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The US did not have significant casualties in WWII. Dropping bombs from airplanes will result in fewer casualties than being invaded by the militarily superior Germans. Fact is, France surrendered before the Germans even reached Paris. The French did not have the stomach to replay WWI, so they just rolled over instead. Go visit Paris or Toulouse and see how they were damaged in WWII (they weren't). Compare that to most European cities, which were reduced to rubble.

 

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LOL, you fail at reading. That was exactly my point. France fought a tough war in WWI with lots of casualties. They were not prepared to do the same in WWII.

 

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Don't need to google it, I got a certificate that says it when I graduated with honors from college in that most useless degree. Good for arguing on the internet, watching Jeopardy and shaking your head in disgust when you watch people constantly making the same mistakes over and over again.

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My degrees are in other fields but I took enough history to be invited into Phi Alpha Theta (i've never made anything other than an A in history) and was state champ HS history competition (world history and shared title in American history)

So, when you post as if you are the only 13er motherfucker on ARFCOM who has ever cracked a history book---you see how we want to keyboard punch you.

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My degrees are in other fields but I took enough history to be invited into Phi Alpha Theta (i've never made anything other than an A in history) and was state champ HS history competition (world history and shared title in American history)
So, when you post as if you are the only 13er motherfucker on ARFCOM who has ever cracked a history book---you see how we want to keyboard punch you.

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Yeah. I agree with the penguin. I'm interested to see what this amazing "certificate" is though. Most of us call it a "diploma" and  it usually says something like "MA in Medieval History" or something like that.

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To be honest, I didn't even know what it was until after I got the certificate. I finished school in Dec '06 and had them mail me my diploma (I was in Iraq when everyone else walked). I came home on leave and it was in the envelope with my diploma and stuff. I had to Google it. I knew I'd graduated Cum Laude but didn't know there was some History honor society.    

I actually registered originally in 2007 but never posted and forgot I had a username. I re-registered in 2013. But I like crushing stereotypes so I'll proudly where the 13er armband. I'll make that shit cool...

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Yeah. I agree with the penguin. I'm interested to see what this amazing "certificate" is though. Most of us call it a "diploma" and  it usually says something like "MA in Medieval History" or something like that.

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Yeah but that's not really fair considering they had half of it locked down forever (ulterior? somethingterior?), and then they had to deal with Sertorius and his rabble rousing. But I see your point. However, you'll never convince me that Caesar would've still been killed if he would've went full Stalin on his opponents in the Senate as soon as he got back from Greece.

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The point of the video was not to demonstrate the effectiveness of bovine lightning fast reflexes. It demonstrated what happens when a truck runs over living things. It does it easy with no real resistance.

Combat veterans from 2,000 years ago are going to have two options if a big ass  truck is quickly approaching their formation, both of which work perfectly to the truck drivers.

- They can stand still and try to protect themselves by locking shields and posting out spears and javelins, akin to how they would resist against horses and even elephants. And get crushed by something 1,000x worse than a horse or war elephant

- They can all break formation and run to the only place open, the rear, which will cause a big ass hole to open in their line. Once others see that hole open, and more trucks enter that hole, the integrity of the line (that most important thing in battle) is in doubt, and dudes everywhere will run.

Your 3 year old could probably understand what I'm stating but for some reason you cant. So once more, for you and others that have difficulty understanding things, let me spell it out.


Reasons the Romans would get their asses kicked in Ferguson


1. Romans march and fight in formations. That's how they roll. Don't like it? Want a more "fluid" unit better at skirmishing? Then don't pick the Romans.

2. The fight between Romans and rioters would happen here: http://goo.gl/maps/J3xz3 Which is where the rioting took place, where stores were looted, only a block away from where Michael Brown was killed. In the width of Florissant Ave (5 lanes), you can fit probably a whole cohort on line. You can also fit at least two dump trucks to drive comfortably in one direction.

3. The Roman force depends upon maintaining the integrity of the line. Casualties didn't cause routs, loss of unit integrity causes holes in lines, allowing enemy to come through them and threaten the sides and rears of other formations, causes routs. Commanders like centurions, praefects, tribunes can only control the men if they have them in formations that allow one person to control 60-100 men, which means a tightly packed rectangle. Loose formation require self discipline, lots of independent training, and pre-designated small unit leaders like platoon/squad/section/team leaders, none of which was done by the Romans. The smallest tactical subunit was the fighting century, controlled by a centurion, assisted by a few others.

4. When a garbage truck drives into that rectangle of flesh, wood, iron, at 50 mph, bad things are going to happen and it wont be to the truck. As demonstrated by the video of the truck driving through a herd of cow, running over those massive beasts did little to even slow it down. So a garbage truck will punch right through the initial line of Romans, leaving nothing but broken bodies in its wake. Those in the way of the truck will be crushed, those immediately outside the way will be in shock as they see what they think can only be a mythical invulnerable metal beast run through their formation like it was nothing. Unit integrity for a century/maniple that takes a solid hit would be fucking GONE. Key leaders would probably die and if they didn't, they wouldn't have a fucking clue what order to give. Meanwhile, panic will spread within the unit. The only thing an officer could do is try to calm the men and get them back in formation, filling in the holes in the line, which just makes them more vulnerable to second echelon attacks from more trucks.

5. Behind the initial Roman line, also marching on Florissant toward the FSA protesters, will be more lines of Roman infantry, more echelons, but spaced out between each other. These forces will have seen the truck run though the 1st line (probably made up of the more elite units). Now we go back to the two options. Individually, they can all make up their minds rather quickly: Stay and get crushed, or run and lose cohesion. You don't need a PhD in Roman history to know what they will probably do. Do the Romans have any means they are aware of to stop the armored elephant cheetahs? No, so that means running away.

6. Meanwhile, the truck doesn't need to turn, it doesn't need to do anything but keep driving straight down Florissant, in a steady manner, in a decent speed, until it either crashed through every Roman line or chased everyone away. It served its purpose, as a modern version of a fully training, unflinching, fully armored elephant on speed. The driver can continue on a few miles and hit McDonalds for a double cheeseburger while other trucks repeat what he did.

7. Instead of doing this all with just one truck, you can do it with many trucks. Steal every box truck, garbage truck, and dump truck you can find in Ferguson, fuel them up, put them in pairs, coordinate in the most basic means. Each echelon would basically drive unopposed through the Roman line, destroying it, each successive wave guaranteeing victory that much easier. By the 3rd wave of trucks, they'd just be crushing already dead bodies into more road pizza because by then the Roman legion as a whole, having seen all this happen, would know they have NOTHING that can stop these metal elephant cheetahs and they would rout, trying to run back to the safety of their camp. They wouldn't march away in good order and discipline, because to do so would face the wrath of another truck running into them. Truckers would target large groups, not small ones.



Now you might think you're brilliant by stating beforehand "I'll simply break my legions up into small groups and that way I wont have to worry about trucks." The problem with that is twofold. One is that it relies on Romans from 2,000 years ago knowing how dangerous trucks will be to their formation or that they even exist. In addition, an order like that can't just be given out quickly to the men in battle. Once shocking acts of brutality and carnage begin occurring against the Romans in the form of big ass trucks crushing them, no one is going to be patiently wait for new orders in the form of trumpet calls, dipping standards, or messengers, especially when loud ear splitting music is being pumped into the neighborhood, to purposely conduct sensory overload.


More realistic and important is that ordering "Pursuit" (Legion speak for the trumpet call that releases the army to continue attacking, but out of formation) makes it notoriously hard to control the men thereafter. A tactic widely used in the ancient world was to feign retreat to cause the enemy to give chase early, which would cost them unit integrity, only to turn at a predesignated time and fight them as a whole unit (Thermopylae, Chaeronea, Cannae). Releasing infantry in pursuit was ONLY done in the ancient world if the enemy were either already routing (not a hint of true resistance or it could mean disaster), in terrain like forests or mountains (against equally loose enemy), or in heavily built up cities when fighting in formations wasn't possible. (By built up cities I mean extreme close housing, alley ways and large blocks of tenement apartments; in forums they fought in formation).


When released, leaders have little control over their men, it takes a VERY long time to gather everyone back into some cohesive force, removes the protection of the group/formation and does not allow the soldiers to properly defend themselves against a threatening force or adversary. The strength of the ancient soldier was not individual, it relied on teamwork and cohesiveness, which is why battles were designed not to kill people but to break down an enemy's cohesion. How would a small group of Romans going house to house act when a house they entered blew up like the volcano of Versuvius (someone inside cut gas line and ran out back door)? You think they'd keep going? What leader would stop them from running away? I believe "herding cats" would be the best way of describing any attempt to reform a unit in contact.



The emergency rooms of most major cities are full of people there because they couldn't dodge traffic. Unless your alter ego is named Superman or the Flash, you're not dodging shit either. Trucks would cut through the formation of a Roman like a baseball through tissue paper. It would literally be like bowling, but the pins would explode in blood, bone, and guts.
 
 

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Are you doubting that someone of my knowledge is a member of the National Historical Honor Society?

When you are put on the rolls of the Phi Alpha Theta, you get a fancy piece of paper, commonly referred to as a "certificate" in the English language. That's addition to the diploma, as well as in addition to the certificate that states I graduated with honors. I'm sorry when you graduated from the Service Academy, you only got a diploma. Must be underwhelming. J/k

I think its a check the block certificate/honor you get for getting Cum Laud in a History major. I double majored and the other one didn't even show up on my diploma, that had me calling the University to bitch. The honor society shit was never something I really cared about. I never really thought about it until it was brought up in this thread.


 

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Are you doubting that someone of my knowledge is a member of the National Historical Honor Society?

When you are put on the rolls of the Phi Alpha Theta, you get a fancy piece of paper, commonly referred to as a "certificate" in the English language. That's addition to the diploma, as well as in addition to the certificate that states I graduated with honors. I'm sorry when you graduated from the Service Academy, you only got a diploma. Must be underwhelming. J/k

I think its a check the block certificate/honor you get for getting Cum Laud in a History major. I double majored and the other one didn't even show up on my diploma, that had me calling the University to bitch. The honor society shit was never something I really cared about. I never really thought about it until it was brought up in this thread.


 

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A little condescending for a guy with just an undergraduate degree, dontcha think?



I know a few guys with PhD's in history that have not done a single course in Roman history--simply having a BA in history does not make one a subject matter expert on a certain period nor does it indicate that one has done more study on a particular subject than one who does not have a BA in history. Like above, I've had more military history classes than a few PhD's in history I know.



Thus, one does not need to denigrate the knowledge of a subject of another.  



ETA: Just to show an effort to be conciliatory, I just bought you a team membership.

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a few hundred caltrops and then what?

take out the tires and the vehicles do what?

a few fire bombs and the vehicles do what?

if I'm picking and transporting the legion, guess what? I'm giving them some intel on the objectives and what to expect.

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a few hundred caltrops and then what?





take out the tires and the vehicles do what?





a few fire bombs and the vehicles do what?





if I'm picking and transporting the legion, guess what? I'm giving them some intel on the objectives and what to expect.

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I believe at best a Roman Legion could set up camp in 6 hours.  Which was amazing for the time and a testament to the organization and discipline of the Legion.  But factor that in, plus an hour to then form up and prepare to march.  If we teleported our army at dawn, which in late November was just before 7 AM, the Legion isn't ready to advance on Ferguson until around 2:00 PM at the absolute earliest.  Sunset in Ferguson on Nov 24th is at 4:46 PM, giving the Romans less than 3 hours of daylight to attack the city.  I don't believe there is a Roman commander anywhere that would have opted to attack this very strange city at 2 in the afternoon with less than 3 hours of daylight remaining on the first day they arrived.  Meaning in all likelihood, the earliest they could be expected to attack would be the following morning at dawn.





This means the FSA gets a full day to prepare, and it also means the Romans have to watch the city light up at night and listen to the roar of cars and trucks and all other manner of sound, which as has been stated would have a terrifying effect.  The criminal elements in the FSA might even realize that it is in their best interest to launch an attack that night.  The criminal element in the FSA is used to operating at night, the Romans not so much.  There is a strong likelihood that the battle is not waged in the streets of Ferguson, but instead the FSA drives a few pickup trucks right into the Roman camp as they sleep.  The Roman palisade wall would be no match for a dump truck or garbage truck.  The speed at which the FSA could approach would completely catch the posted guards unprepared, and unable to rouse the Romans in time.  The FSA could just plow through row after row of Roman tents.  The carnage would be epic.  No need to wait for the Romans to attack.

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Romans typically didn't fight in the winter at all, when they did it was usually in warmer climates. Not only did they need the time for refit, but during winter there was limited daylight, less forage for animals, digging was near impossible for daily marching camp, and the cold destroyed morale.    

Digging a proper camp in Missouri in November when the ground is hard as shit would be a chore of itself. So I'd say at least a full day of digging ramparts/ditches. Then comes the scouting, because the Romans had no real understanding of maps. Scouts would be sent out in order to get a decent 'picture' of the battlefield and surrounding terrain/roads/ingress/egress routes. If the Roman commander was stupid, he'd try to do this with cavalry, a smarter idea would be to select top quality trusted people and have them attempt to infiltrate the area on foot and in disguise (good luck blending in with that area). This would likely occur while the main force is digging in, prepping. Upon completion, the scouting element would report back to the command (I'd love to sit in on that war council).


I think the best overall plan for the Romans, and most likely based on their tactics, would be to attempt to put a flanking/blocking position on the northwestern side of Florissant Ave. (Lang Dr. or Highmont Dr.) while their main force approaches from the south, heading north on Florissant Ave. However, they'd have zero ability to perform any movements covertly and their positions would likely be reported realtime by thousands of residents watching from homes, as well as TV news chopper flying overhead (story of a lifetime). The progress of any force marching out of their camp would be seriously hindered by potshots from "snipers" firing from homes, apartment complexes, etc., as well as any pre-planned terror tactics. For instance, I'd light cars that sit along their obvious march route on fire, but not before I chucked a couple of common propane tanks inside them. Romans have never seen a fuel air explosion before and I'd be happy to demonstrate them as much as possible. I'd also crack every fire hydrant along the way to make the roads nice and slippery. If the night got cold enough maybe some ice would form too. Loud rap music would be blasted, drive by shootings from cars, and the shock tactic of course would be the truck assault. Depending on how quickly the Romans broke, the rioters might actually have the balls to chase after them and attempt to take their camp, though that might go poorly. But as an effective force, the Romans at that point would be done for.
 

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That was beautiful.

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That would definitely work but I think its a bit outside the abilities of FSA rioters. Too much equipment, too many smart people would be needed.

Here's an idea that one person could execute:
For explosions, I'd go to nearest store that has those bins to exchange propane tanks, steal as many as I could. At 2 AM, put a bunch in a minivan, drive them right next to the camp, open the valves, get out and shut doors with windows up. Stick rag in gas tank and light it and run like a motherfucker. The explosion would deafen the whole camp, probably kill half the horse/mules in fright, give about every 50 year old or older centurion a massive coronary, and make everyone else into a babbling wreck praying to Jupiter and the heavens to save them from his mighty wrath. The whole camp would reek of shit when the legion collectively craps itself. Maybe then get some store bought fireworks and light them off to explode harmlessly over the camp. Psychologically the legion will be spent, before anyone is even in battle. Any officer that tries to form the men for battle will get two feet of gladius in the belly by his own dudes.

Should they attempt to even leave their camp, break out a truck to run their asses over. If they break out in small group, they still have to use the roads, so I'd still run their asses over. As the other FSA see this happen, more will do the same.

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Yeah, Gauls would be more willing to attack upon arrival, not being slaves to the camp SOP.  Much more willing to act as disbanded small units, and leaderless units.  Can move much faster and with less command and control, which is better suited to hitting the FSA in Ferguson.  More likely to be a little loaded up on mead and whipped into a frenzy, and perhaps not as easily spooked because of that.  More likely to adapt because not as reliant on the unit...meaning more likely to break off an chase rioters into buildings or down alleys, taking away FSA's ability to engage in hit and run guerilla warfare on a slower moving monolithic roman formation who fights primarily from the defensive position.





I like the Gauls chances way more than the Romans.

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You are overthinking this. A few determined riflemen on top of a building could rout the whole legion. You could probably take all of Rome with 24 troops armed with ARs, sufficient ammo and dump trucks. It would not be hard to find some basement dwellers willing to volunteer to trade their current life to become the new Emperors of ancient Rome
 

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You know what?  Fuck it, let's just steal a single gas refueling truck, plow that MFer through the front gate, blow that up and be done with it.  Roman Legion defeated on night one, in about 5 minutes.





http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QKKErktneKs/VDQgqv2V5AI/AAAAAAAIRvw/UNv2_Bd2gwE/s1600/PILOT%2BFlying%2BJ%2BPeterbilt%2BDay%2BCab%2BTruck%2B5632%2BGasoline%2BFuel%2BTank%2BTrailer,%2BPilot%2BTruck%2BStop%2BAlbany%2BGeorgia%2BHwy.%2B300%2BGas%2BStation%2BRefueling.JPG





One man, equipped with an AR to fight his way quickly out of the camp, delayed charge.  One man, defeats the entire legion.  One.

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City limits are like 10 miles from riot position. No way would the Romans put their fall back position (which is what the camp really was) a days march away.