User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 7:46:27 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am going to go with qualified yes. You can make a load that will with ease at a reasonable range and you can build a load that wont. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 7:50:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It won't even come close to stopping black tip. The 2 dings you see on the armor plate are M193 and M855 from 50 yards. The hole is M2AP. http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww259/trobertson5-0/101_0897_zps71cb671e.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've seen 7.62x51 AP go through 1/4" AR500, so I'm would be shocked if the steel rifle plate stops it. It won't even come close to stopping black tip. The 2 dings you see on the armor plate are M193 and M855 from 50 yards. The hole is M2AP. http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww259/trobertson5-0/101_0897_zps71cb671e.jpg  Nevermind, ar500armor.com already saved me the trouble. I thought I remember seeing they said it would stop it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 7:59:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've seen 7.62x51 AP go through 1/4" AR500, so I'm would be shocked if the steel rifle plate stops it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a 308 and really thick piece of steel? If so I can send you a few of these to test- http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C841E6F-FBDA-4264-9550-CA7EA7CC5EA5.jpg Want to do an AP video? I took one apart, and while I'm not sure what the penetrator is made of it's pretty cool nonetheless. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C111312-5D26-4171-A27A-98ABB9B42876.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg I've seen 7.62x51 AP go through 1/4" AR500, so I'm would be shocked if the steel rifle plate stops it. I have already put some of my reloads thru 3/8" and 1/2" steel plate. While this was not AR500 it was pretty impressive. I need to chronograph my loads to check the speed. I assume they are 2800-2900 FPS. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 8:02:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://youtu.be/jB1uq1T9SHg Nevermind, ar500armor.com already saved me the trouble. I thought I remember seeing they said it would stop it. Damn, that was pretty impressive. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 8:24:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 http://youtu.be/jB1uq1T9SHg
Nevermind, ar500armor.com already saved me the trouble. I thought I remember seeing they said it would stop it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've seen 7.62x51 AP go through 1/4" AR500, so I'm would be shocked if the steel rifle plate stops it. It won't even come close to stopping black tip. The 2 dings you see on the armor plate are M193 and M855 from 50 yards. The hole is M2AP. http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww259/trobertson5-0/101_0897_zps71cb671e.jpg http://youtu.be/jB1uq1T9SHg
Nevermind, ar500armor.com already saved me the trouble. I thought I remember seeing they said it would stop it. Who manufactures .308 Black Tip? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 8:38:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have already put some of my reloads thru 3/8" and 1/2" steel plate. While this was not AR500 it was pretty impressive. I need to chronograph my loads to check the speed. I assume they are 2800-2900 FPS. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do you have a 308 and really thick piece of steel? If so I can send you a few of these to test- http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C841E6F-FBDA-4264-9550-CA7EA7CC5EA5.jpg Want to do an AP video? I took one apart, and while I'm not sure what the penetrator is made of it's pretty cool nonetheless. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C111312-5D26-4171-A27A-98ABB9B42876.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg I've seen 7.62x51 AP go through 1/4" AR500, so I'm would be shocked if the steel rifle plate stops it. I have already put some of my reloads thru 3/8" and 1/2" steel plate. While this was not AR500 it was pretty impressive. I need to chronograph my loads to check the speed. I assume they are 2800-2900 FPS.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 8:41:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who manufactures .308 Black Tip? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've seen 7.62x51 AP go through 1/4" AR500, so I'm would be shocked if the steel rifle plate stops it. It won't even come close to stopping black tip. The 2 dings you see on the armor plate are M193 and M855 from 50 yards. The hole is M2AP. http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww259/trobertson5-0/101_0897_zps71cb671e.jpg http://youtu.be/jB1uq1T9SHgNevermind, ar500armor.com already saved me the trouble. I thought I remember seeing they said it would stop it. Who manufactures .308 Black Tip? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 8:56:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I'm not sure if they pulled M2 AP bullets and loaded them or what. After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel. 
I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 9:06:18 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck yes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a 308 and really thick piece of steel? If so I can send you a few of these to test- http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C841E6F-FBDA-4264-9550-CA7EA7CC5EA5.jpg Want to do an AP video? I took one apart, and while I'm not sure what the penetrator is made of it's pretty cool nonetheless. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C111312-5D26-4171-A27A-98ABB9B42876.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg Do you have a plate? I will donate a 3/8" piece of AR500 if you do not. Hell I'll donate you one anyway as long as you shoot it with something and post video. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 9:13:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel.
I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:I'm not sure if they pulled M2 AP bullets and loaded them or what. After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel.
I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Just over 5 lbs for the 10x12 light weight cut, 8 for the 10x12 shooters cut. Did they say it had a ceramic overlay? I thought that coating was just to prevent the wearer from getting a face full of spall. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 9:24:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just over 5 lbs for the 10x12 light weight cut, 8 for the 10x12 shooters cut. Did they say it had a ceramic overlay? I thought that coating was just to prevent the wearer from getting a face full of spall. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:I'm not sure if they pulled M2 AP bullets and loaded them or what. After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel.
I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Just over 5 lbs for the 10x12 light weight cut, 8 for the 10x12 shooters cut. Did they say it had a ceramic overlay? I thought that coating was just to prevent the wearer from getting a face full of spall. There is ceramic ablation in the video. A 3 pound swing for a different cut? What does the light-weight cut look like? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:26:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel. I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:I'm not sure if they pulled M2 AP bullets and loaded them or what. After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel. I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Their Level III+ plate is just steel with the frag liner, it weighs about 9 lbs according to my bathroom scale. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:27:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you have a plate? I will donate a 3/8" piece of AR500 if you do not. Hell I'll donate you one anyway as long as you shoot it with something and post video. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do you have a 308 and really thick piece of steel? If so I can send you a few of these to test- http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C841E6F-FBDA-4264-9550-CA7EA7CC5EA5.jpg Want to do an AP video? I took one apart, and while I'm not sure what the penetrator is made of it's pretty cool nonetheless. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/4C111312-5D26-4171-A27A-98ABB9B42876.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/AD093E74-763D-486D-90C5-7394EDD9A214.jpg Do you have a plate? I will donate a 3/8" piece of AR500 if you do not. Hell I'll donate you one anyway as long as you shoot it with something and post video. I have some 3/8" AR500 targets so I wouldn't have you spend your money to ship one, what do you want to see shot at it? The black tip? I wasn't going to bother trying that against the III+ since the company already did it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:29:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is ceramic ablation in the video. A 3 pound swing for a different cut? What does the light-weight cut look like? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:I'm not sure if they pulled M2 AP bullets and loaded them or what. After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel. I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Just over 5 lbs for the 10x12 light weight cut, 8 for the 10x12 shooters cut. Did they say it had a ceramic overlay? I thought that coating was just to prevent the wearer from getting a face full of spall. There is ceramic ablation in the video. A 3 pound swing for a different cut? What does the light-weight cut look like? Please post a screenshot or something of the ceramic that you're seeing, according to the company it's just AR500 steel (and the frag coating). |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:31:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is ceramic ablation in the video. A 3 pound swing for a different cut? What does the light-weight cut look like? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:I'm not sure if they pulled M2 AP bullets and loaded them or what. After watching the video more closely, they decided to put ceramic on top of steel.
I'm sure that must be light as a feather. My guess would be north of 12 pounds for a level III+, while a decent level IV weighs in at 8 pounds. Still, I have little doubt that someone will be along to trumpet how the steel is better than ceramic, ignoring the fact that even a steel armor manufacturer had to add ceramic to bring their product up to adequate spec. Just over 5 lbs for the 10x12 light weight cut, 8 for the 10x12 shooters cut. Did they say it had a ceramic overlay? I thought that coating was just to prevent the wearer from getting a face full of spall. There is ceramic ablation in the video. A 3 pound swing for a different cut? What does the light-weight cut look like? Lighter. It's on their website. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:47:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:52:09 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. AR500 Armor® level III+ lightweight body armor is capable of defeating 5.56x45 M193, 5.56x45 M855/SS109, 7.62x39 (AK), and 7.62x51 M80 Ball (.308 Winchester) rounds. Independent and in-house testing has shown our armor well exceeds standard level III threats; our philosophy has always been to over deliver! Coated with industry leading PAXCON (a division of Line-X) spall and fragmentation protective coating. It's level III+, but it goes on to say it won't stop AP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:53:50 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:55:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who manufactures .308 Black Tip? M61? Lake City is a safe guess I'd imagine. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:56:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 10:58:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: M61? Lake City is a safe guess I'd imagine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Who manufactures .308 Black Tip? M61? Lake City is a safe guess I'd imagine. There used to be a time when you could get the pulled bullets and roll your own, but I'm not sure if the bullets are still making the rounds or not. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:04:55 PM EDT
[#23]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:11:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Yes, but are you saying the plus factor is due to the coating? because in the OP it says the steel is made to a harder spec. which is what gives it the plus spec. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:25:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, but are you saying the plus factor is due to the coating? because in the OP it says the steel is made to a harder spec. which is what gives it the plus spec. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Yes, but are you saying the plus factor is due to the coating? because in the OP it says the steel is made to a harder spec. which is what gives it the plus spec. The steel can be harder all it wants, but the layer of 'not steel' will allow deformation of the projectile, energy spread, energy redirection, and accentuated yaw, among other things. It may not be much, but it's still significant. Imagine, if you will, the projectile and plate immediately after contact. The projectile/shockwave is crushing the material in front, but that is slowing down the projo like a two wheel drive pickup in slushy snow. That material that is being crushed out of the way has to go somewhere, so the pressure spike is distributed on a broader area and starts pushing the surrounding material, which naturally separates from the plate at the border of the dissimilar materials. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:26:19 PM EDT
[#26]
I'm not saying the difference between the 3 and 3+ is the coating, but it helps.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:29:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Cmon, dude. That stuff is essentially bedliner (some companies actually use bedliner). It doesn't do dick for stopping the round. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:33:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The steel can be harder all it wants, but the layer of 'not steel' will allow deformation of the projectile, energy spread, energy redirection, and accentuated yaw, among other things. It may not be much, but it's still significant. Imagine, if you will, the projectile and plate immediately after contact. The projectile/shockwave is crushing the material in front, but that is slowing down the projo like a two wheel drive pickup in slushy snow. That material that is being crushed out of the way has to go somewhere, so the pressure spike is distributed on a broader area and starts pushing the surrounding material, which naturally separates from the plate at the border of the dissimilar materials. I see what you are saying, and I would have to agree, it does have to have some effect, question is how much? I know how hard the steel is does make a bigger diff I would think, much as the diff between at-500 and mild steel... |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:34:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There used to be a time when you could get the pulled bullets and roll your own, but I'm not sure if the bullets are still making the rounds or not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Who manufactures .308 Black Tip? M61? Lake City is a safe guess I'd imagine. There used to be a time when you could get the pulled bullets and roll your own, but I'm not sure if the bullets are still making the rounds or not. There's still some around. Occasionally (every few years) some 30-06 comes up on the CMP, and it usually last a couple of hours. Last time it did, I got around 2k on cloth belts. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:35:55 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cmon, dude. That stuff is essentially bedliner (some companies actually use bedliner). It doesn't do dick for stopping the round. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
<a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Cmon, dude. That stuff is essentially bedliner (some companies actually use bedliner). It doesn't do dick for stopping the round. There are no misses, either. Every single round went exactly where physics determined it would. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:42:34 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see what you are saying, and I would have to agree, it does have to have some effect, question is how much? I know how hard the steel is does make a bigger diff I would think, much as the diff between at-500 and mild steel... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The steel can be harder all it wants, but the layer of 'not steel' will allow deformation of the projectile, energy spread, energy redirection, and accentuated yaw, among other things. It may not be much, but it's still significant. Imagine, if you will, the projectile and plate immediately after contact. The projectile/shockwave is crushing the material in front, but that is slowing down the projo like a two wheel drive pickup in slushy snow. That material that is being crushed out of the way has to go somewhere, so the pressure spike is distributed on a broader area and starts pushing the surrounding material, which naturally separates from the plate at the border of the dissimilar materials. I see what you are saying, and I would have to agree, it does have to have some effect, question is how much? I know how hard the steel is does make a bigger diff I would think, much as the diff between at-500 and mild steel... Yeah, I'm not saying the difference is the liner, but it does have a significant effect. Imagine the above description relative to a motorcycle hitting slush on the road (5.56mm) vs. a straight truck (7.62 whatever). The motorcycle is gonna flip end over end a few times before the straight truck starts slowing down. That's why 5.56 is an amazing up close and personal round and a 5.56 SBR is the 'best' HD weapon. Because instead of a vehicle driving though slush, its actually a bullet in an elastic solid. PS. Don't let the 300MEH fanbois know I dissed their round for HD. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:45:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something I learned a while back is that if my (internal, external, and terminal) ballistics predictions don't match test data, it isn't because its a fluke, its because I didn't correctly account for all factors. There are no misses, either. Every single round went exactly where physics determined it would. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Cmon, dude. That stuff is essentially bedliner (some companies actually use bedliner). It doesn't do dick for stopping the round. There are no misses, either. Every single round went exactly where physics determined it would. I understand all too well. And I am also certain that even a .22 CB cap could make it through that bedliner. You have seized on the bedliner as being "the" factor that is causing the discrepancy, but there are many possibilities. Part of engineering is understanding when it is important to sweat the small stuff, and when it isn't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:48:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand all too well. And I am also certain that even a .22 CB cap could make it through that bedliner. You have seized on the bedliner as being "the" factor that is causing the discrepancy, but there are many possibilities. Part of engineering is understanding when it is important to sweat the small stuff, and when it isn't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yhats just the anti-spall coating..that keeps the fragments from getting your chin when it stops a bullet...I doubt it adds much to stopping the round... Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Cmon, dude. That stuff is essentially bedliner (some companies actually use bedliner). It doesn't do dick for stopping the round. There are no misses, either. Every single round went exactly where physics determined it would. I understand all too well. And I am also certain that even a .22 CB cap could make it through that bedliner. You have seized on the bedliner as being "the" factor that is causing the discrepancy, but there are many possibilities. Part of engineering is understanding when it is important to sweat the small stuff, and when it isn't. UM, wat? I've said like 3 times that the 'not steel' in the front isn't all of it, but has a significant effect. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2015 11:55:28 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have some 3/8" AR500 targets so I wouldn't have you spend your money to ship one, what do you want to see shot at it? The black tip? I wasn't going to bother trying that against the III+ since the company already did it. That's fine. I hadn't gotten that far in the thread yet. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 12:04:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
UM, wat? I've said like 3 times that the 'not steel' in the front isn't all of it, but has a significant effect. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Uh, yeah? Do you even physics, bro? Cmon, dude. That stuff is essentially bedliner (some companies actually use bedliner). It doesn't do dick for stopping the round. There are no misses, either. Every single round went exactly where physics determined it would. I understand all too well. And I am also certain that even a .22 CB cap could make it through that bedliner. You have seized on the bedliner as being "the" factor that is causing the discrepancy, but there are many possibilities. Part of engineering is understanding when it is important to sweat the small stuff, and when it isn't. UM, wat? I've said like 3 times that the 'not steel' in the front isn't all of it, but has a significant effect. I'll concede that you don't think it's the only factor. But your assertion that it has a significant effect is guesswork, at best. Even the Old Painless BoT tests demonstrated that thin, relatively soft materials immediately in front of the target (like frozen clothes, thick jeans, etc) made essentially no difference in rifle penetration or performance. Different scenario, sure, but at least an analogous physical setup. That bedliner is thin (<1/2 bullet length), very soft (relatively, usually a urethane blend), and isn't spaced out from the plate. All of these factors reduce its effects on bullet yaw and deformation before it reaches the plate. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 12:04:50 AM EDT
[#36]
v-max? leaning toward no.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 12:11:24 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I'm not saying the difference is the liner, but it does have a significant effect. Imagine the above description relative to a motorcycle hitting slush on the road (5.56mm) vs. a straight truck (7.62 whatever). The motorcycle is gonna flip end over end a few times before the straight truck starts slowing down. That's why 5.56 is an amazing up close and personal round and a 5.56 SBR is the 'best' HD weapon. Because instead of a vehicle driving though slush, its actually a bullet in an elastic solid. PS. Don't let the 300MEH fanbois know I dissed their round for HD. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The steel can be harder all it wants, but the layer of 'not steel' will allow deformation of the projectile, energy spread, energy redirection, and accentuated yaw, among other things. It may not be much, but it's still significant. Imagine, if you will, the projectile and plate immediately after contact. The projectile/shockwave is crushing the material in front, but that is slowing down the projo like a two wheel drive pickup in slushy snow. That material that is being crushed out of the way has to go somewhere, so the pressure spike is distributed on a broader area and starts pushing the surrounding material, which naturally separates from the plate at the border of the dissimilar materials. I see what you are saying, and I would have to agree, it does have to have some effect, question is how much? I know how hard the steel is does make a bigger diff I would think, much as the diff between at-500 and mild steel... Yeah, I'm not saying the difference is the liner, but it does have a significant effect. Imagine the above description relative to a motorcycle hitting slush on the road (5.56mm) vs. a straight truck (7.62 whatever). The motorcycle is gonna flip end over end a few times before the straight truck starts slowing down. That's why 5.56 is an amazing up close and personal round and a 5.56 SBR is the 'best' HD weapon. Because instead of a vehicle driving though slush, its actually a bullet in an elastic solid. PS. Don't let the 300MEH fanbois know I dissed their round for HD. I would love to have a couple pieces of that armor to try with the 125 gn. barnes solids i loaded years ago for my 300RUm..really curious how they would do ....... |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 12:29:51 AM EDT
[#38]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 2:31:19 AM EDT
[#39]
I can't tell if it's ceramic ablation or something else coming off the plate and landing on the ground.
However, something is terribly fucky with this and I smell some serious bullshit. If that's AR500 steel, polyurea liner, and nothing else then there is no way in hell it will stop real black tips travelling at full speed. No. Way. Here's my revised breakdown of what I believe is going on in that video. To my knowledge, there has never been a .308 "Black Tip"... only M2AP. (I welcome any correction to this information.) That suggests to me that someone reloaded .308 rounds with black tip bullets. If that's true, then it raises many questions, not the least of which are: What velocity are those bullets actually travelling? In the video, the statement is made that the plates will stop black tip at 3100fps. If that's true, that's faster than M2AP so why not just call it a level IV? After all, they would be the first company in the world to essentially defy physics and create a level IV plate out of 1/4" AR500... so what gives? In other words, I don't believe it. I would like to hear from someone at the company that can defend this. If they want to claim that this plate is AR500 steel only and will stop Black Tips travelling at 3100 fps... or even 2550 fps... then I'm going to buy some and send them to Chesapeake. I believe there is some serious deception going on and I do not say that casually. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 2:35:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's my revised breakdown of what I believe is going on in that video. To my knowledge, there has never been a .308 "Black Tip"... only M2AP. (I welcome any correction to this information.) Clear that up for me, are you saying that there is no .308 AP ammo? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 2:40:32 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Clear that up for me, are you saying that there is no .308 AP ammo? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here's my revised breakdown of what I believe is going on in that video. To my knowledge, there has never been a .308 "Black Tip"... only M2AP. (I welcome any correction to this information.) Clear that up for me, are you saying that there is no .308 AP ammo? Not at all. I'm saying that to my knowledge there was never an actual "black tip" made in .308 caliber. Again, I welcome any correction to that. If there wasn't, then the video is showing either reloads or someone painted the bullets. Meanwhile, I have posted some questions to their Industry forum here and I anxiously await their answers. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 2:41:58 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not at all. I'm saying that to my knowledge there was never an actual "black tip" made in .308 caliber. Again, I welcome any correction to that. If there wasn't, then the video is showing either reloads or someone painted the bullets. Meanwhile, I have posted some questions to their Industry forum here and I anxiously await their answers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's my revised breakdown of what I believe is going on in that video. To my knowledge, there has never been a .308 "Black Tip"... only M2AP. (I welcome any correction to this information.) Clear that up for me, are you saying that there is no .308 AP ammo? Not at all. I'm saying that to my knowledge there was never an actual "black tip" made in .308 caliber. Again, I welcome any correction to that. If there wasn't, then the video is showing either reloads or someone painted the bullets. Meanwhile, I have posted some questions to their Industry forum here and I anxiously await their answers. I've carried them by the belt. We get a black tip 5.56 as well. The rest of your post is just as off base as this point. Just thought I'd let you know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 2:46:47 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've carried them by the belt. We get a black tip 5.56 as well. The rest of your post is just as off base as this point. Just thought I'd let you know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's my revised breakdown of what I believe is going on in that video. To my knowledge, there has never been a .308 "Black Tip"... only M2AP. (I welcome any correction to this information.) Clear that up for me, are you saying that there is no .308 AP ammo? Not at all. I'm saying that to my knowledge there was never an actual "black tip" made in .308 caliber. Again, I welcome any correction to that. If there wasn't, then the video is showing either reloads or someone painted the bullets. Meanwhile, I have posted some questions to their Industry forum here and I anxiously await their answers. I've carried them by the belt. We get a black tip 5.56 as well. The rest of your post is just as off base as this point. Just thought I'd let you know. Could you provide a link that I can read on .308 black tips? And no, my post is not off base. [ETA] I am aware of a 5.56 black tip. Just not a .308 originally manufactured as a black tip. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 2:54:35 AM EDT
[#44]
Ok, I finally found some info. M61 was a NATO black tip in 7.62x51.
It was so devastating that it had less penetration that a solid bronze or brass round. 
No wonder it never came up for testing while I was in the industry. I now have zero doubt that AR500 stops that round. I only wonder why it's worth bragging about. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 3:03:36 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Could you provide a link that I can read on .308 black tips? And no, my post is not off base. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Here's my revised breakdown of what I believe is going on in that video. To my knowledge, there has never been a .308 "Black Tip"... only M2AP. (I welcome any correction to this information.) Clear that up for me, are you saying that there is no .308 AP ammo? Not at all. I'm saying that to my knowledge there was never an actual "black tip" made in .308 caliber. Again, I welcome any correction to that. If there wasn't, then the video is showing either reloads or someone painted the bullets. Meanwhile, I have posted some questions to their Industry forum here and I anxiously await their answers. I've carried them by the belt. We get a black tip 5.56 as well. The rest of your post is just as off base as this point. Just thought I'd let you know. Could you provide a link that I can read on .308 black tips? And no, my post is not off base. For M61 or M993? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 3:49:14 AM EDT
[#46]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB1uq1T9SHg#t=223
AR500 lvl 3+ armor stopped 4 7.62 NATO AP rounds at 5 yards. I would have expected the AP round to penetrate lvl 3+ armor but that was not the case. 10mm and AR500 videos said a lot about speed vs bullet material/design. I saved the video link for future debate on the subject. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 7:27:44 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, I finally found some info. M61 was a NATO black tip in 7.62x51. It was so devastating that it had less penetration that a solid bronze or brass round. No wonder it never came up for testing while I was in the industry. I now have zero doubt that AR500 stops that round. I only wonder why it's worth bragging about. As I stated earlier, I've seen true 7.62 AP ammo (150.5gr bullets) punch through 1/4 AR500 at a 100yds. I'm surprised to see that III+ plate stop AP rounds like that. So either the steel isn't really AR500 (they claim its been altered somehow), or the velocity of the tested rounds was lowered. I will say this much, I wouldn't stand 5yds from a steel plate while shooting AP rounds at it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 8:19:23 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I'm not saying the difference is the liner, but it does have a significant effect. Imagine the above description relative to a motorcycle hitting slush on the road (5.56mm) vs. a straight truck (7.62 whatever). The motorcycle is gonna flip end over end a few times before the straight truck starts slowing down. That's why 5.56 is an amazing up close and personal round and a 5.56 SBR is the 'best' HD weapon. Because instead of a vehicle driving though slush, its actually a bullet in an elastic solid. PS. Don't let the 300MEH fanbois know I dissed their round for HD. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The steel can be harder all it wants, but the layer of 'not steel' will allow deformation of the projectile, energy spread, energy redirection, and accentuated yaw, among other things. It may not be much, but it's still significant. Imagine, if you will, the projectile and plate immediately after contact. The projectile/shockwave is crushing the material in front, but that is slowing down the projo like a two wheel drive pickup in slushy snow. That material that is being crushed out of the way has to go somewhere, so the pressure spike is distributed on a broader area and starts pushing the surrounding material, which naturally separates from the plate at the border of the dissimilar materials. I see what you are saying, and I would have to agree, it does have to have some effect, question is how much? I know how hard the steel is does make a bigger diff I would think, much as the diff between at-500 and mild steel... Yeah, I'm not saying the difference is the liner, but it does have a significant effect. Imagine the above description relative to a motorcycle hitting slush on the road (5.56mm) vs. a straight truck (7.62 whatever). The motorcycle is gonna flip end over end a few times before the straight truck starts slowing down. That's why 5.56 is an amazing up close and personal round and a 5.56 SBR is the 'best' HD weapon. Because instead of a vehicle driving though slush, its actually a bullet in an elastic solid. PS. Don't let the 300MEH fanbois know I dissed their round for HD. Motorcycles don't suddenly start flipping over when you ride into slush, keep the bars loose and dn't touch the brakes, just like glare ice with street tyres. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 8:26:06 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As I stated earlier, I've seen true 7.62 AP ammo (150.5gr bullets) punch through 1/4 AR500 at a 100yds. I'm surprised to see that III+ plate stop AP rounds like that. So either the steel isn't really AR500 (they claim its been altered somehow), or the velocity of the tested rounds was lowered. I will say this much, I wouldn't stand 5yds from a steel plate while shooting AP rounds at it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok, I finally found some info. M61 was a NATO black tip in 7.62x51. It was so devastating that it had less penetration that a solid bronze or brass round.
No wonder it never came up for testing while I was in the industry. I now have zero doubt that AR500 stops that round. I only wonder why it's worth bragging about. As I stated earlier, I've seen true 7.62 AP ammo (150.5gr bullets) punch through 1/4 AR500 at a 100yds. I'm surprised to see that III+ plate stop AP rounds like that. So either the steel isn't really AR500 (they claim its been altered somehow), or the velocity of the tested rounds was lowered. I will say this much, I wouldn't stand 5yds from a steel plate while shooting AP rounds at it. It's likely just harder. 500 Brinell is roughly 50 RC. 600 Brinell is 57 RC. It could be chemically "AR500" and just ordered from the mill at a different heat spec. Like 10mm says "velocity matters" relative to piercing steel, the inverse is "hardness matters" in preventing that penetration. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/27/2015 9:29:15 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: <a href="http://s27.photobucket.com/user/91nx2k/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/91nx2k/Mobile%20Uploads/F89E3BDC-D3DD-47D6-9B77-483BB53C806E_zpsxzdqofja.jpg</a> This is a pic of the hole I shot in their III+ (standard, not lightweight) plate. All I see is steel. This is the same plate that stopped 7.62 AP in that video, that was not the lightweight plate. I am not sure if the lightweight one would still stop the AP rounds or not, I just know they rate it for m193 @ 3100 fps. You don't see a layer of "not steel" in that pic? |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
