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Posted: 10/30/2014 8:50:50 AM EDT
Because they already did:

The NRA took up this issue within months of 922(o)  becoming law. See: Farmer v. Higgins, 907 F.2d 1041 (11th Cir. 1990)  Stephen Halbrook argued it all the way to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, where it got shot down.  At this point, Halbrook went all in and appealed to the Supreme Court, who denied cert on the case (meaning the declined to hear the appeal and let the 11th Circuit ruling stand).

Not suprisingly, after taking it as high as they could go and getting shut down, the NRA has been a little gunshy about revisiting the issue.  However, given the frequency with which I see people complain that the NRA hasn't done anything about 922(o), I thought maybe people should become more aware as to the history on Second Amendment litigation and the NRA's attempts at it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:00:29 AM EDT
[#1]
Never give up.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:01:55 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:11:59 AM EDT
[#3]
Thank you for posting this.... I was about to post a furious rebuttal to your post, when I realized you were saying what I wanted to say...
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:21:36 AM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.
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lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:29:14 AM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:
Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.
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Yep. Soft vs hard targets.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:32:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Because it has nothing to do with hunting rights.

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:32:35 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Because they already did:

The NRA took up this issue within months of 922(o)  becoming law. See: Farmer v. Higgins, 907 F.2d 1041 (11th Cir. 1990)  Stephen Halbrook argued it all the way to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, where it got shot down.  At this point, Halbrook went all in and appealed to the Supreme Court, who denied cert on the case (meaning the declined to hear the appeal and let the 11th Circuit ruling stand).

Not suprisingly, after taking it as high as they could go and getting shut down, the NRA has been a little gunshy about revisiting the issue.  However, given the frequency with which I see people complain that the NRA hasn't done anything about 922(o), I thought maybe people should become more aware as to the history on Second Amendment litigation and the NRA's attempts at it.
View Quote



Gay rights groups and similar civil rights groups flood the court with case after case. 1 case don't mean shit. You have to have 20-50- 500 high profile cases going throught courts all the time non stop until it reaches critical mass.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:34:17 AM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.


lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:45:47 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:



Gay rights groups and similar civil rights groups flood the court with case after case. 1 case don't mean shit. You have to have 20-50- 500 high profile cases going throught courts all the time non stop until it reaches critical mass.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Because they already did:

The NRA took up this issue within months of 922(o)  becoming law. See: Farmer v. Higgins, 907 F.2d 1041 (11th Cir. 1990)  Stephen Halbrook argued it all the way to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, where it got shot down.  At this point, Halbrook went all in and appealed to the Supreme Court, who denied cert on the case (meaning the declined to hear the appeal and let the 11th Circuit ruling stand).

Not suprisingly, after taking it as high as they could go and getting shut down, the NRA has been a little gunshy about revisiting the issue.  However, given the frequency with which I see people complain that the NRA hasn't done anything about 922(o), I thought maybe people should become more aware as to the history on Second Amendment litigation and the NRA's attempts at it.



Gay rights groups and similar civil rights groups flood the court with case after case. 1 case don't mean shit. You have to have 20-50- 500 high profile cases going throught courts all the time non stop until it reaches critical mass.


Which is exactly what the NRA and SAF have been doing since Heller laid the groundwork.  They have been pursuing cases that are laying the groundwork for future challenges to other gun laws. The critique that made me start this thread was a complaint that the NRA had "done nothing" to challenge 922(o) - when in fact, the NRA immediately challenged it - and immediately lost that challenge.   People sometimes forget that in 11 of 13 Circuit Court of Appeals, the Second Amendment was regarded as a collective right until 2004.  If the Second Amendment is not an individual right in 11 out of 13 Circuit Court of Appeals, then trying to "flood" the court with case after case is stupid.  You have to carefully pick your cases to make sure they don't get tossed out of 11 courts immediately and that they don't close off your last 2 best chances at getting an individual right ruling to the Supreme Court.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:48:46 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.
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Amen and allowing many to keep what they've already got..


been in this "battle" for 40+ years and have seen MORE positive movement towards gun ownership, gun gamers, gun collectors in the last
few years than I'd EVER thought we'd see...God Bless the NRA and the Right thinking people that understand the 2A as intended by the founders.

don't believe me...team members start reading  Founders tread in TEAM
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:53:43 AM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:53:58 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:54:38 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 9:56:30 AM EDT
[#14]
The NRA does not care enough. If the NRA meaning Wayne Lapew thought there was money in a 922o fight we would have one.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:01:20 AM EDT
[#15]
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The NRA does not care enough. If the NRA meaning Wayne Lapew thought there was money in a 922o fight we would have one.
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Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:03:05 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.
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+1 Do the most good, for the most people. Take as much ground as you can, in a legal sense.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:03:47 AM EDT
[#17]

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Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.
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Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?  
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:14:55 AM EDT
[#18]

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No, considering the fact that they weren't exactly common when they were only a $200 tax stamp away.
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Quoted:


Quoted:

Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.




lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?


 
No, considering the fact that they weren't exactly common when they were only a $200 tax stamp away.










 
$200 was a lot more money back then






Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:17:37 AM EDT
[#19]
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  Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?  
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Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.

  Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?  

No.

You don't have public support for transferrable MGs.

You get public support for transferrable MGs by getting people to the shooting range, CCW, hunting, etc.

Once more people learn to enjoy guns safely, then you get to the high-level stuff like 922(o), import bans, etc.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:17:57 AM EDT
[#20]
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  $200 was a lot more money back then


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In the 80s? Not really.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:18:17 AM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.
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Pre-internet, I would agree.  Now that the whole world knows machineguns are legal in most states, I suspect it would be a lot more popular if new ones could be manufactured/possessed.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:26:25 AM EDT
[#22]
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In the 80s? Not really.
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  $200 was a lot more money back then



In the 80s? Not really.


Using the CPI Inflation Calculator, $200 in 1980 would have the same buying power as $577.75 today.   $434.36 in 1986 if you wanted to wait until the last minute.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:44:47 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


Using the CPI Inflation Calculator, $200 in 1980 would have the same buying power as $577.75 today.   $434.36 in 1986 if you wanted to wait until the last minute.
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Quoted:
  $200 was a lot more money back then



In the 80s? Not really.


Using the CPI Inflation Calculator, $200 in 1980 would have the same buying power as $577.75 today.   $434.36 in 1986 if you wanted to wait until the last minute.


Compare it to the cost of an 8 ball of blow. It ain't that much.

At any rate, this question has been addressed by Justice Scalia during Heller oral arguments. Pre-86 MG sales weren't sufficient to put them in common usage, even considering the tax.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 10:54:52 AM EDT
[#24]
No one cares about 922R.  This is the only place I've seen it mentioned in YEARS. Your average  gun owner has not the first clue about it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:10:51 AM EDT
[#25]

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Compare it to the cost of an 8 ball of blow. It ain't that much.



At any rate, this question has been addressed by Justice Scalia during Heller oral arguments. Pre-86 MG sales weren't sufficient to put them in common usage, even considering the tax.
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Quoted:


Quoted:


Quoted:

  $200 was a lot more money back then







In the 80s? Not really.




Using the CPI Inflation Calculator, $200 in 1980 would have the same buying power as $577.75 today.   $434.36 in 1986 if you wanted to wait until the last minute.




Compare it to the cost of an 8 ball of blow. It ain't that much.



At any rate, this question has been addressed by Justice Scalia during Heller oral arguments. Pre-86 MG sales weren't sufficient to put them in common usage, even considering the tax.




 
Thats so fucking stupid.  Stop making people jump through hoops and then see if they become common usage.  

I guarantee everyone that owns an AR15/AK47 would buy a full auto if they didn't have to jump through the NFA hoops.  




Again common usage isn't applicable when access is restricted.  
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:12:58 AM EDT
[#26]
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Again common usage isn't applicable when access is restricted.  
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Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:20:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:25:07 AM EDT
[#28]

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To a small segment of the shooting world it would. I think you would have lot of machine guns built or sold if they were made legal again but I think it would be short surge.



Most people are not going to go through the NFA process. Look at how the NFA only really boomed after Trusts started to be used. I think it would be something like that.



The black rifle world did not get popular till the AWB of 94.

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Quoted:


Quoted:

Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.


  Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?  







To a small segment of the shooting world it would. I think you would have lot of machine guns built or sold if they were made legal again but I think it would be short surge.



Most people are not going to go through the NFA process. Look at how the NFA only really boomed after Trusts started to be used. I think it would be something like that.



The black rifle world did not get popular till the AWB of 94.





 
which is kind of the point.  Remove all hurdles (hughes and nfa) and see it become common usage.  
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:30:03 AM EDT
[#29]
Consider In the 1980s you had:

NO Internet and most gun rags steered clear of full auto.  So how would 98% of the population know?

$200 tax stamp on top of a $600 gun. Incidentally this is partly why pre-86 there were practically NO SBRs.  

The Nfa branch of the good ol days in DC took ages an often "lost" paperwork.

90% of LEOs thought these were illegal. So aside from the hassle you attracted when you dump a mag. You also had a helluva time finding a CLEO sign off
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:32:11 AM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:33:48 AM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7214/7155114679_0188e5151d_z.jpg

Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.
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Quoted:
Again common usage isn't applicable when access is restricted.  

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7214/7155114679_0188e5151d_z.jpg

Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.


This.  Heller would have been bounced had Gura not explicitly stated that MG's were not an issue in the case.

Best bet for repeal would be a rider tacked onto Democratic "must pass" legislation.  Sell it as expanded gun registration/tax.  Attack Dems in their home districts for voting against it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:36:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Limited Funds.

If the NRA had more money they could fight more battles and bring about victories faster.  Encourage as many folks as you can to join the NRA.  My wife recently became a member and I'm doing the Easy Pay Life Membership right now.  

Make no mistake about it. The NRA is now firmly in our corner when it comes to defensive firearms and they are the best hope we have at effecting real change.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:40:52 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7214/7155114679_0188e5151d_z.jpg

Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.
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Quoted:
Again common usage isn't applicable when access is restricted.  

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7214/7155114679_0188e5151d_z.jpg

Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.


For now, but public perception can be easily changed given the proper propaganda campaign.  

The NRA is working very hard to make inroads with middle class suburban folks with a focus more and more on shooting as a "sport."  I believe this is brilliant and being conducted very well through NRA Freestyle.  The NRA more than any other conservative group seems to understand the power of social media and be willing to use it. Although, I feel that much more can be done.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:47:38 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:


For now, but public perception can be easily changed given the proper propaganda campaign.  

The NRA is working very hard to make inroads with middle class suburban folks with a focus more and more on shooting as a "sport."  I believe this is brilliant and being conducted very well through NRA Freestyle.  The NRA more than any other conservative group seems to understand the power of social media and be willing to use it. Although, I feel that much more can be done.
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Again common usage isn't applicable when access is restricted.  

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7214/7155114679_0188e5151d_z.jpg

Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.


For now, but public perception can be easily changed given the proper propaganda campaign.  

The NRA is working very hard to make inroads with middle class suburban folks with a focus more and more on shooting as a "sport."  I believe this is brilliant and being conducted very well through NRA Freestyle.  The NRA more than any other conservative group seems to understand the power of social media and be willing to use it. Although, I feel that much more can be done.


I'm inclined to agree, but the "proper propaganda campaign" does not start with repealing the MG ban.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:48:22 AM EDT
[#35]


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Quoted:
lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.




lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?


Before the 'rush' to create transferable machine guns between April 10 and May 19, 1986 there were less than 200K transferable machineguns on the Registry (all the published numbers are close swags because the Registry is inaccurate).



All it took to make a M-16 (in a MG state) prior to that was a drill press and $200 (and a wait that sometimes exceed 2 years, I think the record was 6).



The reality is that most gun owners (in MG friendly states) who want new MGs now want them because they can't have one (they can have all the transferables they can find and afford).  And before May 19, 1986 it wasn't something the vast majority of gun owners (in MG friendly states) wanted enough to do it.



Farmer v. Higgins.  Rock Island v. US.  We didn't sit on our hands.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 11:50:51 AM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:

For now, but public perception can be easily changed given the proper propaganda campaign.  

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Your propaganda campaign is more than 80 years late starting. And of course, the counter propaganda put out by Hollyweed and TV hasn't stopped, and never will.

I wish you all the luck in the world. You'll need it.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:01:48 PM EDT
[#37]


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Quoted:
Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.




Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?


Not to answer for Bama, but I don't think so.



I think there would be an uptick (in MG friendly states), but I think over time it would fade (but the Progressive Communist hysteria would be stratospheric).



Absent he current demand for transferables, a Form 1 machine gun is an ammo-gobbling range toy that requires a Form 4 transfer process to sell.  Why would I buy yours?  I can make my own, then I have an ammo-gobbling range toy that requires a Form 4 transfer process to sell.



And a 5320.20 to travel out of state with it (unless the NFA goes away too)



And unless you have private land or something like NF or BLM public land to shoot on...



The euphoria would die away and it would go back to being a niche in the shooting world.



IF 18 USC § 922(o) went away and IF my county sheriff would issue me the state required MG permit and IF I had a place I could shoot full auto, I might Form 1 an AR lower, but I'd rather have another suppressor.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:07:07 PM EDT
[#38]


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Thats so fucking stupid. Stop making people jump through hoops and then see if they become common usage.
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I guarantee everyone that owns an AR15/AK47 would buy a full auto if they didn't have to jump through the NFA hoops.






Again common usage isn't applicable when access is restricted.


Yes, because so many people bought Thompsons and Colt machine guns (1927 .30 cals and Monitors) and Maxim supressors prior to 1934 - when they could buy them through the mail and have the post man drop them off at their door.



Auto-Ordnance barely sold enough Thompsons to keep the doors open.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:07:10 PM EDT
[#39]
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No.

You don't have public support for transferrable MGs.

You get public support for transferrable MGs by getting people to the shooting range, CCW, hunting, etc.

Once more people learn to enjoy guns safely, then you get to the high-level stuff like 922(o), import bans, etc.
View Quote


Yes. CCW and the rise of the AR are a huge deal, and can change people's opinions.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:12:49 PM EDT
[#40]

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The young guys of today cannot even imagine what it was like in the 80's. Very few states had CCW laws, most that did had some jump through processes that basically only the politically connected could get them.



While it is not perfect and I would like to see the machine gun ban reversed the advancement of gun rights legislation and the prevention of new laws restricting firearms at the federal level is a direct result of the NRA's efforts.



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That.




We have made a huge amount of progress.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:18:14 PM EDT
[#41]
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[Alan Gura is adamant that no judge will overturn the MG ban. I agree.
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That is why the dissent in Heller in part was that RTKBA would lead to legal MGs.

Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:19:54 PM EDT
[#42]
Why doesn't the NRA ever bring up US v Miller?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:23:16 PM EDT
[#43]
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Why doesn't the NRA ever bring up US v Miller?
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What about it?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:24:36 PM EDT
[#44]
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Because it has nothing to do with hunting rights.

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and mail, don't forget the mail
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:28:08 PM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:


Using the CPI Inflation Calculator, $200 in 1980 would have the same buying power as $577.75 today.   $434.36 in 1986 if you wanted to wait until the last minute.
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Quoted:
  $200 was a lot more money back then



In the 80s? Not really.


Using the CPI Inflation Calculator, $200 in 1980 would have the same buying power as $577.75 today.   $434.36 in 1986 if you wanted to wait until the last minute.

 yeah but $200 in 1934 is theequivalent of IIRC $3700 in today's dollars...the LAST thing you want is Congress deciding to "Modernize" the tax stamp
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:28:16 PM EDT
[#46]

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Quoted:


Quoted:

Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.



Don't you think that would change IF the Hughes Amendment was overturned?


Not to answer for Bama, but I don't think so.



I think there would be an uptick (in MG friendly states), but I think over time it would fade (but the Progressive Communist hysteria would be stratospheric).



Absent he current demand for transferables, a Form 1 machine gun is an ammo-gobbling range toy that requires a Form 4 transfer process to sell.  Why would I buy yours?  I can make my own, then I have an ammo-gobbling range toy that requires a Form 4 transfer process to sell.



And a 5320.20 to travel out of state with it (unless the NFA goes away too)



And unless you have private land or something like NF or BLM public land to shoot on...



The euphoria would die away and it would go back to being a niche in the shooting world.



IF 18 USC § 922(o) went away and IF my county sheriff would issue me the state required MG permit and IF I had a place I could shoot full auto, I might Form 1 an AR lower, but I'd rather have another suppressor.


All of that,  AND I'd need that WA state law banning MGs to go away, as well.  

 
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:31:06 PM EDT
[#47]


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What about it?
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Quoted:

Why doesn't the NRA ever bring up US v Miller?




What about it?


The 2A is about ownership of military weapons, not FUDD guns.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:31:12 PM EDT
[#48]
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  No, considering the fact that they weren't exactly common when they were only a $200 tax stamp away.


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Because it's so such a small segment of the gun world. Getting more states to issue CCW permits, Shall Issue, shooting range and hunting preservation got way more done.


lol. That kind of sounds like the gun grabbers. Could it be that it's small cuz they are hard to get?

  No, considering the fact that they weren't exactly common when they were only a $200 tax stamp away.



All arguments of inflation and actual costs aside, the gun culture in the pre-Hughes days was very different than it is today.  Revolvers were still the sidearm of choice for the vast majority of people, bolt and lever action rifles dominated the market, with self loading firearms still considered by many to be finicky, heavy, and unnecessary.  Today, AR-15 platform rifles are far and away the highest selling firearms, revolvers are considered antiquated, with high capacity or super tiny automatics sitting in most holsters.  Do you really think there wouldn't be enough people willing to pony up the cash for full auto these days to qualify as common use if it were possible?
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:43:19 PM EDT
[#49]
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The 2A is about ownership of military weapons, not FUDD guns.
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Why doesn't the NRA ever bring up US v Miller?


What about it?

The 2A is about ownership of military weapons, not FUDD guns.


Yes, but Miller (it actually references an 1840s Tenn state case) states that it only protects weapons suitable for militia duty. Not weapons only suitable for self defense. If we follow the logic of Miller, we win a court case that gives us military weapons (but no doubt with limits) but gives up self defense only firearms, and surrenders on issues like CCW. The modern gun rights movement's success is rooted in self defense issues, not militia/military or hunting. Self defense.
Link Posted: 10/30/2014 12:49:03 PM EDT
[#50]
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All arguments of inflation and actual costs aside, the gun culture in the pre-Hughes days was very different than it is today.  Revolvers were still the sidearm of choice for the vast majority of people, bolt and lever action rifles dominated the market, with self loading firearms still considered by many to be finicky, heavy, and unnecessary.  Today, AR-15 platform rifles are far and away the highest selling firearms, revolvers are considered antiquated, with high capacity or super tiny automatics sitting in most holsters.  Do you really think there wouldn't be enough people willing to pony up the cash for full auto these days to qualify as common use if it were possible?
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MGs would be more poplular then in '84 for sure. But it's a moot point, the criteria is "in common usage".

It isn't "what would be in common usage without Hughes and NFA". From a pure point of logic it should be, but from a practical political perspective it isn't.
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