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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:28:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Welcome to the gun world where people spend thousands of dollars on the newest whiz bang accessories to outfit their newest military look alike rifle then spend more time taking pictures of it than shooting it. There was a time in Arfcom history when most would have agreed with you but that time is long passed.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:34:08 PM EDT
[#2]
I can dig this post.
So many people in the firearms and 2A community live everyday praying and hoping their Zombieland and Red Dawn fantasy might finally come true because they're just dying to use those 8million rounds of M856 they have downstairs ... 
Yet while so much attention is paid to supplies and gear, not enough is paid to the fundamentals, and humble practice. I see it too, I've been guilty of it before as well -- sloppy breathing, inconsistent sight picture, etc. How do you expect to take on the .gov war machine or Russian paratroopers if you can't group or shot without a rest!?!? Then again as long as you're being safe there's no harm in just doing it just to have fun <-- just don't go around thinking you're Rambo too!!! |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:42:02 PM EDT
[#3]
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How so? He's a Marine. The shit he saw on a civ range you will never see on a military range. Not even during rec fire (recreational shooting). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have only shot with civilians a few times. The guys today were bad, literally the worst I've ever seen, despite the benches, tripods, and ACOGs. They put targets out between 50-150 YDS or so, had shitty fundamentals, and couldn't hit shit for the most part.  And there it is. How so? He's a Marine. The shit he saw on a civ range you will never see on a military range. Not even during rec fire (recreational shooting). Correct, it would be worse on a military range. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:45:36 PM EDT
[#4]
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What you could do is mentor and help these other shooters, shoot better. Or at least give them some helpful tips and suggest they get some training. Some people just don't know, they follow what they see other people doing or what they watch on TV. I'm interested to know, what percentage of gun shooters spend more money (and equivalent time) on proper training versus the cost of their setup. Agreed. The range is where you WANT the mistakes to happen, and be corrected..... NOT in the grocery store or as you are walking to your blind / tree stand or in the house when you decide to clean the weapon with your kids having a slumber party in the other room. Personnally, I take it as an opportunity, no....an obligation, to assist other shooting enthusiasts so they can have a safe and fun experience. That does not mean to horn in on their range time to gain bragging rights or to impress them with Tier 1 Sulsa Do Corps tactics....but a simple "do you need some help?" goes a long way when their gun jams or when a new AR owner can't figure out how to reassemble after field stripping it or needs help with zeroing. If they say "no thanks"...fine, lett'em be, as long as they are not doing anything dangerous or illegal. Passing on your knowledge may just save a life or keep your range from being shut down. Hell, if you want to be Hero of the Day, take some extra earplugs with you to hand out. You'll make new friends and they'll probably let you shoot that .454 Casull they bought for home defense. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:45:55 PM EDT
[#5]
I used to think I was just an "ok" shot. I figured out I am just "ok" compared to my dad. When I go out and shoot with other people I am consistently one of the best shooters out there. I went trap shooting with my dad and some guys from his church and we threw doubles with two people, I'd hit mine with a .410 and shoot theirs when they missed with a 12 gauge. Shooting pistols with my friends and they are all over the place. I keep trying to get them to shoot 10 rounds at a NRA target and who loser buys pizza, but no one takes me up on it. I even offer them to use my Mark II target pistol.
The only place where I am humbled is shooting USPSA practice. I am as accurate as the best of them, but granny like slow in comparison. Though I still usually finish in between the 50-75% mark of who shows up. I don't think I'm special. I just like to shoot. I must shoot more than the average person. Or maybe I do have an innate talent. I did shot a LOT of paintball back in the day, but those guns use a lot of lobbing trajectories. Not the same thing. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 12:55:40 PM EDT
[#6]
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Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs Quote HistoryQuoted:
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TL;DR !3er goes to the range. The rest of us do not measure up to his awesomeness. Sorry, man. We will all try to be as awesome as you. Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs OOhhhhh and buy 2 Kias instead on a Camero. Then use the money you save and go to a racing school. Why be a dick? Just let people have fun shooting how they want to. You know, shooting is supposed to be fun, right? |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:00:03 PM EDT
[#7]
As we age we get wiser!!
As shooters, we MUST stick together. Say Hello, offer tips, be friendly, have fun with your other shooters. Everyone has to start somewhere, they emulate what they see at the range. At our local USPSA club, we welcome returning Troopers, we embrace them, and then start the process to get them up to speed on their shooting(the clock is always ticking). We don't stick together, we get divided, we loose our 2nd amendment rights!! Pro Tip: If someone does something different than you, it doesn't make it wrong, open eyes and embrace the bigger picture. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:01:06 PM EDT
[#8]
I'd love to prone out at my range but I am fat and suck at shooting and I figure I will look like I am trying to be all tier 1 :(
I do shoot for accuracy though. Practice. practice. practice. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:27:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Refusing to put a bench at my personal range on the farm has really kept people from bugging me to death to shoot there!
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:29:39 PM EDT
[#10]
AT my club range, there is a waist high wall at all ranges (25, 50, 100). This is supposed to prevent people from shooting past the firing line, but you can't shoot prone or sitting either.
There are also strips of carpet hanging between the "lanes", and in front of the shooter at nearly eye level. Supposedly to keep brass in control, but some of the lanes, it makes it nearly impossible to shoot standing, unless your target is near the ground at the backstop. The 25 has 2 benches, with a 6' table in between that has no forward carpet, so that's not too bad if you are shooting .22's and handguns. The 50 has 2 or 3 benches, I think (hardly use it), and the 100 has 4, all spaced closely together. These are big heavy benches, not meant to be moved. So I guess what I'm getting at is, those that only shoot at this club, are probably being conditioned to shoot from the bench, and think they can "handle it" when it comes to the field. There are rapid fire rules too, that keep people from practicing that. Closest public range is full of really dangerous derpery as most public ranges without RSO's are, on weekends. Add the classic fuddery, the fact that not everyone has .mil experience (or took their arms training seriously), nor something as simple as an appleseed to learn fundamentals, or even just take the time to learn things, even reading about it, all contributes to many peoples skills not being high. TLDR; there are all kinds of skill levels. Some of it conditioned, some of it lack of knowledge. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:38:05 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm always the top shot at the range unless someone that competes shows up
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:41:10 PM EDT
[#12]
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What he's trying to say is that "Behind every blade of grass, there is a lardass who can't shoot for shit" -Admiral Yamamoto Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So people enjoy shooting, but because they don't do it in your Tier 1 HSLD manner, they're idiots. MmmmK... What he's trying to say is that "Behind every blade of grass, there is a lardass who can't shoot for shit" -Admiral Yamamoto I will never visit a public range in the month before deer season ever again. Unsafe. Horrible weapons handling. Out of breath just setting targets. It fucks with my serenity to have to witness stupidity on my day off work. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:41:24 PM EDT
[#13]
As a RO for years now. The 1st two rules at the range are,
#1 be safe at all times. #2 Have fun. That is all.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:42:33 PM EDT
[#14]
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What he's trying to say is that "Behind every blade of grass, there is a lardass who can't shoot for shit" -Admiral Yamamoto Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So people enjoy shooting, but because they don't do it in your Tier 1 HSLD manner, they're idiots. MmmmK... What he's trying to say is that "Behind every blade of grass, there is a lardass who can't shoot for shit" -Admiral Yamamoto Ever been to a arfcom shoot.. there is a lot of truth to that! |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:44:50 PM EDT
[#15]
Im shocked at how many cops and mil cant shoot well and know nothing about their weapons
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:46:05 PM EDT
[#16]
All the people knocking benches I'm guessing don't go shooting with wives and small children much.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:56:29 PM EDT
[#17]
One way to avoid sharing outdoor ranges with other folks - Train in the rain. Visit in bad weather conditions. I very rarely go to public ranges but that's about to change as the access I've enjoyed to a private range will be curtailed due to circumstances.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 1:58:50 PM EDT
[#18]
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They were doing partial mag dumps from the bench. I didn't see any trial and error. I was OK with it , just thought the bench was kind of weak. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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TL;DR !3er goes to the range. The rest of us do not measure up to his awesomeness. Sorry, man. We will all try to be as awesome as you. Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs I may be missing something, since I got these "lessons" from my dad at about age 5, but what does a grown man pay $300/hr to learn about shooting that can't be gleaned from YouTube for free and then a little trial and error at th range? They were doing partial mag dumps from the bench. I didn't see any trial and error. I was OK with it , just thought the bench was kind of weak. That's ok, they made up for their inaccuracy with a higher volume of fire. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:02:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Considering your user name, was this the Blacksburg range?
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:05:16 PM EDT
[#20]
In other news, I've taken a few military guys shooting and have been astonished by their lack of knowledge about how to use an AR and how bad they shot. I've also taken a few that were pretty damn good shots.
Shitty shooters exist in all realms. So do good shooters. I Also know that being .mil doesn't make you an expert or a good shot. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:07:41 PM EDT
[#21]
This thread is really good for figuring out who the bench-warming dirt-shooters are.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:09:24 PM EDT
[#22]
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Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs Quote HistoryQuoted:
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TL;DR !3er goes to the range. The rest of us do not measure up to his awesomeness. Sorry, man. We will all try to be as awesome as you. Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs I'm with OP on this one. If you drop a thousand bucks to put an ACOG on a thousand dollar rifle and can't hit a damn thing from a bench with it - and do this in public, without any comprehension of how ridiculous this is, or any attempt to improve - then you're an idiot. Note that the important element here is that they can't even be bothered to know they're clueless, let alone do anything about it. Let's be honest here; many recreational shooters make no effort to improve and will never spend a dime on trying to. Obviously this isn't directed on those actually working on getting better, regardless of how much they suck at the time. Yes, you're free to take a couple thousand bucks worth of rifle and blast away at the berm with it. The rest of us are free to point and laugh. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:11:23 PM EDT
[#23]
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In other news, I've taken a few military guys shooting and have been astonished by their lack of knowledge about how to use an AR and how bad they shit. I've also taken a few that were pretty damn good shots. Shitty shooters exist in all realms. So do good shooters. I Also know that being .mil doesn't make you an expert or a good shot. Soooo...how bad is their shit? And do shitty shooters wipe afterwards? |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:15:42 PM EDT
[#24]
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-Thread title sarcasm Usually me and a friend shoot on his dad's property and it's all i've known for the past couple years. We couldn't shoot on his land so we went to a public range. I shot how I normally shoot; about 60/40 prone to standing, fair amount of rapid fire, as well as some precision the best I could with only irons. I was solid out to 150 yds but after that, I couldn't see shit. Almost everyone else pulled up benches, unfolded tripods, and mounted ACOGs on their high speed ARs with mounted flash lights and other goodies. I have only shot with civilians a few times. The guys today were bad, literally the worst I've ever seen, despite the benches, tripods, and ACOGs. They put targets out between 50-150 YDS or so, had shitty fundamentals, and couldn't hit shit for the most part. I was just kind of shocked.... at their poor technique, shooting, and nice gear. I'm sure they are not representative of the shooting community whats ever, and I'm also sure lots here could run circles around me (not a call out thread). I had never shot a gun prior to joining the corps; qualified sharpshooter at PI and expert the remaining times. If your new get some training. How popular are benches when shooting these days, when you are allowed to shoot in the prone or however you want for the most part? The few near me were not zeroing. CSB 
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:17:57 PM EDT
[#25]
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LOL! So you can look at bullets and a gun and TELL what type of accuracy it will get! you should have a talk show and show your amazing talent like John Edwards. You don't think the shooter is the other 1/3 of that equation? LOL Quote HistoryQuoted:
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hurry up OP and enter all shooting competitions so you can rule the shooting world! This thread went exactly as expected and ya know IDGAF. I did try to make it clear, that I do not think I'm a badass when it comes to shooting. Shooting comps aren't for me Of course it went this direction 
I tend to notice ammo at the range more than anything else - like when people are trying to shoot tiny groups with mil spec stuff. Don't care that they are shooting from the bench with a tripod, etc. but often wonder if they know what their rifle/ammo combo is capable/incapable of. LOL! So you can look at bullets and a gun and TELL what type of accuracy it will get! you should have a talk show and show your amazing talent like John Edwards. You don't think the shooter is the other 1/3 of that equation? LOL Haha, you can't? Ask me how I know you don't shoot much (or at all). But don't just take my word for it: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/520156_.html And a lot more: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/467880_.html Prior post edited to include links and for brevity |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:22:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Why is anyone watching someone else shoot at a range? I go, do what shooting I need to do and then I leave. I don't sit and watch people and check out their groups.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:26:49 PM EDT
[#27]
Read the OP and skipped all the "Cool Story" shit in between.
I'm a pretty decent shot. Started very young, been shooting long guns almost five decades now, and handguns over four. Still, when I go to the range, 87% of the people there will have better gear. And many could possibly outshoot me. They will be all serious and professional and shit. And will dress like mall ninjas and speak in anacronyms. And will have optics on rifles that have never seen the 100 yard line. And carry duffels full of cool shit that never leaves the bag. And you know what? Not a single fuck is given. At my age, I basically shoot to maintain my current skill level. Eyesight and fine motor skills don't last forever. And mine are going fast (mostly my own fault). So I do what I want, the way I want (within the rule limits of the range). And I try to have fun doing it. I'm going to work tomorrow, so barricading the perimeter isn't happening. Not really practicing for that. And I don't expect any zombies over for dinner tonight. Not training for those scenarios either. I shoot because it's my way of life. Always has been, and God willing, will remain so until the day I die. TL:DR = If I want to shoot from a bench, I'm gonna sit my old ass down.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:37:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Not everybody has access to open land to practice true drills.
The range I most often go to allows only double-tap on rifles and no rapid fire on pistols. They are the most forgiving locally with that rule. Finding a place to shoot freely locally is a bitch. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:39:25 PM EDT
[#29]
I watched a guy who was decked out with nice tactical gear, plate carrier, and nice looking M4gery and EOtech have a hard time keeping shots on a berm(the misses I saw were short, not over), standing supported from 100 yards at a 3 gun shoot. The stage was shoot 6 12" plates at 100 yards before advancing, I think he shot an entire magazine and didn't hit one.
I was lucky and had some good early mentors. My father, and a few members here. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:39:47 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Welcome to the gun world where people spend thousands of dollars on the newest whiz bang accessories to outfit their newest military look alike rifle then spend more time taking pictures of it than shooting it. There was a time in Arfcom history when most would have agreed with you but that time is long passed. QFT on all points. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:40:04 PM EDT
[#31]
I wasted at least the first 5-6000 rounds I ever fired.
I remember getting 1500 9mm gold-dots I got for a screaming deal and using them for range ammo 
I've grown a lot and learned a lot of lessons, some the hard way. I try not to judge many people but see how to educate. Setting a good example also helps. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:45:07 PM EDT
[#32]
They probably didn't have shit zeroed in and thought it came set up from factory. My guess after seeing those that attend public ranges. Hell, I've been at an indoor range where a bullet was behind us and aimed at the door. Intruder? Probably not.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:48:52 PM EDT
[#33]
I spend a lot of time on the bench until I know how it performs and I get comfortable with it. It does not mean I can't shoot.
I do agree with the OP in a certain sense. I see guys sight in their slug guns on the bench shooting a paper plate at 25 yards and barely keep the rounds on the plate. Those guys should not be hunting. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:51:43 PM EDT
[#34]
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They probably didn't have shit zeroed in and thought it came set up from factory. My guess after seeing those that attend public ranges. Hell, I've been at an indoor range where a bullet was behind us and aimed at the door. Intruder? Probably not. The laws of physics do seem to disappear at ranges. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:53:57 PM EDT
[#35]
FPNI.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:55:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Reason I started thread was to ask about these benches and to point out all these fucks with 3000 plus rifles that don't know how to shoot worth shit. Is it common to use a bench when not zeroing ? I've never seen people use benches unless zeroing or precision shooting. No one asked for an explanation , I've just never seen anything like that before. I will not be starting a shooting school, I have taught several friends the basics. Your arrogance is exceeded only by your simpering pomposity. Are you jelly....or are you merely compelled to throw fellow gun enthusiasts under the bus because they don't adhere to your self-conceptualized and vastly superior skillsets? |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 2:59:12 PM EDT
[#37]
I wouldn't consider myself a marksman and don't shoot enough to get to that level, but I've always been surprised by how bad a lot shooters are. The last time I went to the public range guys were amazed that I was consistently hitting 10" steel at 200 with my EOTech equipped carbine and open sighted K31. They were having trouble hitting 10" steel at 100 from the bench.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:02:10 PM EDT
[#38]
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My rifles are all sub $2000. So far, I've only shot 20 rounds off a barrier with one, 20 shots off a bench with another and my Wilson Combat is yet unfired. OP, what tier am I? You're one of those fucks, fo sho. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:13:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Shooting off a rest when not zeroing is extremely common.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:24:11 PM EDT
[#40]
Some people like guns for different reasons. I know people that like things that they're not necessarily good at.
I'm not a great fisherman, but I enjoy going out every single time. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:24:43 PM EDT
[#41]
My younger bro's a 20 yr. LEO and an expert marksman
AR training, pistols, the works and shoots a lot He should shoot competition but he says heck with all that noise, he just wants to have fun He came out to my modest shooting range the other day and there was none of this super, serious business for him He knows that it should stay fun and the boy simply gets excited when we pop out the guns Bought out the bumpfire stock on the AR and he literally started hopping up and down clapping his hands real fast (in his 50's) Then we shot up some tannerite 
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:28:22 PM EDT
[#42]
OP was OK with their dumping,, well I thank you for them poor mortals, did you tell them who you were? Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were doing partial mag dumps from the bench. I didn't see any trial and error. I was OK with it , just thought the bench was kind of weak. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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TL;DR !3er goes to the range. The rest of us do not measure up to his awesomeness. Sorry, man. We will all try to be as awesome as you. Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs I may be missing something, since I got these "lessons" from my dad at about age 5, but what does a grown man pay $300/hr to learn about shooting that can't be gleaned from YouTube for free and then a little trial and error at th range? They were doing partial mag dumps from the bench. I didn't see any trial and error. I was OK with it , just thought the bench was kind of weak. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:30:47 PM EDT
[#43]
OP was OK with their dumping,, well I thank you for them poor mortals, did you tell them who you were? Quote HistoryQuoted:
They were doing partial mag dumps from the bench. I didn't see any trial and error. I was OK with it , just thought the bench was kind of weak. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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TL;DR !3er goes to the range. The rest of us do not measure up to his awesomeness. Sorry, man. We will all try to be as awesome as you. Not what I was getting at, save the G you spend on an ACOG and get a couple two hour lessons and buy a pro with the left overs I may be missing something, since I got these "lessons" from my dad at about age 5, but what does a grown man pay $300/hr to learn about shooting that can't be gleaned from YouTube for free and then a little trial and error at th range? They were doing partial mag dumps from the bench. I didn't see any trial and error. I was OK with it , just thought the bench was kind of weak. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:31:16 PM EDT
[#44]
I am a range officer at a range open to the pubic and see quite a bit of different shooters.
About 10% of them have hardly ever shot a firearm in their lives. These are the ones we watch closely. About 40% them have familiarity with firearms but very few real skills. They come out once a year and shoot a little bit and that is it. They know which end of the gun to point down range but are not really into it. The Fudd hunters that come out once a year to zero their deer hunting rifles fall into this category. About 30% have moderate skills. They handle a firearm fairly well and tend to know what they are doing. A lot of ex military that were in the combat arms fall into this category. About 10% have advanced skills and they are good marksmen with good equipment. The final 10% are the excellent shooters that can hit targets at 1000 yrds and pretty well are the Tier I shooters. I suspect the OP would be in the 40% that has familiarity but very few real skills. Maybe he could just barely squeeze into the next higher group but probably not. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:34:56 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My younger bro's a 20 yr. LEO and an expert marksman AR training, pistols, the works and shoots a lot He should shoot competition but he says heck with all that noise, he just wants to have fun He came out to my modest shooting range the other day and there was none of this super, serious business for him He knows that it should stay fun and the boy simply gets excited when we pop out the guns Bought out the bumpfire stock on the AR and he literally started hopping up and down clapping his hands real fast (in his 50's) Then we shot up some tannerite 
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Posted: 12/21/2014 3:35:25 PM EDT
[#46]
maybe just me but im to busy minding my own buisness at the range to care how others shoot
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Posted: 12/21/2014 4:00:21 PM EDT
[#47]
The public range I use (when I can't shoot on private land) put up this giant wall ahead of the firing line to prevent standing up to shoot. Reason was too many rounds were going over the giant berm. Only 100 yard range, too.
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Posted: 12/21/2014 4:02:20 PM EDT
[#48]
Man, some of you guys are real assholes. The OP simply made an observation that a lot of guys at the public range can't shoot for shit, no different then some drivers can't drive, and you come in here and jump all over his ass. He must have hit a nerve so that the truth hurts and you can't handle it. I otherwise don't know why some of you got so defensive about it and personally attack him when he wasn't talking about you!
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Posted: 12/21/2014 4:02:28 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
maybe just me but im to busy minding my own buisness at the range to care how others shoot Might want to re-think your approach. In my experience, one cannot always rely on Range Officers to correct unsafe behavior, which, IMHO, is all that is of real concern. I've shot at some private ranges, and believe me, one has to keep an eye out for the "other guy" for unsafe practices, whether there is a Range Officer or not. It's bad enough for him to endanger himself, but it seldom stops there. I understand the value of minding your own business, but "your own business" changes when some guy can ruin your day by using unsafe practices. Again, as far as the OP's original post goes, he's said nothing that hasn't been said before, many times. Why he's being raked over the coals is silly. |
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Posted: 12/21/2014 4:02:44 PM EDT
[#50]
The OP FO'd.
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