Read my above post.

100 pages of safety violation.

Holy shit...I almost forgot about this thread

Mister_H, congratulations on 100 pages of safety wisdom....you magnificent sonofabitch

Nobody is going to read the thread for you.

I don't know why you'd choose to participate in a discussion on a written discussion forum that requires reading, if you don't want to read, or are not interested enough to read the topic/thread before discussing it.

I think mainly we were arguing over semantics and me not understanding what your main point was.
Eventually I came to the conclusion that your opinion is based on the idea that: pulling a trigger after you check the chamber of a weapon breeds complacency and can lead to an ND. This is different than dry firing or function checking because you are doing those in different situations which aren't as susceptible to ND (say, having just assembled a weapon from being field stripped).
The way you presented this, that dropping the hammer violates a rule but dry firing and function checking don't, was the confusing part for me and I'm sure many others. I eventually figured out (at least I think, correct me if I'm wrong), that you say it violates a rule since it is (or can become) a habitual part of clearing, and thus ceases to be a deliberate action (at least on the same weapons safety level as intentional dry fire practice and function checking).
I had not considered the building complacency angle, and thus assumed that the gun, left alone in the safe was safer in that condition than cocked with the safety on.





I'll admit that I see the error in my ways.






I'm honestly trying to tell you that a more concise, standard, copy and paste post that you can just throw out there every time the same questions come up would be a fuck of allot easier than telling people that "this has already been answered in the thread".



Literally: *click reply* ctl+c, ctl+v, "click post*.



That's how my lazy ass would do it.
 

You're welcome for my service.

Safety is 100% paramount, so I'm in on 100

Thank you, Scientist_H

Few people, if any read an entire 100 page thread.



People read maybe a couple pages, and then go to the last few pages.



That's just how things work.



Don't be surprised if 1 page from now someone else comes in and rehashes the same topics.



 

The people you're arguing with read the entire thread.

Step back for a minute.

I don't know you, what you know and what you don't know.  I can only go by what you post.

You tell me to dig way back in this encyclopedia of a thread, apparently in yet another attempt at dodging a simple question regarding simple mechanics.  It's being evasive.  Maybe you do know, maybe you don't.  How am I supposed to fucking know?  You're not relaying what you know, more over being evasive often means being untruthful.  

The question to bargain?  It was a last-ditch attempt to get a straight answer.  If you're NOT trolling me, why is it so god damned hard?





To show I'm not fucking with you either I'll post it again:

Rifle on safe, remove mag, check clear and store with bolt closed is reasonably safe.
Rifle on safe, remove mag, check clear and store with bolt open is reasonably safe. (This is a time-proven civilian practice, other non-safety benefits like barrel to 'breathe').

For 'reasonably safe' - as pointed out, not as safe as locks or chamber flags.

But apparently not all of them understood it, or how to more effectively get their message across instead of calling people stupid.



 

You would benefit from reading the entire thread. All of these arguments you've made, and this rationalization of why you're special and shouldn't have to read, has all been done before.

Within the last few pages no less.


Keep trying and you'll come up with something original, I'm sure.

Fair enough. Sounds like we agree.

Keep in mind this was started off as "hey dumbass put your weapon on safe" then questions came, then answers and so on and so forth. It was a discussion. That's why it was at times maybe hard to follow.

If I am interested in a topic, I read the thread before posting.

I lurked for 4 years on this site reading only, before registering and participating in discussions.

Tell me more about your habits. I would very much like to fully understand how your mind works.

If you look at the people who came back and commented about how they changed their habits thanks to this thread, many of them talk about how they were stubborn and hard-headed, but finally came to accept the safety science after reading our posts.

People who are hard-headed and full of themselves need more than just a friendly, informative post to change their ways. They need their views challenged and they need dominance asserted over them.

Christ. Apparently you haven't even read my statements in the last few pages, I'm agreeing with pretty much everything you guys say except your delivery.



Like I said. Several of you guys don't actually give a fuck about safety, just calling people stupid, throwing out insults, and showing how much better you are than anyone else.



 

You guys have said multiple times that people coming in and saying the exact same things has happened every 10 pages or so. Clearly there are plenty of other people who aren't like you, and don't read every 100 page thread they come across.



 

Part in red.

 

I've LITERALLY been giving you what you want.  If you had read the thread, you would have read many of my posts that are scattered through out it. The longer you wait to read the thread, the longer it's going to get... Everything you've asked, is contained in the thread or has already been answered, you just don't like the answers.

Yes, yes. Those are generally safety violators. They don't read much.

Question, do you make your bed in the morning?

And yes, I know that it's just going to get messy again when you sleep in it that night.

The problem is, there are people like me who all I really needed was a friendly and informative post to show me the reasoning behind changing my ways.



Instead I got multiple posts calling me stupid and ignorant, and any other number of things under the sun. Which forced me to become defensive.



I stated, in this thread, that I see the argument why dropping the hammer can increase the risk of ND.



I honestly think you can have a post that does both.



And I think the "dominance being asserted over them" is the problem. It backfires and makes you seem like a completely irrational person who is just talking out of their ass about something they heard, rather than having an actual reasoned argument.







 

Bed? I sleep on a pile of condition 0 1911's.



 

Again.  You're expecting me to read through 100 pages when you could just say one or the other?  You're evading, not answering like you have a solid grasp, and you want the burden of proof otherwise to fall on me.

Forget it.  

Do you agree with the bolded part or not?

If you'd like, I could write out a summary of why you should keep your AR on safe.

1.) You should treat your firearms as though they are loaded at all times. This helps to prevent negligent discharges and simplifies manual of arms. An AR is not safe to carry on fire with a round in the chamber, as there is nothing preventing the trigger from being inadvertently pulled by debris and such. As such, you should keep ARs on safe until you are ready to fire (this is also in the M16's safety rules).

2.) Keeping the rifle with the hammer back and safety on does not cause additional wear on the springs, and having the hammer forward does not help to prevent the spring from wearing/fatiguing.

3.) Dropping the hammer as a part of the clearing process is unnecessary, and opens up the likelihood of having a negligent discharge by a huge factor. Getting into the habit of dropping the hammer as a part of your clearing process makes having an ND much more likely because if you become complacent in clearing your rifle (i.e. you do a step out of order), you'll end up putting a hole in something you didn't want to put a hole in. If you would have left the rifle on safe in that situation, instead of pulling the trigger, there would be a round in the chamber, but the safety is on, and as you should always treat your firearm as though it's loaded, you shouldn't have any problems with the rifle actually being loaded. The likelihood of messing up in your clearing process is much more likely than completely disregarding the rest of the safety rules (i.e. taking it off safe and pulling the trigger randomly, or flagging people with the muzzle).

4.) ARs are not Glocks, or any other handgun. Handguns have holsters to protect their triggers from being inadvertently pulled, while ARs do not.


There's more, but this should suffice for now.

And this thread would have been a three page flop quickly forgotten and relegated to the archives.

I've been following this thread since early on. I don't like the schtick. I don't like the antics. I sure as shit don't like seeing Pelosi over and over again. But you know what? It's brilliant. It may be one of the best executed safety campaigns in the history of the internet. Like an annoying Geico commercial that everyone proclaims they hate, it's scorned but everyone knows who to call when they want to save a ton of money on their car insurance.

This thread may irritate those who sweat semantics, love debate, or just don't like admitting they themselves, their daddy, or their drill instructor were wrong, but it continues to drive a point home. I think there's few who enjoy a good debate as much as myself, but anyone reading this thread with a mature and open mind can learn a thing or two. Hell, in just the past weeks we had a member relay an account of someone who injured himself with an ND by pulling the trigger as part of his clearing procedure. That should be a clue.

100 seems like a good place to relay this. A few weeks ago I was out shooting with a friend at his family farm, a place we've been shooting since we were kids. Both of us have spent years in Iraq and Afghanistan, he as a soldier and myself as a contractor. We're no strangers to handling weapons. Just in from a year long assignment overseas, this was my first time out shooting since this thread started. As the day came to a close we were putting things away, casing weapons, and as I've done for years I dropped the mag, cleared the chamber, and pulled the trigger as part of my habitual clearing procedure. Then I thought of this thread and told him "We gotta quit doing that." When he inquired as to why, I explained the logic presented here ad nauseam. Like many, and having pulled one too many triggers over a clearing barrel, he initially rejected the concept but quickly came to see the advantage. So thanks to all this bullshit I was reminded of safe vs sloppy practices and educated someone else to the same.

To the dissenters, please keep arguing. We're to almost 120,000 views - every "gotcha" is a bump and I'm sure there's still folks out there that could learn something from it.

These are serious questions.

I need to understand the mental state and habits of safety violators.

How often do you wear pants that have belt loops without a belt, in a formal/semi-formal setting?

Have you ever left the house wearing pajamas?

Great post.

I'm sure there's a Pelosi meme inbound shortly.

Yes, I expect you too. If you want to be treated like an actual participant in the discussion it's a great place to start. If you want people to keep rolling thier eyes at you as you keep bringing things that have been brought up time and time again, that are not relevant that's OK too. But you know what to expect so that's on you.

 

"Rifle on safe, remove mag, check clear and store with bolt closed is reasonably safe.
Rifle on safe, remove mag, check clear and store with bolt open is reasonably safe. (This is a time-proven civilian practice, other non-safety benefits like barrel to 'breathe').



For 'reasonably safe' - as pointed out, not as safe as locks or chamber flags."


That means nothing. How would I agree or disagree when it's just random junk?

What is a "reasonably safe" weapon? Firearms are either "clear" or "Not clear".  They are never to be treated as "reasonably safe".

Please cite literature where that term is used. I'm assuming you invented it for the purpose of this thread though.


You can call it evading if you want to, but I'll neither agree with, nor disagree with you bold text, because It doesn't deserve to even be given the legitimacy of being disagreed with.


If you had read the thread, you would have seen the details and interconnections between the various safety rules and procedures, and you would no why the  ideology you are attempting to fabricate does not hold up.  


You're trying to berate people for not giving into your need for instant gratification by agreeing or disagreeing with you, and begging for simplistic answers, because you're too lazy to be bothered reading dozens of pages of the actual logic and philosophy behind all of this.


Keep digging your heels in though.  Not like you're the first in this thread to do so.

As a professional soldier and infantryman it was very hard to admit that I was trained wrong.  But, as DKProf noted, get over yourself.

*AGAIN* you're disagreeing simply to disagree.  Who's digging in heels?  

Ignore all subject matter, take a deep breath, and try to look at your own posts objectively.

If you're a guy that's as serious about safety as you say you are, you'd stop avoiding direct simple questions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

While you claim you're serious about the subject, your posts aren't conveying it.

Cool.  So we both agree.  

See, that's what I'm talking about. All of that seems perfectly reasonable and is a well written, fairly concise post.



To me, that is way more convincing that the conversation that I had when I originally jumped in the thread.



I think it would cut down on the back and forth between people if this was posted first each time a new person entered the thread.



I realize they may not read, or comprehend the entire post, then that's where you can start yelling at people and saying "why the hell don't you understand the simple post above? what the fuck is wrong with you?", etc.



 

That's the thing. In its current format it only works for people who stick around long enough to whether all the insults and half explanations, reading pages and pages of convoluted posts to tease out the actual solid logical reasoning behind the seemingly contradictory statements, which when presented in full actually aren't contradictory and make a hell of a lot of sense.





How many people said 'fuck it, these guys are just trolling, they have no argument', and moved on?



I nearly did. Luckily I like to argue, and was drunk, and thought "fuck it, lets have a bitch fest, this will be a nice chance of pace from the normal bitch fests I get in to."





 

Wow. 10 months and 100 pages.

Interesting.

I'm sure they are serious questions, and I am answering you seriously:



I never wear belts, I always wear a live copperhead tied around my waist.



As for pajamas, yes, I've left the house wearing full MARPAT and a chest rig, which is what I sleep in.





 

I can't believe that you're so ignorant that the only way you have of winning your own one sided argument, is to erase all of my response and leave only an out of context part, and pretend that I somehow agree with you.

 
If nothing else that is more of a final nail in the coffin of even a shred of expecting you to be remotely serious about any of this.


But not only that, you do it, after another indignant response to the same response leading to some sort of begging double post of manic-depressive disorder.



Not sure what your real problem is.  that you can't converse in a manner that merits being taken seriously, or that you try SO HARD to be taken seriously, that you ultimately can't be because it comes across so weird.


Once again, sounds liek a you problem, not a me problem. This hole you've dug yourself could have been avoided had you read the entire thread.

Objectively, my posts start on page twelve close to a year ago.
Have you ever stopped to think, that maybe I'm not avoiding direct questions (I havn't been) but the questions you've been asking are simply either logical fallacies at best, or bast on bad ideology at worst?



Then you beg, plead, bargain, and finally now lash out as a child would with this post, and your goofy manic double tap wherein you discount my direct answer you your question (so you can probably continue to blame me for avoiding answering).


You claim I'm not serious about the subject. My posts in the last 90 pages show differently. You claim you're not going to read them though so objectively you don't really know if I am or not. You only FEEL like I'm not.  But then you keep attention seeking me as if you deserve my what? respect? Admiration of your knowledge base?

If you want to see if I'm serious about the thread, and answer your question,  which I've answered already, start at page twelve.  When you get back to here you'll have seen how you're probably the third or fourth person to have tried this all.


Bottom line, you would really benefit from reading the whole thread, as it contains LOTS of safety philosophy, and acts as proof as to why cutting corners, and "gotcha's lead to nothing but ND's and holes in floors and water heaters.


It's a serious thread about safety, if you want to be serious, read the whole thread.

Who's going on and on and on and on about trying to use gotchas and dwelling on minutiae now?  

In your rabid zeal of hunting, you have become what you hunted.

I've asked plenty of times to drop it.


Follow all the safety rules.  Keep your AR on safe.  When leaving in the safe, action open or closed doesn't matter.  Can't we agree on that?

Who's arguing to hear themselves argue now?

Follow all the safety rules. Keep your AR on safe. When leaving in the safe, action open or closed doesn't matter. Can't we agree on that?

Who are you to be critical of it, when it's been shown to work?

 

You've failed to realize this entire thread is psychologically based on operant conditioning.

Is this safe?



Click To View Spoiler

And if you stick around, in a few pages some new guy will show up and "TLDR: Is this safe?" and post a pic of an AR mag inserted on fire?  When someone tells him to read the thread, he'll post the "This is my safety" pic from Blackhawk Down, and this whole argument cycle will repeat.  And you literally can predict their arguments before they make them, because the previous 30 people have made the same arguments.  People either convert to the Safe side, or just go away, because they are unable to argue against facts and logic.  A few such as yourself will admit they were wrong and join in the Safety Science battle, and some will get smacked down by Pelosi because after they claim how safe they are with weapons handling and storing an AR hammer forward, he will post their ND's by their own admission from other threads.  And it keeps going, over and over.  100 pages worth.  Brilliant.

I cant remember if I posted in this thread or not back on page 80 something, but I read through a few pages, listened to both sides, see both sides' arguments, and have since stopped keeping my rifles on fire, hammer down, and when I handle them I still pick them up and clear them every time, whether a mag is inserted or not.

Pretty much this.  

I have done three combat deployments.
1st Deployment) Clearing barrel just inside the gate, it was only used when you came in off of patrol.  We followed that procedure because it was left from one of the MEUs we replaced.  There were clearing barrels in a few other places on the camp (in front of the DFAC and TOC that I can remember) but we never used them.  Yes, the "Army way" was to use those clearing barrels but in a rare moment, common sense firearm safety was adopted by my unit leadership and those clearing barrels were not used, just the ones right inside the north or east gate.  

Then we were replaced by an active duty Army unit.  In the 3 weeks I was there while that unit "owned" the camp, there were 2 NDs at the DFAC.  

2nd Deployment) Clearing barrel inside the gate.  4 or 5 NDs occurred during the course of the 10 months.  

3rd Deployment) No clearing barrel.  No NDs.  

Even before my first deployment it never made sense why pulling the trigger on a gun that should always be treated as loaded was a good idea.  If you don't trust Joey to clear his weapon, his team leader, squad leader or someone can double check Joseph's weapon and verify it is clear.  Pulling the trigger and dropping the hammer is stupid.  But there is stupid, and then there is Army Stupid.  

So I join ARF and see so many pictures of guns with the safety off.  It didn't make sense, but I bought into the notion that I was just a stupid 13er and the great weapon manipulators of ARFCOM knew better than this stupid National Guardsman who has only done 2 deployments with Brigade Combat Teams and another deployment with a Special Operations unit (a support guy, just so no one accuses me of ReconB4-ing my background).  It never even occurred to me that not only those weapons had the safety off, but the hammer was down (and therefore the trigger had been pulled).  I just thought that was Army Stupid stuff that wouldn't infect the SMEs on ARFCOM.  

I even began taking pictures of my weapons with the safety off (again, not dropping the trigger because that is Army Stupid).  After taking the picture with the safety off, I'd pick up my weapon, put the safety on and then put those weapons back in the safe, back into the carry case at the range, or back into my holster.

Then, like the first warm, sunny day after a long, cold dark winter, Professor_H started this thread.  I didn't know where he was going at first because I have been guilty of "thisismysafety.jpg hurrrr durrrr" before.  I read the safety thread to find out what was in the safety thread.  I learned that I had survived the Army Stupid indoctrination but the subliminal effects of Juggalos posting pictures of their weapons off of safe had impacted my weapon handling during the time I am not in uniform.  This thread made me realize that the Juggalos aren't just taking a picture with the safety off, they are dropping the hammer on a chamber.  With so many carpeted backgrounds in picture threads I didn't expect this, because who keeps a clearing barrel in their home?  

This thread revealed who keeps a clearing barrel in their home.  And by clearing barrel I mean drywall, water heaters, light switches, and stucco façade.  Juggalos.  

I am not a Juggalo.  I will not act like a Juggalo.  

I still feel bad when someone begins a "Tell me about (INSERT GUN, AFTERMARKET PART OR CALIBER HERE)" thread and the only pictures in my photobucket account of that gun, caliber or part are Juggalo influenced pictures with the safety off.  One day soon, I will update my account with recent pictures, so when an ARFCOMer asks about 5.45, .300 BLK, M&P15-22s, or anything else I will not subliminally influence other ARFCOMers who haven't been infected.  

No one should act like they have a small brain.  Even small brains are capable of learning, just they have to work harder.  If you are one of those small brained Juggalos who still think this is my safety or putting a .224" sized hole in your domicile is no big deal and would make a cool story when your Juggalo friends come over, I encourage you to work harder and learn proper weapon safety.  

Think about weapon safety when you're taking a nice, warm, steamy shower.  If you find yourself saying "this is my safety" or "but Drill Sergeant Smith..." quickly move the faucet in your shower to nothing but cold water.  After the shock of the cold water, adjust the water temperature back to a comfortable level.  Think about how nice warm water is.  Think about how horrible ice cold water is in a shower. If you still look at your index finger and think "this is my safety" or "but Drill Sergeant Smith..." then repeat turning your shower's temperature to nothing but cold water.  Eventually this will have a Pavlov effect on you.  I know it will.  It works for mice who probably have even a smaller brain than you do.  

This isn't just a learning exercise because some cold showers are actually the result of improper weapons handling.  You risk a cold shower every time you pull the trigger on a firearm in your home.  

If it can work for a mouse, it can work for a Juggalo.

I originally gave you a concise and accurate explanation of why you were wrong, with no effect



here you claim to have later concluded exactly what I said using your good brain, and then proceed to lament that no one stated it to you plainly

that's not smart friend

Fuckin magnets, how do they work???