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Posted: 7/3/2015 3:54:22 AM EDT

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fort-sumter-nixes-all-confederate-flags-makes-decision-sans-historian/article/2567521?utm_campaign=Fox%20News&utm_source=foxnews.com&utm_medium=feed


The flags of the Confederacy that flew high over Fort Sumter, the site where the first shots of the Civil War were fired, have been taken down from the historic site.

The decision to remove the flags came from a directive by National Park Service Director Jonathan Jarvis in Washington, D.C. which reads: "Confederate flags shall not be flown in units of the National Park system and related sites with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historic context. ... All superintendents and program managers should evaluate how Confederate flags are used ... and remove the flags where appropriate." "Shall not be flown" is the only text that appears in bold in the letter.

The site of the Civil War's first battle is clearly a "historic" one, but according to a Fort Sumter spokesperson, it doesn't qualify as a place where "flags provide historical context," local WMBF News reported.

After the initial order from Washington to remove the flags was handed down, NPS Director Jarvis provided "further guidance" the next day that put the onus for the decision on regional directors. Fort Sumter's Superintendent Timothy Stone did not reverse Jarvis' decision and the flags remain down.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2015 3:56:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Just when you think this Confederate flag shit can't get any dumber.....
 


Link Posted: 7/3/2015 3:57:05 AM EDT
[#2]
When dos the Kristallnacht start?  I want to get in the glass biz.

Link Posted: 7/3/2015 3:58:28 AM EDT
[#3]
Time for the cadets at The Citadel to take care of things.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:00:20 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:

Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....
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Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.

Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:05:46 AM EDT
[#5]

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Quoted:
Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.



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Quoted:



Quoted:



Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....






Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.







 
Edited post
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:08:13 AM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:



Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.

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Quoted:
Quoted:

Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....



Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.




Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:10:31 AM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:13:44 AM EDT
[#8]

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Quoted:
Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.
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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:



Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....


Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.







Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.


Revisionist much?  Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  So what you are saying is the original match that lit the civil war has no historical significance...cool!



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:15:32 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:

Revisionist much?  Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  So what you are saying is the original match that lit the civil war has no historical significance...cool!
 
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Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....

Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.



Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.

Revisionist much?  Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  So what you are saying is the original match that lit the civil war has no historical significance...cool!
 


I am not saying Ft Sumter has no historical significance. But you've already long shown you aren't capable of reasoning this stuff out.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:18:22 AM EDT
[#10]
Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.



ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.

Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:20:49 AM EDT
[#11]

I think we need to remove the above flag from like everywhere.  Because you know racism.









FFS
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:21:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Huh. No history of it there?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:28:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.
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I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:32:31 AM EDT
[#14]
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Huh. No history of it there?
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There is no historically valid reason to fly all of these flags equal to the US flag like they do. The only reason they ever did was pandering.



Now, to denote positions, specific regions, equipment, etc? Or, in a display teaching about the various flags flown by opposing forces? Yeah, that happens at a shitload of NPS-managed sites.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:34:51 AM EDT
[#15]
This is really get out of control
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:36:59 AM EDT
[#16]

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Quoted:
I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.



Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.



Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.



ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.





I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.



Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.



Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.


So what the flag symbolizes to me must be the same thing that you infer that it symbolizes..racism?  Project much?  Under your definition my neighbor who is a WWII south Pacific vet that flies the stars and bars must be embracing racism.  His 1/2 black great grandchild is going to be sooo disappointed!



Unfortunately for people that don't live in the south they tend to believe that the flag must be a racist symbol and insist on labeling it as such.  It is an uniformed opinion at best.



 
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:40:16 AM EDT
[#17]
Bets on how long until it's illegal to fly it in your own lawn?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:41:30 AM EDT
[#18]
The US really is going full retard.  
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 4:54:24 AM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:

So what the flag symbolizes to me must be the same thing that you infer that it symbolizes..racism?  Project much?  Under your definition my neighbor who is a WWII south Pacific vet that flies the stars and bars must be embracing racism.  His 1/2 black great grandchild is going to be sooo disappointed!

Unfortunately for people that don't live in the south they tend to believe that the flag must be a racist symbol and insist on labeling it as such.  It is an uniformed opinion at best.
 
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.

So what the flag symbolizes to me must be the same thing that you infer that it symbolizes..racism?  Project much?  Under your definition my neighbor who is a WWII south Pacific vet that flies the stars and bars must be embracing racism.  His 1/2 black great grandchild is going to be sooo disappointed!

Unfortunately for people that don't live in the south they tend to believe that the flag must be a racist symbol and insist on labeling it as such.  It is an uniformed opinion at best.
 


No, not at all. Then again, I've explained this to you before. You have a mental block that just refuses to comprehend.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:24:38 AM EDT
[#20]


I hope that somebody is already working on a cool design for the next Civil War flag.

I don't think there's much time left.


Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:32:58 AM EDT
[#21]
The same guys who beat everybody else down in these threads are the same guys you will be fighting if it comes time to break out that new flag.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:41:42 AM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:



Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....



Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.




Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.


You mean, like, states' rights? Freedom from excessive tariffs and economic abuse? Yeah, none of that could be mistaken for what this country ever stood for.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:43:22 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


You mean, like, states' rights? Freedom from excessive tariffs and economic abuse? Yeah, none of that could be mistaken for what this country ever stood for.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....



Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.




Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.


You mean, like, states' rights? Freedom from excessive tariffs and economic abuse? Yeah, none of that could be mistaken for what this country ever stood for.


No, I mean what actually spurred the secession movement and creation of the Confederacy, not the bullshit people made up in subsequent generations out of mass denial.


Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:43:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.



So, it is well-established fact that some northern states remained slaveholding throughout the war. What point are YOU missing?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:46:56 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:



So, it is well-established fact that some northern states remained slaveholding throughout the war. What point are YOU missing?
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.



So, it is well-established fact that some northern states remained slaveholding throughout the war. What point are YOU missing?


What does that have to do with anything? Why the constant Red Herrings?

If Mississippi had stayed loyal to the US (or been physically prevented from secession), would it have changed the ideology and purpose of the Confederacy?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:56:04 AM EDT
[#26]
My first thought upon seeing the headline was that this decision was too reactionary.  However, after reading the article, I support the decision.  

The fort is a historical site, and Confederate flags have a necessary place there in informational displays that educate visitors about what historical entities, people, causes, etc., they represent in relation to the site.  It appears they are taking the flags down from the stand-alone poles over the fort--a display which is not a specific informational presentation.

A hypothetical I thought of is the German bunkers in Normandy.  One cannot divorce the German (and Nazi) history from those bunker sites.  Historical displays within those sites or nearby museums that featured Nazi flags specifically within an educational and informational context may not generate controversy.  But conspicuously flying German or Nazi flags above those bunkers, and thus the French countryside, would certainly be a problem for many visitors.  The key point is context and how the symbol is presented to the public.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 5:58:38 AM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:



So, it is well-established fact that some northern states remained slaveholding throughout the war. What point are YOU missing?
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.



So, it is well-established fact that some northern states remained slaveholding throughout the war. What point are YOU missing?


Bohr_Adam doesn't give a shit, stop poking him and get on with your day.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:01:54 AM EDT
[#28]
This is a trial run. Confederate flag today....so what's tomorrow?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:05:36 AM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
This is a trial run. Confederate flag today....so what's tomorrow?
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Hookers and blow.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:08:00 AM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:


Bohr_Adam doesn't give a shit, stop poking him and get on with your day.
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.



So, it is well-established fact that some northern states remained slaveholding throughout the war. What point are YOU missing?


Bohr_Adam doesn't give a shit, stop poking him and get on with your day.


No, the neo-confederate equivalent to "if humans evolved from monkeys, why are their still apes" is simply stupid. Then again, I'm sure you know this, but your own sense of cultural identity seems to prevent you from being willing to confront such derp when it arises.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:08:29 AM EDT
[#31]
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Hookers and blow.
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This is a trial run. Confederate flag today....so what's tomorrow?


Hookers and blow.

Taking a flag away is one thing but taking hookers and blow is fo time. Thats some SHTF for Las Vegas.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:19:37 AM EDT
[#32]
Legislature of South Carolina, declaring its causes for secession:

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.
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Legislature of Georgia, doing the same:

In 1820 the North demanded that the State of Missouri should not be admitted into the Union unless she first prohibited slavery within her limits by her constitution. After a bitter and protracted struggle the North was defeated in her special object, but her policy and position led to the adoption of a section in the law for the admission of Missouri, prohibiting slavery in all that portion of the territory acquired from France lying North of 36 [degrees] 30 [minutes] north latitude and outside of Missouri. The venerable Madison at the time of its adoption declared it unconstitutional. Mr. Jefferson condemned the restriction and foresaw its consequences and predicted that it would result in the dissolution of the Union. His prediction is now history. The North demanded the application of the principle of prohibition of slavery to all of the territory acquired from Mexico and all other parts of the public domain then and in all future time. It was the announcement of her purpose to appropriate to herself all the public domain then owned and thereafter to be acquired by the United States. The claim itself was less arrogant and insulting than the reason with which she supported it. That reason was her fixed purpose to limit, restrain, and finally abolish slavery in the States where it exists. The South with great unanimity declared her purpose to resist the principle of prohibition to the last extremity. This particular question, in connection with a series of questions affecting the same subject, was finally disposed of by the defeat of prohibitory legislation.

The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

For forty years this question has been considered and debated in the halls of Congress, before the people, by the press, and before the tribunals of justice. The majority of the people of the North in 1860 decided it in their own favor. We refuse to submit to that judgment, and in vindication of our refusal we offer the Constitution of our country and point to the total absence of any express power to exclude us. We offer the practice of our Government for the first thirty years of its existence in complete refutation of the position that any such power is either necessary or proper to the execution of any other power in relation to the Territories. We offer the judgment of a large minority of the people of the North, amounting to more than one-third, who united with the unanimous voice of the South against this usurpation; and, finally, we offer the judgment of the Supreme Court of the United States, the highest judicial tribunal of our country, in our favor. This evidence ought to be conclusive that we have never surrendered this right. The conduct of our adversaries admonishes us that if we had surrendered it, it is time to resume it.
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Shortly thereafter, the Vice President of the newly Declared Confederacy, announcing their new Constitution:

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.
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Sorry, doesn't take an historian to admit the reality of what the Confederacy was. It does take a special level of denial to claim otherwise.

Whether someone believes the flag represents something else is wholly irrelevant. A lot of people are ignorant about a lot of things. People with healthy mental outlook seek to remove their own ignorance, not dwell in it.

Historical revisionism is best left to Leftists.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:47:18 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:
Legislature of South Carolina, declaring its causes for secession:



Legislature of Georgia, doing the same:



Shortly thereafter, the Vice President of the newly Declared Confederacy, announcing their new Constitution:



Sorry, doesn't take an historian to admit the reality of what the Confederacy was. It does take a special level of denial to claim otherwise.

Whether someone believes the flag represents something else is wholly irrelevant. A lot of people are ignorant about a lot of things. People with healthy mental outlook seek to remove their own ignorance, not dwell in it.

Historical revisionism is best left to Leftists.
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Legislature of South Carolina, declaring its causes for secession:

The ends for which the Constitution was framed are declared by itself to be "to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity."

These ends it endeavored to accomplish by a Federal Government, in which each State was recognized as an equal, and had separate control over its own institutions. The right of property in slaves was recognized by giving to free persons distinct political rights, by giving them the right to represent, and burthening them with direct taxes for three-fifths of their slaves; by authorizing the importation of slaves for twenty years; and by stipulating for the rendition of fugitives from labor.

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

For twenty-five years this agitation has been steadily increasing, until it has now secured to its aid the power of the common Government. Observing the forms of the Constitution, a sectional party has found within that Article establishing the Executive Department, the means of subverting the Constitution itself. A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.

This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

On the 4th day of March next, this party will take possession of the Government. It has announced that the South shall be excluded from the common territory, that the judicial tribunals shall be made sectional, and that a war must be waged against slavery until it shall cease throughout the United States.

The guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of self-government, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.


Legislature of Georgia, doing the same:

In 1820 the North demanded that the State of Missouri should not be admitted into the Union unless she first prohibited slavery within her limits by her constitution. After a bitter and protracted struggle the North was defeated in her special object, but her policy and position led to the adoption of a section in the law for the admission of Missouri, prohibiting slavery in all that portion of the territory acquired from France lying North of 36 [degrees] 30 [minutes] north latitude and outside of Missouri. The venerable Madison at the time of its adoption declared it unconstitutional. Mr. Jefferson condemned the restriction and foresaw its consequences and predicted that it would result in the dissolution of the Union. His prediction is now history. The North demanded the application of the principle of prohibition of slavery to all of the territory acquired from Mexico and all other parts of the public domain then and in all future time. It was the announcement of her purpose to appropriate to herself all the public domain then owned and thereafter to be acquired by the United States. The claim itself was less arrogant and insulting than the reason with which she supported it. That reason was her fixed purpose to limit, restrain, and finally abolish slavery in the States where it exists. The South with great unanimity declared her purpose to resist the principle of prohibition to the last extremity. This particular question, in connection with a series of questions affecting the same subject, was finally disposed of by the defeat of prohibitory legislation.

The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential contest again in 1860 and succeeded.

The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.

For forty years this question has been considered and debated in the halls of Congress, before the people, by the press, and before the tribunals of justice. The majority of the people of the North in 1860 decided it in their own favor. We refuse to submit to that judgment, and in vindication of our refusal we offer the Constitution of our country and point to the total absence of any express power to exclude us. We offer the practice of our Government for the first thirty years of its existence in complete refutation of the position that any such power is either necessary or proper to the execution of any other power in relation to the Territories. We offer the judgment of a large minority of the people of the North, amounting to more than one-third, who united with the unanimous voice of the South against this usurpation; and, finally, we offer the judgment of the Supreme Court of the United States, the highest judicial tribunal of our country, in our favor. This evidence ought to be conclusive that we have never surrendered this right. The conduct of our adversaries admonishes us that if we had surrendered it, it is time to resume it.


Shortly thereafter, the Vice President of the newly Declared Confederacy, announcing their new Constitution:

The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the “rock upon which the old Union would split.” He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the “storm came and the wind blew.”

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.


Sorry, doesn't take an historian to admit the reality of what the Confederacy was. It does take a special level of denial to claim otherwise.

Whether someone believes the flag represents something else is wholly irrelevant. A lot of people are ignorant about a lot of things. People with healthy mental outlook seek to remove their own ignorance, not dwell in it.

Historical revisionism is best left to Leftists.


Your sig line......it fits
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:52:31 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.


Slavery and segregation was legal under the US Flag longer than it was under the stars and bars.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:55:24 AM EDT
[#35]
This is a huge victory for the left. They can pretty much set their own agenda and get the masses to follow. It's like a bully in a school yard with a bunch of wimpy kids that won't fight back.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:55:39 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:


Slavery and segregation was legal under the US Flag longer than it was under the stars and bars.
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.


Slavery and segregation was legal under the US Flag longer than it was under the stars and bars.


So?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:56:29 AM EDT
[#37]
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This is a huge victory for the left. They can pretty much set their own agenda and get the masses to follow. It's like a bully in a school yard with a bunch of wimpy kids that won't fight back.
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So, in your mind, it's "Leftism" not to pander to Southern historical revisionism?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:59:18 AM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 6:59:43 AM EDT
[#39]
This is BEYOND out of control and really demonstrates how far we have fallen as a country.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:00:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:02:25 AM EDT
[#41]
The Supreme Court made the Dred Scott decision:

Dred Scott first went to trial to sue for his freedom in 1847. Ten years later, after a decade of appeals and court reversals, his case was finally brought before the United States Supreme Court. In what is perhaps the most infamous case in its history, the court decided that all people of African ancestry -- slaves as well as those who were free -- could never become citizens of the United States and therefore could not sue in federal court. The court also ruled that the federal government did not have the power to prohibit slavery in its territories. Scott, needless to say, remained a slave.
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How in the world do you ban the Confederate Flag and not ban the Supreme Court?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:04:56 AM EDT
[#42]

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When dos the Kristallnacht start?  I want to get in the glass biz.

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Damn good idea.




That or renting jackhammers and heavy equipment to take down all the Confederate monuments...I need to talk to United and Sunbelt Rentals.




This is insane.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:07:23 AM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:
The Supreme Court made the Dred Scott decision:



How in the world do you ban the Confederate Flag and not ban the Supreme Court?
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The Supreme Court made the Dred Scott decision:

Dred Scott first went to trial to sue for his freedom in 1847. Ten years later, after a decade of appeals and court reversals, his case was finally brought before the United States Supreme Court. In what is perhaps the most infamous case in its history, the court decided that all people of African ancestry -- slaves as well as those who were free -- could never become citizens of the United States and therefore could not sue in federal court. The court also ruled that the federal government did not have the power to prohibit slavery in its territories. Scott, needless to say, remained a slave.


How in the world do you ban the Confederate Flag and not ban the Supreme Court?


What?

Has the Supreme Court pretended that never happened, or tried to insist that decision is still valid in spite of the Thirteenth Amendment?

What does that have to do with anything being discussed here?
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:11:48 AM EDT
[#44]
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No, I mean what actually spurred the secession movement and creation of the Confederacy, not the bullshit people made up in subsequent generations out of mass denial.


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Just when you think this CBF shit can't get any dumber.....



Not just the CBF in this case. ALL Confederate flags.




Good, the years of blindly tolerating the symbols of a movement that opposed everything this country stands for, all in them name of "reconciliation" (while actually being nothing more than pandering) might as well end now.


You mean, like, states' rights? Freedom from excessive tariffs and economic abuse? Yeah, none of that could be mistaken for what this country ever stood for.


No, I mean what actually spurred the secession movement and creation of the Confederacy, not the bullshit people made up in subsequent generations out of mass denial.




" Homo unius libri" (a man of one book)     Thomas Aquinas
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:19:01 AM EDT
[#45]
You've gone full retard gents.  
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:22:33 AM EDT
[#46]
Rarely does the losing team get to fly its banner.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:25:42 AM EDT
[#47]
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This is a huge victory for the left. They can pretty much set their own agenda and get the masses to follow. It's like a bully in a school yard with a bunch of wimpy kids that won't fight back.
View Quote


Well, this is an NPS par administrator making a decision.  Can be easily reversed.

Republicans own business.
Democrats and the left own communications...media and entertainment.

It is actually a very simple Alinsky formula. Anyone can do it.  You poll the opposing party voters, and found 50% wedge issues.    57% of the country don't see the Confederate flag as anything but Southern pride; there isn't consensus between Republicans.  File the issue away, decide what the trigger is, and launch it.

There are left wing wedge issues, where you could executive order some things out and half the Dems would flip and the other half wouldn't; half accuse the other of being extremist; the first half accuse the second half of being sellouts.

Thing about elections is when you open Pandora's box things like this come back at you.  

It is hard to defend against, because it works.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:26:18 AM EDT
[#48]
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  Damn good idea.


That or renting jackhammers and heavy equipment to take down all the Confederate monuments...I need to talk to United and Sunbelt Rentals.


This is insane.
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When dos the Kristallnacht start?  I want to get in the glass biz.

  Damn good idea.


That or renting jackhammers and heavy equipment to take down all the Confederate monuments...I need to talk to United and Sunbelt Rentals.


This is insane.



+100. I am in total amazement of the level of stupidity.  I think this will end in war if they try to re-sink the Hunley.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:28:54 AM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.
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Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.



So the definition of things does not change with time?

Can things be redefined with time?

I will put out there that if the definition of words can be changed , then the definition of a flag can change.
Link Posted: 7/3/2015 7:29:52 AM EDT
[#50]
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Quoted:

So what the flag symbolizes to me must be the same thing that you infer that it symbolizes..racism?  Project much?  Under your definition my neighbor who is a WWII south Pacific vet that flies the stars and bars must be embracing racism.  His 1/2 black great grandchild is going to be sooo disappointed!

Unfortunately for people that don't live in the south they tend to believe that the flag must be a racist symbol and insist on labeling it as such.  It is an uniformed opinion at best.
 
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Quoted:
Actually I am quite a reasonable person you just don't know me from Adam.

ETA:  If you want to discuss that the Stars and Bars was not the historically correct flag then I would give you that point.  If you want to paint the Stars and Bars with a broad brush of racism then you would be just as ignorant as those that wish to revise history.


I paint the Confederacy with the Broad brush of racism. Flags and what not are secondary to that.

Anyone who tries to deny the very foundation of the movement that led to it is the one trying to revise history.

Anyone who fixates on different flags is clearly missing the point, probably intentionally.

So what the flag symbolizes to me must be the same thing that you infer that it symbolizes..racism?  Project much?  Under your definition my neighbor who is a WWII south Pacific vet that flies the stars and bars must be embracing racism.  His 1/2 black great grandchild is going to be sooo disappointed!

Unfortunately for people that don't live in the south they tend to believe that the flag must be a racist symbol and insist on labeling it as such.  It is an uniformed opinion at best.
 


No one cares what you have revised history to pretend that flag means.
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