Although the guy you are responding to is either a troll, idiot, or cannot express himself very well, I think there are applications where a pistol caliber weapon would be superior.  Keep in mind I have no le or mil experience so I'm no expert.  But one situation that comes to mind is if you have to be discreet.  You can put s mp5k under your jacket where mk18 would be hard to conceal. Another would be if you were in a ship and ricochets were a concern.  There has to be limited situations where they are still useful or they wouldn't be in the armory any more, right?  Anyone with actual experience please correct me if I'm wrong

They're phenomenal for teaching newbies.

I'm not saying there aren't certain applications where a PCC can still be useful.  The truth of the matter is though, those situations are few and far between.

Hell, the Mk18 was specifically made for USN VBSS teams because pistol calibers were found to be sub-optimal for ship boarding missions.

Good point

You know Adriana, this could be an interesting thread. Hell, for all I know, you could really have some salient, on point information to share on the subject. But all you've offered so far are unsupported opinions and snarky replies to people attempting to infer whatever it is that you're unable or unwilling to state plainly. You're coming across as a complete jackass. If that was your goal, than you're excellent at being a volitional jackass.

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Yep. Carried both, too, and for entry, I'll go with a PCC/ SMG. Been to plenty of autopsies from both, as well. SEEING the aftereffects helps be a LOT more accepting of the benefits of PCCs up close.

I wish I hadn't sold my H&K USC.



It was fun to shoot. The photo is not my rifle.

I have a 9 mm  AR. It's a nice range toy, that's about its extent of intended use. Lots of people like to try it out.

The Mk18 was developed by/for DEVGRU for that reason. It trickled down to the vanilla teams and the regular Navy guys.

Anyways.... lots of derp in this thread.

lol

derp

out of

Have you seen what a pcc will do to your eardrums indoors?

Yep, nothing when you are wearing Sordins.

That thing is junk. I'll do you a favor and give you $50 for it

What was your previous username?

You can when your start taking about guns with 5 inch barrels

Not to mention the the penetration of a 147 grain 9mm bullet on common household construction? Read some more  before you talk about logic and rational thought. Lots of material out there showing the benefits and improvements of rifle caliber carbines versus the handgun caliber carbine.

My size 10 EEE foot can overpenetrate walls. Rifle and pistol bullets do so even better.

I wonder who's troll account that is. Seven years is a long time to wait, and then just up and go full retard.

Checked in early on page one, hoping to see pics of a small-town deputy butt-stroking some vagrant with his department issued Ruger PC9-complete with an Aimpoint, Surefire X400, can and covered in Magpul jizz. Return to thread. No tacticool Camp Carbines being used as compliance devices against hippies. No worn out MP5/40's covered in Magpul jizz. No goddamn sense.

What I do get is a "contributor" to this thread that doesn't fuck around shooting construction supplies-he evidently shoots the construction workers. At least that was my deduction, the truth is evidently classified...

I got a few seconds of retinal AIDS when somebody attempted to compare Ranger T to 55 grain ball in a fashion that seemed to indicate that the former could somehow be construed as better than the latter.

The auditory experts showed up with their degrees in medicine, science and wizardry to prove that shooting a PCC indoors sans ear pro will make you less Helen Keller than a rifle.

I also got nostalgia, supposition, willfull ignorance and possibly a pile of dead construction workers(with intact building materials) attempting to discredit or otherwise disregard 20+ years of CQB/terminal ballistics study and experience.

I thought "gun guys" knew the performance difference between a rifle and a pistol? This is fucking fantastic. Please carry on

I'm not sure if it's relevant to this thread or not, but years ago there was a picture hanging out there on the line of some operator in Iraq, operating operationally across a bridge with a UMP45. IIRC, it wasn't an A.C.E. guy but a more regular Army guy... Anyone remember seeing this pic or have any additional info/photos of US troops using UMP45's?

I suppose my Rossi M92 in .45 Colt counts, if a bit old-school for some.

This pic?  


It appears after a quick Google search that those are 5th Group guys in Iraq.

Pet detective, bro.  Get your shit straight.

Holyshitpleasestopwiththeinsanityandignoringreality.

They're inordinately fun to shoot (and the ammo is cheaper than 5.56).

Other than that? I got nothing (and I own and adore both an MP5 clone and MP5K clone).

Perhaps he is training for a different type of war?  After all, it's just a matter of degrees.

Its those fucking barns, isnt it?

I wouldn't buy one unless I had a 9mm suppressor. Which I intend to in the near future.

Rifle caliber is better than pistol caliber.

Exactly what?  It doesn't do shit.

This thread was my entertainment last night before bed.  I think it needs a bump this morning

Dat drop leg doe

I'd almost guarantee it's crammed with 40mm HEDP to go along with that M79.

It appears he enjoyed carrying oddball weapons just because he could

PSA has them on sale. Just bought a complete 9mm upper for a pistol build. For fun. about $600 total and all I need is a rear sight.

LOL.  



Three pages, and there's no sexual innuendo for "overpenetration" yet?  





 

PSA has the 9mm kits for $399 delivered.  With a $50 lower, you're running for less than $500.  

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-9-ar-47/psa-16-9mm-1-10-melonite-rifle-kit-no-magazine.html



 

I went with the 10.5" barrel and a dedicated 9mm lower So i wouldn't have to mess with a mag block

I would not want to be in front of this guy.
" />

Derp

Suppressor.

Is a team comprised of all Black guys common down there?  I don't think I've ever seen that before...not a negative comment, just never saw it before...interesting.


As for the pistol/ rifle caliber debate going on in this thread...well, imo there's some intelligent insights but the majority posting clearly have no real-world experience fighting with firearms. Not an insult but rather just an objective observation.

In my experience recommendations of adopting rifles vice Sub guns were based on a variety of factors but primarily it was the operational environment.  LE historically worked in a permissive environment. That's to say they generally planned on loading up, arriving at the target and then focused almost exclusively on actions on the objective.  My observations were that there was little-to-no consideration given to security during movement to the objective, battle drills, withdrawal from the objective (post mission), etc...

So as I examined this I began to recommend TTP changes that would also drive some equipment changes. One of these recommendations included officers employing  a long gun that could effectively engage out to 3-400 meters and beyond, if required. Other recommendations were to teach, rehearse and implement basic battle drills such as react to near/far ambush, sniper, etc...

Sounds like militarization of the police, right?

Well ponder a high risk entry op that took place years ago in a large Southern city. The target was an apartment in a massive GOV housing projects...dozens of high rises filled with urbanites,  folks that were less than friendly to the police.

During this op, based on few factors, the entry team had to move quite a distance by foot through the complex. During that movement they took fire twice from quite a distance away. Mind you this wasn't fire from the target apartment but rather just folks that apperantly saw some cops and thought they'd take some shots at them. That's what's going on out there....That's the enviornment that cops work in.  

Luckily the bad guy fire was ineffective and the team didn't engage, they didn't put down suppressive fire, etc.....but, and a big but,  was that had it been appropriate to engage they simply didn't have the means to as every single officer was carrying a MP5.

Now for all of you sub gun fans think about that. Think how well a sub gun does in a semi-permissive environment  where you might take fire on the infil/exfil and might have to engage at 2 or 300 meters. Honestly speaking police will rarely shoot at those distances...just too many variables and police are very prudent to ensure that friendlies don't get hurt. I give them enormous credit for the risks they take in bieng so prudent.  The fact is though, in today's enviornment of lawlessness, they need the tools to do so,  if God forbid, they have to.

Also, as was mentioned by someone in the thread, albeit somewhat flippantly , shooter skill is a significant factor when employing rifles. Rounds need to go where you plan on putting them and training should reflect that.

lol

Boring to shoot and ammo costs about the same or more than rifle ammo.

I would take a PCC over a short barreled AR for home defense any day of the week, mainly due to the intolerable muzzle blast ARs have when fired indoors. For distances of less than 50 feet, I don't see any advantage an AR would have over a PCC like an MP5, except for better penetration of body armor (but seriously, how many burglars are wearing body armor?). Using high quality SD rounds would give you plenty of lethality for short distances, as well as practically nonexistent recoil (granted, an AR doesn't have much recoil either). Yes, I know all the "9mm overpenetrates, 5.56 fragments" herp derp, but I've seen plenty of 5.56 rounds go right through wood, brick, and other construction materials without missing a beat.

PCCs are also very easy to suppress. I shot my SBR'd MP5 yesterday with an Octane 45 and the noise was easily tolerable without ears on.

I know that 5.56 has a much longer engagement range, but how many of you guys are seriously thinking about taking potshots at a fleeing burglar 100 yards away or more in a crowded urban environment?

Now, for a SHTF scenario... I would take an AR every time. The engagement distances have the possibility of being much longer in that kind of situation.


As for the original thread topic, there seem to be a lot of PDs and military organizations still using PCCs. I would see LE agencies being particularly interested in doing so because of the common ammunition between them and issue sidearms.

I have a MPX. Its fun as hell for shooting rabbits, steel etc.

Lol, no.

SGAmmo
Wolf gold 55 gr brass cased $316 del/1000
Brown Bear 62gr Steel Case $290/1000
Mag tech 9mm 115 gr brass $216 del/1000

Edited for clarity.