Secretary of Defense Ash Carter dispensed with spin today and called it like it is - the Iraqis currently can't or won't fight ISIS, period.  So what's the plan from here?  Carter said that he still doesn't recommend US ground troops.  Shifting back into spin mode, the key part of his statement was that he "hopes" that given more equipment and training the Iraqis will develop the will to fight.  Equipment that has been handed to ISIS over and over, training that has led only to a worsening of the Iraqi army.  So we don't have a plan, we have a hope, based on nothing.

Shias are not going to fight for a Sunni town

Next time we play nation building in the middle east, the first thing we need to do among our allies is establish the office of Commissar.

You can train and arm these guys all day long, but you can't instill in them the will to fight.  At some point, we need to figure out if we really want to help those who can't  or will not help themselves.  Unfortunately, ISIS represents a threat we can not disengage from.

Frankly I'm sick of this bullshit. I'm of the opinion we make it all one big glass parking lot

Can't blame them:  If the Americans don't have the will to fight ISIS, what chance do they have?

Doesn't surprise me much; most of the people that joined the Iraqi Army, joined for the paycheck and not much else. When shit hit the fan, the vast majority would put their shorts on a stick and run for the hills. And now we see the end result of this with ISIS gaining large swatchs of territory with little to no opposition from the IA.

The only people that are giving ISIS a hard time are the Kurdish Peshmerga and the occasional militias.

I'm still shaking my head that all this blood and effort to help Iraq become a stable country was squandered for political expediency.

Lost good friends in that wretched patch of real estate and to lose the country like this is a slap in the face to their memory.

It sucks but its true.

I just wish they had taken a different city like Falluja Sadr City Habbaniya Tehran?

Also I'm wondering why a PMC hasn't tried talking to the Saudi's about financy a private war on ISIS in Iraq?

So what I'm to understand is  Iraqies are total pussies not even willing to fight for them selves. Next you'll tell me their so incompetent  they cant ever do jumping jax's

How many pounds of C4 can you surgically-implant into a goat?

Depending on if you gut it first or not.  IA were using dead animals to hide IED's at one time.  I saw a picture of a dog with a 155 shell hidden inside it.

About 12 reliably.

At 15, it walks around in circles.

Every senior military leader who jumped on board with the 'nation-building', COIN bullshit the politicians were selling should be forced to go to the family of a dead service member and apoligize.
The greatest nation on earth threw thousands of its citizens and trillions of its dollars at a smelly shithole, populated by people who meet none of the standards required to be considered human beings- and somehow could not maintain a military victory.
Now some of them (John McCain) want to go do it again.

Secure our border and remove the savages who have managed to get to our shores.  The Middle East will cease to be a problem if we take appropriate measures to keep Muslim terrorists from coming into contact with average Americans.

While true, half of me doesn't give a fuck since the brainless morons that voted for Obama created this situation to begin with by buying into the dimocRat's anti-war narrative.

Fuck. Them.

Well yeah.... I thought that was their whole shtick?

It's like these people have never met Iraqis or anything....  I mean, I'm married to one and whenever we argue I just tell her, "Look... I'm an American... You're an Iraqi... Who do you think is going to win?"

Shia Militia and IA are already launching a counterattack in Ramadi.

Sheriff Buford T. Justice

"well no shit...."

When Zacheim was comptroller of the pentagon didn't $2.3 Trillion go missing?

"Ground troops" is the the most politically dangerous word in the US politicians vocabulary.  It is so caustic now, nobody can advocate for ground troops, and to even mention the Middle East you first have to say "I don't favor ground troops, but what I think we ought to do is."

Guess what, the reality is, this problem was caused by withdrawing ground troops, and will only be solved by sticking ground troops back in.  Period.  They are trying everything else under the sun to no avail.  

Obama fucked up bad by withdrawing.

I don't disagree, I am having a hard time giving a fuck as well.

What did Saddam do to make his Republican Guard so loyal? Weren't they fanatical badasses until we killed them? While the failed at fighting us, against ISIS soldiers like that would seem to work well. I wonder how Saddam trained them?

Hope.

The fucking head of DoD "hopes" the Iraqi army finds the will to fight.

I hope when the inevitable civil war arrives assholes like Carter will be in charge of the opposition.

Fucking Retards.

Good

Let them destroy themselves within

We won't have to do anything

They failed at fighting us because we dropped bombs on their ass. They didn't stand a chance. We killed the majority of their warriors. The rest are just limp wristed pansy asses. It's like killing all the Conservatives here in America and giving the Army over to liberals. This country would be done for.

 

Reminds me of this.

I think they were vastly overrated.

I mean, you have to say something.



 

As usual, Ron is succinctly correct.

We can't fix culture.

Good question, and it's one I've asked myself many times.

During GW1, the RG mounted attacks against U.S. Marines, and I know this because I witnessed it with my own eyes.  They were shot up during movement to contact while in the offense, and attacked armor units from the 1st MarDiv while they were set up in a coil just after sunrise.  

The RG were politically loyal, volunteers from what I've read, paid and equipped better than the regular Iraqi Army.  Maybe someone can jump in here an tell me if I'm right or wrong, but I believe they were all Sunni, and therefor had tribal identity (and therefor loyalty) to Saddam.

I actually worked with a Iraqi vet during an XCTC here in Idaho in 2013 that was on the same battlefield I was in 1991.  He was regular Iraqi Army.  After the war, he spent 7 years in Saudi Arabia as a refugee before coming to America.  He was in Iraq visiting family when OIF kicked off, ironically.

He told me when he was drafted, he spent six months in training before being sent to his unit as a infantryman.  We were OPFOR, so I was able to see he still retained all that training after over two decades.

Why these guys can't fight, probably stems from a lack of competent leadership.  Saddam didn't suffer fools among the officer corps.

+1

It should have been separated into 3 countries:  Sunni, Shia and Kurd.  There would still be fighting but it would be more manageable.

Awesome

Republican Guard had mostly Sunni enlisted but all Sunni Arab officers, entirely loyal to Saddam, and usually linked to him by tribal affiliations. Because of the "elite" nature of the unit, they received a bit extra funding, better equipment, and training. They were light years ahead of some of the normal IA divisions, many of which were conscript full of disloyal Shi'a, with poor equipment and corrupt officers, especially those hastily raised during emergency situations.

Solutions to problems are not only unwelcome, but are portrayed as racist now......reported

The USA is the most evil country on earth. Troops were loyal to Saddam because he was a benevolent and enlightened leader.

Don't ask me to try and defend Detroit either.

Yet.....

Our prestige on the world stage is suffering tremendous damage-especially in the eyes of our enemies.

Standing by while genocide occurs makes us look worthless and weak.  

Pretty much.  We can do it now, or we will be forced to after their catastrophic attack on the U.S. by a chemical weapon or dirty bomb at the very least, or a full blown nuke if they cAn get one.

 

They were only good at killing unarmed Iraqis.

 

You can.  The Romans did it in Carthage.

 


In fact, ISIS is pretty much using that technique as we speak.

 

Many of those from the Republican Guard that survived the 2003 invasion and subsequent occupation are still insurgents, now fighting against the Shi'a govt with ISIS. Their success isn't based on training Saddam gave them but from surviving against the Americans for 8 years and then developing successful TTPs that work even better against less well trained or supported Iraqi Army units.

These people's problems started a long time ago and wont be fixed in our lifetime. The Saudis have bought enough equipment to get the job done. They have enough money to buy the mercs. Let them fix the problem in their neighborhood.

and so many in the world just wont get that.

That attitude is so going to totally fuck them all.

When ISIS are 60 miles away and they are coming to: conquer your town, burn your home, slaughter your family, sell your wife and daughter as sex slaves, possibly murder you in some painful draw out fashion then maybe you should nut the fuck up and fight.

Yeah, but you'd think they'd at least take their stuff with them when they retreat

But the Iraqis won't.  They don't give a shit about thier wives, children, etc.  They don't care about their country.  They only care about keeping whatever power is currently in charge from killing them.  
Pretending they think and feel like us is part of the problem.

I don't think many really understand the situation in Iraq.

Let's say there was an American company guarding a major installation against insurgents. Early on in the war, the Iraqi insurgents could barely conduct a proper attack without losing significant lives, mostly with small arms attacks, RPGs, some 107mm rockets, sporadic and inaccurate mortars, very poorly coordinated assaults, poor command and control. And even then, the Americans would have to rely on air support to usually stop the enemy's attack. In comparison, the Iraqi Army does not have this luxury. They don't have air support either from assault helicopters or fixed wing, unless the Americans decide to help. They have no real way of being supported in the best of times.  

Now let's look at the realities of fighting ISIS. These aren't the JV team. Yeah, they mostly don't aim their rifles either, fight in man dresses, and act unprofessional. But they are planning and coordinating their attacks. They are using sand tables to plan. They are conducting rehearsals. Their leaders are communicating with each other by ICOM radios the whole time. They are using good tactics, like leading attacks with multiple, upwards of five massive suicide VBIEDs, using vehicles that are armored against small arms fire and RPGs. They drive into the base, blow the entry control point, multiple times, create a breach, and then exploit it with company or even battalion strength dismounted attacks, who are planned to go for specific parts of the base (based on intelligence gathered).

To defend this, the IA has questionable performing conventional forces, often led by corrupt officers and their ranks filled with "ghost soldiers," and there are some higher tier units like SWAT and Iraqi SF that are more willing and capable to fight. But without support, these units will not be able to hold for long. They aren't receiving air support from themselves (other than some small planes firing hellfires they have no real Iraqi air support) and other conventional forces from other towns that can possibly come to support them are tied down themselves by local attacks specifically designed to prevent reinforcements.

In Ramadi, these types of attacks happened throughout October, November, December, and then started again in March before they finally broke and abandoned the city center to ISIS. And yet right now, they are attempting to rally and counterattack. So I wouldn't discount the Iraqis as quickly as many want. To be honest, in Iraq and Afghanistan there have been a bunch of close calls where concerted attacks were only defeated thanks to air support or accurate and massed arty. How well would we have done without those things? I'm 100% sure we would have lost entire bases, with near 100% casualties, with only those playing dead or running away being the survivors. It happened before in American history and to all other countries. Americans don't have a monopoly on heroism, we are only as good as we ensure ourselves to be.

This whole thing is becoming politicized. I find it kind of sad that some will use the words of a democratic hack like SecDef Carter to try to make sense out of what happened. Right now everyone is trying to play the blame game. The Iraqis are doing it, their Kurdish Sunni PM might have to step down over this. Many are stating over there that the Americans specifically pressured the Iraqi govt not to use Shi'a Militia to help support Ramadi before it fell. And now in Washington, you have the US Sec. of Defense saying that the Iraqis lack the will to fight, even though they have been well trained and equipped by the US. I'm calling bullshit on that. Its a simplification designed to divert the responsibility America has in that country.

and the end result of that will be ISIS will be stronger. the attack will fail.