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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:03:36 PM EDT
[#1]
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For my son, it is grounded off screen time (no TV, no video games, etc.). For my daughter it is grounded off her cat. We have found those are the two possessions/activities they hold most dear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What does "grounded" look like? That's not being grounded. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:03:54 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is your daughter acting out or defending herself? I've seen both sides of that kind of conflict. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:04:18 PM EDT
[#3]
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My children have repugnant behavior. My son is highly disrespectful (argues, name calls (especially to me), rolls eyes, mimics, etc.) and rude to adults (especially me). He is on a behavior chart at school and a day never goes by where he doesn't get minuses for poor behavior (disrespectful to school staff, arguing with teachers, blurting, etc.). If a week goes by and he isn't sent to the principal's office at least twice for a time out (just get him out of the classroom) I would be amazed. My son also seems incapable of connecting his bad behavior to consequences. If he gets punished for bad behavior he doesn't seem to understand it is because of his behavior. Instead, he believes 100% that his punishment is because the teachers, or I, am "mean" to him. My daughter is much less of a behavior concern than my son, unless the two of them are within ten feet of each other. At school she is fine - no behavior issues. At home she can be stubborn, but she eventually does what you ask of her. But get the two of them together and it's like a violent chemical reaction. They literally cannot stop pestering each other, hitting, kicking, making faces, name calling, etc. About the only time they cease trying to maim each other if is they are playing on their handheld video game things. Last night my wife came home in tears from the kids' 4H meeting. They were supposed to visit a retirement home to play Bingo and help the residents. My son the entire time kept lamenting aloud how "bored he was," and "when were they going to go home." Eventually my wife sat him in the corner so she and my daughter could play Bingo and help the residents. At the end of the night some of the kids from the 4H club put on a play for the residents. My kids, in the audience, were kicking, pushing, and pestering each other. Eventually my wife had to separate them on opposite side of the room until the play ended. And on the drive home the kids went at it again like lions and hyenas. After being grounded once they kept at it so they got grounded again. Both were very unhappy when they got home, and when I spoke with them my daughter understood she was grounded due to bad behavior, but said her behavior was "because of her brother bothering her." And my son complained that "Mom grounded me for no reason at all! She is mean!" Even after we clearly explained to him why he was grounded I could tell he wasn't making the connection. What have we tried over the ~4 years this behavior has been occurring? Time-outs, spankings, grounding off favorite things, behavior charts, and 1-2-3 Magic. Consistent? Yes we are. Model good behavior ourselves? Very much so. Stable loving home? Yes. Spoiled kids? Probably a little, but far less than other families in our income bracket. Both my kids are doing very well academically, scoring well above average on their achievement exams. Einstein once said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I feel like I'm living proof of this. After ~4 years of dealing with this with no improvement my wife and I are at our wits' end. I guess we thought if we modeled good behavior, were consistent in our punishment of bad behavior, and rewarded good behavior, given time they would mature out of it. This has not been the case. My son is 10 1/2 yrs old, and my daughter turns 9 in a few weeks. Any parents who dealt with behavior issue with your offspring have some advice on what to try? Because I'm all ears. Oh, and for the "beat your kids" crowd, yeah we spanked, and spanked, but it never resulted in them learning from their mistakes and not replicating bad behavior. For the tl;dr crowd - 10 1/2 and 9 yr old kids have bad behavior; we punish consistently (ground, spank (though very infrequently anymore), time outs, etc.); model good behavior ourselves; but nothing works. Seeking advice on what to try next. Thanks! Spoiled a little????for what- back talking their parents. Does your son call every adult sir or Mr. "Lastname" Your daughter? It all starts with the little things. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:04:49 PM EDT
[#4]
My sister in law is Filipino and when my 5 year old nephew acts up he gets the "look" and he either straightens up or he gets cussed at in Tagalog and/or smacked. After that it's all yes sir and yes ma'am.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:05:11 PM EDT
[#5]
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Ever been smacked in the rear by a bamboo stick? I can assure you it hurt plenty. Here is an example of a typical scenario - son is being disrespectful/rude and mouthing off to me. He gets a warning to stop, he doesn't so he gets grounded. This angers him and he calls me a name. He gets spanked, gets even more angry and calls more names, gets spanked again. Sometimes he might go for a third round, other times he stops after the second. But here is the kicker, the next day its like his brain resets and we may go through the same thing again, or at least multiple times in a week. Now, since I don't use the stick any longer, the groundings just mount (one day, two days, three days grounded, etc.). The out come is the same though, brain resets the next day and its like the prior day's even never transpired. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Whip the shit out of them. I'm not sure what to tell you the, I know when I was a kid I only had to get spanked twice (belted the second time) to say fuck that shit. Maybe it didn't hurt enough? If they think they can do shit, and then they can get away with doing shit, they will. You've gotta be a fucking nazi if thats the game they want to play, every little thing they do you grab them and bend them right the fuck over, and make sure it hurts. Then a few minutes later after they've calmed down and stopped crying, go back to them and explain to them what they did wrong and make sure they understand what they did wrong. Then tell them you love them and give them a big hug and a kiss and go do something fun with them. Why are you still playing the escalation game (aka from his perspective, "how far can I push Daddy")? At 10, he damn well knows he should not be disrespectful to mom and dad and repeat offenses (read, any offenses) should immediately result in whatever your maximum punishment is. Escalation is a tactic for those learning the rules, not those who know them and are willfully and repeatedly breaking them. An occasional slip-up is handled differently, but daily challenges need to be dealt with directly and immediately. That aside - you may need to ramp up the quality time with the boy. Fear is only one component of parental respect and the first to go. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:05:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For my son, it is grounded off screen time (no TV, no video games, etc.). For my daughter it is grounded off her cat. We have found those are the two possessions/activities they hold most dear. I do not know that "taking things away" is an effective punishment. I can't see "overnight grounding" doing much. I think it just give them time to brood over how unfair life is and that everyone is mean to them. Punishments should be quick and in the moment, followed by sincere apologies from the offender to the offendee, then forgiveness. Sending someone to their room is long and drawn out and does not give the child a chance to demonstrate that they are learning from their mistakes. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:06:41 PM EDT
[#7]
Bottom line is: your kids dont fear you or recognize your authority. YOU have to change!
Start exercising authority and make THEIR life a living hell with knowledge that if they change their behavior things will get plesent again. Start taking away everything one piece at a time with every instance of bad behavior till they're left with nothing. Toys. Privlidges. Doors to their rooms. Friends. After school activities. Give them bland food. No fridge access. No TV. No video games. Give them multiple chores. Hard routines. Put them on one-on-one time. Get creative on their asses. Beat some ass too! Make it unforgetable. Start turning the fuckin screws before they become teenagers. This is what we did to the little shits in the grouphome to shape behavior(except spankings, wern't allowed). Believe me, they will break. ETA: look into behavior modification programs for kids. There was one they use to advertise on AM radio but I forgot what it was. Get militant on their asses! 
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:07:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Your children obviously have no (healthy) fear of you or your wife (too old to fear Santa Claus, or God's wrath if you are not religious) but they probably fear being taken away and placed a group foster home. They start acting up you pick up the phone and dial child services and pretend to be talking to the authorities to come over for a pickup. Bet they snap right out of it and change their ways. Unless of course they are really rotten and call your bluff.   |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:08:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Every action should have an equal and opposite reaction.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:09:03 PM EDT
[#10]
OP, I really feel for you...That must really suck...Where we don't have that problem, I empathize with you greatly...
I think you are going to have to do a bunch of things in order to save your sanity...One being, try really hard when handing out punishment not to get mad. Your emotional state is going to be quite important through this process.. First thing, make sure you and your wife are on the same page. Kids are smart and if they think they can play one parent against another, you have already set your self back. Next, You gotta make both of them fear the hell out of you...Then, take everything away, and don't give it back for a long time. That means no game boy, 3DS, computer, phone, nothing. And when they show signs of better behavior, don't give it back right away, they could be trying to play you. Keep that shit locked up in the gun safe or something. Spanking doesn't always help, but when done right and done with some balls can really help out. You are gonna have to get in that ass. I mean really...Also let me tell you what really worked for us as kids...Mind games. Whooooo that shit works like no other. Have them hold a stack of books and tell them if they even think about dropping them all hell will break loose. Have them run up and down the stairs 50 times and tell them if they stop they don't get to do sports etc. Here is the best mind game ever. When they do something wrong completely ignore them. They are going to talk to you, don't answer them for anything in this world. They will be like Dad..Don't say shit. You are going to have to do a whole bunch of tactics to get them back on the right track...And you gotta hurry. If you don't teenage years are looming. And then you are going to have no choice but to punch them in the chest. Catch it before you have to do that. Biggest thing though, is you have to make them fear you. They would be afraid to go to sleep in my house. They would have meetings like Mom and Dad are damn near crazy... ETA: Take everything out of the bedroom...Posters, TV, radio, beds everything. They would have to earn their beds..They would come home from school and there would be a blanket and a pillow, and that is it... |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:09:22 PM EDT
[#11]
No offense but you're going to have to get a lot tougher. If you have to ask the question what to do about your kids, then they have you beat and you are not in control. Control = structure, routine, discipline, responsibility, and consistency. I'm not a fan of drugs. I don't think they help. When my 12 year old was diagnosed with ODD because he was having trouble adjusting to his mother's remarriage, she took him to counselors and he took pills and crap and everything got worse. Then she sent him to military school for a year. He matured 10 fold in that year and the defiance issues were gone. But what military school offered could of been offered at home , i.e. a strict routine, clear punishment for non-compliance, combined with rewards and accolades for accomplishments.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:10:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Oppositional Defiant Disorder
Counselling now FIRM parenting. NOW |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:10:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bend your son over your knee and spank him. Yes. Do it. It sounds like you didn't do this enough when he was younger. He's probably learned that he can throw tantrums and act like an ass and there are no consequences for it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Whip the shit out of them. Bend your son over your knee and spank him. Yes. Do it. It sounds like you didn't do this enough when he was younger. He's probably learned that he can throw tantrums and act like an ass and there are no consequences for it. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:13:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Im just here for the excellent parenting advise from a generation that raised the society we live in.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:15:02 PM EDT
[#15]
When I was about that age, my dad started supplementing the whoopins with push ups. If the boy acts up, let him push it out, while counting them out. If he still acts up, let him push some more. I'm not talking about 5 to 10 push-ups. Let him do a "class set". A class set is from Texas A&M, take the last two digits of his college graduation year (2027) and start there. 2nd infraction add a second set (54) etc.
He will either behave or be strong. After punishment is complete, have a talk with him calmly explaining why he was punished, and the behavior needed to complete the process i.e apologizing to the offended parties. P.s. he should consider himself lucky to have a class set of 27. My class sets were 99. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:16:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not sure what to tell you the, I know when I was a kid I only had to get spanked twice (belted the second time) to say fuck that shit. Maybe it didn't hurt enough? . Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Whip the shit out of them. I'm not sure what to tell you the, I know when I was a kid I only had to get spanked twice (belted the second time) to say fuck that shit. Maybe it didn't hurt enough? . Maybe your just soft and and easily dominated. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:16:42 PM EDT
[#17]
OP has stated that he no longer spanks his kids, and that his son is on meds for ADHD.
I think I've found your problem, OP. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:18:36 PM EDT
[#18]
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Make their lives unbearably un pleasant. It's the only way to correct confrontational behavior issues. Bare rooms, Bland food, endless chores, no activities, no communication with friends. They one upped and y'all blinked. One of them will break first, and start getting the good life back - the other will follow shortly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My children have repugnant behavior. My son is highly disrespectful (argues, name calls (especially to me), rolls eyes, mimics, etc.) and rude to adults (especially me). He is on a behavior chart at school and a day never goes by where he doesn't get minuses for poor behavior (disrespectful to school staff, arguing with teachers, blurting, etc.). If a week goes by and he isn't sent to the principal's office at least twice for a time out (just get him out of the classroom) I would be amazed. My son also seems incapable of connecting his bad behavior to consequences. If he gets punished for bad behavior he doesn't seem to understand it is because of his behavior. Instead, he believes 100% that his punishment is because the teachers, or I, am "mean" to him. My daughter is much less of a behavior concern than my son, unless the two of them are within ten feet of each other. At school she is fine - no behavior issues. At home she can be stubborn, but she eventually does what you ask of her. But get the two of them together and it's like a violent chemical reaction. They literally cannot stop pestering each other, hitting, kicking, making faces, name calling, etc. About the only time they cease trying to maim each other if is they are playing on their handheld video game things. Last night my wife came home in tears from the kids' 4H meeting. They were supposed to visit a retirement home to play Bingo and help the residents. My son the entire time kept lamenting aloud how "bored he was," and "when were they going to go home." Eventually my wife sat him in the corner so she and my daughter could play Bingo and help the residents. At the end of the night some of the kids from the 4H club put on a play for the residents. My kids, in the audience, were kicking, pushing, and pestering each other. Eventually my wife had to separate them on opposite side of the room until the play ended. And on the drive home the kids went at it again like lions and hyenas. After being grounded once they kept at it so they got grounded again. Both were very unhappy when they got home, and when I spoke with them my daughter understood she was grounded due to bad behavior, but said her behavior was "because of her brother bothering her." And my son complained that "Mom grounded me for no reason at all! She is mean!" Even after we clearly explained to him why he was grounded I could tell he wasn't making the connection. What have we tried over the ~4 years this behavior has been occurring? Time-outs, spankings, grounding off favorite things, behavior charts, and 1-2-3 Magic. Consistent? Yes we are. Model good behavior ourselves? Very much so. Stable loving home? Yes. Spoiled kids? Probably a little, but far less than other families in our income bracket. Both my kids are doing very well academically, scoring well above average on their achievement exams. Einstein once said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I feel like I'm living proof of this. After ~4 years of dealing with this with no improvement my wife and I are at our wits' end. I guess we thought if we modeled good behavior, were consistent in our punishment of bad behavior, and rewarded good behavior, given time they would mature out of it. This has not been the case. My son is 10 1/2 yrs old, and my daughter turns 9 in a few weeks. Any parents who dealt with behavior issue with your offspring have some advice on what to try? Because I'm all ears. Oh, and for the "beat your kids" crowd, yeah we spanked, and spanked, but it never resulted in them learning from their mistakes and not replicating bad behavior. For the tl;dr crowd - 10 1/2 and 9 yr old kids have bad behavior; we punish consistently (ground, spank (though very infrequently anymore), time outs, etc.); model good behavior ourselves; but nothing works. Seeking advice on what to try next. Thanks! Make their lives unbearably un pleasant. It's the only way to correct confrontational behavior issues. Bare rooms, Bland food, endless chores, no activities, no communication with friends. They one upped and y'all blinked. One of them will break first, and start getting the good life back - the other will follow shortly. Listen to this man's advice. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:19:21 PM EDT
[#19]
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Classic--God bless your mother. Please tell everyone how very close you are to her and how very much you love her. Which is counter-intuitive and the very essence of the "it's hard to be a parent" mantra. It broke her heart to discipline you but she KNEW it was what you needed--and she loved you enough to do what was NEEDED rather than what was easy for her. Please hug her and tell her how much you appreciate it. She will be THRILLED to hear it, regardless of both of your ages. I'm guessing you have already told her though.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My mom instilled the fear in me at a young age. I knew not to push her buttons. Having an ear bleeding scream helps. Still makes me cringe when she gets on to my neice. If I didn't say "thank you" or "yes ma'am/sir" and generally have good manners, I knew what the consequences were. You need to put the fear into the hellions. I dreaded bringing home a note from school. I would've never made it to the point of your son. I doubt I'd be walking right now if I did. Classic--God bless your mother. Please tell everyone how very close you are to her and how very much you love her. Which is counter-intuitive and the very essence of the "it's hard to be a parent" mantra. It broke her heart to discipline you but she KNEW it was what you needed--and she loved you enough to do what was NEEDED rather than what was easy for her. Please hug her and tell her how much you appreciate it. She will be THRILLED to hear it, regardless of both of your ages. I'm guessing you have already told her though. Yup. I love the hell out of my mom. She is a very strong and outgoing woman. She is still the boss though. She comes over to paint my whole house and in the same breath is getting on to me for something. This weekend she was over and found out I bought a motorcycle, she was giving me an earful as she was hugging me to leave.
I'm 31. 
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:19:56 PM EDT
[#20]
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Oppositional Defiant Disorder Counselling now FIRM parenting. NOW ODD is some clinical mumbo jumbo they made up so they could label "shitty kids". The kids don't have ODD they were just raised like shit. To be clear this is in general not about the OPs kids. My 4yo and 2 1/2 yo answer me always with yes dad and no dad. Starting the respect early is key. Bad behavior was punished from the get go. My kids were being strictly disciplined at 1 1/2 years old. I would start a harsh regimen of nothing. No tv, xbox, phone, friends, etc. They go to school and when they get home they have a minimum of 4 hours of chores each. Even if they finish their tasks early they still have to do the remainder of the time doing chores. If they decide they won't do chores a vicious beating is in order with a belt or switch. Then off to their bed rooms to do homework and sleep. Thats it. Occupy all their time with constant punishment. For food I would give only ham sandwiches and water. This will only take a few weeks . They will break. And when they do only give a little back. Keep the chores at 2 hours a day minimum. Edit: To add this is a marathon not a sprint. This thing will never end. You have to keep up the consistency. This late in the game you have to make up for lost time. Wait till they become teenagers. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:20:29 PM EDT
[#21]
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Oh, I count down for my kids, but I mean it. For everything, I ask nicely the first time. Then I tell you to do it. Then I count. You get five. If I get to zero, I make you do it, and you've not going to be happy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Did you do the "One . . . two . . . threeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" thing. If you did, that is your problem. Oh, I count down for my kids, but I mean it. For everything, I ask nicely the first time. Then I tell you to do it. Then I count. You get five. If I get to zero, I make you do it, and you've not going to be happy. I hope that works out for you. I'd bet you are raising hellions that will not be prepared for life. The school teacher, cop, boss, or etc. won't ask or count down from 5. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:21:45 PM EDT
[#22]
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Whip the shit out of them. It works...Ask my kids....3year old 10year old and 20 year old..... IT WORKS |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:24:10 PM EDT
[#23]
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Yeah, thought I did in my OP, but apparently I didn't (I was trying to keep it short(er) for the ADHD GD crowd that can't be bothered to read anything over two sentences).
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Drugs That probably should have been mentioned in the first place.
I was your son when I was a kid. Probably worse. There wasn't a bluff I wouldn't call. I began my adulthood a perpetual fuckup. Like big time fuckup. In my early 20's I finally made the connection and began the long, painful and ultimately worthwhile journey to end up where I am today at 35. Many of my similar minded peers did not. I have no advice, except to make sure he is always surrounded by quality, successful people. It was through watching them flourish while I floundered that I began to realize I was the source of all my problems. Best of luck, I live in terror that my children will be like me and go through what I went through.  In the end, I am the sum of my experiences and how I reacted to them, and it all worked out for me in the end. But there were many moments in my life where that possibility could have been snatched forever. I came damn close.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:24:34 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Psychiatrist or psychologist? The first is an MD who treats conditions with drugs--when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The second is a therapist who helps with trauma and other issues. For psychological issues, you should never be taking drugs for them if you aren't also getting counseling. That's treating the symptoms instead of the cause. Get a second opinion--maybe from a behavioral psychologist. Tell them you aren't trying to get an ADHD/ODD diagnosed, but trying to help your kid. (See my other post about parents trying to get ADHD/ODD diagnoses when not merited.) Look at the guidelines for ODD -- they aren't real strict or particularly difficult to meet--imagine being a kid who gets no exercise and is bored all day. How could you not exhibit these symptoms? http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20024559 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm not a parent or a mental health professional, but it sounds like your son might have some serious problems. Not being able to process that the punishment is a result of the bad behavior is troubling, IMO. Getting sent out of class multiple times a week? Yikes. Maybe professional help is in order. Psychiatrist or psychologist? The first is an MD who treats conditions with drugs--when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The second is a therapist who helps with trauma and other issues. For psychological issues, you should never be taking drugs for them if you aren't also getting counseling. That's treating the symptoms instead of the cause. Get a second opinion--maybe from a behavioral psychologist. Tell them you aren't trying to get an ADHD/ODD diagnosed, but trying to help your kid. (See my other post about parents trying to get ADHD/ODD diagnoses when not merited.) Look at the guidelines for ODD -- they aren't real strict or particularly difficult to meet--imagine being a kid who gets no exercise and is bored all day. How could you not exhibit these symptoms? http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20024559 |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:29:32 PM EDT
[#25]
I've always noticed that there's always a "favorite thing" at any given life stage I could use as leverage to mold behavior.
When she was 3 it was a stuffed animal, when she was 7 it was ice cream, now that shes 17 its a phone or a car. GL OP. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:30:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see a lot of whip the shit out out of them comments. I never liked physical punishment as a primary method for dealing with bad behavior. Too many parents don't know any other way but it can be effective for some kids. What gets me is your quote.... " their handheld video game things" I know what game systems my son plays and I know what games he plays. It makes me think you need to do some things that your son likes. At this age they are growing and exploring. Maybe I am wrong but it kinda sounds like you two are VERY different people and he is stuck with no power and limited choices. It can build resentment and increase acting out. Also, this part Last night my wife came home in tears from the kids' 4H meeting. They were supposed to visit a retirement home to play Bingo and help the residents. My son the entire time kept lamenting aloud how "bored he was," and "when were they going to go home." I am pretty sure I would act just like your kids. I would have ZERO desire to join a 4H club, I would have ZERO desire to play bingo with old people. Have you tried taking a trip with him, just you and him (not with a group)? Do you go see movies and talk about them? Does he read? This all being said, physical discipline can help, especially with some kids. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:31:16 PM EDT
[#27]
Most kids with problems behaving are due to parents expecting to much out of them before they are ready to be adults.
If you make a bunch of rules they are bound to break some. If the only attention you give is when they are bad ,they will be bad. If you constantly push on them that they are less than you they will dislike and not trust your love when and if it is offered. I know a child is not your friend but the parents who TRY to treat their kids as if they have an opinion that matters and give them freedom to make their own decisions combined with love and support rather than rules and punishment tend to have better results. I guess the point is that kids need to learn they can count on people and trust people and feel loved. If a parent tries to military style raise a child then they end up with mean, spiteful kids who do not trust, respect or care for anyone, including the parent. The days of telling a kid you know everything and they know nothing simply because you are the parent, making a bunch of rules that they follow exactly or get beaten and expecting them to magically become an adult who functions in modern society are gone. This does not work and the kids end up 30 years old still recovering from their childhood issues. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:32:14 PM EDT
[#28]
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Actually, no he never really threw tantrums. My daughter, on the other hand, has had some memorable ones over the years. But they were few and far between and I don't remember the last time she had one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Whip the shit out of them. Bend your son over your knee and spank him. Yes. Do it. It sounds like you didn't do this enough when he was younger. He's probably learned that he can throw tantrums and act like an ass and there are no consequences for it. Your OP described him throwing a tantrum.Acting like you described in public IS A TANTRUM. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:33:10 PM EDT
[#29]
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Make their lives unbearably un pleasant. It's the only way to correct confrontational behavior issues. Bare rooms, Bland food, endless chores, no activities, no communication with friends. They one upped and y'all blinked. One of them will break first, and start getting the good life back - the other will follow shortly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My children have repugnant behavior. My son is highly disrespectful (argues, name calls (especially to me), rolls eyes, mimics, etc.) and rude to adults (especially me). He is on a behavior chart at school and a day never goes by where he doesn't get minuses for poor behavior (disrespectful to school staff, arguing with teachers, blurting, etc.). If a week goes by and he isn't sent to the principal's office at least twice for a time out (just get him out of the classroom) I would be amazed. My son also seems incapable of connecting his bad behavior to consequences. If he gets punished for bad behavior he doesn't seem to understand it is because of his behavior. Instead, he believes 100% that his punishment is because the teachers, or I, am "mean" to him. My daughter is much less of a behavior concern than my son, unless the two of them are within ten feet of each other. At school she is fine - no behavior issues. At home she can be stubborn, but she eventually does what you ask of her. But get the two of them together and it's like a violent chemical reaction. They literally cannot stop pestering each other, hitting, kicking, making faces, name calling, etc. About the only time they cease trying to maim each other if is they are playing on their handheld video game things. Last night my wife came home in tears from the kids' 4H meeting. They were supposed to visit a retirement home to play Bingo and help the residents. My son the entire time kept lamenting aloud how "bored he was," and "when were they going to go home." Eventually my wife sat him in the corner so she and my daughter could play Bingo and help the residents. At the end of the night some of the kids from the 4H club put on a play for the residents. My kids, in the audience, were kicking, pushing, and pestering each other. Eventually my wife had to separate them on opposite side of the room until the play ended. And on the drive home the kids went at it again like lions and hyenas. After being grounded once they kept at it so they got grounded again. Both were very unhappy when they got home, and when I spoke with them my daughter understood she was grounded due to bad behavior, but said her behavior was "because of her brother bothering her." And my son complained that "Mom grounded me for no reason at all! She is mean!" Even after we clearly explained to him why he was grounded I could tell he wasn't making the connection. What have we tried over the ~4 years this behavior has been occurring? Time-outs, spankings, grounding off favorite things, behavior charts, and 1-2-3 Magic. Consistent? Yes we are. Model good behavior ourselves? Very much so. Stable loving home? Yes. Spoiled kids? Probably a little, but far less than other families in our income bracket. Both my kids are doing very well academically, scoring well above average on their achievement exams. Einstein once said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I feel like I'm living proof of this. After ~4 years of dealing with this with no improvement my wife and I are at our wits' end. I guess we thought if we modeled good behavior, were consistent in our punishment of bad behavior, and rewarded good behavior, given time they would mature out of it. This has not been the case. My son is 10 1/2 yrs old, and my daughter turns 9 in a few weeks. Any parents who dealt with behavior issue with your offspring have some advice on what to try? Because I'm all ears. Oh, and for the "beat your kids" crowd, yeah we spanked, and spanked, but it never resulted in them learning from their mistakes and not replicating bad behavior. For the tl;dr crowd - 10 1/2 and 9 yr old kids have bad behavior; we punish consistently (ground, spank (though very infrequently anymore), time outs, etc.); model good behavior ourselves; but nothing works. Seeking advice on what to try next. Thanks! Make their lives unbearably un pleasant. It's the only way to correct confrontational behavior issues. Bare rooms, Bland food, endless chores, no activities, no communication with friends. They one upped and y'all blinked. One of them will break first, and start getting the good life back - the other will follow shortly. Basic Psychology. Treat them like inmates and make sure you provide everything you HAVE to... and nothing more. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:34:40 PM EDT
[#30]
You might want to take them to a psychologist or psychiatrist (forget which one). You don't know if they have some other issue that is preventing you from connecting with them and helping them understand. Look up the thread here in GD from a couple weeks ago about aspergers and autism. These things are a spectrum. And there are tons of other things too that could be a hidden hurdle you need to be aware of. That thread from a couple weeks ago just put this in the forefront of my thoughts.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:35:03 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many hours of sleep is the kid getting each day? TRG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: l (my wife gives it t him first thing in the morning at 5:30 am when he wakes up). How many hours of sleep is the kid getting each day? TRG |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:38:10 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im just here for the excellent parenting advise from a generation that raised the society we live in. My bona fides. L to R. Oldest is a married employed rocket scientist. Middle, youngest is a 4.0+ student and saxophone section leader for 3+ years in an unlimited class High school band. She has never had a lesson. She wants to be a veterinarian. Right is my middle child. He had viral meningitis and tried to die on us. It had some lasting after effects. He is a second grade teacher, owns his own home and is engaged to be married. Based on how he was treated he does the opposite and takes kids with problems, gives them respect and get's results.  OP. Your kids neither fear or respect you. You have no influence over them. I prefer respect over fear. You must draw a line and dare them to step over it with well described penalties. Then you must do what you said you would do 100%. I do not think further spankings will work. Your son has learned he can survive your worst and ignore it. You need a plan b. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:38:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Had to look up ODD...sounds like a pre-cursor to becoming a sociopath, which is what your son sounds like. Treament for ODD sounds about the same as sociopathy, therapy, that's it. Some people are just born 'not right in the head' and there's nothing you can do about it.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:39:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most kids with problems behaving are due to parents expecting to much out of them before they are ready to be adults. If you make a bunch of rules they are bound to break some. If the only attention you give is when they are bad ,they will be bad. If you constantly push on them that they are less than you they will dislike and not trust your love when and if it is offered. I know a child is not your friend but the parents who TRY to treat their kids as if they have an opinion that matters and give them freedom to make their own decisions combined with love and support rather than rules and punishment tend to have better results. I guess the point is that kids need to learn they can count on people and trust people and feel loved. If a parent tries to military style raise a child then they end up with mean, spiteful kids who do not trust, respect or care for anyone, including the parent. The days of telling a kid you know everything and they know nothing simply because you are the parent, making a bunch of rules that they follow exactly or get beaten and expecting them to magically become an adult who functions in modern society are gone. This does not work and the kids end up 30 years old still recovering from their childhood issues. That works if the child has a foundation of following simple rules and respect for authority from early childhood. It sounds like the OPs kids don't have the foundation. Many parents don't start the respect/discipline cycle in the child's life until they are seeing problems I.E. 4 or later. This is because many parents think that kids don't understand them and set the bar for understanding way to low. The OPs kids are too far gone IMO. They need to learn behave and how to respect others. His kids have no respect for authority or adults in general. These traits have to be ingrained early. If he gives his kids this freedom you recommend his kids will never respect him or anybody else and the cycle will only get worse. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:42:11 PM EDT
[#35]
I didn't read 4 pages (I'm a 13er
), so this may have been suggested already, but if punishment for bad behavior doesn't work, try rewards for good behavior. Build a goal-based system. If they get through a day without getting into trouble, give them an hour of x-box, or whatever the hell they like. If they get through a week, they get a trip to Chuck-E-Cheese, or whatever.
Additionally, make sure you're taking enough time each week to spend quality time with the kids one at a time. Take one fishing, or go to a movie or something. Kids need to be reminded that parents are more than just enforcers, that they're a dependable fixture that's always there for them. It won't be an overnight transformation, but if your kids learn to respect you, your disappointment in their behavior will actually mean something. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:42:41 PM EDT
[#36]
I bought this many years ago: The Total Transformation Program by James Lehman.
It is a wonderful program. It coaches you how to model YOUR behavior as an effective parent so that you can clearly define expectations with your children. I listen to the CDs from time to time as a refresher, because it's nothing but good information and it will make you examine yourself. It's worth the investment. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:44:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I teach psychology. Research has shown that temporarily taking things away as punishment will not work. They will wait you out. Bribing does not work either as it develops a sense of entitlement. Long term changes do work but they are very difficult. 1. Take any TVs and computers out of the bedrooms. Now. If they want to watch, it is with you and your choices. They are not on computers unless you can monitor them full-time. kids don't have electronics/TVs in their bed rooms. Just one in the living room. 2. Reduce TV hours. Watch certain shows but do not leave it on for background noise. Kids don't get to watch TV every day. Maybe an hour every other day, at most. 3. Lay down the law....once. Do not repeat yourself. Do not argue. Let them go balistic and you need to act as if they are mute. If they start damaging things, then you have to stop them. The law has been well known in our home for years. It (and the repercussions) just doesn't stop them from occasionally breaking it. 4. Set a schedule. They are up at a certain time. They go to bed at a certain time. We have a fairly tight schedule. It gets a little looser during summer break, but not by much. 5. They do not hang out at their friends houses. They don't unless they are at a play date 6. They do homework. Anything less than straight A's is not acceptable. The do homework 5 nights per week, as soon as they get gome from school. 7. If the boy goes on on his mom, grab him by the shirt and shove him up against the wall. He needs to fear your reaction. Don't let that shit ride. That would be a tad too aggressive for my tastes, but I'm not going to say it hasn't happened once or twice in the past few years. You are the parent. You are the boss. You are not their friends. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:45:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something you posted a couple of weeks ago really bothered me. In the thread about sending messages to our past selves you wrote, "Don't have kids with your wife - you will both regret it because they will ruin your marriage and sex life and just make you both bitter people." That stayed with me for days and I felt so bad for your kids. Now that I know what you're dealing with it makes a little more sense but you have to wonder if the attitude that they're all trouble just feeds in into it. We have three kids and they all have completely different personalities. The youngest was a handful from the time she was born. It was a running joke around here, her nickname was Baby Hulk because of her anger issues (and freakish strength) and how she was only happy if there was something to be miserable about. At any rate, almost overnight when she turned 4 years old she transformed into a different child. She's actually pleasant to be around and she's turning into a darn good kid. What I honestly feel has made the biggest difference is, she told us that it hurt her feelings when we would talk or joke about her bad attitude and such. We didn't really mean it in a *negative* way-----as far as we were concerned it was just part of who she was and talking/joking about it was no different than when we'd talk/joke about our oldest daughter being obsessed with dinosaurs or our middle daughter walking on her tippy toes 24/7. But it apparently was having an effect on her. We apologized and have made a concerted effort to not focus on those things and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that it's a big reason why she also strives for better behavior. Anyway, just tossing out the idea that it's likely the kids pick up on the negative vibes and it gives them no incentive to want to change. I just know that it's far easier to change my own outlook and reactions to things than to change someone else's. Wow |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:48:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, you've already lost. The time to shape their minds/morals is long gone.
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:52:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Initially we paired a psychiatric and therapist. The psychiatric prescribed the meds, and monitored his height/weight, etc. And the therapist spent time monthly meeting/talking with us as a family and my son individually. After maybe three years we stopped going to the therapist since we felt it was having to positive effect. After stopping with the therapist we have not noticed any difference between the years he went and years since. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm not a parent or a mental health professional, but it sounds like your son might have some serious problems. Not being able to process that the punishment is a result of the bad behavior is troubling, IMO. Getting sent out of class multiple times a week? Yikes. Maybe professional help is in order. Psychiatrist or psychologist? The first is an MD who treats conditions with drugs--when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The second is a therapist who helps with trauma and other issues. For psychological issues, you should never be taking drugs for them if you aren't also getting counseling. That's treating the symptoms instead of the cause. Get a second opinion--maybe from a behavioral psychologist. Tell them you aren't trying to get an ADHD/ODD diagnosed, but trying to help your kid. (See my other post about parents trying to get ADHD/ODD diagnoses when not merited.) Look at the guidelines for ODD -- they aren't real strict or particularly difficult to meet--imagine being a kid who gets no exercise and is bored all day. How could you not exhibit these symptoms? http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20024559 You needed a different therapist or the diagnosis isn't right. Find someone who has a real plan to get you to stop attending. Otherwise the problem isn't being addressed--the child is simply drugged into (partial it appears) compliance. If they get offended or upset that you ask the first time you're there "How long should this take? When do you expect to be finished?" then find someone else. (There isn't a "right" answer for how long. They can give averages or min/max or even say each case is different, but they shouldn't be upset that your goal is to stop attending.) Some of the "supposed to do" for treatment is stuff suggested in this thread: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/basics/treatment/con-20024559 And http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/oppositional-defiant-disorder/basics/lifestyle-home-remedies/con-20024559 Make sure they're doing it. It sounds like some of coaching and whatnot could be useful. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:54:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Had to look up ODD...sounds like a pre-cursor to becoming a sociopath, which is what your son sounds like. Treament for ODD sounds about the same as sociopathy, therapy, that's it. Some people are just born 'not right in the head' and there's nothing you can do about it. Where did you look it up? Check the Mayo Clinic links I gave. It sounds like a normal child's reaction to being bored and kept from physical and mental activity. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:56:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It works...Ask my kids....3year old 10year old and 20 year old..... IT WORKS Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Whip the shit out of them. It works...Ask my kids....3year old 10year old and 20 year old..... IT WORKS |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 12:58:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Every child has their currency. Find theirs. Even if you have to get rid of everything the kids have and make them work to get it back, find what is important to them, and make them work for it.
When you do take what they like, their behavior will initially get worse, until they give in and the behavior gets better. You don't have to be angry or mean. Just consistent. Start with attainable goals, and a reward for reaching them. Then a slightly higher goal. And so on. Explain clearly and kindly what expectations are, when they ask for something, have them repeat the expectations, and ask if they have meet them. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:06:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had to look up ODD...sounds like a pre-cursor to becoming a sociopath, which is what your son sounds like. Treament for ODD sounds about the same as sociopathy, therapy, that's it. Some people are just born 'not right in the head' and there's nothing you can do about it. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:08:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My son has ADHD, and ODD. No drugs for the ODD, but he is on something for his ADHD and it helps tremendously. The difference between him pre-morning medication and post is night and day. In the mornings when he wakes up, and for about 60-90 minutes before his meds kick in, he is like a feral animal bouncing off the walls. Has this Lord of the Flies look in his eyes. Then the meds kick in and he becomes somewhat normal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Drugs Glad to see you already have the diagnosis so I don't have to address that.
Our son is 10 with Autism, and our daughter is 8 with ADHD. She acts almost exactly like you describe. We have tried the bare room technique mentioned above. Did not work. We have tried the reward route. Did not work. We have tried the spanking route. Mixed results as the behaviors lesson for a bit, but come always come back. We have tried the time out route. Did not work. It is very frustrating, and I know we have a limitesd time to try and get her settled down before it's going to be time for her to make her own way in the world. Next up is The Five Love Languages for kids. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:08:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every child has their currency. Find theirs. Even if you have to get rid of everything the kids have and make them work to get it back, find what is important to them, and make them work for it. When you do take what they like, their behavior will initially get worse, until they give in and the behavior gets better. You don't have to be angry or mean. Just consistent. Start with attainable goals, and a reward for reaching them. Then a slightly higher goal. And so on. Explain clearly and kindly what expectations are, when they ask for something, have them repeat the expectations, and ask if they have meet them. Good advice. The discipline has to be coupled with reasoned reward for good behavior. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:08:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Drugs Nah the schools will go to court to make that happen. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:09:55 PM EDT
[#48]
I have seen martial arts dramatically improve the behavior of several difficult and rude kids. The key is to find a martial arts facility that has a strong school master that demands students have proper etiquette and don’t let them goof off. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:11:36 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Son is medicated for his ADHD, but I (and the psychiatrist) think the majority of his behavior issues are unrelated. When my kids are apart (son gone on a sleep over at a friends) my daughter has almost no behavior problems. When my daughter is gone, my son's behavior issues still exist (but things are much calmer since he and his sister aren't going at it like cats and dogs). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'll also add, check the kids our with their Dr. to make sure all is good to go...No, not suggesting drugs. Good luck and keep up the good fight. Do you spend any alone time with her? I know my daughter craves attention as her brother gets lots due to his ASD. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 1:14:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryGlad to see you already have the diagnosis so I don't have to address that. Our son is 10 with Autism, and our daughter is 8 with ADHD. She acts almost exactly like you describe. We have tried the bare room technique mentioned above. Did not work. We have tried the reward route. Did not work. We have tried the spanking route. Mixed results as the behaviors lesson for a bit, but come always come back. We have tried the time out route. Did not work. It is very frustrating, and I know we have a limitesd time to try and get her settled down before it's going to be time for her to make her own way in the world. Next up is The Five Love Languages for kids. |
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