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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:21:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Can you give us specs on the genny? What kind of outlets do you have? I assume the output is 120 volt?
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:27:43 PM EDT
[#2]
The one I bought at Harbor Freight works just fine with a standard generator.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:28:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Some devices do not like a modified sine wave. Having said that, some of these inverter generators do put out a much better attempt than the simple stair-step waveform.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:29:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Old school transformer types have no problem with inverters that produce a modified sine wave. It will make more noise than the normal soft hum but it is fine.
Schumacher makes good ones. Or get a true sine generator. The smallest Harbor Freight should do you fine unless you want to charge at more than 20 amperes. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:30:10 PM EDT
[#5]
That really surprising to hear. Most DC electronics are forgiving in respects of input power. I wish I had a better suggestion.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:35:37 PM EDT
[#6]
I don't have inverter generators but my Shumachers work just fine on either of my standard gennies.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:38:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That really surprising to hear. Most DC electronics are forgiving in respects of input power. I wish I had a better suggestion. So with a smooth sine wave of 120 V, a 200 volt rated rectifier works fine. But in modified sine wave, that damn near vertical rise of voltage with respect to time is seen as a 3000 volt or more spike, causing the rectifier to break down and admit reverse current. IOW, the rectifier don't rectify. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:38:31 PM EDT
[#8]
I'd look for a charger so simple that it doesn't have an abort mode. That being said, thanks for alerting me to the fact that I haven't tried running my battery charger from a generator. My Champion 3500 has a built-in 8 amp charger, so that's better than nothing...
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:39:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't have inverter generators but my Shumachers work just fine on either of my standard gennies. I have a 2300 watt inverter, bitch draws 80 amps at 24 volts off my former military vehicle. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 1:49:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Most generators gave the ability to charge a battery without using a charger. Mine has a red and black alligator clips on one end and then another connection that plugs into the gen. I know ever Yamaha and Honda I have seen have this too.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 2:14:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
I bought one from Napa the other day and last night discovered it goes int abort mode when plugged into my Yamaha inverter generator. The AC output from most inverter generators is a "true" sine wave - not anything like the "modified sine wave" produced by some 12VDC/120VAC power inverters. In fact, it's probably cleaner AC than what's coming out of your wall outlets. So, I suspect the problem isn't with your generator. A lot of RVers use the Black & Decker VEC1093DBD (and similar B&D models) with a generator - It tolerates some pretty funky AC waveforms, and maintains full DC charging current even when the AC input voltage is sagging (very common with small generators). Quoted:
Most generators gave the ability to charge a battery without using a charger. Mine has a red and black alligator clips on one end and then another connection that plugs into the gen. I know ever Yamaha and Honda I have seen have this too. The maximum charging current is pretty wimpy (6-8 amps or so), and isn't regulated - which means that the current drops off drastically as the battery becomes partially recharged. Result: REALLY long generator run-time to get a full battery recharge. If you want decent battery charging performance from a generator, you need to use a good AC-powered battery charger. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 2:24:27 PM EDT
[#12]
I have a Black and Decker from Wal mart and also a Schumacher that both work fine with my Yamaha genny.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 2:46:03 PM EDT
[#13]
I think it is a problem with the battery charger. Just tried a wall outlet.
The charger indicates the battery is charging. After awhile it blinks green indicating fully charged/maintaining. While charging plugged in the battery read 17 volts. Unplugged it reads 11.2 volts. Battery is a brand new interstate deep cycle. Think the charger is going back to napa. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 2:57:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Switching mode power supplies don't do well if the input bridge rectifiers cannot clamp the reverse current. In alternating current, the rate of change of voltage is related to frequency and high frequency is high voltage... So with a smooth sine wave of 120 V, a 200 volt rated rectifier works fine. But in modified sine wave, that damn near vertical rise of voltage with respect to time is seen as a 3000 volt or more spike, causing the rectifier to break down and admit reverse current. IOW, the rectifier don't rectify. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That really surprising to hear. Most DC electronics are forgiving in respects of input power. I wish I had a better suggestion. So with a smooth sine wave of 120 V, a 200 volt rated rectifier works fine. But in modified sine wave, that damn near vertical rise of voltage with respect to time is seen as a 3000 volt or more spike, causing the rectifier to break down and admit reverse current. IOW, the rectifier don't rectify. Frequency and voltage are independent of one another. Most aircraft power is 400hz, and still 120VAC. The sine wave will have a more rapid rise/fall, but peak to peak is the voltage. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 3:36:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think it is a problem with the battery charger. Just tried a wall outlet. The charger indicates the battery is charging. After awhile it blinks green indicating fully charged/maintaining. While charging plugged in the battery read 17 volts. Unplugged it reads 11.2 volts. Battery is a brand new interstate deep cycle. Think the charger is going back to napa. Definitely sounds like the charger, I've run a number of different battery chargers with my Honda EB3500 generator without problem. 17V is way too much for a 12V battery. It should be between 13V to 15V depending on how cold it is and the state of charge of your battery. To charge a large deep cycle battery off a generator I'd recommend an Iota or similar battery charger. Most of the chargers you'll find at auto parts stores are trickle chargers that will take forever to charge a deep cycle battery. You want a charger that's rated for at least 10% of your battery's C/20 capacity. So a 100 Ah battery should be matched with a 10 Amp charger or larger. If you just have the one battery, this 15 Amp Iota might work well for you. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 10:29:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
17V is way too much for a 12V battery. It should be between 13V to 15V depending on how cold it is and the state of charge of your battery. This, definitely. When the charger is working hard, it should gradually bring the battery voltage up to around 14.5 to 15 volts, and then maintain it there for a while as the battery continues to accept a charge. If the charger goes much above that voltage, the electrolyte will "boil", causing a lot of water loss and possible battery damage. After the battery becomes fully charged, many chargers revert to a much lower "float" voltage (around 13.3 to 13.5 volts). This maintains the battery at a full state of charge, without causing excessive water loss over long periods of time. |
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Posted: 11/28/2014 10:34:38 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Frequency and voltage are independent of one another. Most aircraft power is 400hz, and still 120VAC. The sine wave will have a more rapid rise/fall, but peak to peak is the voltage. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That really surprising to hear. Most DC electronics are forgiving in respects of input power. I wish I had a better suggestion. So with a smooth sine wave of 120 V, a 200 volt rated rectifier works fine. But in modified sine wave, that damn near vertical rise of voltage with respect to time is seen as a 3000 volt or more spike, causing the rectifier to break down and admit reverse current. IOW, the rectifier don't rectify. Frequency and voltage are independent of one another. Most aircraft power is 400hz, and still 120VAC. The sine wave will have a more rapid rise/fall, but peak to peak is the voltage. This is why GTAW high frequency start allows the arc to ionize the argon and start the arc even with peak to peak voltage under 50 or so. 400 Hz isn't high frequency.
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Posted: 11/28/2014 10:48:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This, definitely. When the charger is working hard, it should gradually bring the battery voltage up to around 14.5 to 15 volts, and then maintain it there for a while as the battery continues to accept a charge. If the charger goes much above that voltage, the electrolyte will "boil", causing a lot of water loss and possible battery damage. After the battery becomes fully charged, many chargers revert to a much lower "float" voltage (around 13.3 to 13.5 volts). This maintains the battery at a full state of charge, without causing excessive water loss over long periods of time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
17V is way too much for a 12V battery. It should be between 13V to 15V depending on how cold it is and the state of charge of your battery. This, definitely. When the charger is working hard, it should gradually bring the battery voltage up to around 14.5 to 15 volts, and then maintain it there for a while as the battery continues to accept a charge. If the charger goes much above that voltage, the electrolyte will "boil", causing a lot of water loss and possible battery damage. After the battery becomes fully charged, many chargers revert to a much lower "float" voltage (around 13.3 to 13.5 volts). This maintains the battery at a full state of charge, without causing excessive water loss over long periods of time. Yep. I'm a signalman on the railroad. We strive to make sure that the cells that make up our battery banks float at or very near the nominal rating (2.25 Volts/cell in our case for lead acid, 1.45/cell for NiCd flooded). Too much and you get electrolyte loss and damage. Too little and you get sulfation and reduced capacity. It varies with temperature too. Some of the auto rectifiers have temp probe sensors on them and are supposed to self compensate. We've found that those are not always real sufficient at doing what they're supposed to though. A good maintainer/signalman will manually adjust his trimpots with the seasonal changes to achieve optimum float. We can get 20+ years out of these sealed cells if we pay close attention to them. |
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Posted: 11/29/2014 8:16:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
400 Hz is still sine, modified sine wave inverters have high frequency components when the dV/dt is very high. That mimics high voltage in non sinusoidal waveforms. This is why GTAW high frequency start allows the arc to ionize the argon and start the arc even with peak to peak voltage under 50 or so. 400 Hz isn't high frequency. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That really surprising to hear. Most DC electronics are forgiving in respects of input power. I wish I had a better suggestion. So with a smooth sine wave of 120 V, a 200 volt rated rectifier works fine. But in modified sine wave, that damn near vertical rise of voltage with respect to time is seen as a 3000 volt or more spike, causing the rectifier to break down and admit reverse current. IOW, the rectifier don't rectify. Frequency and voltage are independent of one another. Most aircraft power is 400hz, and still 120VAC. The sine wave will have a more rapid rise/fall, but peak to peak is the voltage. This is why GTAW high frequency start allows the arc to ionize the argon and start the arc even with peak to peak voltage under 50 or so. 400 Hz isn't high frequency. I don't think a TIG welder power supply is relevant to this issue. For a square wave inverter to mimic 60hz there is a dwell time at zero current. This can mess with some electronics, I'm told. The TIG welder power supply does not dwell at zero current. It does not have to mimic 60hz, and zero current makes for erratic welding. |
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Posted: 11/29/2014 8:25:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Does the power supply on your trailer not power the furnace when plugged into your generator?
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Posted: 11/29/2014 11:56:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think a TIG welder power supply is relevant to this issue. For a square wave inverter to mimic 60hz there is a dwell time at zero current. This can mess with some electronics, I'm told. The TIG welder power supply does not dwell at zero current. It does not have to mimic 60hz, and zero current makes for erratic welding. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: That really surprising to hear. Most DC electronics are forgiving in respects of input power. I wish I had a better suggestion. So with a smooth sine wave of 120 V, a 200 volt rated rectifier works fine. But in modified sine wave, that damn near vertical rise of voltage with respect to time is seen as a 3000 volt or more spike, causing the rectifier to break down and admit reverse current. IOW, the rectifier don't rectify. Frequency and voltage are independent of one another. Most aircraft power is 400hz, and still 120VAC. The sine wave will have a more rapid rise/fall, but peak to peak is the voltage. This is why GTAW high frequency start allows the arc to ionize the argon and start the arc even with peak to peak voltage under 50 or so. 400 Hz isn't high frequency. I don't think a TIG welder power supply is relevant to this issue. For a square wave inverter to mimic 60hz there is a dwell time at zero current. This can mess with some electronics, I'm told. The TIG welder power supply does not dwell at zero current. It does not have to mimic 60hz, and zero current makes for erratic welding. On SQUARE WAVE alternating current, there are periods of VERY FUCKING HIGH changes of VOLTAGE with respect to TIME. This mimics HIGH VOLTAGE. Notice the waveforms of modified sine wave, you see overshoot often on the vertical trace? The oscilloscope cannot accurately trace it, it goes much higher thanks to tank circuitry dynamics. Just face it, high frequency mimics high voltage.
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Posted: 11/30/2014 2:20:34 PM EDT
[#22]
My issue was with the statement 'High frequency IS high voltage". I don't care how many times the cycle is repeated in a second, the voltage remains the same. Now if you want to change the statement to "high frequency MIMICS high voltage" I could agree that the ramp rate of the current gets steeper the higher the frequency. Now the hundred dollar question of the thread. What causes the battery charger to not work, the theoretical voltage spike that can only be seen on a magnified oscilloscope, or the obvious dwell time at zero current that causes a microprocessor to mis-count time. And a secondary question. Would your GTAW welder run off a big enough modified sign wave inverter, on a treadmill? |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 4:24:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Look at an actual o-scope trace of the output of a modified sine wave inverter.
Sure, my GTAW machine will even run off DC. It is also an inverter type welder with high frequency transformer. So a 200 amp output in a 50 pound case. |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 4:35:10 PM EDT
[#24]
I've got two chargers here that won't run off the generator in my service truck.
I haven't the faintest idea why. The frequency is 60 HZ and the wave is clean (enough), they just refuse to work on the generator.
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Posted: 11/30/2014 7:34:52 PM EDT
[#26]
"That shows 240Vpp or 84.84Vrms."
You are correct. Sorry, I just grabbed a quick illustration of the relationship between voltage and frequency. And high frequency does not equal high RMS voltage either. The scope readings I could find tonight show that the current spike is a momentary overshoot, but the voltage only has trouble returning to zero cleanly. I'm only a torpedo mechanic, so I'll ask the sparkies tomorrow. The new thing here is variable frequency power, so they can probably get me on the right page. |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 7:52:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Does the generator have a 12vdc charging outlet that accepts this type of plug?
 Note that this IS NOT an A.C. type plug with parallel plug ends. The plug ends are angled. If you have that type of outlet on your generator all you need is a cord like this one:  |
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Posted: 11/30/2014 11:02:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the generator have a 12vdc charging outlet that accepts this type of plug? http://www.arkansas-ope.com/HONDA_32650-884-005_2.jpg Note that this IS NOT an A.C. type plug with parallel plug ends. The plug ends are angled. If you have that type of outlet on your generator all you need is a cord like this one: http://www.arkansas-ope.com/CP_GEN_51291.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the generator have a 12vdc charging outlet that accepts this type of plug? http://www.arkansas-ope.com/HONDA_32650-884-005_2.jpg Note that this IS NOT an A.C. type plug with parallel plug ends. The plug ends are angled. If you have that type of outlet on your generator all you need is a cord like this one: http://www.arkansas-ope.com/CP_GEN_51291.jpg The maximum charging current is pretty wimpy (6-8 amps or so), and isn't regulated - which means that the current drops off drastically as the battery becomes partially recharged.
Result: REALLY long generator run-time to get a full battery recharge. If you want decent battery charging performance from a generator, you need to use a good AC-powered battery charger. |
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