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Posted: 4/26/2015 11:54:30 AM EDT
[#1]
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White lives don't matter  According to the media and the left, they dont. 
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Posted: 4/26/2015 11:57:22 AM EDT
[#2]
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Only because it does not fit your conclusion. The fact is that a black male is far more likely to be killed by the police than a white male. Why that is may be interesting (and fit your message better), but it is a fact. What would be an interesting statistic is the number of black males versus white males who are killed or injured in a "bad shoot" or are the victim of excessive force. Unfortunately, may be very had to get hard numbers on. There certainly is the perception that black males are more likely to be the victims of excessive force. If that perception was consistent with reality, then your conclusion has a serious problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs population statistics vs actual deaths to produce meaningful numbers. (devils advocate here) It's true. While overall, more non-hispanic whites are killed then blacks, if taken as a percentage of population, a higher percentage of blacks are killed. But I don't think that's a good way to look at it. You have to look at the "criminal" population, not the general population, those people of all races that commit crimes. Looking at it that way, blacks have a better chance of making it to jail than whites. A higher percentage of the criminals who are white end up dead. So, there are lots of ways to look at it. But my point is, the preferred narrative is not true. Only because it does not fit your conclusion. The fact is that a black male is far more likely to be killed by the police than a white male. Why that is may be interesting (and fit your message better), but it is a fact. What would be an interesting statistic is the number of black males versus white males who are killed or injured in a "bad shoot" or are the victim of excessive force. Unfortunately, may be very had to get hard numbers on. There certainly is the perception that black males are more likely to be the victims of excessive force. If that perception was consistent with reality, then your conclusion has a serious problem. Not at all. We're talking about criminal population, not general population. We're talking about the application of force against the criminal population resulting in death. More blacks are involved in criminal interdictions. That's just the fact. More blacks end up in jail or prison. That's just a fact. Now, you can make the argument that it should not be the case. That more blacks than whites are falsely targeted by law enforcement, or that blacks who commit crimes are more likely to be arrested than whites who commit crimes, but that's a different discussion. But by all means lets have it. Because it might point out some ugly facts about the war on poverty, central planning, and other government policies, which on the surface appear to have created a lot of long-term social and cultural problems. The current narrative is painting the picture that black criminals are more likely to be killed by police than non-blacks, and that simply is not true. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 11:57:50 AM EDT
[#3]
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That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. This... |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 12:01:56 PM EDT
[#4]
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That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. Winner, winner....shit, we have people here who parrot the narrative Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 12:04:31 PM EDT
[#5]
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Why this is a fact, or should it happen, is the conversation. Turning it into a racial issue, in the long run serves one purpose only. To perpetuate institutionalized and enforced racial preferences. To continue government's involvement in the matter, and justify the continuation of the American race industry. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Perception and media manipulation. Face it, some people regardless of race need to be shot by the popo. The world becomes a better place if they do. Why this is a fact, or should it happen, is the conversation. Turning it into a racial issue, in the long run serves one purpose only. To perpetuate institutionalized and enforced racial preferences. To continue government's involvement in the matter, and justify the continuation of the American race industry. The purpose is to start another race war so the population does what the government can't do for obvious reasons. (got to keep up the illusion that the government is trying to help the people).
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Posted: 4/26/2015 12:23:16 PM EDT
[#6]
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Winner, winner....shit, we have people here who parrot the narrative Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. Winner, winner....shit, we have people here who parrot the narrative Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I find it interesting as well. I can understand why leftist are doing it. It supports their objective for more government. But I must say I find it interesting that others are directly, or indirectly supporting the narrative. Why is that? When so many diverse, and sometime opposing, groups support the current narrative it certainly makes it tougher to get to the real issues. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 12:38:21 PM EDT
[#7]
The "fact" makes for a poor argument without looking at the ratio related to population size.
They are just going to counter with, "well, blacks are overrepresented in the deaths at the hands of police." If they are 13% of the population but 50% of the deaths, then there goes your argument. I don't know the stats, but I can guarantee you that they are overrepresented. I'll let your imaginations run wild as to why that is. I had a professor try to put down a student about welfare, saying more whites were on it than blacks. Well, no shit... but how does it look as a proportion to total population makeup? |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 12:49:57 PM EDT
[#8]
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The "fact" makes for a poor argument without looking at the ratio related to population size. They are just going to counter with, "well, blacks are overrepresented in the deaths at the hands of police." If they are 13% of the population but 50% of the deaths, then there goes your argument. I don't know the stats, but I can guarantee you that they are overrepresented. I'll let your imaginations run wild as to why that is. I had a professor try to put down a student about welfare, saying more whites were on it than blacks. Well, no shit... but how does it look as a proportion to total population makeup? In both lists I saw (1999-2011)and preliminary for 2014, it was pretty much 2-1 with the total number below 5000...for 15 years. 300 million people, just under 900K LE total, the facts just don't support the screaming from the left....according to them it's "Open Season " Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:06:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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The "fact" makes for a poor argument without looking at the ratio related to population size. They are just going to counter with, "well, blacks are overrepresented in the deaths at the hands of police." If they are 13% of the population but 50% of the deaths, then there goes your argument. I don't know the stats, but I can guarantee you that they are overrepresented. I'll let your imaginations run wild as to why that is. I had a professor try to put down a student about welfare, saying more whites were on it than blacks. Well, no shit... but how does it look as a proportion to total population makeup? That's a valid conversation. But it's not THIS conversation. Like I said, by all means, let's have it. The first thing we have to do is take an honest look at who has been killed by law enforcement and more importantly why. Over 5000 people have been killed by law enforcement since the beginning of this century. About 1500 of those people have been black, about 3500 of other races. A disproportionate percentage of the black population are arrested, convicted, and jail for crimes. That's an indisputable fact. The first question to answer is whether or not this phenomena is legally justified. Are more blacks legally arrested, convicted, and jailed for crimes. Or, are they being "illegally" arrested, convicted, and jailed for crimes. The evidence seems to support that the vast majority of the interdictions are "lawful", or "legally" justified. Then the question can then turn to why is this occurring? We can debate the laws themselves. Should they be laws? That's a valid conversation. We might make the argument that there are too many laws, which black people are prone to break. That's a valid conversation. We can ask ourselves what other reasons might lead to the disproportionately high criminality of the black population? That's a valid conversation. We might make the argument that certain government policies have failed to achieve their stated objectives. That they've actually contributed to this problem in many ways. That's a valid conversation, and I believe it is the part of the conversation that many wish to avoid. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:09:56 PM EDT
[#10]
That's a lot more eloquent than how I would have summed up the issue.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:10:09 PM EDT
[#11]
We should riot, and loot, and randomly assault black people...no, wait, we'd get shot by LE if we did that.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:12:38 PM EDT
[#12]
The real issue is not the numbers but the percentage of police shootings that were unjustified. That, however, would be a very difficult statistic to figure out with any degree of certainty.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:48:41 PM EDT
[#13]
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The real issue is not the numbers but the percentage of police shootings that were unjustified. That, however, would be a very difficult statistic to figure out with any degree of certainty. That's right. While I agree with you that the data is problematic, I don't think it's beyond use. We can look at every single case, and divide them into three categories, those which are beyond reasonable question justified, and unjustified, and those cases which are questionable. Every single shooting, and homicide is back up by records and inquire. So it should be fairly simple. Now, is the data completely accurate? No. But it should be accurate enough to identify a problem, and establish a patteren. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:56:44 PM EDT
[#14]
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In both lists I saw (1999-2011)and preliminary for 2014, it was pretty much 2-1 with the total number below 5000...for 15 years. 300 million people, just under 900K LE total, the facts just don't support the screaming from the left....according to them it's "Open Season " Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The "fact" makes for a poor argument without looking at the ratio related to population size. They are just going to counter with, "well, blacks are overrepresented in the deaths at the hands of police." If they are 13% of the population but 50% of the deaths, then there goes your argument. I don't know the stats, but I can guarantee you that they are overrepresented. I'll let your imaginations run wild as to why that is. I had a professor try to put down a student about welfare, saying more whites were on it than blacks. Well, no shit... but how does it look as a proportion to total population makeup? In both lists I saw (1999-2011)and preliminary for 2014, it was pretty much 2-1 with the total number below 5000...for 15 years. 300 million people, just under 900K LE total, the facts just don't support the screaming from the left....according to them it's "Open Season " Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile That's certainly the impression one might get from the media. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:57:22 PM EDT
[#15]
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Only because it does not fit your conclusion. The fact is that a black male is far more likely to be killed by the police than a white male. Why that is may be interesting (and fit your message better), but it is a fact. What would be an interesting statistic is the number of black males versus white males who are killed or injured in a "bad shoot" or are the victim of excessive force. Unfortunately, may be very had to get hard numbers on. There certainly is the perception that black males are more likely to be the victims of excessive force. If that perception was consistent with reality, then your conclusion has a serious problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs population statistics vs actual deaths to produce meaningful numbers. (devils advocate here) It's true. While overall, more non-hispanic whites are killed then blacks, if taken as a percentage of population, a higher percentage of blacks are killed. But I don't think that's a good way to look at it. You have to look at the "criminal" population, not the general population, those people of all races that commit crimes. Looking at it that way, blacks have a better chance of making it to jail than whites. A higher percentage of the criminals who are white end up dead. So, there are lots of ways to look at it. But my point is, the preferred narrative is not true. Only because it does not fit your conclusion. The fact is that a black male is far more likely to be killed by the police than a white male. Why that is may be interesting (and fit your message better), but it is a fact. What would be an interesting statistic is the number of black males versus white males who are killed or injured in a "bad shoot" or are the victim of excessive force. Unfortunately, may be very had to get hard numbers on. There certainly is the perception that black males are more likely to be the victims of excessive force. If that perception was consistent with reality, then your conclusion has a serious problem. Agreed. The part in red should be the focus of the discussions. Pissing in the wind with data that can be manipulated 3 ways from Sunday is pointless masturbation fantasy fodder. What plays out on tv and the interwebs is a symptom of the real issue that needs to be addressed. Tail wagging the dog and all that. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:58:10 PM EDT
[#16]
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That's right. While I agree with you that the data is problematic, I don't think it's beyond use. We can look at every single case, and divide them into three categories, those which are beyond reasonable question justified, and unjustified, and those cases which are questionable. Every single shooting, and homicide is back up by records and inquire. So it should be fairly simple. Now, is the data completely accurate? No. But it should be accurate enough to identify a problem, and establish a patteren. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The real issue is not the numbers but the percentage of police shootings that were unjustified. That, however, would be a very difficult statistic to figure out with any degree of certainty. That's right. While I agree with you that the data is problematic, I don't think it's beyond use. We can look at every single case, and divide them into three categories, those which are beyond reasonable question justified, and unjustified, and those cases which are questionable. Every single shooting, and homicide is back up by records and inquire. So it should be fairly simple. Now, is the data completely accurate? No. But it should be accurate enough to identify a problem, and establish a patteren. From what I have heard, there is no data -- none. Cops keep detailed records of how many rounds they shoot but they don't have any corresponding records for who they shot them at, or who was hit. (Personally, I can't imagine why they would not want to report each and every hit, but it is what it is.) So what data are you talking about? Something you made up? |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:58:37 PM EDT
[#17]
"Cops murdering Blacks" is contrived to keep Blacks as slaves on the Democrat Party plantation.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 1:59:57 PM EDT
[#18]
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"Cops murdering Blacks" is contrived to keep Blacks as slaves on the Democrat Party plantation. Yeah, never mind that the numbers don't exist. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:03:39 PM EDT
[#19]
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From what I have heard, there is no data -- none. Cops keep detailed records of how many rounds they shoot but they don't have any corresponding records for who they shot them at, or who was hit. (Personally, I can't imagine why they would not want to report each and every hit, but it is what it is.) So what data are you talking about? Something you made up? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The real issue is not the numbers but the percentage of police shootings that were unjustified. That, however, would be a very difficult statistic to figure out with any degree of certainty. That's right. While I agree with you that the data is problematic, I don't think it's beyond use. We can look at every single case, and divide them into three categories, those which are beyond reasonable question justified, and unjustified, and those cases which are questionable. Every single shooting, and homicide is back up by records and inquire. So it should be fairly simple. Now, is the data completely accurate? No. But it should be accurate enough to identify a problem, and establish a patteren. From what I have heard, there is no data -- none. Cops keep detailed records of how many rounds they shoot but they don't have any corresponding records for who they shot them at, or who was hit. (Personally, I can't imagine why they would not want to report each and every hit, but it is what it is.) So what data are you talking about? Something you made up? There is data on every single police shooting, and everyone of them involves some level of inquiry. Do you really think police shoot people and then go for donuts? |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:04:51 PM EDT
[#20]
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With what's going on in Baltimore, and other areas of the country, you would think that more black people are dying at the hands of government law enforcement. But the truth is, when it comes to being killed by law enforcement, blacks are a minority. More whites are killed then blacks. Why isn't anyone talking about this fact? If people want to have a conversation about the application of violence in law enforcement then they should have it. But it's not a racial issue. Cite? |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:06:05 PM EDT
[#21]
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There is data on every single police shooting, and everyone of them involves some level of inquiry. Do you really think police shoot people and then go for donuts? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The real issue is not the numbers but the percentage of police shootings that were unjustified. That, however, would be a very difficult statistic to figure out with any degree of certainty. That's right. While I agree with you that the data is problematic, I don't think it's beyond use. We can look at every single case, and divide them into three categories, those which are beyond reasonable question justified, and unjustified, and those cases which are questionable. Every single shooting, and homicide is back up by records and inquire. So it should be fairly simple. Now, is the data completely accurate? No. But it should be accurate enough to identify a problem, and establish a patteren. From what I have heard, there is no data -- none. Cops keep detailed records of how many rounds they shoot but they don't have any corresponding records for who they shot them at, or who was hit. (Personally, I can't imagine why they would not want to report each and every hit, but it is what it is.) So what data are you talking about? Something you made up? There is data on every single police shooting, and everyone of them involves some level of inquiry. Do you really think police shoot people and then go for donuts? Good. I am glad of that. Now where is the link to the compiled data? It is my understanding that no one has ever been able to find it. ETA: To help you out, it is certainly my understanding that the cops do all kinds of paperwork every time they shoot someone. However, it is also my understanding that they have no real requirement to REPORT it the same way they report all kinds of other trivial things. Therefore, with no requirement to REPORT it to any official place, they simply don't add up the numbers at all. Therefore, no one really knows what colors got shot in what numbers. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any call for law enforcement to get those numbers reported. You would think that, if your assumption was correct, reporting them would work in their favor. Can't imagine why they wouldn't want to report who they shoot. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:20:38 PM EDT
[#22]
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No, no one is talking about this. The reason is simple, there are more whites than blacks and therefore more opportunities for whites to have violent encounters with others. This. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:21:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Disproportionate to their percent of the population?
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:23:24 PM EDT
[#24]
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That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:26:08 PM EDT
[#25]
#unreportedlivesmatter
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:27:21 PM EDT
[#26]
More overall? Or more by %?
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:28:44 PM EDT
[#27]
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That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. Yeah, never mind that OP has not posted any link to the facts he claimed. Maybe you can do it. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:30:34 PM EDT
[#28]
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More overall? Or more by %? This is what i wondered overall can be misleading can't it? |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:31:23 PM EDT
[#29]
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More overall? Or more by %? More as in "Don't really have a clue because there are no official numbers." That is, you can get an official FBI count of every person arrested for minor burglary, by race, along with state and national totals. But no such number exists for people shot by police. You can even get numbers on the exact number of rounds they have fired. You just can't get an official count of who they hit. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:32:02 PM EDT
[#30]
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This is what i wondered overall can be misleading can't it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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More overall? Or more by %? This is what i wondered overall can be misleading can't it? And both are bullshit unless you actually have some numbers. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:33:16 PM EDT
[#31]
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#unreportedlivesmatter They're certainly ahead of black people https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDe6vYZWAAEcG4O.jpg:large So, the only numbers we can find are compiled by some web site? There are no official numbers? Why wouldn't there be any official numbers? Wouldn't that be a problem by itself? |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:35:09 PM EDT
[#32]
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You can get a lot of statistics from the FBI's website. Or you can look at the NACJD website, it slices and dices a lot of crime statistics. Also the CATO institute keeps a lot of data. Where are you getting 85%? Non-hispanic whites don't make up 85% of the population. Also, it's a mistake to look at the total population. You have to look just at the criminal population. A higher percentage of the black population commits crime. That's just a fact. If you want to have a conversation about whether or not that's true, that's ANOTHER conversation. Not this one. This one is about whether or not blacks who commit crimes are disproportionately killed by police. The facts clearly illustrate that is simply not true. The only thing that supports that impression is YouTube, Livelink, and the media in general, and it's a false impression. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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With what's going on in Baltimore, and other areas of the country, you would think that more black people are dying at the hands of government law enforcement. But the truth is, when it comes to being killed by law enforcement, blacks are a minority. More whites are killed then blacks. Why isn't anyone talking about this fact? If people want to have a conversation about the application of violence in law enforcement then they should have it. But it's not a racial issue. Link? I would like to point this out to people when they start talking this BS. OTOH, statistically it should be around 85% of those killed are white non-black. I bet it's much lower though and reason is not because of racist LE....... You can get a lot of statistics from the FBI's website. Or you can look at the NACJD website, it slices and dices a lot of crime statistics. Also the CATO institute keeps a lot of data. Where are you getting 85%? Non-hispanic whites don't make up 85% of the population. Also, it's a mistake to look at the total population. You have to look just at the criminal population. A higher percentage of the black population commits crime. That's just a fact. If you want to have a conversation about whether or not that's true, that's ANOTHER conversation. Not this one. This one is about whether or not blacks who commit crimes are disproportionately killed by police. The facts clearly illustrate that is simply not true. The only thing that supports that impression is YouTube, Livelink, and the media in general, and it's a false impression. FIFM . Sorry, I had in my mind that blacks are roughly 15% of the population and categorized everyone else as whitey.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:38:23 PM EDT
[#33]
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FIFM . Sorry, I had in my mind that blacks are roughly 15% of the population and categorized everyone else as whitey.Quote HistoryQuoted:
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With what's going on in Baltimore, and other areas of the country, you would think that more black people are dying at the hands of government law enforcement. But the truth is, when it comes to being killed by law enforcement, blacks are a minority. More whites are killed then blacks. Why isn't anyone talking about this fact? If people want to have a conversation about the application of violence in law enforcement then they should have it. But it's not a racial issue. Link? I would like to point this out to people when they start talking this BS. OTOH, statistically it should be around 85% of those killed are white non-black. I bet it's much lower though and reason is not because of racist LE....... You can get a lot of statistics from the FBI's website. Or you can look at the NACJD website, it slices and dices a lot of crime statistics. Also the CATO institute keeps a lot of data. Where are you getting 85%? Non-hispanic whites don't make up 85% of the population. Also, it's a mistake to look at the total population. You have to look just at the criminal population. A higher percentage of the black population commits crime. That's just a fact. If you want to have a conversation about whether or not that's true, that's ANOTHER conversation. Not this one. This one is about whether or not blacks who commit crimes are disproportionately killed by police. The facts clearly illustrate that is simply not true. The only thing that supports that impression is YouTube, Livelink, and the media in general, and it's a false impression. FIFM . Sorry, I had in my mind that blacks are roughly 15% of the population and categorized everyone else as whitey.I asked for the link, too. I didn't get one, either. The fact is that nobody knows because the cops don't report the numbers. They report everyone arrested for every type of crime, broken out by crime and color, and every shot fired, but they don't report who they shot. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:40:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Is race the mortar issue here, or the fact that police are killing too many people of all races?
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:41:37 PM EDT
[#35]
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Good. I am glad of that. Now where is the link to the compiled data? It is my understanding that no one has ever been able to find it. ETA: To help you out, it is certainly my understanding that the cops do all kinds of paperwork every time they shoot someone. However, it is also my understanding that they have no real requirement to REPORT it the same way they report all kinds of other trivial things. Therefore, with no requirement to REPORT it to any official place, they simply don't add up the numbers at all. Therefore, no one really knows what colors got shot in what numbers. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any call for law enforcement to get those numbers reported. You would think that, if your assumption was correct, reporting them would work in their favor. Can't imagine why they wouldn't want to report who they shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The real issue is not the numbers but the percentage of police shootings that were unjustified. That, however, would be a very difficult statistic to figure out with any degree of certainty. That's right. While I agree with you that the data is problematic, I don't think it's beyond use. We can look at every single case, and divide them into three categories, those which are beyond reasonable question justified, and unjustified, and those cases which are questionable. Every single shooting, and homicide is back up by records and inquire. So it should be fairly simple. Now, is the data completely accurate? No. But it should be accurate enough to identify a problem, and establish a patteren. From what I have heard, there is no data -- none. Cops keep detailed records of how many rounds they shoot but they don't have any corresponding records for who they shot them at, or who was hit. (Personally, I can't imagine why they would not want to report each and every hit, but it is what it is.) So what data are you talking about? Something you made up? There is data on every single police shooting, and everyone of them involves some level of inquiry. Do you really think police shoot people and then go for donuts? Good. I am glad of that. Now where is the link to the compiled data? It is my understanding that no one has ever been able to find it. ETA: To help you out, it is certainly my understanding that the cops do all kinds of paperwork every time they shoot someone. However, it is also my understanding that they have no real requirement to REPORT it the same way they report all kinds of other trivial things. Therefore, with no requirement to REPORT it to any official place, they simply don't add up the numbers at all. Therefore, no one really knows what colors got shot in what numbers. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any call for law enforcement to get those numbers reported. You would think that, if your assumption was correct, reporting them would work in their favor. Can't imagine why they wouldn't want to report who they shoot. Let's be clear. A lack of data and consolidating and reporting that data are two very different things. Police use of deadly force, and an inquiry into that use force, is there. Consolidating and reporting of that data into a conveniently accessible format is not currently there. Which brings up a very good point. In 1994 congress tasked the attorney general to consolidate the data, which was never done. The law of the land, is to compile and report the data. But no one is forcing police agencies to do so. That needs to be corrected. Right now we have fairly good estimates, but they aren't as good as they can be. This is a glaring problem. Police agencies are not complying with the law. This creates an information vacuum, and it should be corrected. My guess is the last thing government wants to do is highlight what it truly is, all it truly is, force and violence. The public seeing the truth may actually begin to question certain laws and policies. They might become more uncomfortable with certain aspects of law enforcement's budgets. But that's just a guess. But make no mistake the data is there. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:41:44 PM EDT
[#36]
The Truth is impervious to the facts.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:46:48 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm sorry, but percentage rates and per capita rates are better/more specific arguments to make. Raw numbers do not tell the full story. I'm sure it could be broken down into areas of the country as well.
I'm done with the victimhood mentality, but I do believe that solid arguments based on indisputable facts help minimize ignorance. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:49:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's be clear. A lack of data and consolidating and reporting that data are two very different things. Police use of deadly force, and an inquiry into that use force, is there. Consolidating and reporting of that data into a conveniently accessible format is not currently there. Which brings up a very good point. In 1994 congress tasked the attorney general to consolidate the data, which was never done. The law of the land, is to compile and report the data. But no one is forcing police agencies to do so. That needs to be corrected. Right now we have fairly good estimates, but they aren't as good as they can be. This is a glaring problem. Police agencies are not complying with the law. This creates an information vacuum, and it should be corrected. My guess is the last thing government wants to do is highlight what it truly is, all it truly is, force and violence. The public seeing the truth may actually begin to question certain laws and policies. They might become more uncomfortable with certain aspects of law enforcement's budgets. But that's just a guess. But make no mistake the data is there. Well, it comes down to this. If the data was there in any way that you could verify the truth of your statement, then you could simply provide the link already asked for, multiple times. Instead of a simple link, we get a long-winded explanation. And you are telling me that someone as smart as you would accept that routine if someone else tried it on you? Show me the link. Otherwise, your statement is BS because you simply don't know. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:51:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sorry, but percentage rates and per capita rates are better/more specific arguments to make. Raw numbers do not tell the full story. I'm sure it could be broken down into areas of the country as well. I'm done with the victimhood mentality, but I do believe that solid arguments based on indisputable facts help minimize ignorance. The DOJ publishes a whole shitload of stats on everything. Just not the one that OP claims. So even the raw numbers are missing. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:54:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Yes, but blacks have to be shot at the proper ratio to their numbers in society. Over 10-12% and we protest.
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:56:24 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but blacks have to be shot at the proper ratio to their numbers in society. Over 10-12% and we protest. How about we just start by getting an accurate count so somebody here has some clue what we are talking about? Ooops, I forgot, this is GD. Ain't nobody got time for dat . . . |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:56:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not at all. We're talking about criminal population, not general population. We're talking about the application of force against the criminal population resulting in death. More blacks are involved in criminal interdictions. That's just the fact. More blacks end up in jail or prison. That's just a fact. Now, you can make the argument that it should not be the case. That more blacks than whites are falsely targeted by law enforcement, or that blacks who commit crimes are more likely to be arrested than whites who commit crimes, but that's a different discussion. But by all means lets have it. Because it might point out some ugly facts about the war on poverty, central planning, and other government policies, which on the surface appear to have created a lot of long-term social and cultural problems. The current narrative is painting the picture that black criminals are more likely to be killed by police than non-blacks, and that simply is not true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Needs population statistics vs actual deaths to produce meaningful numbers. (devils advocate here) It's true. While overall, more non-hispanic whites are killed then blacks, if taken as a percentage of population, a higher percentage of blacks are killed. But I don't think that's a good way to look at it. You have to look at the "criminal" population, not the general population, those people of all races that commit crimes. Looking at it that way, blacks have a better chance of making it to jail than whites. A higher percentage of the criminals who are white end up dead. So, there are lots of ways to look at it. But my point is, the preferred narrative is not true. Only because it does not fit your conclusion. The fact is that a black male is far more likely to be killed by the police than a white male. Why that is may be interesting (and fit your message better), but it is a fact. What would be an interesting statistic is the number of black males versus white males who are killed or injured in a "bad shoot" or are the victim of excessive force. Unfortunately, may be very had to get hard numbers on. There certainly is the perception that black males are more likely to be the victims of excessive force. If that perception was consistent with reality, then your conclusion has a serious problem. Not at all. We're talking about criminal population, not general population. We're talking about the application of force against the criminal population resulting in death. More blacks are involved in criminal interdictions. That's just the fact. More blacks end up in jail or prison. That's just a fact. Now, you can make the argument that it should not be the case. That more blacks than whites are falsely targeted by law enforcement, or that blacks who commit crimes are more likely to be arrested than whites who commit crimes, but that's a different discussion. But by all means lets have it. Because it might point out some ugly facts about the war on poverty, central planning, and other government policies, which on the surface appear to have created a lot of long-term social and cultural problems. The current narrative is painting the picture that black criminals are more likely to be killed by police than non-blacks, and that simply is not true. I think the issue is also that blacks who are not criminals are more likely to be killed, subject to excessive force, and subject to harassment than whites who are not criminals. You have assumed that those being killed or subject to excessive force are all criminals, which is obviously not true. In addition, I think that the chances of a black criminal being killed or subject to excessive force may be greater than a white criminal. Just because there are proportionally more black criminals than white criminals does not mean that the chances of each being killed by the police are the same. You would need to compare the percentage of white criminals being killed to the percentage of black criminals being killed. Your original point that more whites are killed by the police than blacks is an apples to oranges comparison. Arfcom has a tendency to assume any black who has a violent encounter with the police is a criminal. I am convinced that if Randy Weaver were black, his fan base on arfcom would be non-existent. As for your point about why blacks make up a disproportional number of criminals, that is an interesting issue, but will only distract from the actual issue of whether or not blacks are disproportionately represented in the number of victims of wrongful police shootings and excessive force. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 2:58:47 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is race the mortar issue here, or the fact that police are killing too many people of all races? The facts that lead up to and after a LE shooting is what should matter. Race is a distraction tactic the useful idiots eat up like a fat man at a buffet. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:01:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The facts that lead up to and after a LE shooting is what should matter. Race is a distraction tactic the useful idiots eat up like a fat man at a buffet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is race the mortar issue here, or the fact that police are killing too many people of all races? The facts that lead up to and after a LE shooting is what should matter. Race is a distraction tactic the useful idiots eat up like a fat man at a buffet. Well, they don't even report the count, so you can be sure they don't report the circumstances. So OP made it up. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:33:52 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm sorry, but percentage rates and per capita rates are better/more specific arguments to make. Raw numbers do not tell the full story. I'm sure it could be broken down into areas of the country as well. I'm done with the victimhood mentality, but I do believe that solid arguments based on indisputable facts help minimize ignorance. Come on! Black people are arrested, convicted, and incarcerated in a disproportionately high number. That's a fact. As I see it for your argument to be valid, you have to be disputing the legality of this phenomena. You must be questioning whether or not this fact occurs because of racism, or police specifically targeting black ethnic groups. That's a good conversation to have. One I don't happen to agree with, but let's have it. Criminals taken as group (white, black, hispanic, asian, pacific islander, native american, etc included) blacks are disproportionately arrested, convicted, and incarcerated. But out of that same group of criminals whites are disproportionately killed. If you want to have a conversation regarding why blacks seemingly commit a disproportionate number of crimes, then by all means let's have it. The last thing I want to see happen at the local LEO "shift meeting" is a discussion about needing to increase interdictions with white people because they're behind on their quota. "BOYS, shake em down hard, try to get em to run, or fight back...we need to up our white count" |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:37:12 PM EDT
[#46]
because white people don't riot over fucksticks that break the law and resist arrest.
never heard a white mother claim her kid 'dindu nuffin wrong!' just sayin.... |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:40:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Come on! Black people are arrested, convicted, and incarcerated in a disproportionately high number. That's a fact. As I see it for your argument to be valid, you have to be disputing the legality of this phenomena. You must be questioning whether or not this fact occurs because of racism, or police specifically targeting black ethnic groups. That's a good conversation to have. One I don't happen to agree with, but let's have it. Criminals taken as group (white, black, hispanic, asian, pacific islander, native american, etc included) blacks are disproportionately arrested, convicted, and incarcerated. But out of that same group of criminals whites are disproportionately killed. If you want to have a conversation regarding why blacks seemingly commit a disproportionate number of crimes, then by all means let's have it. The last thing I want to see happen at the local LEO "shift meeting" is a discussion about needing to increase interdictions with white people because they're behind the quota. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm sorry, but percentage rates and per capita rates are better/more specific arguments to make. Raw numbers do not tell the full story. I'm sure it could be broken down into areas of the country as well. I'm done with the victimhood mentality, but I do believe that solid arguments based on indisputable facts help minimize ignorance. Come on! Black people are arrested, convicted, and incarcerated in a disproportionately high number. That's a fact. As I see it for your argument to be valid, you have to be disputing the legality of this phenomena. You must be questioning whether or not this fact occurs because of racism, or police specifically targeting black ethnic groups. That's a good conversation to have. One I don't happen to agree with, but let's have it. Criminals taken as group (white, black, hispanic, asian, pacific islander, native american, etc included) blacks are disproportionately arrested, convicted, and incarcerated. But out of that same group of criminals whites are disproportionately killed. If you want to have a conversation regarding why blacks seemingly commit a disproportionate number of crimes, then by all means let's have it. The last thing I want to see happen at the local LEO "shift meeting" is a discussion about needing to increase interdictions with white people because they're behind the quota. Yeah, we have a lot of data on that. See the Sourcebook of Criminal Justice Statistics. One of the things you will find is that blacks are vastly overrepresented in drug crimes, more likely to be convicted for them, and more likely to receive jail after conviction. Drug crimes, in particular, stand out for the differences in the racial stats. But they don't have any numbers of how many people got shot by cops. That was the original point of your thread, wasn't it? And, actually, he is right about his point. In order for the numbers to be racially equal, the whites would have to get shot about six times more often. If the numbers are equal, and they are only a small percentage of the population, then that would indicate a problem. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:41:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. This. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:42:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That fact doesn't support their narrative or their agenda. This. Read the thread. The OP has yet to establish his "fact." But don't let that stop you. It didn't stop anyone else. |
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Posted: 4/26/2015 3:55:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Maybe I missed a link earlier. The numbers below were pulled from here. http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2228
There are approximately 400 people killed during arrests each year by law enforcement. Of those killed, 42% are white, 32% are black. More whites killed than blacks. Of those killed, 75% were engaged in a violent offense Between 2003 and 2009 there were 97,700,000 arrests. During that time there were 2,931 arrest related deaths classified as homicides. So the odds of being killed by police are .0003 if you get arrested. If my math is correct
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