Next time I get a sensitive briefing from a senior bomb investigator from FLETC or the senior engineer sergeants at the 18C course, I'll just excuse myself from the kookery.

Who knew all I had to do was watch the news and let them so expertly fill me in the day's events?

Mabe it's all related to the closing of those WalMarts...

all the pieces, finally coming together...

Thanks for your information, I find it facinating.

This was a Middle Eastern Islamic Jihad cell that had members being surveilled by the FBI and other 3-letter agencies.

There were 200 eye witnesses alone in Jayna Davis' book who provide supporting testimony to that end, in addition to the massive Nation-wide manhunt for John Doe #2, who had an olive complexion and was seen activating the initiation system for the bomb by eye witnesses and two different surveillance cameras, whose footage the FBI still has not released to the best of my knowledge.

One thing in Oklahoma is that almost everybody you talk to about this does not believe the official conclusions of the Clinton DOJ investigation, because of specific personally-witnessed details that were omitted, often with very callous and condescending behavior from Federal investigators even in the presence of bodies during the recovery and body categorization processes.

It is also highly possible that high explosives within ATF's 9th floor armory caused the columnar compartmental destruction deep in the Southeast section of the building.  The rescue and recovery operations were in fact suspended or halted at least 3 times during the course of those efforts, to the horror of volunteers, firefighters, and local police.  This is all documented with local news footage and eye witness testimony.  That location of the building is where the most deaths occurred.  The majority of survivors who were trapped were actually on the inside wall of the face of the building, closer to the blast from the Ryder van.

The most important aspects of this case are:

The other Middle Eastern males, including John Doe #2, seen associating with Terry Nichols.

The efforts by FBI to intimidate people involved in the recovery and order them to not discuss their eye witness accounts is troubling, to say the least.

Clinton didn't have the sack to confront the Iranians, Hezbollah, and address major failings and complicity within ATF and FBI, and chose to maximize the political profits of a domestic terrorist template, with those right wingers gun-toting veterans as the bogeymen.

Look how they handled Benghazi in the BS story that was attempted, with some of the same actors in both administrations.

So showing the facts of the case is trolling now?  Have we changed the meaning of trolling to "doesn't agree with the crazy conspiracy theory based on the facts available"?

 

+1

Thanks LRRPF52!

I think we're using the daa9mm definition which is "anyone who doesn't agree with me must work for the government to troll me."

I can tell where the bomb went off in this picture, can you?

 





Please excuse my trolling since apparently pointing out facts with pictures is considered trolling now.

 

Too bad NIST's forensic engineering investigation contradicts most of what you said.

No, the sources of the sketch that the government put out was from the employee at the rental truck place, the one that said he made a mistake and John Doe Suspect #2 was actually Todd Bunting, the private from Ft. Riley that had nothing to do with the bombing (per the original witness statement)

 

The woman described the man she says got out of the truck as tanned, short and slim in her first interview.  Between interviews, she reads the newspaper, sees the sketch put out that was done by the employee at the truck stop, and reads the description of olive-skinned, medium height and stocky.  When they interview her again, her description matches that of the sketch, she changed it based on the description of the sketch.


Also, did the FBI hide her, or make her disappear?  No, she appeared as a defense witness for McVeigh and testified in court.  The jury heard her testimony and considered it in their deliberations.  

This is not true, in both cases.  

 

Well, if they tell you the wrong information like they seemed to have, I'd excuse myself too.

 

Several people are commenting on how the truck device was set up. Here's a diagram mcveigh did:

I haven't discussed what they said because it shouldn't be open source.  Tell me how you came to that conclusion again if you don't know the specific details I'm referring to.

The other question I have is, why the die hard insistence from defender's of the McVeigh/Nichols story, and labeling of everyone else as "kooks", and "conspiracy theorists"?

What's the motive?

Is it...

A.  The persons are simply too simple-minded to accept that there is another story not being told by key government witnesses and participants?

B.  They have a habit of labeling everyone that questions this BS story as Alex Jones types out of knee-jerk reaction to anyone who raises questions, regardless of the facts?

C.   Something else

For those that criticize anyone questioning the McVeigh/Nichols white supremacist cover story, what is your motive?  Do you have access to information the public does not that gives you special insight?

Are you Federal LEO's who feel personally motivated to defend your institutions out of general instinct?

This case was totally misrepresented by the Clinton White House and DOJ, and they did in fact intimidate witnesses in several instances.  There are numerous reports of local LEO's and firefighters who were threatened with job loss and difficult times for their families.  Rescue workers were dismissed from the recovery effort and told to keep their mouths closed when they called out the victim totals as BS when they heard what was being reported to the media on the scene as the day progressed.

To me, something is very unnatural when you cover down hard on the Clinton WH/DOJ National media story, and ignore the totality of the evidence from local sources.  This isn't a moon landing hoax story about shape shifters and bigfoot.  It is something very real, and the evidence points to foreign Jihadi involvement.

I don't say that as some type of pretext for war, or justification for actions in the Middle East.  I'm just looking at the ground truth, and where the evidence points.

John Doe #2 was also seen by Attorneys from the Federal Court House, practicing his run prior to the bombing earlier in the week, so there are multiple eye witnesses that saw him.

They also saw Terry Nichols with 4 other Middle Eastern males. The ATF and FBI had already received bomb threats and conducted bomb drills at the Murrah building right before the event, and the US Marshall's Nationwide and other Federal agencies had received a warning that Middle Eastern cells in the US were planning a bombing attack on a Federal building.

Despite relentless attempts by the Clinton DOJ/FBI to stop these facts from emerging, they still have.  The question is, why did they want to suppress the Middle Eastern involvement, then push this white veteran gun-owner template, and attach it to the right spectrum of the political parties?

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

1. Some of the conspiracy kook stories are just plain kooky.  Their reactions to having their kookiness exposed speaks for itself.
2. Nutty folks with an axe to grind do nutty shit.  This passes the "Occom's Razor" test far better than convoluted conspiracy stupidity.
3. Everybody's got a story. People make shit up. People change their stories.

So you're a solid B.  Got it.  Will you take the time to watch the videos on Page 7?  We're not talking Alex Jones, but local news and interviews with victim families and rescue workers.

Occam's Razor in this case points cleanly to Middle Eastern involvement when you look at the MO and all the eye witness accounts, as well as the string of bombings against US targets by Hezbollah and radical jihad groups from the early 1980's forward.  Same type of bombing approach, VBIED's, US embassies, annexes, and WTC 1993.

It was not the first attack using a Ryder truck VBIED on a large, prominent building by Middle Eastern terrorists where the FBI knew in advance about the cell, and failed to stop it, just like WTC 1993.

who are you.
seriously.

were you one of those weird Fed guys that acted like assholes and interfered with people? I thought they were specifically looking for certain persons of interest but couldn't find them.

I met Diana that day.

Poor lady, to have suffered through all of that.

 

Nope, I'm just some guy.  I don't get briefings at 18C school, or get told secret information about a vast government conspiracy from a senior level federal law enforcement bomb investigator, just some guy who can read and look at credible documentation.  

There's a reason why I have Dunkelzahn on my ignore list.

Straw man arguments and attributing statements to me that never existed are just some of them.  Threads read a lot better when you cut the adolescents out, who don't know how to hold an adult conversation.  I usually give people more than one chance to behave like an adult-we all have our faults.  When I see a repeating pattern of personal attacks and stupidity, they get put on ignore.

The specific information related was only pertaining to the nature of the device in the Ryder van, since that is within the appropriate knowledge base for certain people.

Nobody is going to walk into an environment like that and start making political statements and be taken seriously.

Getting hung up on the device and what damage it could do distracts from all the eye witness accounts of Middle Eastern males, and Federal agency intimidation of witnesses.  That's where the focus should be.

Clinton didn't have the stomach for confronting Iran and Hezbollah, or any of the Middle Eastern groups that were targeting the US throughout his Presidency.

Clinton was looking for political opportunities to look relevant and marginalize the Republican party.

OKC was his crisis ticket for those courses of action.

I prosecuted a guy that was in the same unit as McVeigh for years, including the first Gulf War. I started looking into the unit's wartime events and history because of some sentencing issues (defendant claimed he was a war hero), and eventually ran into some REALLY strange roadblocks. I.e., sealed records, missing transcripts and exhibits, and a senior FBI agent telling me (a federal prosecutor) to stop asking questions and let the issue drop.

IIRC. McVeigh told his mother and sister that he hadn't really washed out of SF school, but had in fact been working for the CIA.

Not that that means much itself, because really, that's the sort of thing someone might lie about to sound cool, but when you add it all up...
Speed



 

I was 11 when it went down. I do remember the liar and perjurer Clinton getting a huge boost from his "right wing militia crusade" and I seem to remember him trying to attach Rush Limbaugh to the bombing

Never knew there were alternate theories and possible evidence that contradicts the DOJ story. Thanks LRRP. I enjoy your threads and posts
The OKC bombings get very little attention...hell I've got Soldiers that weren't even born when it happened

That's really interesting.

I wish I remember who it was, but we had a poster here a few years back in one of these threads that had some very interesting things to say about the unidentified ME suspect.  He either worked in the FM building at the time, or knew some key players in that investigation.  

I remember thinking "holy shit" at the time.  

Despite all the libtards that hang out here to sow hate, discontent, and misinformation, we also have folks that bring such events closer to our awareness from a more personal perspective because they were there..

It absolutely is.

Come read my thread... Clicky

So can our resident SPLC interns explain why Terry NIchols all of a sudden went to the Phillipines for three months?

The same Phillipines where Al Qaeda had active operatives in the same area Nichols frequented.

There's no doubt McVeigh and Nichols were the main culprits but I don't doubt at all there was an Al Qaeda connection.

Ah, I see.  When presented with facts, ignore the guy.  Nice.  Claims to know all about the bomb, but when pressed on it, must ignore him, call him an adolescent.
 




Witnesses are unreliable, as we've seen in the testimony of Daina Bradley.  




 









"The testimony of Daina Bradley, who lost her family and a leg in the blast, seemed to have backfired on the defense. Ms. Bradley was expected to say, as she has previously, that just before the explosion she saw a dark-complexioned man, one not resembling Mr. McVeigh, leave the passenger side of the Ryder truck that held the bomb and walk swiftly away.






But she testified that she now remembered a second man, who got out of the driver's seat of the truck. And, on cross-examination, she added that although she did not get a good look at the man, he could have been Mr. McVeigh."









After a big event like the OKC bombing, with close to 24 hours news coverage, emotions running high, people start to mis-remember things.










 

Well, his wife was from there and studying for a degree there.  He made numeorus trips to the Phillipines.  Nichols himself said he left to avoid getting implicated, since he knew McVeigh was building the bomb (and he thought McVeigh would carry out the bombing soon).  When he didn't hear of any bombing, he flew back here to the States in Janurary 1995.  

Seems kind of wierd that Nichols would make many attempts at making a deal for a lighter sentence, yet never once tried to claim an Al-Qaeda connection.  Wouldn't that have been userful in his attempts at getting a better deal?




 

Entirely untrue since my former SAC was FBI in OKC and worked the investigation.

 

Rot in hell, McVeigh.

No shit? Mine too!

1965

Fast and furious?

The irs scandal.

Txl

Isn't Holder linked to the OKC bombing in some way?

Hell, they not only walked thousands of assault rifles across the border to be deliveres to Mexican narco-terrorist organizations knowing that they would be used to kill innocent people, they bought some of these guns with your tax dollars and gave them to them for free.... we know that at least 300 innocent people, including a Mexican Attorney General have been killed with Fast and Furious guns, and a government helicopter was shot down as well....

If they were willing to do this to 300++ people with no end in sight, just to make the case for a UN Small Arms Treaty, what else,is,our government capable of doing?

Eric Holder was serving as US Attorney for DC at the time (1995), and was later appointed into the Clinton DOJ as Deputy AG under Janet Reno in 1997.  Reno was insisted on by Hillary during the Bush-Clinton transition back in 1992-1993, overriding Clinton's preference for Webster Hubble.

Eric Holder was instrumental in the undue process pardoning of several Puerto Rican terrorists and one of Hillary's brother's convicted clients for fruad in the final weeks of the Clinton Administration.



To better understand the behind-the-scenes Federal Law Enforcement and counter-terrorist threat posture of the 1980's and early 1990's, you need to know about Ali Mohamed, the ex-pat Afghan Muj immigrants, and the rise of Al Qaeda in the wake of the end of the Afghan-Soviet War.

You also need to understand the basic backdrop of the Islamic Jihad groups who had been targeting US Embassies, Consulates, Annexes, Airlines, the WTC, and other targets within the US, almost exclusively with Vehicle Borne Improvised Explosive Devices designed and overseen by Middle Eastern engineers, primarily from Egypt.

The actual drivers and expendable human capital are almost always ex-pats who are destined for a suicide operation, while the engineers help plan the construction of the bombs to yield maximum damage and death to the targets.

The Middle Eastern cell that entered OKC prior to the bombing immediately took a taxi cab down to the Murrah building for on-target recce, and this is documented as well in Jayna Davis' book.  They were primarily seen with Terry Nichols, who just happened to be a frequent flier to the Philippines, where the Abu Sayef Al Qaeda splinter was growing at the time in the wake of the Afghan-Soviet War's end.

Many of the foreign Islamic Jihad volunteers were ordered to disperse across the globe to set up operations geared towards attacking the US.  There was a Filipino Internal Security agent who witnessed Ramzi Yousef and Terry Nichols in the same hotel, so one of the probabilities is that Yousef schooled Nichols on construction of the device, which again, was not a simple pile of ANFO as told to the public.

Keep in mind that Yousef's crew in New York used.....a Ryder Van with an extremely powerful device that was designed to literally bring one tower down, crashing into the other to destroy the WTC.  

So there were a lot of Islamic Jihad groups operating in the US throughout the 80's, into the 1990's, with Federal LE on a loose trail of them with varying degrees of success at infiltrating and exploiting these groups.  Since many of the groups received training from the Iranian, Saudi, Paki, and Iraqi Intelligence directorates, the cell leaders had good tradecraft skills in many cases, to include counter-surveillance and counter-penetration within US Federal LE agencies.  The Afghan vest had received counter-intelligence tradecraft training from both the CIA and the ISI, and were using crowd control metal detector wands and stud finders to screen for wires with members of the Al Farouq Mosque in Brooklyn who stayed for the after hours Islamic Jihad cell meetings.

That cell was penetrated by an informant who was let go by order of an FBI SAC out of the New York office, despite the passionate protestations of the two field agents that were handling him.  He warned them that the cell was talking about blowing up buildings in New York.  WTC 1993 happened within weeks of him being let go-that was the Ramzi Yousef-trained cell.

Are you talking about the TOW that was found?

It was an inert trainer.

Eyewitness accounts are often wrong, but shit that is a description of most men over the age of 18 in the State of Oklahoma.

If the OKC bombing was conducted by Islamic terrorists, why didn't they claim it?

The purpose of a terrorist bombing of that nature is not to kill a bunch of petty government functionaries and random civvies.  If Al Qaeda or a similar organization had gone to great difficulty and expense to conduct that op, they would have claimed it.  Otherwise it would have no value to them.

As an interesting side note, I can assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Feds went to great length to find John Doe Number Two.

How do I know that?  Because I got called and had to demonstrate that I was not involved with the bombing, and was not "John Doe #2".  My connection?  I was on active duty and stored my Jeep in a family member's garage while on a deployment...  that garage was in Kingman, AZ.  They contacted my family member, who gave them my parents number, who gave them my my number.  Its awesome to get a call at work from a Special Agent inquiring about your whereabouts and activities for the past year in relation to a massive terrorist attack.

They called a lot of people that had the most tenuous of connections, because they were checking everything.

They stopped calling, so I guess I'm not a suspect anymore.

I have her blood on the clothes I wore that day ( along with many others), still sealed up in bag in the garage.

I've been to several meetings. I know state and federal LEO's personally who had been privy to info.
what LRRP is saying is spot fucking on with what I have been told in private and his documented in several different reports to Congress and to the State of Oklahoma.

the Feds were in Triage looking for a specific person(s) and a couple seemed very frustrated when they could not be accounted for among the wounded.

Just to be clear, what info are the state and federal LEO's who had been privy to info been privy to?  My next question would be, why are the state and federal LEO's that you personally know maintaining silence on the conspiracy?  

 

The Grand Jury looked into that as well, none of the threats were specific with either the date of the attack, the target, or even the method.  

 

" In the days just before a bomb ripped through the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, various law enforcement agencies received phone calls warning of a pending disaster.

Actually the brown pickup truck was checked out and was owned by an employee of the Journal Record Building which was right next door to the Murrah building.  She testified that she had left in a hurry in the pickup truck just moments before the bomb detonated, she had gotten a call that her child was very sick at school.  She never hung out or had met McVeigh or Nichols before (or since).  





And no, the McVeigh/John Doe #2 sketch didn't come from people seeing them drive away from the scene, the sketch came from an employee of the truck place that McVeigh rented the truck from and the witness who provided the description for the sketches has already said he made a mistake with John Doe #2.  



 

The rescue and recovery operations were indeed suspended and the local news did initially report there were additional explosives or bombs found within the building.  

 

"F. EXPLOSIVES REPORTED TO BE FOUND IN THE BUILDING


We investigated claims that explosives were found in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Our investigation determined as follows:


A desk ornament that looked like a bundle of dynamite with a clock attached to it. The desk ornament belonged to an ATF agent, and was not an explosive device.


Several federal law enforcement agencies were housed in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. Small arms and small arms ammunition were not an uncommon discovery throughout the search and rescue phase.


An inert T.O.W. missile was found and mistaken for a secondary explosive device. The inert T.O.W. missile belonged to the U.S. Customs Department.


Based on our review of video tapes and photographs, packages of small arms ammunition were mistaken for packs of C4 explosive by one Oklahoma City Police Department officer."

Was the ATF forewarned and the agents were not present in the building?  

Not true, while no ATF agents were killed in the bombing, four of them were in the building and at least one of them was wounded.  


"Part of this Grand Jury's responsibility was to investigate allegations that federal government agencies had received prior warning the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building was to occur. More specifically, an allegation surfaced that agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) assigned to the Oklahoma City Office were contacted on their pagers on the morning of April 19, 1995, prior to 9:02 a.m. and were advised not to come into the office.


Four employees of the ATF who were in the building prior to 9:00 a.m. on April 19, 1995, appeared before us and testified. Additionally, we have received photographic evidence and the testimony of other witnesses. We are convinced that ATF employees Luke Franey, Valerie Rowden, Vernon Buster, James Staggs and Alex McCauley were in the building when it was destroyed. There was no credible evidence presented to us that leads us to believe the ATF had prior warning of the bombing. "


Federal Agent Luke Franey testified at the trial about being stuck on the ninth floor for a while waiting to be rescued.  Part of his testimony was showing the jurors a photograph of him stuck in the building waiting to get rescued.  


"Then, the shaky-voiced Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent told jurors Tuesday in Timothy McVeigh's trial, horror came again.


Franey survived the deadly Murrah Building blast but told jurors he was trapped, nine floors up, on a small island of office. A huge, crumbling gap separated him from the stairs.


For more than an hour, Franey had hung his hopes on the sign he scribbled and pressed against the window:


"ATF trapped - 9th floor."


Rescuers ruled out a helicopter rescue. A ladder wouldn't reach that high. Franey waited, alone.


Then he heard screams in the plaza below. He saw people running.


Through a hand-held radio that kept him in touch with fellow agent Mark Michalic, Franey said he was told to find something sturdy to hang onto - they had found another bomb."

<SNIP>

1. In January, 1998, for the first time, another allegation relating to prior knowledge surfaced. This allegation focused on a claimed comment by a local United States Congressman the night of the bombing. We heard the testimony of the people who claimed to have heard the comment, the Congressman, and the person who was supposedly with the Congressman that night. We have concluded that whatever words were said (and there was a dispute about this between those who claimed to have heard and those who supposedly said something) they were not evidence of prior knowledge by the Congressman.

 

In the closing statement of the Grand Jury's report, seems appropriate.