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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:33:56 AM EDT
[#1]
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.................. When I was hanging out with NSW guys in 2006--"Sharkbase" was right next to Ramadi medical--the guys thought JV was a joke. Certainly he came up on a BS session a time or two. As for the official Navy position, if it is not on your DD214, you can't call yourself one nor wear the device. Thanks for the info. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 8:46:15 AM EDT
[#2]
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You didn't answer my question. Should a person who never completed the stated qualifications of a warfare badge claim said warfare badge? There were published and available when JV was in. He was not a legacy of predecessors like the army air corps/air force example. When he was enlisted there were certain criteria to be a certain group and he could have completed that criteria but he did not. Now, in retrospect, he is to claim a warfare specialty he never qualified for in the first place? One dose not have to have "been there" to see what the stated and published qualification criteria and schools were. You know this, Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A lot of communities were created from previous communities and previous organizations. Does that make them the same? The facts of the matter is that JV is not a legacy like WWII and Korean swimmers, he was in during a certain time period when they were different units with different career paths and specific path to become a SEAL--something he did not do. A simple answer for yourself as a chief would, if he were to put on his old uniform but instead of the UDT trident, he put on a SEAL trident, would he be in proper uniform or not? You'd have to have a complete understanding of what was involved in awarding either of them. I wasn't there, and neither were you. I'm not a SEAL, and neither are you... Plenty of the people who were there say it doesn't matter, I'm not willing to argue with them, because they were there... At the time he was in the Navy, the difference between being UDT and being a SEAL was quite literally what UIC you were assigned to, not what training or pipeline you went through. If you really want your aviation analogies, here's one that makes sense... What you're arguing over is functionally the same as the Army Air Corps / USAF difference. At one time, there was a US Army Air Corps.... and then the people in the US Army Air Corps became USAF Officers. What uniform would my grandfather have worn, fifty years later, after the US Army Air Corps no longer existed? Probably a USAF equivalent, but did anybody really draft an instruction to cover it? The 5321 NEC hasn't been awarded since at least 1983 (probably much earlier, really, but I can't find any specific record) when everyone attached to a UDT team must have been awarded 5326, as the UDTs they were all attached to became SEAL and SDVT teams with a stroke of a pen as far as I can tell. So if he were claiming to be something he were not, I'd expect the SEAL community to be up in arms about it -- they're not shy about outing stolen valor posers, never have been. The opposite seems to be the case here, so I'm don't find it necessary to argue with them. You didn't answer my question. Should a person who never completed the stated qualifications of a warfare badge claim said warfare badge? There were published and available when JV was in. He was not a legacy of predecessors like the army air corps/air force example. When he was enlisted there were certain criteria to be a certain group and he could have completed that criteria but he did not. Now, in retrospect, he is to claim a warfare specialty he never qualified for in the first place? One dose not have to have "been there" to see what the stated and published qualification criteria and schools were. You know this, Do you know what the criteria to award 5326 in 1983 was? Specifically for all those who suddenly found themselves attached to SEAL teams when they'd been UDT their whole career? It's not as simple nor as cut and dried as you are trying to make it, when you've got senior members of the community who say it's not a problem I don't find it necessary to argue with them. They built the community, they decide who got called what, not me. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 8:53:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Because under our legal system, the wrong guy often wins in court.
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Posted: 1/31/2015 8:57:54 AM EDT
[#4]
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Yeah it actually did. Look up the case the woman suffered HORRIFIC injury. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He won because his lawyers convinced a jury that he should win, which is the ONLY reason anyone ever wins anything in a court of law. Now, do you think that some harsh words and a punch in the nose is worth $1.8 million? None of it happened. I've been punched in the nose more than a few times, had people say some pretty horrible things to me, and have even been lied about many times in my life. Never did it cost me a single dime. Let's assume that Ventura is telling the absolute truth and that everything Kyle said was a lie. Is it conceivable to you that Kyle's telling this lie actually damaged Ventura to the tune of $1.345 million? How did Ventura's team figure out that Kyle made $1.345 million by telling that lie? Did that woman's Hoo-Hah really sustain $1 million in damages by getting hot McDonalds coffee dumped on it? That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works. Yeah it actually did. Look up the case the woman suffered HORRIFIC injury. I love it when people bring up the supposed absurdity of that mcdonalds coffee case. I automatically know that that the people who think it was BS are the type of people to believe anything they hear without looking for contrary information, usually about anything. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:09:52 AM EDT
[#5]
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Because under our legal system, the wrong guy often wins in court. The simplest explanation is most often the correct explanation. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:22:45 AM EDT
[#6]
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You don't see Old timer OSS guys calling themselves Green Berets. I thought the OSS evolved into and was reconstituted as the CIA. No? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:26:25 AM EDT
[#7]
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Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Did Chris ever specifically say it was Ventura? Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura That is a claim made after he died by Brandon Webb. To my knowledge there is no direct quote from Kyle on this. Also there were just a little over 30 bodies recovered after Katrina that had gun shot wounds. That number does not jive with the claims made by Bracken. As to JV, I have a hard time believing Kyle would name a person if it was a lie. It serves no purpose. You can then have a direct challenge to your lie. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:31:08 AM EDT
[#8]
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first post nails it Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because Chris Kyle is dead and could not defend himself? first post nails it |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:33:54 AM EDT
[#9]
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My hatred for Jesse Started long before I even heard of Chris Kyle. he hurt his career long before Chris Kyle uttered his name. IF Chris lied about the 3 things that are constantly shown as being the examples of him lying, well shame on him. Does he get a pass for the lies because of all the lives he saved? yeah probably Is Ventura still a dirt bag? yep without a doubt I don't know I guess I am just used to vets embellishing things a little bit. A 5 jump Cherry in division probably has better stories then me anyways. What about all the lies and innuendos Jesse Ventura makes his money on? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:35:32 AM EDT
[#10]
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But those lies don't rise to the level of condemning Kyle as a murderous coward for god's sake. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Only on GD: Non Vet claims to be military = stolen Valor and person should be jailed Vet lies to sell books = mass approval because he is a Seal, his actions should have no consequences JV hires a lawyer to defend a public slander Case and his proven Correct = he is a douche who should choke himself and never hired a lawyer Someone's car/gun/iphone/dildo is accidentally damage by some else = hire a lawyer and sue their ass and scorched earth Disclaimer.....i dislike every case of stolen Valor I read about And if the widow profited in anyway from the sale of said book and movie she is a target But those lies don't rise to the level of condemning Kyle as a murderous coward for god's sake. Jess claims America is creating concentration camps for its citizens... |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:39:45 AM EDT
[#11]
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Juries always make the right call. 
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1136398/thumbs/o-OJ-SIMPSON-facebook.jpg 
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:43:36 AM EDT
[#12]
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SO much of this rests upon the ridiculous assumption that JV had a good reputation to begin with. No shit |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:44:58 AM EDT
[#13]
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No shit Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SO much of this rests upon the ridiculous assumption that JV had a good reputation to begin with. No shit Who do you guys think is more of a loon..........Jesse or Gwyneth Paltrow? That's a tough one IMHO. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:46:25 AM EDT
[#14]
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If you write a stories about your lies, tell millions about those lies, publish the book about the lies, and defend the lies, what does that make you? Governor of Minnesota? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:48:40 AM EDT
[#15]
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Honorable men don't lie. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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An honorable man would let it go. Further, an honorable man would not make the statements that Ventura has recently made. Honorable men don't lie. You've seen his 9-11 specials and his episodes about FEMA coffins? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 9:56:45 AM EDT
[#16]
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Governor of Minnesota? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you write a stories about your lies, tell millions about those lies, publish the book about the lies, and defend the lies, what does that make you? Governor of Minnesota?
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:00:29 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude told a lie to sell books. Said lie cost other dude money and resulted in liar gaining more money. Wrong was committed. Regardless of the unfortunate events following the suit, ventura's livelihood still took a hit whether or not you agree with his beliefs. But of course.... this America...where people are only okay if they believe the same shit you do. I'd say I think Ventura is an idiot...but no one will make it past the first three sentences without their panties getting in a twist and railing off on an emotional outburst about how I'm a bad American because I don't believe the hype on this silly shit. Dude did good shit in country. Tried to do good shit at home.... it's sad. Articulates my thoughts perfectly. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:09:01 AM EDT
[#18]
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What about all the lies and innuendos Jesse Ventura makes his money on? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My hatred for Jesse Started long before I even heard of Chris Kyle. he hurt his career long before Chris Kyle uttered his name. IF Chris lied about the 3 things that are constantly shown as being the examples of him lying, well shame on him. Does he get a pass for the lies because of all the lives he saved? yeah probably Is Ventura still a dirt bag? yep without a doubt I don't know I guess I am just used to vets embellishing things a little bit. A 5 jump Cherry in division probably has better stories then me anyways. What about all the lies and innuendos Jesse Ventura makes his money on? Indeed. 
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:09:20 AM EDT
[#19]
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Speculation. If you claim that then back it up with supporting evidence or anything remotely credible. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:16:30 AM EDT
[#20]
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The simplest explanation is most often the correct explanation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because under our legal system, the wrong guy often wins in court. The simplest explanation is most often the correct explanation. This a lot Secondly There is no excuse ever for taking from a dead mans widow in the first place ... FJV up his goat ass |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:20:05 AM EDT
[#21]
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This. My honor isn't for sale for any price or amount of fame. Making up bullshit to sell more books, ruined any honor Kyle had in my eyes. If I cannot believe one thing you say I can't believe anything you say. All of you saying what a great person Kyle was, imagine it's your wife fucking another man. "I swear honey it was only this one time." Would you believe her or would you dump her ass on the spot no matter how hot or how much money she had? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dude told a lie to sell books. Said lie cost other dude money and resulted in liar gaining more money. Wrong was committed. Regardless of the unfortunate events following the suit, Ventura's livelihood still took a hit whether or not you agree with his beliefs. But of course.... this America...where people are only okay if they believe the same shit you do. My honor isn't for sale for any price or amount of fame. Making up bullshit to sell more books, ruined any honor Kyle had in my eyes. If I cannot believe one thing you say I can't believe anything you say. All of you saying what a great person Kyle was, imagine it's your wife fucking another man. "I swear honey it was only this one time." Would you believe her or would you dump her ass on the spot no matter how hot or how much money she had? There isn't a human being that ever walked this planet no matter how great history or a Madison Ave public relations firm claims him to be that wasn't a sonofabitch to someone somewhere at least once. why do people lie when the truth would get them more? If I had to choose between Jesse Ventura and Chris Kyle in the who is more morale than who..... I'd pick Chris every single time. If Jesse had one single ounce of integrity he would have taken the win and left the widow alone.....painting himself as a victim.....he may as well put that feather boa back on..... |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 10:21:54 AM EDT
[#22]
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I thought the OSS evolved into and was reconstituted as the CIA. No? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You don't see Old timer OSS guys calling themselves Green Berets. I thought the OSS evolved into and was reconstituted as the CIA. No? Jedburg teams parachuted into France and trained some Partisan gruops. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 12:11:26 PM EDT
[#23]
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Jess claims America is creating concentration camps for its citizens... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Only on GD: Non Vet claims to be military = stolen Valor and person should be jailed Vet lies to sell books = mass approval because he is a Seal, his actions should have no consequences JV hires a lawyer to defend a public slander Case and his proven Correct = he is a douche who should choke himself and never hired a lawyer Someone's car/gun/iphone/dildo is accidentally damage by some else = hire a lawyer and sue their ass and scorched earth Disclaimer.....i dislike every case of stolen Valor I read about And if the widow profited in anyway from the sale of said book and movie she is a target But those lies don't rise to the level of condemning Kyle as a murderous coward for god's sake. Jess claims America is creating concentration camps for its citizens... But, but, but FEMA Trains |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 1:32:53 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There isn't a human being that ever walked this planet no matter how great history or a Madison Ave public relations firm claims him to be that wasn't a sonofabitch to someone somewhere at least once. why do people lie when the truth would get them more? If I had to choose between Jesse Ventura and Chris Kyle in the who is more morale than who..... I'd pick Chris every single time. If Jesse had one single ounce of integrity he would have taken the win and left the widow alone.....painting himself as a victim.....he may as well put that feather boa back on..... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: great history or a Madison Ave public relations firm claims him to be that wasn't a sonofabitch to someone somewhere at least once. why do people lie when the truth would get them more? If I had to choose between Jesse Ventura and Chris Kyle in the who is more morale than who..... I'd pick Chris every single time. If Jesse had one single ounce of integrity he would have taken the win and left the widow alone.....painting himself as a victim.....he may as well put that feather boa back on..... Every person they've interviewed about me have all said that I am "grumpy" but I treat everyone exactly the same no matter what. What I would do for one I do for all, what I would do to one I would do to all. I may not be their friend but they sure know I've got their back or will break it off in them if needed. I have no idea why people lie when the truth may hurt, but it hurts more to be caught in a lie. Dishonesty is a fireable offense a work. Want to guess what the shit storm mentioned above is turning into? I told the truth and got my pee pee smacked, the person who keeps making up shit isn't going to be so lucky. Neither one of them are worth a fuck in my book. Morals are not something you can put on and take off like a coat. You either have them or you don't. Ventura did not sue Kyle's widow, he sued Kyle and then after his death it went to the ESTATE of Kyle. The widow is simply a representative of the estate, same as anyone else who had an interest in Kyle. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 3:07:21 PM EDT
[#25]
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As to JV, I have a hard time believing Kyle would name a person if it was a lie. It serves no purpose. You can then have a direct challenge to your lie. Which a court can then rule on. Wit what? 
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Posted: 1/31/2015 3:12:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Hes human, and we as humans do stupid things.
The good outweighs the bad IMO. Free Quote HistoryQuoted: Was he ever able to explain why he lied? It just doesn't make sense to me. He was a hero in many ways, with I'm sure hundreds and hundreds of real stories to tell. Why make shit up?  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Did Chris ever specifically say it was Ventura? Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura Was he ever able to explain why he lied? It just doesn't make sense to me. He was a hero in many ways, with I'm sure hundreds and hundreds of real stories to tell. Why make shit up? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 5:26:35 PM EDT
[#27]
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Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Did Chris ever specifically say it was Ventura? Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura He didn't mention Katrina nor the gas station incident on the video, which are the incidents I'm debating. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 5:48:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What about all the lies and innuendos Jesse Ventura Rush Limbaugh makes his money on? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My hatred for Jesse Started long before I even heard of Chris Kyle. he hurt his career long before Chris Kyle uttered his name. IF Chris lied about the 3 things that are constantly shown as being the examples of him lying, well shame on him. Does he get a pass for the lies because of all the lives he saved? yeah probably Is Ventura still a dirt bag? yep without a doubt I don't know I guess I am just used to vets embellishing things a little bit. A 5 jump Cherry in division probably has better stories then me anyways. What about all the lies and innuendos Jesse Ventura Rush Limbaugh makes his money on?  |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:37:52 PM EDT
[#29]
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Which a court can then rule on. Wit what? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As to JV, I have a hard time believing Kyle would name a person if it was a lie. It serves no purpose. You can then have a direct challenge to your lie. Which a court can then rule on. Wit what? I'm not so sure you would have the same outcome in court if Kyle had been there to present his side of the story. In a civil trial the jury only has to believe 51% of one side to rule in their favor. In this trial the other person was dead and could not defend his position. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:39:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not so sure you would have the same outcome in court if Kyle had been there to present his side of the story. In a civil trial the jury only has to believe 51% of one side to rule in their favor. In this trial the other person was dead and could not defend his position. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:41:16 PM EDT
[#31]
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He didn't mention Katrina nor the gas station incident on the video, which are the incidents I'm debating. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Did Chris ever specifically say it was Ventura? Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura He didn't mention Katrina nor the gas station incident on the video, which are the incidents I'm debating. Katrina is not in his book and the only person I know who claims Kyle made that statement is Brandon Webb and it was put out there several months after he was murdered. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:42:52 PM EDT
[#32]
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They already had his disposition and none of the other witnesses died. It's not like his story was going to change and the jury had to have known he was dead at the time of the decision, which probably got his side even more sympathy than if he was a living millionaire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not so sure you would have the same outcome in court if Kyle had been there to present his side of the story. In a civil trial the jury only has to believe 51% of one side to rule in their favor. In this trial the other person was dead and could not defend his position. It's a big difference to read a statement than to see a person testify live. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:44:03 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a big difference to read a statement than to see a person testify live. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm not so sure you would have the same outcome in court if Kyle had been there to present his side of the story. In a civil trial the jury only has to believe 51% of one side to rule in their favor. In this trial the other person was dead and could not defend his position. It's a big difference to read a statement than to see a person testify live. ETA: Yep. " In the deposition, videotaped a year before his death, Chris Kyle said he could not remember who told him that Ventura had hit his head when he fell to the sidewalk, could not recall how he learned that Ventura had a black eye, and conceded that tables did not go "flying” during the 2006 confrontation in a bar near San Diego, which he described in his book "American Sniper.” While calmly stating that the fight had indeed occurred and that he had punched Ventura in the face, Kyle also conceded that Ventura may not have used a vulgarity in describing former President George W. Bush, which Kyle wrote in the book was one of the reasons he struck him." http://www.startribune.com/local/266448121.html |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:44:17 PM EDT
[#34]
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. This. There was no evidence JV said/did what was accused of so it was false/a lie. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:45:28 PM EDT
[#35]
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To me it doesn't matter if Kyle lied or not...once he died, Ventura should have let bygones be bygones. But no, typical of him, he proves he's an asshole and goes after the Estate/Kyle's widow. You CAN be technically right and yet still dead wrong. 250% this. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:54:45 PM EDT
[#36]
Found the Katrina claim.
The Long Shadow Of Katrina: Military Snipers Engaging U.S. Citizens? by Brandon Webb · April 15, 2013 · Posted In: Op-Ed In early 2012, I had an unexpected conversation with my friend Chris Kyle (author of American Sniper) about the Katrina debacle. I had heard rumblings about Special Operations snipers being deployed to New Orleans to support the effort to restore order. He confirmed the rumors and shared his own intimate knowledge that close contacts of his, many active duty Spec Ops snipers (some Navy SEALs), took leave to work for the controversial PMC (Private Military Company), Blackwater. Chris went on to tell me that the bulk of the guys he knew directly had racked up over thirty kills between them. I asked him about Rules of Engagement, and asked, “Who were they shooting at,” and he just gave me a big Texas shrug and smile. I figured out really quick that it was 180 grains of due process (usually to the head at 200M). http://wethearmed.com/military-and-law-enforcement/the-long-shadow-of-katrina-military-snipers-engaging-u-s-citizens/ |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 6:55:36 PM EDT
[#37]
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I believe it was a video deposition. ETA: Yep. " In the deposition, videotaped a year before his death, Chris Kyle said he could not remember who told him that Ventura had hit his head when he fell to the sidewalk, could not recall how he learned that Ventura had a black eye, and conceded that tables did not go "flying” during the 2006 confrontation in a bar near San Diego, which he described in his book "American Sniper.” While calmly stating that the fight had indeed occurred and that he had punched Ventura in the face, Kyle also conceded that Ventura may not have used a vulgarity in describing former President George W. Bush, which Kyle wrote in the book was one of the reasons he struck him." http://www.startribune.com/local/266448121.html Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not so sure you would have the same outcome in court if Kyle had been there to present his side of the story. In a civil trial the jury only has to believe 51% of one side to rule in their favor. In this trial the other person was dead and could not defend his position. It's a big difference to read a statement than to see a person testify live. ETA: Yep. " In the deposition, videotaped a year before his death, Chris Kyle said he could not remember who told him that Ventura had hit his head when he fell to the sidewalk, could not recall how he learned that Ventura had a black eye, and conceded that tables did not go "flying” during the 2006 confrontation in a bar near San Diego, which he described in his book "American Sniper.” While calmly stating that the fight had indeed occurred and that he had punched Ventura in the face, Kyle also conceded that Ventura may not have used a vulgarity in describing former President George W. Bush, which Kyle wrote in the book was one of the reasons he struck him." http://www.startribune.com/local/266448121.html Still don't know a jury would rule the same with live testimony. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:01:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still don't know a jury would rule the same with live testimony. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I believe it was a video deposition. ETA: Yep. " In the deposition, videotaped a year before his death, Chris Kyle said he could not remember who told him that Ventura had hit his head when he fell to the sidewalk, could not recall how he learned that Ventura had a black eye, and conceded that tables did not go "flying” during the 2006 confrontation in a bar near San Diego, which he described in his book "American Sniper.” While calmly stating that the fight had indeed occurred and that he had punched Ventura in the face, Kyle also conceded that Ventura may not have used a vulgarity in describing former President George W. Bush, which Kyle wrote in the book was one of the reasons he struck him." http://www.startribune.com/local/266448121.html Still don't know a jury would rule the same with live testimony. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:03:23 PM EDT
[#39]
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He didn't mention Katrina nor the gas station incident on the video, which are the incidents I'm debating. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Did Chris ever specifically say it was Ventura? Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura He didn't mention Katrina nor the gas station incident on the video, which are the incidents I'm debating. Gas station incident: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of-chris-kyle-01?single=1 Mooney asked him about it, and his response was aparently along the lines of saying he didn't want to get into it. It also says the incident appears in Lutrell's book Service -- a Navy SEAL at War, though I haven't read it. He had plenty of opportunity to debunk it, but he didn't, because it fit the persona he wanted to project -- whether it was true or not. The Katrina story comes from an article Brandon Webb published on SOFREP, apparently directly quoting Kyle saying exactly what's been claimed here. He took the story down later. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:04:32 PM EDT
[#40]
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Kyle: "You mean the time I shot two guys trying to steal my truck?" Vehement? Not really. I just like watching you claim he never actually said he did, and the fact you have nothing to answer when the links are provided. ETA: Previous Kyle thread where you white knighted him, and I linked to him saying he "...shot two guys trying to steal my truck." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Thats bullshit, and you know it. On two different Kyle threads I have posted actual quotes of Chris Kyle saying it happened. Not heard from a buddy, not from a buddy of a buddy, but from Kyle himself. You are so bought in on Kyle that you dont want to see it or read it. Stop bullshitting others that may believe what you say. Post the references here so that we can discuss them in this thread. Are you so vehement that you take an antagonistic approach with a total stranger? Perhaps you are the one with the issue. Kyle: "You mean the time I shot two guys trying to steal my truck?" Vehement? Not really. I just like watching you claim he never actually said he did, and the fact you have nothing to answer when the links are provided. ETA: Previous Kyle thread where you white knighted him, and I linked to him saying he "...shot two guys trying to steal my truck." Ah, I see you cite Mike Mooney. How am I not surprised you cited Mike Mooney? Because all of the reading I've done about those particular myths all circle back to Mike Mooney. Let's look at the guy you cite as the gospel truth shall we? Mike Moody is a "crimewriter" who writes salacious articles with titles like "Arlington Swingers Club Shutdown for Zoning Violations" and uses Snopes as a reference that "proves" Mike Brown was not a violent thug in the video. He wrote an e-book that he published AFTER Kyle's death that is based primarily on second and third hand sources. Conveniently, the subject of his e-book was dead and could not confirm nor deny anything Mike claims, much less refute what he said. Mooney is the ONLY source that claims Kyle was in New Orleans. Mooney is the ONLY source that claims Kyle confirmed the carjacking story. Mooney just happens to be the author of a book about Kyle that didn't come close to selling like "American Sniper" and you think he's an infallible source of information about the man? He couldn't possibly be making up tall tales to sell a book, right? Moody claims that he first heard the rumors while listening in on a bar conversation of several NSW types of but none of those present of the event corroborated that at all and denied that they were talking about it. In Moody's own book he said that Kyle didn't corroborate the story at all but left "believing it was true anyway." No corroboration but believing it was true anyway--that's journalistic integrity for you. Thus, if you are going to insult my intelligence and integrity for doubting the uncorroborated assertions of a salacious, ambulance chasing "crime writer" and are credulous enough to take those assertions as gospel, I've got nothing that can enlighten you . One will not understand the truth unless one wants to hear the truth. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:05:17 PM EDT
[#41]
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Even Chris Kyle agreed that Ventura was a SEAL. Your infatuation with this is bordering on obsessive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A lot of communities were created from previous communities and previous organizations. Does that make them the same? The facts of the matter is that JV is not a legacy like WWII and Korean swimmers, he was in during a certain time period when they were different units with different career paths and specific path to become a SEAL--something he did not do. A simple answer for yourself as a chief would, if he were to put on his old uniform but instead of the UDT trident, he put on a SEAL trident, would he be in proper uniform or not? You'd have to have a complete understanding of what was involved in awarding either of them. I wasn't there, and neither were you. I'm not a SEAL, and neither are you... Plenty of the people who were there say it doesn't matter, I'm not willing to argue with them, because they were there... At the time he was in the Navy, the difference between being UDT and being a SEAL was quite literally what UIC you were assigned to, not what training or pipeline you went through. If you really want your aviation analogies, here's one that makes sense... What you're arguing over is functionally the same as the Army Air Corps / USAF difference. At one time, there was a US Army Air Corps.... and then the people in the US Army Air Corps became USAF Officers. What uniform would my grandfather have worn, fifty years later, after the US Army Air Corps no longer existed? Probably a USAF equivalent, but did anybody really draft an instruction to cover it? The 5321 NEC hasn't been awarded since at least 1983 (probably much earlier, really, but I can't find any specific record) when everyone attached to a UDT team must have been awarded 5326, as the UDTs they were all attached to became SEAL and SDVT teams with a stroke of a pen as far as I can tell. So if he were claiming to be something he were not, I'd expect the SEAL community to be up in arms about it -- they're not shy about outing stolen valor posers, never have been. The opposite seems to be the case here, so I'm don't find it necessary to argue with them. You didn't answer my question. Should a person who never completed the stated qualifications of a warfare badge claim said warfare badge? There were published and available when JV was in. He was not a legacy of predecessors like the army air corps/air force example. When he was enlisted there were certain criteria to be a certain group and he could have completed that criteria but he did not. Now, in retrospect, he is to claim a warfare specialty he never qualified for in the first place? One dose not have to have "been there" to see what the stated and published qualification criteria and schools were. You know this, Even Chris Kyle agreed that Ventura was a SEAL. Your infatuation with this is bordering on obsessive. Not an infatuation but a clear and logically thought out opinion. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:16:21 PM EDT
[#42]
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Do you know what the criteria to award 5326 in 1983 was? Specifically for all those who suddenly found themselves attached to SEAL teams when they'd been UDT their whole career? It's not as simple nor as cut and dried as you are trying to make it, when you've got senior members of the community who say it's not a problem I don't find it necessary to argue with them. They built the community, they decide who got called what, not me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you know what the criteria to award 5326 in 1983 was? Specifically for all those who suddenly found themselves attached to SEAL teams when they'd been UDT their whole career? It's not as simple nor as cut and dried as you are trying to make it, when you've got senior members of the community who say it's not a problem I don't find it necessary to argue with them. They built the community, they decide who got called what, not me. Sure, they had to complete the training and undergo a probationary time period in the teams. Not all of the "old timers" agree with calling JV a SEAL. I asked Dick about the different NECs for UDT and SEALs. He didn't pause: "5321 for UDT, 5326 for SEALs. Anyone who'd only served in UDT before the Teams combined in 1983 couldn't truthfully claim to have been a SEAL." How do I know this? Because as the executive officer of SEAL Team 2, I recommended men for the 5326 designation after they had completed a six month probationary period. Many of these men came from UDTs as 5321/22s. As commanding officer of UDT 11, I awarded the 5321/22 designation to frogmen after their probationary period. Interchangeable designation my ass.
If Jesse were a SEAL, his DD 214 would also list at least one "Presidential Unit Citation for service Nam." How do I know this? Because of my duty with both SEAL Teams during the war. Every SEAL who served with Teams 1 and 2 received at least one DD 214 (NOT Jesse's)of the five Presidential Unit Citations awarded those units. UDTs received none. So c'mon, Jesse, show us your DD 214. You can even do that without breaking your vow never to talk about what you did as a "SEAL" in Nam. But no fair relying on public pronouncements by your old toadies in the Teams, or a scrap of paper signed by some fawning Navy bureaucrat 30 years later, saying it's okay for you to call yourself a SEAL because UDTs were decommissioned in 1983. After all, you wouldn't want to be dismissed as a "Paper SEAL" would you? I mean it's okay for some pencil-necked sandcrab like George Plimpton to joke about being a "Paper Tiger" instead of a true major leaguer, but aren't you claiming to be the real deal: an ass-kicking, name-taking Navy SEAL? If you can't take the word of the XO of the unit, whose word can you take? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:19:41 PM EDT
[#43]
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Gas station incident: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of-chris-kyle-01?single=1 Mooney asked him about it, and his response was aparently along the lines of saying he didn't want to get into it. It also says the incident appears in Lutrell's book Service -- a Navy SEAL at War, though I haven't read it. He had plenty of opportunity to debunk it, but he didn't, because it fit the persona he wanted to project -- whether it was true or not. The Katrina story comes from an article Brandon Webb published on SOFREP, apparently directly quoting Kyle saying exactly what's been claimed here. He took the story down later. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Chris Kyle fabricated several stories. One of them involved Jesse the shitstain Ventura. That's why he won. Did Chris ever specifically say it was Ventura? Yes he did on the #1 cable news show in America. I watched it when it aired. http://youtu.be/VU5MLcWXzfo Video admitting it at link. Also said he sniped looters in New Orleans post Katrina and put a cap in two at a gas station. Both of them complete fabrications. Kyle is still a hero to me, but he should have been ashamed to lie about these things. FWIW fuck ventura He didn't mention Katrina nor the gas station incident on the video, which are the incidents I'm debating. Gas station incident: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of-chris-kyle-01?single=1 Mooney asked him about it, and his response was aparently along the lines of saying he didn't want to get into it. It also says the incident appears in Lutrell's book Service -- a Navy SEAL at War, though I haven't read it. He had plenty of opportunity to debunk it, but he didn't, because it fit the persona he wanted to project -- whether it was true or not. The Katrina story comes from an article Brandon Webb published on SOFREP, apparently directly quoting Kyle saying exactly what's been claimed here. He took the story down later. And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims, one of which got his start from the other unsubstantiated claim (which was later retracted), and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:21:46 PM EDT
[#44]
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And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? Easy to claim statements about a dead man. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:22:15 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Gas station incident: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of-chris-kyle-01?single=1 Mooney asked him about it, and his response was aparently along the lines of saying he didn't want to get into it. It also says the incident appears in Lutrell's book Service -- a Navy SEAL at War, though I haven't read it. He had plenty of opportunity to debunk it, but he didn't, because it fit the persona he wanted to project -- whether it was true or not. The Katrina story comes from an article Brandon Webb published on SOFREP, apparently directly quoting Kyle saying exactly what's been claimed here. He took the story down later. And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:23:14 PM EDT
[#46]
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Easy to claim statements about a dead man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? Easy to claim statements about a dead man. Yep. And if you tell a falsehood often enough, people take it as gospel. How many people still think that they actually "heard" Sarah Palin say, "I can see Russia from my house?" Sometimes critical thinking is not a common trait. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:26:17 PM EDT
[#47]
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There's about as much evidence that Moody spoke to Kyle as there is that Kyle punched Ventura. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? At least both players were alive when the claim was made. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:28:07 PM EDT
[#48]
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There's about as much evidence that Moody spoke to Kyle as there is that Kyle punched Ventura. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Gas station incident: http://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2013/april/the-legend-of-chris-kyle-01?single=1 Mooney asked him about it, and his response was aparently along the lines of saying he didn't want to get into it. It also says the incident appears in Lutrell's book Service -- a Navy SEAL at War, though I haven't read it. He had plenty of opportunity to debunk it, but he didn't, because it fit the persona he wanted to project -- whether it was true or not. The Katrina story comes from an article Brandon Webb published on SOFREP, apparently directly quoting Kyle saying exactly what's been claimed here. He took the story down later. And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? Actually not so, there are several witness that were willing to state they saw Kyle punch Ventura, not so much Moody's claims. The juror pointed to the statements of individual defense witnesses who claimed they saw or heard about the fight or Ventura’s alleged disparaging remarks about SEALs. In questions elicited by the defense, the SEAL witnesses said that while they once respected Ventura, they now held a very negative opinion of him. http://www.startribune.com/local/269697941.html |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:41:38 PM EDT
[#49]
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Found the Katrina claim. The Long Shadow Of Katrina: Military Snipers Engaging U.S. Citizens? by Brandon Webb · April 15, 2013 · Posted In: Op-Ed In early 2012, I had an unexpected conversation with my friend Chris Kyle (author of American Sniper) about the Katrina debacle. I had heard rumblings about Special Operations snipers being deployed to New Orleans to support the effort to restore order. He confirmed the rumors and shared his own intimate knowledge that close contacts of his, many active duty Spec Ops snipers (some Navy SEALs), took leave to work for the controversial PMC (Private Military Company), Blackwater. Chris went on to tell me that the bulk of the guys he knew directly had racked up over thirty kills between them. I asked him about Rules of Engagement, and asked, “Who were they shooting at,” and he just gave me a big Texas shrug and smile. I figured out really quick that it was 180 grains of due process (usually to the head at 200M). http://wethearmed.com/military-and-law-enforcement/the-long-shadow-of-katrina-military-snipers-engaging-u-s-citizens/ Smells like Webb is full of shit. Yet a healthy percentage of Arfcommers repeatedly bring it up in Chris Kyle threads and lay it out there like Kyle directly said it. |
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Posted: 1/31/2015 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#50]
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And there really is no evidence that Moody actually spoke to Kyle, either. We have two unsubstantiated claims, one of which got his start from the other unsubstantiated claim (which was later retracted), and y'all want to crucify a guy based on that? What is this, DU? So you think Mooney made up the story about interviewing Kyle? That would be really easy to prove if that were the case, I wonder why no one has tried... Maybe because the interview happened, and happened the way he said it happened. The story didn't start with Mooney. It's been around for at least a couple of years. Mooney claims to have asked him about it. Neither story was "retracted". Webb just deleted the story and redirected all links to it to a story about the 82nd airborne. If he were going to "retract" it, he'd have printed a retraction. Webb was the primary source, he claimed to have been there when Kyle told the story. The carjacking story is in a book written by a fellow SEAL, Kyle could certainly have debunked that while he was alive, it's absurd to think that Lutrell didn't ask him about it before he published it. He chose to let that story stand, regardless of where it came from. |
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