivated or taught, I had to fight my surroundings to express that personality. Some people are just inherently more empathetic and observant than others, just as some kids are just little mean rat fucks and others are kind of sweethearts even in the same loving family - and kids born that way that develop an innate and natural sense of right and wrong...because unless your parents are sadists, it has a logic to it. I think those people have existed throughout history, and were probably terrified of speaking out under fear of death or being shunned/driven off, or just killed. In a good society, those people have influence and exert social muscle. In the Taliban, they get beat or killed. I think history is more ripe with the stories of those unreasonable people than you're willing to acknowledge. If you insist on insulting me and making it personal, then go right ahead. I'm not a good person because of atheism, you're not a good guy because of Christianity...I think there's a whole shit ton more to morality and basic human kindness than something so simple and binary...and I think some things are obvious to most people because of ingrained, hard-wired human characteristics. Or, just call me a poopyhead. You wanted a discussion, now apparently only if I say what you want to hear. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's a real easy statement to throw out there being that you were born in today's world. It takes a special kind of rose-colored glasses to assume you would have developed that incredible sense of justice had you been born in a much earlier period. And yeah - you DO benefit from growing up in a society which is based on Judeo-Christian values (instead of growing up in, say, rural Pakistan). Yeah, yeah, I know: Deluded people believing in their sky fairy aren't gonna tell YOU what an awesome pillar of virtue you are. Because atheism. No, in fact, I think many people are born inquisitive and hypervigilant sense of what's going on. Not all, some, and I do think I'm lucky to have been born that way. It was certainly not cultivated or taught, I had to fight my surroundings to express that personality. Some people are just inherently more empathetic and observant than others, just as some kids are just little mean rat fucks and others are kind of sweethearts even in the same loving family - and kids born that way that develop an innate and natural sense of right and wrong...because unless your parents are sadists, it has a logic to it. I think those people have existed throughout history, and were probably terrified of speaking out under fear of death or being shunned/driven off, or just killed. In a good society, those people have influence and exert social muscle. In the Taliban, they get beat or killed. I think history is more ripe with the stories of those unreasonable people than you're willing to acknowledge. If you insist on insulting me and making it personal, then go right ahead. I'm not a good person because of atheism, you're not a good guy because of Christianity...I think there's a whole shit ton more to morality and basic human kindness than something so simple and binary...and I think some things are obvious to most people because of ingrained, hard-wired human characteristics. Or, just call me a poopyhead. You wanted a discussion, now apparently only if I say what you want to hear. I don't disagree with you that there are people who stand up among the lions and suffer the consequences. How numerous are they? I don't know. I merely commented on the fact that you consider yourself one of them. Hey - maybe you are. Granted, I also feel like I'm born with a serious inquisitiveness and hypervigilance. Look - I am from Germany. I would like to think that I would have been a special kind of snowflake that would have grown up in the 1930's and be all self-righteous. Then I see movies like some of Leni Riefenstahl's and other propaganda films, and I *know* that I would have been part of that. Those kids in the Hitler Youth were cool. They were going camping, they were shooting guns, there was camaraderie; they were just awesome. I probably would have been seduced just like most of the other kids. I don't recall me trying to attack you personally or wanting to call you a poopyhead. You're a smart person and I value many of your posts. I'm also not trying to be the poor little Christian that cries just because an atheist was mean to him; it does get kind of old to have a few people parade out just how us Christians are so full of it though and by implication how atheists are oh-so enlightened in comparison. Please take that into consideration. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:33:14 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Christianity hasn't made that streak of fatalism go away. Millions of Christians believe that America was at its best when it particularly blessed by God, and now that we have turned our back on Him, God has withdrawn his special favors, which we could yet again reclaim if we as a nation were to bring god to the center of our lives. In other words, Christians still associate prosperity or the prospect of success with rewards for having been found pleasing in the sight of God. Essentially, all nations still have their version of "when we are a godly people, then our women are a little more virtuous, our armies a little stronger, the politicians a little more honest, and the land a little more blessed by God", and on the other side of the coin, when we meet with defeat and undoing we fall upon the thinking of "our sins must have been great for god to visit this punishment upon us." This isn't an attack or argument for or against Christianity. I'm just describing a human trait, a persistent 'bronze age' attitude. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That "no shit sherlock" ethical position took thousands of years to filter into mainstream society, and Christianity was a big part, if not the big part, of that filtering. As I stated earlier, the ancient view of the world was very fatalistic. Your average pagan Roman would have said that if the gods did not want him to have slaves, why would they bless him with slaves? So it must be ethical to own slaves. It was a really radical proposition for Christianity to suggest that the fortunate in life were not more loved by the gods, and that they were in fact equal or even more righteous. Christianity hasn't made that streak of fatalism go away. Millions of Christians believe that America was at its best when it particularly blessed by God, and now that we have turned our back on Him, God has withdrawn his special favors, which we could yet again reclaim if we as a nation were to bring god to the center of our lives. In other words, Christians still associate prosperity or the prospect of success with rewards for having been found pleasing in the sight of God. Essentially, all nations still have their version of "when we are a godly people, then our women are a little more virtuous, our armies a little stronger, the politicians a little more honest, and the land a little more blessed by God", and on the other side of the coin, when we meet with defeat and undoing we fall upon the thinking of "our sins must have been great for god to visit this punishment upon us." This isn't an attack or argument for or against Christianity. I'm just describing a human trait, a persistent 'bronze age' attitude. And, even within the Christian religion, in the most conservative and rigid communities, there were always objectors. There were advocates who saw the treatment of the native peoples as barbaric and wrong, people who against their predominant culture were abolitionists, often fighting that pressure from within their own families and communities. To some people throughout every period in human history, no matter the social dogma or cultural tidal wave of "normal", the things going on that harmed or oppressed another people were just fucking wrong - and they felt it right in their chest. Inexplicably, in spite of the normalcy of things or the justifications, they just knew it. Given the right conditions, those people change societies....and I truly believe that what they are exerting is pure, unfiltered, untaught human empathy and the natural "golden rule". I think some people feel wrongs like a heavy weight in their chest, and others barely feel it, but I think most humans have an implicit sense of decency because it would have been really fucking hard to construct societies if everyone was utterly self-serving unless given perfect conditions to teach it. The ability of people to construct justifications for shitty deeds is something, but those justifications are a defense mechanism against the pangs of knowing what you're doing isn't right. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:38:36 PM EDT
[#26]
A Southern Christian View of Slavery, 1861
Now, we venture to assert that if men had drawn their conclusions upon this subject only from the Bible, it would no more have entered into any human head to denounce slavery as a sin than to denounce monarchy, aristocracy, or poverty. The truth is, men have listened to what they falsely considered as primitive intuitions, or as necessary deductions from primitive cognitions, and then have gone to the Bible to confirm their crotchets of their vain philosophy. They have gone there determined to find a particular result, and the consequence is that they leave with having made, instead of having interpreted, Scripture. Slavery is no new thing. It has not only existed for aged in the world but it has existed, under every dispensation of the covenant of grace, in the
Church of God. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:59:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Edit: double post
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Posted: 7/6/2015 11:01:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly, debt slaves makes more slaves than our current welfare system. It is very much the same as our current welfare system - but they had to work to get their meals paid for. What a concept!!! |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 11:14:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Non Hebrew slaves were usually persons who sold themseves, or were sold, into slavery because of debt. Another source of non Hebrew slaves, and young female
slaves in particular(Numbers 31:18), was captivity in war. Non Hebrew slaves were considered movable property that could be inherited by the sons of the Hebrew master "as a posession forever"(Leviticus 25:46). From Civilizations of the Ancient Near East |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 11:47:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you were the head of a kind, loving household, and you knew that by buying and owning a slave family you could keep them all together and keep them "safe" from a cruel master, what could we say then? Would you be evil or charitable by becoming a slave master? Of course, you could buy them from a slave master and then set them free. There were many free blacks in the USA during the pre-Civil Ware era. Also, not all slaves were black; were not and are not. Slavery is alive and well in this corrupt world we live in. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 1:41:00 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Christianity hasn't made that streak of fatalism go away. Millions of Christians believe that America was at its best when it particularly blessed by God, and now that we have turned our back on Him, God has withdrawn his special favors, which we could yet again reclaim if we as a nation were to bring god to the center of our lives. In other words, Christians still associate prosperity or the prospect of success with rewards for having been found pleasing in the sight of God. Essentially, all nations still have their version of "when we are a godly people, then our women are a little more virtuous, our armies a little stronger, the politicians a little more honest, and the land a little more blessed by God", and on the other side of the coin, when we meet with defeat and undoing we fall upon the thinking of "our sins must have been great for god to visit this punishment upon us." This isn't an attack or argument for or against Christianity. I'm just describing a human trait, a persistent 'bronze age' attitude. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That "no shit sherlock" ethical position took thousands of years to filter into mainstream society, and Christianity was a big part, if not the big part, of that filtering. As I stated earlier, the ancient view of the world was very fatalistic. Your average pagan Roman would have said that if the gods did not want him to have slaves, why would they bless him with slaves? So it must be ethical to own slaves. It was a really radical proposition for Christianity to suggest that the fortunate in life were not more loved by the gods, and that they were in fact equal or even more righteous. Christianity hasn't made that streak of fatalism go away. Millions of Christians believe that America was at its best when it particularly blessed by God, and now that we have turned our back on Him, God has withdrawn his special favors, which we could yet again reclaim if we as a nation were to bring god to the center of our lives. In other words, Christians still associate prosperity or the prospect of success with rewards for having been found pleasing in the sight of God. Essentially, all nations still have their version of "when we are a godly people, then our women are a little more virtuous, our armies a little stronger, the politicians a little more honest, and the land a little more blessed by God", and on the other side of the coin, when we meet with defeat and undoing we fall upon the thinking of "our sins must have been great for god to visit this punishment upon us." This isn't an attack or argument for or against Christianity. I'm just describing a human trait, a persistent 'bronze age' attitude. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 1:44:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think some people feel wrongs like a heavy weight in their chest, and others barely feel it, but I think most humans have an implicit sense of decency because it would have been really fucking hard to construct societies if everyone was utterly self-serving unless given perfect conditions to teach it. The ability of people to construct justifications for shitty deeds is something, but those justifications are a defense mechanism against the pangs of knowing what you're doing isn't right. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 4:40:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What you are describing is Natural Law, and I agree wholeheartedly. But I think that religions can either stymie or fan those flames, and I give Christianity a lot of credit in fanning those flames in Western Civilization. The three pillars of our society are Rome, Athens, and Jerusalem. Nietzsche derisively called Christianity "Platonism for the people." But that was its genius. The best ideas of Greek philosophy distilled in a package the average person could comprehend. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think some people feel wrongs like a heavy weight in their chest, and others barely feel it, but I think most humans have an implicit sense of decency because it would have been really fucking hard to construct societies if everyone was utterly self-serving unless given perfect conditions to teach it. The ability of people to construct justifications for shitty deeds is something, but those justifications are a defense mechanism against the pangs of knowing what you're doing isn't right. bullshit. This is a learned behavior. Societies were constructed because leaders used fear (and slaves) to build them. The fear of god (or, if you prefer god-fearing) made the work easier. Anyone or anything that trusts to the "implicit sense of decency" is going to fail. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 9:41:34 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's kind of the whole topic though, right? The mechanisms by which slavery was green lit which Christians? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Exodus 11:5, God didn't even care about the slaves of Egypt's first borns....wiped 'em right out. I mean, damn, talk about a pissed off God. Anywho, I'd guess if you gave that some serious thought it might make it ok to keep one around for some farm work. Hey, at least I'm not killing the dude's kids. Funny, you quote a verse from the Hebrew Bible regarding a thread about Christians. You sir, do not understand Christianity. hint.... Jesus Christ hadn't been born when that verse was written. I'm not saying some Christians didn't approve slavery or that they didn't use scripture to approve it. But they weren't following Jesus Christ's teachings by doing so. You can justify a lot of crazy stuff from the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), but Christians didn't exist until after Jesus Christ showed up and the New Testament was written. I think even some Christians don't realize that Christianity wasn't even a thing until after Jesus Christ showed up. It's an easy folly to make since Christians use the Bible, which normally includes the Old Testament. But that's not to say there aren't important lessons, stories, and guidance that can be taken from the Old Testament. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 9:47:03 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With what capability? It was more permissible by the Church longer than it was not. Cultures don't change quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's kind of the whole topic though, right? The mechanisms by which slavery was green lit which Christians? True. I've found statements by the early church fathers that basically reveal slavery as being an institution that no one can think of NOT being there. It was just part of life. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that Christianity as a whole should have righted that wrong sooner than the 1860s. You can say the same about murdering unborns. It's prevalent right now and even some Christians do it and are okay with it. I'm sure there are even some twisted churches out there that are okay with it. But that doesn't mean it's right or that it follows true Christianity. The sooner you realize that all humans, including Christians, are prone to sin and do sin, the sooner you'll understand what Christianity is all about. It doesn't make a Christian a hypocrite, it just means he/she is human. The difference is that to walk in Jesus' footsteps, and to accept Him as your Savior, you'll have a longing to do right and to help others do right. It doesn't mean you won't fail in doing so. The Devil likes to attack believers, harder than he attacks non-believers. Which makes sense, because you don't fight over what is already won. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 9:52:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone or anything that trusts to the "implicit sense of decency" is going to fail. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 9:56:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I actually don't think we're too far apart. I think there is a natural impulse to see the suffering of another human being and recoil in horror. That being said, history has shown that we can repress that impulse in a myriad of ways. I would in no way suggest that society simply rely on that impulse, but I do think it is there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anyone or anything that trusts to the "implicit sense of decency" is going to fail. I cant make it any clearer. You are wrong. If you arent in the monkeysphere any give a shit is a completely learned behavoir Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 9:59:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What you are describing is Natural Law, and I agree wholeheartedly. But I think that religions can either stymie or fan those flames, and I give Christianity a lot of credit in fanning those flames in Western Civilization. The three pillars of our society are Rome, Athens, and Jerusalem. Nietzsche derisively called Christianity "Platonism for the people." But that was its genius. The best ideas of Greek philosophy distilled in a package the average person could comprehend. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think some people feel wrongs like a heavy weight in their chest, and others barely feel it, but I think most humans have an implicit sense of decency because it would have been really fucking hard to construct societies if everyone was utterly self-serving unless given perfect conditions to teach it. The ability of people to construct justifications for shitty deeds is something, but those justifications are a defense mechanism against the pangs of knowing what you're doing isn't right. I agree, I'm not arguing against Christianity's influence (overall) in this thread. Not in the slightest. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:02:18 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can say the same about murdering unborns. It's prevalent right now and even some Christians do it and are okay with it. I'm sure there are even some twisted churches out there that are okay with it. But that doesn't mean it's right or that it follows true Christianity. The sooner you realize that all humans, including Christians, are prone to sin and do sin, the sooner you'll understand what Christianity is all about. It doesn't make a Christian a hypocrite, it just means he/she is human. The difference is that to walk in Jesus' footsteps, and to accept Him as your Savior, you'll have a longing to do right and to help others do right. It doesn't mean you won't fail in doing so. The Devil likes to attack believers, harder than he attacks non-believers. Which makes sense, because you don't fight over what is already won. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's kind of the whole topic though, right? The mechanisms by which slavery was green lit which Christians? True. I've found statements by the early church fathers that basically reveal slavery as being an institution that no one can think of NOT being there. It was just part of life. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that Christianity as a whole should have righted that wrong sooner than the 1860s. You can say the same about murdering unborns. It's prevalent right now and even some Christians do it and are okay with it. I'm sure there are even some twisted churches out there that are okay with it. But that doesn't mean it's right or that it follows true Christianity. The sooner you realize that all humans, including Christians, are prone to sin and do sin, the sooner you'll understand what Christianity is all about. It doesn't make a Christian a hypocrite, it just means he/she is human. The difference is that to walk in Jesus' footsteps, and to accept Him as your Savior, you'll have a longing to do right and to help others do right. It doesn't mean you won't fail in doing so. The Devil likes to attack believers, harder than he attacks non-believers. Which makes sense, because you don't fight over what is already won. Doesn't mean it lines up with history. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:12:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone or anything that trusts to the "implicit sense of decency" is going to fail. Who said anything about trusting? I don't trust society to work on an implicit sense of decency. I don't think any was ever formed that was built solely upon that. All I've suggested is that most healthy people understand, deep down in their psyche, that something like slavery is wrong...or rape is wrong, or theft is wrong. They may be taught or conditioned to feel that less, and they may rationalize or justify it to themselves, but they FEEL it down deep in their psyche. Read about the Nazi execution squads during WWII and what it did to the men early in the purge of the Jews who just mowed them down with bullets. It broke them, and not because they had warm and fuzzies about the Jews. That part of their humanity they can't control still bubbled up and wrecked their ability to function because killing non-stop for an otherwise healthy human being was psychological trauma. It's an extreme example, but I truly believe that a good portion of people instinctively know that acts done to others that feel bad to themselves is wrong. It is the linchpin of all laws, of all order, of all basic human interaction and agreements that mold societies. And, let's not forget that while you're foaming about Christian societies, western societies and believing (wrongly) that Christianity is the only glue that works, there have been groups of people in remote jungles living together for hundreds of thousands of years. They have all the same problems we do, all the same instincts, yet they formed communities, laws, had children, families, thrived and struggled, lived and died just like we did. They did this all without the Bible or Aristotle or Jung, but somehow basic human "golden rule" interplay functioned for them....well, that and the same thing that ultimately binds all societies - laws and a shared benefit of cooperation. I'm sure your blood pressure is already 12% higher formulating an impassioned response why I'm bad and wrong, but let me ask you again, is the only reason you don't rape someone right now that you're sexually attracted to because someone taught you Biblical reasons that act is wrong? Don't you just FEEL it? I do. It would feel awful to force a woman to have sex, to make her afraid or cry, to have to hold someone against their will. I didn't get taught that, no one ever sat me down and said "swingset, don't rape girls"...but somehow I didn't need to learn it. Did you? Is all that keeps you in check the law or the Bible? Don't you have anything in you that's instinctive about right and wrong? If you say yes, then you're agreeing with me. If no, then you might be a little bit of a monster. Your call. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:14:52 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I cant make it any clearer. You are wrong. If you arent in the monkeysphere any give a shit is a completely learned behavoir Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anyone or anything that trusts to the "implicit sense of decency" is going to fail. I cant make it any clearer. You are wrong. If you arent in the monkeysphere any give a shit is a completely learned behavoir Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:18:45 AM EDT
[#42]
These people used to believe that slaves werent people, they were property.
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:27:52 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then why does it take so much effort to teach men to overcome their desire not to kill? The Romans first instituted gladatorial contests to break down the natural revulsion to murder. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anyone or anything that trusts to the "implicit sense of decency" is going to fail. I cant make it any clearer. You are wrong. If you arent in the monkeysphere any give a shit is a completely learned behavoir Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile  yea, it doesn't take that much effort at all. In fact, it's more about reminding people that there's nothing wrong with it countering a lot of the BS peaceful society "it's wrong" mentality. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:32:34 AM EDT
[#44]
Here is another interesting data point - from Uncle Tom's Cabin as I'm continuing to read it:
"Well," Eliza said mournfully, "I always thought I must obey my master and mistress, or I couldn't be a Christian." So even the slaves, being Christian themselves, lived with the idea that their stature was natural in a manner of speaking. This is very difficult to wrap your head around living in today's society. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:34:04 AM EDT
[#45]
 Relevant to the discussion. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:35:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can say the same about murdering unborns. It's prevalent right now and even some Christians do it and are okay with it. I'm sure there are even some twisted churches out there that are okay with it. But that doesn't mean it's right or that it follows true Christianity. The sooner you realize that all humans, including Christians, are prone to sin and do sin, the sooner you'll understand what Christianity is all about. It doesn't make a Christian a hypocrite, it just means he/she is human. The difference is that to walk in Jesus' footsteps, and to accept Him as your Savior, you'll have a longing to do right and to help others do right. It doesn't mean you won't fail in doing so. The Devil likes to attack believers, harder than he attacks non-believers. Which makes sense, because you don't fight over what is already won. I used to believe this. But upon sincere reflection and inquiry I came to the conclusion that the ONLY thing that makes Christians behave differently at all is simple peer pressure. It's not some higher power that helps anyone follow the teachings. It isn't possible for billions of people through the millennia since Pentecost to participate in something like slavery or abortion or the litany of other "acceptable" sins if there is really a longing to do right. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:37:38 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is another interesting data point - from Uncle Tom's Cabin as I'm continuing to read it: "Well," Eliza said mournfully, "I always thought I must obey my master and mistress, or I couldn't be a Christian." So even the slaves, being Christian themselves, lived with the idea that their stature was natural in a manner of speaking. This is very difficult to wrap your head around living in today's society. And, that passage was meant to point out the wrongness of slavery, to shine contempt onto the mechanism by which people manipulated the slaves through a sense of morality about being property. I'm sure it wasn't universal, btw, and that's a piece of fiction not a census. At the time of that writing, our society was very divided about the nature of society...so even then a great many people "got it"...probably including slaves. I'm sure as many fled for the North, they weren't congratulating themselves on being a natural Christian piece of property. I could go on... |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:44:07 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And, that passage was meant to point out the wrongness of slavery, to shine contempt onto the mechanism by which people manipulated the slaves through a sense of morality about being property. I'm sure it wasn't universal, btw, and that's a piece of fiction not a census. At the time of that writing, our society was very divided about the nature of society...so even then a great many people "got it"...probably including slaves. I'm sure as many fled for the North, they weren't congratulating themselves on being a natural Christian piece of property. I could go on... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here is another interesting data point - from Uncle Tom's Cabin as I'm continuing to read it: "Well," Eliza said mournfully, "I always thought I must obey my master and mistress, or I couldn't be a Christian." So even the slaves, being Christian themselves, lived with the idea that their stature was natural in a manner of speaking. This is very difficult to wrap your head around living in today's society. And, that passage was meant to point out the wrongness of slavery, to shine contempt onto the mechanism by which people manipulated the slaves through a sense of morality about being property. I'm sure it wasn't universal, btw, and that's a piece of fiction not a census. At the time of that writing, our society was very divided about the nature of society...so even then a great many people "got it"...probably including slaves. I'm sure as many fled for the North, they weren't congratulating themselves on being a natural Christian piece of property. I could go on... Obviously it was fiction, but the fact that it was included meant that some people did feel that way. I did not mean to claim it was a universal feeling. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:48:26 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There have been some good replies in this post - thanks. It is something that has always bothered me, thinking "How can you reconcile the love for neighbor with the ruthless enslavement of a person?" There are only few answers that really lend themselves to this situation, and the one that I keep coming back to is a favorite of humanity from throughout history: You simply don't think of them as truly human. When you take that step, atrocities become much easier to justify. The Jews in Germany is a prime example of this, as are most atrocities committed by one people against another throughout history. I think there is plenty of written evidence to somewhat justify this position, as several noted philosophers have written about the fact that blacks can never attain the same noble standing as the white man, can't aspire to his level of culture, intelligence, etc. H.L. Mencken wrote as recently as 1910: " "I admit freely enough that, by careful breeding, supervision of environment and education, extending over many generations, it might be possible to make an appreciable improvement in the stock of the American negro, for example, but I must maintain that this enterprise would be a ridiculous waste of energy, for there is a high-caste white stock ready at hand, and it is inconceivable that the negro stock, however carefully it might be nurtured, could ever even remotely approach it. The educated negro of today is a failure, not because he meets insuperable difficulties in life, but because he is a negro. He is, in brief, a low-caste man, to the manner born, and he will remain inert and inefficient until fifty generations of him have lived in civilization. And even then, the superior white race will be fifty generations ahead of him." I'm reading Uncle Tom's Cabin right now, and that basic thinking comes up on the first few pages already. From my studies at college and from reading first hand accounts, white slaveholders saw slavery, in its most benign form, as their duty as Christians to prepare Africans for Christianity and the day when slavery would end. In its worst, Christian masters saw the bible where it pointed out that slavery was an accepted part of life. Often blacks were seen as the Indians had been, as a people not ready for the trappings and goings on of modern society...yet. Because that is the key word, yet. From Thomas Jefferson to Stonewall Jackson, the idea that one day slaves would be ready for their freedom was coming. But for reasons ranging from political to moral to economic, that day never arrived. Was it self justification? Probably. Does being slaveholders bar them from being good Christians? I would say absolutely not. Does raping their slaves or beating their slaves make a slave holder evil? Yes. You have to understand the era this took place. What we now see as abhorrent, they saw slavery as a necessary evil, perhaps even as a benevolent institution. And most Christian churches in the South agreed and even the more conservative churches in the North felt at least a little bit that way too. It was the more liberal churches in the North that were stark abolitionists. The very same audience of Christians today who are the most progressive on homosexuality and abortion in the Christian church. It was the war and Lincoln's Emmancipation proclamation that solidified Northern churches into the anti-slavery column. And the war moved even the more liberal Southern churches into the pro-Southern/pro-slavery column as well. And if you want to read a great book on the antebellum South and slavery, you should read A Consuming Fire by Edmund Genovese. He is considered the expert in the study of American slavery. Also a very interesting man, who became a full blown Marxist and eventually a strong Conservative. He is the source used when I studied the Civil War at the collegiate level. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 10:55:00 AM EDT
[#50]
I love it when people try to compare their values to those who lived 100, 200 or even a 1000 years ago.
I've not met a single person who said it would be ok to own another person. |
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