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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:00:47 AM EDT
So, having thought about the BATFE's shenanigans, it seems to me that someone needs to make some legal handgun AP ammo just to screw with them.
Nickle is $6-$7 a pound, pretty hard and reasonably dense. I would guess that a light for caliber nickle core, shaped like a KTW or Arcane bullet, with a thin (under 25%  ) electroplated copper jacket would have AP properties. Maybe try for a 80 grain-ish 9x19mm at +p+ 1500fps velocities. Maybe make a 5.7x28mm version to, for additional giggles.
Yes, I'm ignoring state and local legalities for areas with those issues. But what's the BATFE going to do if you have a homogenous core of an element that's not on the naughty list of "tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium". We know its completely irrelevant whether a projectile actually pierces soft armor, so why not make and sell ones that actually do? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:02:56 AM EDT
[#1]
You posted this twice.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:03:36 AM EDT
[#2]
I literally cannot fucking even
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:05:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I literally cannot fucking even His plan is totally workable. The BATFE would just make up some BS to yank your license, and possibly shoot your dog. A solid nickel core, even a hardened one, would be legal. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:05:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You posted this twice. Not on purpose, poor cell connection. I assume a mod will fix shortly. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:05:30 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You posted this twice. I was thinking the same thing. Op: How about not trying that? Don't poke the bear. Bears have a hell of a temper. They bite, too. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:07:29 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You posted this twice. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:07:37 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was thinking the same thing. Op: How about not trying that? Don't poke the bear. Bears have a hell of a temper. They bite, too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You posted this twice. I was thinking the same thing. Op: How about not trying that? Don't poke the bear. Bears have a hell of a temper. They bite, too. To be fair the more crazy shit the BATFE does, the more court cases we can fight them with. Poking the bear until it goes really crazy and a court puts it in its place is one way to win this. Who wants to volunteer to be a legal martyr? Don't everyone raise your hands at once... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:10:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was thinking the same thing. Op: How about not trying that? Don't poke the bear. Bears have a hell of a temper. They bite, too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You posted this twice. I was thinking the same thing. Op: How about not trying that? Don't poke the bear. Bears have a hell of a temper. They bite, too. I'm sort of torn on that. The bear already started this one. Its completely legal, and there's probably a market for it. Does SIG have a 006? This seems up their alley. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:14:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Why though? the FFL O6 can only sell the AP pistol ammo to the government or for export so it does little to rub in the face of the ATF.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:21:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair the more crazy shit the BATFE does, the more court cases we can fight them with. Poking the bear until it goes really crazy and a court puts it in its place is one way to win this. Who wants to volunteer to be a legal martyr? Don't everyone raise your hands at once... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You posted this twice. I was thinking the same thing. Op: How about not trying that? Don't poke the bear. Bears have a hell of a temper. They bite, too. To be fair the more crazy shit the BATFE does, the more court cases we can fight them with. Poking the bear until it goes really crazy and a court puts it in its place is one way to win this. Who wants to volunteer to be a legal martyr? Don't everyone raise your hands at once... Uhhh... fuck that shit. I'm more than happy to keep my hands out of cuffs, and my angus unpeppered. If you want to try it, go ahead. It's a free country. Just be sure to leave your full name and town of residence here. That way when you show up on the news, we can all honestly say: "Hey! I remember that guy! That's too bad for him, it used to be legal." I'm not going to be that guy... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:22:31 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why though? the FFL O6 can only sell the AP pistol ammo to the government or for export so it does little to rub in the face of the ATF. It wouldn't BE AP per the definitions. Nickle (and a bunch of other potential metals) aren't listed. They could sell it to anyone (except for local/state level restrictions). |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:22:40 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why though? the FFL O6 can only sell the AP pistol ammo to the government or for export so it does little to rub in the face of the ATF. Incorrect. The ammunition the OP is discussing would not meet the legal definition of AP. It would be no different than any other non-AP bullet, and could be sold to anyone in states lacking seperate laws on the matter. If a bullet can poke holes in something, or was designed to poke holes in something, has nothing to do with its legal status on the Federal level. Only materials used and jacket percentage matter. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:24:02 AM EDT
[#13]
I get it now, thought that nickel was a listed material.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:27:24 AM EDT
[#14]
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols?
Couldn't find anything in my quick googling |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:27:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get it now, thought that nickel was a listed material. I might also suggest nickel-cobalt alloys, various high density ceramics, and perhaps titanium (low density, I know... Make it long, and reap the velocity advantage). |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:29:34 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:34:45 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. I was just mostly cuirous. I know that some milspec 5.56 AP is steel sabots, and it would make more sense to have a mag full of AP sabots then an entire load out of steel core. Though I agree for this mental exercise we should probably stick away form the "scary" materials. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:37:00 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. I was thinking the same thing, I.E. avoiding alloys with significant amounts of listed materials. Can 80/20 nichrome wire be hardened? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:39:10 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was thinking the same thing, I.E. avoiding alloys with significant amounts of listed materials. Can 80/20 nichrome wire be hardened? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. I was thinking the same thing, I.E. avoiding alloys with significant amounts of listed materials. Can 80/20 nichrome wire be hardened? No idea... Isn't that stuff used in heating elements?
I think this is probably closer to what you need: http://www.specialtysteelsupply.com/pdf/MP35N.pdf |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:45:33 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No idea... Isn't that stuff used in heating elements? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. I was thinking the same thing, I.E. avoiding alloys with significant amounts of listed materials. Can 80/20 nichrome wire be hardened? No idea... Isn't that stuff used in heating elements? Yup. Weaponize your toaster, or more likely stove heating element.
Probably the easiest way might be nickel alloy welding rod cores. http://www.magmaweld.com/eni_424_nickel_stick_electrode.html |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 7:49:01 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yup. Weaponize your toaster, or more likely stove heating element.
Probably the easiest way might be nickel alloy welding rod cores. http://www.magmaweld.com/eni_424_nickel_stick_electrode.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. I was thinking the same thing, I.E. avoiding alloys with significant amounts of listed materials. Can 80/20 nichrome wire be hardened? No idea... Isn't that stuff used in heating elements? Yup. Weaponize your toaster, or more likely stove heating element.
Probably the easiest way might be nickel alloy welding rod cores. http://www.magmaweld.com/eni_424_nickel_stick_electrode.html Check out the alloy I posted above. None of the bad-touch materials and some good qualities. I believe the nickel-cobalt family may have the best performance from commercially available stock that does not contain prohibited materials. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 8:01:58 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Check out the alloy I posted above. None of the bad-touch materials and some good qualities. I believe the nickel-cobalt family may have the best performance from commercially available stock that does not contain prohibited materials. For pure performance Ni-Co is probably as good as it would get, off the shelf. It does look like you can buy 99% Ni welding rod for relatively cheap.http://www.weldingcity.com/filler-metals-stick/cast-iron-repair/eni-c1-ni99/1-8x14-rod-nickel99-ni99-eni-c1-5-pk-free-shipping.html The question is whether a 1/8" welding rod chunk in a drilled out 85 grain .380 bullet, driven at 1500fps would pierce soft armor... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:01:45 AM EDT
[#23]
New idea: rare earth magnet rods. Seems like they would be dense, and reasonably common.
Dunno his strongly magnetic bullets would feed though.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:02:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
New idea: rare earth magnet rods. Seems like they would be dense, and reasonably common. Dunno his strongly magnetic bullets would feed though. Those things are brittle, not cheap, and some contain iron. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:04:46 AM EDT
[#25]
No iron in this. No idea if SmCo is brittle.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:08:29 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryYeah, those are going to be very brittle. What about some form of cupronickel? Or Thorium.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:31:34 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was just mostly cuirous. I know that some milspec 5.56 AP is steel sabots, and it would make more sense to have a mag full of AP sabots then an entire load out of steel core. Though I agree for this mental exercise we should probably stick away form the "scary" materials. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Are steel sabots illegal for pistols? Couldn't find anything in my quick googling I would just assume we need to avoid all of the materials listed, since the BATFE has decided to just ignore "core" and "entirely" in the law. There are some really simple choices that should punch through no problem with a somewhat traditional design. I was just mostly cuirous. I know that some milspec 5.56 AP is steel sabots, and it would make more sense to have a mag full of AP sabots then an entire load out of steel core. Though I agree for this mental exercise we should probably stick away form the "scary" materials. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 10:33:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, those are going to be very brittle. What about some form of cupronickel? Or Thorium. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, those are going to be very brittle. What about some form of cupronickel? Or Thorium. Would thorium count as lead free in CA? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:11:43 AM EDT
[#29]
I want Tritium tipped bullets.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:13:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would thorium count as lead free in CA? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeah, those are going to be very brittle. What about some form of cupronickel? Or Thorium. Would thorium count as lead free in CA? Yes...
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:14:53 AM EDT
[#31]
OP - how about you write a letter to the ATF asking them if this is legal? Let's all do that and see what fucking happens mkay?
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:43:18 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP - how about you write a letter to the ATF asking them if this is legal? Let's all do that and see what fucking happens mkay? I thought GD hated people that play pen pal with the BATFE? 
If anyone can figure out how there's any applicable federal law against a Ni cored bullet with less than a 25% weight jacket, I'd love to hear it. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:49:58 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought GD hated people that play pen pal with the BATFE?
If anyone can figure out how there's any applicable federal law against a Ni cored bullet with less than a 25% weight jacket M855, I'd love to hear it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP - how about you write a letter to the ATF asking them if this is legal? Let's all do that and see what fucking happens mkay? I thought GD hated people that play pen pal with the BATFE?
If anyone can figure out how there's any applicable federal law against a Ni cored bullet with less than a 25% weight jacket M855, I'd love to hear it. Or this? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:52:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP - how about you write a letter to the ATF asking them if this is legal? Let's all do that and see what fucking happens mkay? I thought GD hated people that play pen pal with the BATFE?
If anyone can figure out how there's any applicable federal law against a Ni cored bullet with less than a 25% weight jacket M855, I'd love to hear it. Or this? While M855 does not meet the legal definition of AP, it does contain one of the listed materials, which gives them a straw to grasp at. In this case, they will have to blatantly just say "it's AP because we say so". Which will make an even better court case... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:59:05 AM EDT
[#35]
the AP handgun ammo law has ZERO to do with the performance of a round against soft armor. it is all about bullet construction. the ATF even straight up said that in their M855 ban notice
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Posted: 2/24/2015 11:59:23 AM EDT
[#36]
Intredasting.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:04:06 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the AP handgun ammo law has ZERO to do with the performance of a round against soft armor. it is all about bullet construction. the ATF even straight up said that in their M855 ban notice Obviously, that's the point of this... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:06:00 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While M855 does not meet the legal definition of AP, it does contain one of the listed materials, which gives them a straw to grasp at. In this case, they will have to blatantly just say "it's AP because we say so". Which will make an even better court case... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP - how about you write a letter to the ATF asking them if this is legal? Let's all do that and see what fucking happens mkay? I thought GD hated people that play pen pal with the BATFE?
If anyone can figure out how there's any applicable federal law against a Ni cored bullet with less than a 25% weight jacket M855, I'd love to hear it. Or this? While M855 does not meet the legal definition of AP, it does contain one of the listed materials, which gives them a straw to grasp at. In this case, they will have to blatantly just say "it's AP because we say so". Which will make an even better court case... On M855, the BATFE can argue jacket weight as well. Not saying that will hold up, since it was clearly not designed as a handgun round, being that it was around for something like 20 years as a rifle only cartridge. (Early 60's to late 70's). It IS bullshit, and I think that they aren't going to have much luck in court with it, but they do have the argument. If instead we have a bullet with less than 25% jacket weight, and no listed materials in the core, what's their argument? |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:07:02 PM EDT
[#39]
As a wise man once said, " Ridiculous regulations provoke transparent evasions."
As we should have learned by now, transparent evasions often provoke more ridiculous regulations. 
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:10:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
On M855, the BATFE can argue jacket weight as well. Not saying that will hold up, since it was clearly not designed as a handgun round, being that it was around for something like 20 years as a rifle only cartridge. (Early 60's to late 70's). It IS bullshit, and I think that they aren't going to have much luck in court with it, but they do have the argument. If instead we have a bullet with less than 25% jacket weight, and no listed materials in the core, what's their argument? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP - how about you write a letter to the ATF asking them if this is legal? Let's all do that and see what fucking happens mkay? I thought GD hated people that play pen pal with the BATFE?
If anyone can figure out how there's any applicable federal law against a Ni cored bullet with less than a 25% weight jacket M855, I'd love to hear it. Or this? While M855 does not meet the legal definition of AP, it does contain one of the listed materials, which gives them a straw to grasp at. In this case, they will have to blatantly just say "it's AP because we say so". Which will make an even better court case... On M855, the BATFE can argue jacket weight as well. Not saying that will hold up, since it was clearly not designed as a handgun round, being that it was around for something like 20 years as a rifle only cartridge. (Early 60's to late 70's). It IS bullshit, and I think that they aren't going to have much luck in court with it, but they do have the argument. If instead we have a bullet with less than 25% jacket weight, and no listed materials in the core, what's their argument? "We ARE the law." Which will hold up great in court. Looks like pure nickel can be age hardened. Perhaps forgo the jacket entirely? You could harden the projectile, and then perhaps (safely shielding the nose of the projectile with a heat sink) torch anneal the surface which contacts the bore? Goal being a differentially hardened projectile, hard tip and core, soft bore contact region... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:17:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"We ARE the law." Which will hold up great in court. Looks like pure nickel can be age hardened. Perhaps forgo the jacket entirely? You could harden the projectile, and then perhaps (safely shielding the nose of the projectile with a heat sink) torch anneal the surface which contacts the bore? Goal being a differentially hardened projectile, hard tip and core, soft bore contact region... How much you want to bet that they would call that a 100% jacket bullet? I think better to have a core and jacket construction of some sort, either electroplated on to the bullet or by reusing a commercial jacket. Well, if someone that had some swaging equipment (paging fat mcnasty...) they could just make jackets. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:20:08 PM EDT
[#42]
You want someone else to tickle the dragons tail?
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:21:17 PM EDT
[#43]
Cobalt is better. Because when they come for your ammo, you pop it into the neutron beam you have in your basement and turn the bullets into cobalt 60
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:28:01 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cobalt is better. Because when they come for your ammo, you pop it into the neutron beam you have in your basement and turn the bullets into cobalt 60 Good idea! That way when the BATFE can't figure out a charge that would stick, they can call in the NRC to talk to you. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:36:25 PM EDT
[#45]
If you want to pierce armor with a handgun, sabot a 55gr FMJ in a .357 or .44 and work up a Bullseye load until you crater primers. It'll go slick through a vest.
Turned nylon wadcutters ontop of a good charge of the same powder will do the same, up close, or so it's said. 
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:50:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you want to pierce armor with a handgun, sabot a 55gr FMJ in a .357 or .44 and work up a Bullseye load until you crater primers. It'll go slick through a vest. Turned nylon wadcutters ontop of a good charge of the same powder will do the same, up close, or so it's said. Theoretically, the 55gr FMJ might have too high of a jacket percentage to be legal. (Or at least some tool at DOJ might argue it) I want one that is completely, utterly kosher, but makes a mockery of the rule. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:52:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much you want to bet that they would call that a 100% jacket bullet? I think better to have a core and jacket construction of some sort, either electroplated on to the bullet or by reusing a commercial jacket. Well, if someone that had some swaging equipment (paging fat mcnasty...) they could just make jackets. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"We ARE the law." Which will hold up great in court. Looks like pure nickel can be age hardened. Perhaps forgo the jacket entirely? You could harden the projectile, and then perhaps (safely shielding the nose of the projectile with a heat sink) torch anneal the surface which contacts the bore? Goal being a differentially hardened projectile, hard tip and core, soft bore contact region... How much you want to bet that they would call that a 100% jacket bullet? I think better to have a core and jacket construction of some sort, either electroplated on to the bullet or by reusing a commercial jacket. Well, if someone that had some swaging equipment (paging fat mcnasty...) they could just make jackets. 100% jacket is an oxymoron.
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:55:07 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cobalt is better. Because when they come for your ammo, you pop it into the neutron beam you have in your basement and turn the bullets into cobalt 60 I'm filing this under "things that are completely normal for Keith_J"... |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
100% jacket is an oxymoron. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"We ARE the law." Which will hold up great in court. Looks like pure nickel can be age hardened. Perhaps forgo the jacket entirely? You could harden the projectile, and then perhaps (safely shielding the nose of the projectile with a heat sink) torch anneal the surface which contacts the bore? Goal being a differentially hardened projectile, hard tip and core, soft bore contact region... How much you want to bet that they would call that a 100% jacket bullet? I think better to have a core and jacket construction of some sort, either electroplated on to the bullet or by reusing a commercial jacket. Well, if someone that had some swaging equipment (paging fat mcnasty...) they could just make jackets. 100% jacket is an oxymoron. Agreed, though I can see the BATFE defining the jacket as "the layer of material that touches the bore". Safer to use copper the more I think about it. An interesting side note is that the 25% rule applies to full metal jacket designs. If you drill out a hollow point to carry a penetrator, it isn't a fully jacketed projectile anyway. |
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Posted: 2/24/2015 12:57:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Copper plated diamond boolits!
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