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Posted: 12/26/2014 10:22:27 AM EDT
Just posted tonight in a local gun group. This is the first specific letter I have seen dealing with the sig brace, and an AR15. This is not the same letter that you have all seen, it is new, as in tonight. Or you can wait a couple days or so and I am sure TAG or some other better late than never gun blog will have it in there. I did not write the letter, I have nothing to do with it, just passing along the information.
---------------------------- Edit to add new pics of entire letter that I received from the individual that wrote the inquiry. 
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:49:50 AM EDT
[#1]
Who honestly didn't see that coming? I've anticipated that such a ruling would be coming down the pipe ever since the craze started for guys wanting to add these braces to "pistols". If you want an SBR, just get the stamp and have the real thing. Gotta pay to play unfortunately.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:50:13 AM EDT
[#2]
That's what happens when people keep poking the bear...it bites back.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:52:16 AM EDT
[#3]
I'm sorry, I must have mised the source of this letter? I have have read official letters from the ATF contradicting almost every point in this letter. The fact that a piece of equipment is used outside of its intended purpose without modification does not change it's classification, and this has long been the stance of the ATF. Firing a semiautomatic weapon at an exceptionally high rate of fire does not reclassify said semiautomatic weapon as a machinegun. I may be wrong, and this may be new and if that's the case then this sucks.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:52:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
That's what happens when people keep poking the bear...it bites back. Or depriving the bear of its tax dollars 
I have no idea if the letter is legit, but it is interesting. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:55:00 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's what happens when people keep poking the bear...it bites back. Or depriving the bear of its tax dollars
I have no idea if the letter is legit, but it is interesting. I don't care, either way. . SBRs are better and I will have even 14.5s as so. But I will still have at least one pistol with no brace and a CPL... |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:55:50 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:57:38 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's what happens when people keep poking the bear...it bites back. Or depriving the bear of its tax dollars
I have no idea if the letter is legit, but it is interesting. I don't care, either way. . SBRs are better and I will have even 14.5s as so. But I will still have at least one pistol with no brace and a CPL... I agree, and I love my SBRs. I have pistol tubes, I just did not enjoy them. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:57:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I'm sorry, I must have mised the source of this letter? I have have read official letters from the ATF contradicting almost every point in this letter. The fact that a piece of equipment is used outside of its intended purpose without modification does not change it's classification, and this has long been the stance of the ATF. Firing a semiautomatic weapon at an exceptionally high rate of fire does not reclassify said semiautomatic weapon as a machinegun. I may be wrong, and this may be new and if that's the case then this sucks. There are two other letters in the last month dealing with a similar situation where the BATFE says that shouldering a Sig Brace on a AOW shotgun is illegal, and the other saying shouldering some new blade brace on an AR15 is illegal |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 2:58:48 AM EDT
[#9]
"Designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "firing from the shoulder" are two completely different things.
The SIG Brace, even as noted in this letter, is not "designed" to be fired from the shoulder. Again, I note, most modern handgun technique uses a two-handed grip, but the weapon is "designed to be fired with one hand". Firing a handgun with two hands does not make it an SBR any more than shouldering a pistol with a SIG Brace. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:05:14 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
That's what happens when people keep poking the bear...it bites back. Keep poking. Maybe we'll get to shoot it. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:06:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Who honestly didn't see that coming? I've anticipated that such a ruling would be coming down the pipe ever since the craze started for guys wanting to add these braces to "pistols". If you want an SBR, just get the stamp and have the real thing. Gotta pay to play unfortunately. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:06:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
"Designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "firing from the shoulder" are two completely different things. The SIG Brace, even as noted in this letter, is not "designed" to be fired from the shoulder. Again, I note, most modern handgun technique uses a two-handed grip, but the weapon is "designed to be fired with one hand". Firing a handgun with two hands does not make it an SBR any more than shouldering a pistol with a SIG Brace. According to that letter (the second sentence of the fifth paragraph of the answer), the very act of shouldering a pistol with a Sig brace in and of itself redesigns the pistol into a rifle. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:11:07 AM EDT
[#13]
How did we get to the point where regulatory/enforcement agencies basically create and define law? If the local police were allowed to make up traffic statutes at will people would be in the streets rioting.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:14:12 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "firing from the shoulder" are two completely different things. The SIG Brace, even as noted in this letter, is not "designed" to be fired from the shoulder. Again, I note, most modern handgun technique uses a two-handed grip, but the weapon is "designed to be fired with one hand". Firing a handgun with two hands does not make it an SBR any more than shouldering a pistol with a SIG Brace. According to that letter (the second sentence of the fifth paragraph of the answer), the very act of shouldering a pistol with a Sig brace in and of itself redesigns the pistol into a rifle. So then, my Glock is an SBR when I fire it with a two-handed grip, right? And Shouldering a receiver extension without the SIG Brace also makes it an SBR, Right? (Even though previous ATF letters have approved shouldering with and without the SIG Brace). Classification is based on characteristics, not method of use. If someone found themselves in court any semi-competent lawyer would tear this up. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:15:45 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
How did we get to the point where regulatory/enforcement agencies basically create and define law? If the local police were allowed to make up traffic statutes at will people would be in the streets rioting. They don't create law / regulations. What they do is offer interpretations of if and how existing laws apply to specifically-posed questions. Technically, these are only opinions. But since they're opinions coming from the government agency tasked with enforcing firearms laws, they tend to carry weight tantamount to law. I suppose that the alternative is that they don't offer any opinions and you get to wonder if your novel product is going to make you a test case in the courts. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:16:36 AM EDT
[#16]
Well... I'm going to standby and wait on the source of this letter. I have a letter directly from the ATF that states they dont care how i use the Brace.... and during this wait..... I am going to Form 1 a couple of lowers
. After i get the stamps in about a month.. then I am going to post pics of my new SBRs in all the SBR threads... with the pistol braces still on them.... just to be a dick.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:16:47 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
How did we get to the point where regulatory/enforcement agencies basically create and define law? If the local police were allowed to make up traffic statutes at will people would be in the streets rioting. This. Tag for later use. This will get big. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:16:49 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "firing from the shoulder" are two completely different things. The SIG Brace, even as noted in this letter, is not "designed" to be fired from the shoulder. Again, I note, most modern handgun technique uses a two-handed grip, but the weapon is "designed to be fired with one hand". Firing a handgun with two hands does not make it an SBR any more than shouldering a pistol with a SIG Brace. According to that letter (the second sentence of the fifth paragraph of the answer), the very act of shouldering a pistol with a Sig brace in and of itself redesigns the pistol into a rifle. So then, my Glock is an SBR when I fire it with a two-handed grip, right? Is your Glock designed to be fired from the shoulder? Gun Control Act Definitions Rifle 18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(7) and 27 CFR § 478.11 The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:22:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "firing from the shoulder" are two completely different things. The SIG Brace, even as noted in this letter, is not "designed" to be fired from the shoulder. Again, I note, most modern handgun technique uses a two-handed grip, but the weapon is "designed to be fired with one hand". Firing a handgun with two hands does not make it an SBR any more than shouldering a pistol with a SIG Brace. According to that letter (the second sentence of the fifth paragraph of the answer), the very act of shouldering a pistol with a Sig brace in and of itself redesigns the pistol into a rifle. So then, my Glock is an SBR when I fire it with a two-handed grip, right? Is your Glock designed to be fired from the shoulder? Neither are the SB15 or the SBX... but it sure seems to magically change them into rifles now according to the unsubstantiated letter |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:28:11 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Neither are the SB15 or the SBX... but it sure seems to magically change them into rifles now according to the unsubstantiated letter Correct. Assuming that the letter is legit, this represents a change in the BATFE's opinion after seeing about a bajillion people using the brace as a shoulder stock. Or it could be the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing and nothing has really changed. Who knows at this point. Quick! Somebody send the BATFE a letter asking for yet another opinion! 
Actually, since we're just seeing the answer, I'd really like to know what the specific question was. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:29:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
"Designed to be fired from the shoulder" and "firing from the shoulder" are two completely different things. The SIG Brace, even as noted in this letter, is not "designed" to be fired from the shoulder. Again, I note, most modern handgun technique uses a two-handed grip, but the weapon is "designed to be fired with one hand". Firing a handgun with two hands does not make it an SBR any more than shouldering a pistol with a SIG Brace. According to that letter (the second sentence of the fifth paragraph of the answer), the very act of shouldering a pistol with a Sig brace in and of itself redesigns the pistol into a rifle. So then, my Glock is an SBR when I fire it with a two-handed grip, right? Is your Glock designed to be fired from the shoulder? Gun Control Act Definitions Rifle 18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(7) and 27 CFR § 478.11 The term “Rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger. Thank you making my "designed" point for me. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:32:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Thank you making my "designed" point for me. I'm not so sure that what you think happened actually happened there, guy. 
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:34:21 AM EDT
[#23]
Hmmmmm. Consider this a tag.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:37:38 AM EDT
[#24]
is it April first already?
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:39:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Hmmm....No header... No signature... The source of this letter is where?
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:39:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Tagged for follow up
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:40:20 AM EDT
[#27]
I will believe it once I see an official letterhead and signature from the firearms technology branch.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:42:29 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thank you making my "designed" point for me. I'm not so sure that what you think happened actually happened there, guy. I'm pretty sure it did, pal. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:42:38 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Hmmm....No header... No signature... The source of this letter is where? That's what I was wondering. Perhaps there's a second page? |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:45:02 AM EDT
[#30]
Until we know who authored and endorsed the letter who cares?
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:45:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmm....No header... No signature... The source of this letter is where? That's what I was wondering. Perhaps there's a second page? Or...Perhaps it's a fake letter. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:47:16 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmm....No header... No signature... The source of this letter is where? That's what I was wondering. Perhaps there's a second page? Getting the full information now to post. Will update OP shortly. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:47:52 AM EDT
[#33]
If this is some premptive April Fools shit....
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:53:45 AM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:53:49 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Until we know who authored and endorsed the letter who cares? |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:54:07 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmm....No header... No signature... The source of this letter is where? That's what I was wondering. Perhaps there's a second page? Or...Perhaps it's a fake letter. Obviously.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 3:59:48 AM EDT
[#37]
It doesnt help you have morons claiming the sig brace is a legal sbr and posting pictures using sig brace as a stock.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:02:22 AM EDT
[#38]
OP edited to add all three pages that I just received from the individual that wrote the letter.
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:04:56 AM EDT
[#39]
Click click...click click click. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:07:15 AM EDT
[#40]
this "acting chief" is the same guy told Black Aces theirs was illegal to shoulder
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:09:00 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
OP edited to add all three pages that I just received from the individual that wrote the letter. This stems out from an inquiry? Why? Did they not believe all the other thousands of letters already out there? People wrote inquiry letters until they got what they wanted period. Time for another inquiry. 
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:11:57 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP edited to add all three pages that I just received from the individual that wrote the letter. This stems out from an inquiry? Why? Did they not believe all the other thousands of letters already out there? People wrote inquiry letters until they got what they wanted period. Time for another inquiry. No kidding. The question posed in the letter was redundant to say the least. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:12:38 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thank you making my "designed" point for me. I'm not so sure that what you think happened actually happened there, guy. I'm pretty sure it did, pal. I'm not your pal, friend. 
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:14:29 AM EDT
[#44]
Lets close this thread and pretend it never happened
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:17:14 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Lets close this thread and pretend it never happened Or send inquiry letters to the BATFE until Arfcom gets an opinion that it likes. 
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:19:24 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OP edited to add all three pages that I just received from the individual that wrote the letter. This stems out from an inquiry? Why? Did they not believe all the other thousands of letters already out there? People wrote inquiry letters until they got what they wanted period. Time for another inquiry. No kidding. The question posed in the letter was redundant to say the least. Well, it does appear that he was wondering if the mixture of the AFG plus the SB15 would cause any changes in classification. Legitimate question, at least in my eyes. Don't be pissed at the people trying to keep their ass out of hot water, be pissed at the idiots that make firearms laws convoluted and confusing as fuck. ETA: Especially when the ATF clarifies that approvals they give out in "opinion letters" are only valid for the person the letter is addressed to. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:28:47 AM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:48:44 AM EDT
[#48]
So that letter trumps this letter?
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:56:01 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
So that letter trumps this letter? http://cdn5.gunssavelives.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2cht9he-640x853.jpg Well, the one in the OP is newer, so in effect it may supersede it. I'm assuming it'd probably be stupid to write to the tech branch and ask for their opinion, or clarification, on the discrepancies between the two letters. |
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Posted: 12/26/2014 4:57:05 AM EDT
[#50]
Folks need to STOP WRITING LETTERS TO ATF ABOUT THIS.
But they won't, like the assholes that made/advertised 5.45 pistols and promptly got the cheap surplus banned from import... |
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