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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:40:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have a few shotguns from a 870, Remington 1100, Beretta 391, and a Browning Citori 625 Sporting. There really is not much of a difference in scores between the autos and the O/U. All you need is a fitting and some practice. I end up getting the O/U because I was tired of picking up the hulls for reloading. Most of it is in people's heads. Also modern machining has reduced the time needed to make a quality O/U. Quality as being able to reliably shoot, and shoot straight. Fancy wood and engraving does nothing for one's score. There's the internet bits 'o truth for you guys. Yet the cheap guns still can't stop falling apart no matter how much CNC and modern metals are involved in them..... I REALLY want the new 2014+ ruger red labels to last like a 686 or Citori And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. I think the O/U market tends to support itself based on an informal hierarchy. That is evidenced in this thread. If people are willing to pay $3200 for a full sporting clays Citori, why would the market demand change? Browning and beretta operate as a duopoly with the majority of the mass market, and they both recognize without collusion that high prices must be supported, and are mutually beneficial. If market pressures dictated it, the quality could get there for a lot less money. But buyers still demand quality wood and silly aching engraving. Browning has done numerous "unconventional" cynergies, and they get overlooked at any price. The Turkish guns are getting better and better as the low end gets more competitive, so there is some possibilities there. Ultimately, I think if more younger people got into the sport, prices would be forced down. Not because we don't have the money. We do indeed have the money, and far less obligations than older buyers. But we tend to be better informed and have much more mobile decisions that would cause competition from a pricing perspective. We would also demand much more modular platforms. So the premium in extra barrels or barrel sets would be driven down as well. It would be interesting to see what an O/U would look like for someone brought up in a world of AR-15's almost exclusively. I imagine that a common receiver and fire control group would be the heart of such a system. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:41:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So Browning 725 or Beretta 686? Whichever one fits you better |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:41:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Don't forget that a brand new Remington 870 Wingmaster costs over $700 these days. Today's shooters are so used to black plastic stocks and parkerized finishes they forget what deep rich bluing and nice wood costs. That's just externals. There is no comparison between the stamped metal mousetrap inside a pump or semi-auto gun and the lockwork inside a double gun. No comparison.
Also, stocks on over/unders are hand fitted to the action on a double shotgun. You don't just pull a stock off the rack, tighten a couple of screws and move onto the next gun. I had a butt stock replaced on one of my SKB's a while ago and the job cost more than $500. Hey, that reminds me . . . somebody asked for photos . . . I have some of that gun, with its replacement wood . . . BTW, this is a 20 gauge SKB 700. It's probably 30-40 years old. It's a fixed choke gun (no screw-in tubes). Made in Japan. I paid about $700 for this gun on Gunbroker but it had a drying crack in the stock. The stock was solid and still usable. It probably would have never required attention for structural reasons but I decided to have the wood replaced for cosmetic purposes. SKB in Omaha, Nebraska had a NOS buttstock that was a suitable mate to the forearm and they fitted to the gun and finished it to match. Nice little gun, though it's a bit gaudy. Honestly, it doesn't see much use. I take it to the skeet range occasionally and I use it sometimes at the local sporting clays course. It's currently choked skeet/light modified, btw. It has 28" barrels. 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:59:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So Browning 725 or Beretta 686? Depends. Are you a big guy or a shorter guy? Brownings tend to fit bigger guys, are a little slower tracking, but are not as whippy. Beretta 686 fits shorter guys, are faster tracking, but a little whippy. Both are solid guns and it comes down to shooters preference. Personally I like the 686. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 7:00:09 PM EDT
[#5]
My Belgium Browning is expensive compared to my other guns, and I can see why when I shoot it. A member here let me shoot his much more expensive Beretta, and it made mine look like it was drawn with crayons.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 7:18:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends. Are you a big guy or a shorter guy? Brownings tend to fit bigger guys, are a little slower tracking, but are not as whippy. Beretta 686 fits shorter guys, are faster tracking, but a little whippy. Both are solid guns and it comes down to shooters preference. Personally I like the 686. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So Browning 725 or Beretta 686? Depends. Are you a big guy or a shorter guy? Brownings tend to fit bigger guys, are a little slower tracking, but are not as whippy. Beretta 686 fits shorter guys, are faster tracking, but a little whippy. Both are solid guns and it comes down to shooters preference. Personally I like the 686. I prefer Citoris, being 6'2". 
My favorite is my Fox, though. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 7:32:36 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 10/26/2014 7:36:43 PM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:34:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryWho makes that? This is the first pic of my photobucket album from the 2012 Grand (held at the World Shooting Complex in Sparta, IL). The rest of the album should be set to public if you want to view the other 70 plus pics: 
EDIT: that is from the Perazzi "booth" and yes, you're reading the price tag correctly, that is $83,000 plus. |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 8:44:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Who makes that? Krieghoff K80 by Master Engraver Jana Schilling |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:31:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
David McKay Brown laughs at you. 
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/droppedImage.jpg http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/droppedImage_3.jpg Just added several more guns to the lottery list. 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:33:15 PM EDT
[#12]
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There is an upside. Ignorance is a curable disease. It does, however, take effort. Popping a pill won't do it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes  There is an upside. Ignorance is a curable disease. It does, however, take effort. Popping a pill won't do it. I'll let you cure it for me. Just buy me a ruger red label or something 
One of my friends has a RRL... meh |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:33:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whichever one fits you better Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So Browning 725 or Beretta 686? Whichever one fits you better This man speaks the truth. Nothing wrong with the Beretta, but I LOVE my Brownings! |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:37:18 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, as I go down this path myself, I'm looking at the new beretta A400 xcel. These usually sell for about $1600, but have seen them sell new for as low as $1300 http://teambacon.smugmug.com/Other/stills/i-FdLbmgr/0/L/a400-L.jpg Lol, that's my old gun and picture, sold it for a Beretta o/u |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:37:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't forget that a brand new Remington 870 Wingmaster costs over $700 these days. Today's shooters are so used to black plastic stocks and parkerized finishes they forget what deep rich bluing and nice wood costs. That's just externals. There is no comparison between the stamped metal mousetrap inside a pump or semi-auto gun and the lockwork inside a double gun. No comparison. Also, stocks on over/unders are hand fitted to the action on a double shotgun. You don't just pull a stock off the rack, tighten a couple of screws and move onto the next gun. I had a butt stock replaced on one of my SKB's a while ago and the job cost more than $500. Hey, that reminds me . . . somebody asked for photos . . . I have some of that gun, with its replacement wood . . . BTW, this is a 20 gauge SKB 700. It's probably 30-40 years old. It's a fixed choke gun (no screw-in tubes). Made in Japan. I paid about $700 for this gun on Gunbroker but it had a drying crack in the stock. The stock was solid and still usable. It probably would have never required attention for structural reasons but I decided to have the wood replaced for cosmetic purposes. SKB in Omaha, Nebraska had a NOS buttstock that was a suitable mate to the forearm and they fitted to the gun and finished it to match. Nice little gun, though it's a bit gaudy. Honestly, it doesn't see much use. I take it to the skeet range occasionally and I use it sometimes at the local sporting clays course. It's currently choked skeet/light modified, btw. It has 28" barrels. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock1_zps17a93e4a.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock3_zps7cbe082e.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock2_zps96ca2685.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock5_zpsd876d3d0.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock4_zpsf397738a.jpg Sooo... fancy engraving? 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:48:19 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sooo... fancy engraving? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Don't forget that a brand new Remington 870 Wingmaster costs over $700 these days. Today's shooters are so used to black plastic stocks and parkerized finishes they forget what deep rich bluing and nice wood costs. That's just externals. There is no comparison between the stamped metal mousetrap inside a pump or semi-auto gun and the lockwork inside a double gun. No comparison. Also, stocks on over/unders are hand fitted to the action on a double shotgun. You don't just pull a stock off the rack, tighten a couple of screws and move onto the next gun. I had a butt stock replaced on one of my SKB's a while ago and the job cost more than $500. Hey, that reminds me . . . somebody asked for photos . . . I have some of that gun, with its replacement wood . . . BTW, this is a 20 gauge SKB 700. It's probably 30-40 years old. It's a fixed choke gun (no screw-in tubes). Made in Japan. I paid about $700 for this gun on Gunbroker but it had a drying crack in the stock. The stock was solid and still usable. It probably would have never required attention for structural reasons but I decided to have the wood replaced for cosmetic purposes. SKB in Omaha, Nebraska had a NOS buttstock that was a suitable mate to the forearm and they fitted to the gun and finished it to match. Nice little gun, though it's a bit gaudy. Honestly, it doesn't see much use. I take it to the skeet range occasionally and I use it sometimes at the local sporting clays course. It's currently choked skeet/light modified, btw. It has 28" barrels. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock1_zps17a93e4a.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock3_zps7cbe082e.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock2_zps96ca2685.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock5_zpsd876d3d0.jpg http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/stock4_zpsf397738a.jpg Sooo... fancy engraving? Well, yeah, but I bought it because it had 28" barrels rather than the 26" barrels I had on my plainer gun. Honestly, I find it sort of pimpy looking, but it swings nice. But . . . what's wrong with fancy engraving? I bet a lot of guys on this forum drive trucks with fancy wheels, running boards and other accessories. Why is it OK to have a tricked out ride, but not a fancy shotgun? Or, does everyone here drive Mennonite trucks with flat black rims? |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:50:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Why are they so much? Seems like you pay over $1000 just to get something considered decent, when that kind of money can get you a good AR. It seems like more work would go into an AR, but obviously I am missing something. What is the deal? you really need to hunt upland to fully appreciate a browning citori actually have 2 or 3 grouse or partridge flush 20 or 30 feet away shoulder the gun safety naturally comes off in the shouldering drop one or 2 and subcontiousley open the action have the empty hulls fly over your shoulder drop 2 new shells in and snap it close all you need to think about is where the bird fell for retrieval. it is very natural with a great fitting gun. 1. balance, pointability and the ability to pick up the gun and in 2 or 3 outings have it act as a part of your body 2. crisp tight reliable lock work 3. both barrels must have a reasonable close POA POI think double barrels in the 175 grand range. 4. ejectors |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:51:14 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whichever one fits you better Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So Browning 725 or Beretta 686? Whichever one fits you better Good answer!!
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:53:46 PM EDT
[#19]
I think they're beautiful, but also would buy a custom 1911 if I had the money
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:17:06 PM EDT
[#20]
I went the other way. My guns are plastic, my shotguns are fine.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think they're beautiful, but also would buy a custom 1911 if I had the money |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:18:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think they're beautiful, but also would buy a custom 1911 if I had the money Get both! |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:22:27 PM EDT
[#22]
That was a great Sunday morning. Browning makes a great O/U Adjustable stock is aftermarket on mine. Butt plate and comb Fit is critical wirh shotgun |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:23:02 PM EDT
[#23]
I can even see spending 3 or so K on a nice upland gun. What I don't understand are the $50k to $200K O/U's. that is house or Lambo money.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:28:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can even see spending 3 or so K on a nice upland gun. What I don't understand are the $50k to $200K O/U's. that is house or Lambo money. Some people on this forum have spent more on their pickup trucks than others have on their homes.... |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:34:43 PM EDT
[#25]
I started at 16 with a Churchill Windsor VI, did not really know a lot and sold it, got a Diamond Grade Charles Daly a few years after that. I have gotten an itch for an old Ithaca 4e-5e for some reason and bought a Beretta Single trap to try to slow the itch. I have always wanted one with 32" barrels, to shoot trap with. I missed a Charles Daly Empire Grade 20ga a couple of years ago and still regret not buying it.
Low end entry 500-700 low end 700-1K but can find some nice older quality guns for the 800-1000 range. I just will not spend more than $2500 on a gun that is not being used more than 10 times a year. Most can get a gun that will outlast them for under 2K unless you are shooting 10K+ rounds a year. Must resist.  |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:36:38 PM EDT
[#26]
Meh
shotguns.
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:39:06 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh shotguns. Meh Ar15's |
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:21:01 PM EDT
[#28]
But... over/unders can be tacticool too...
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:42:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Cynergy is an interesting gun. They did borrow the hinge mechanism from Flodman, who may have gotten it from Petrik. Flodman is for those who want modern materials. Titanium actions and Damasteel barrels are options. On my short list for a double rifle if I ever win the lottery. http://www.flodman.com/images_en.htm 
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:53:57 PM EDT
[#30]
I've shot a lot of sporting clays and they are nice in that game, if only for the ability to have two different chokes if you are going to be shooting 2 birds at varying distances. Also, you have fewer malfunctions with an O/E and can shoot lighter loads more reliably. They also don't throw your hulls all over hell's half acre. That said, some of the best in the game today shoot semi autos.
Most guys, though, have an O/U, bc that's what your "supposed" to shoot clays with. Kinda like your average duffer going out and buying the same clubs as Phil Mckilson. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:11:48 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryBeautiful!!! I have a 725 now, my next gun is probably gonna be a K80 |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:15:48 AM EDT
[#32]
I have a Browning Special Sporting Clays. Next on my list is a Beretta 686. I don't look at it as, I spent money on a shotgun. I see it more like I transferred some of my cash to a different tangible asset.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:17:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the O/U market tends to support itself based on an informal hierarchy. That is evidenced in this thread. If people are willing to pay $3200 for a full sporting clays Citori, why would the market demand change? Browning and beretta operate as a duopoly with the majority of the mass market, and they both recognize without collusion that high prices must be supported, and are mutually beneficial. If market pressures dictated it, the quality could get there for a lot less money. But buyers still demand quality wood and silly aching engraving. Browning has done numerous "unconventional" cynergies, and they get overlooked at any price. The Turkish guns are getting better and better as the low end gets more competitive, so there is some possibilities there. Ultimately, I think if more younger people got into the sport, prices would be forced down. Not because we don't have the money. We do indeed have the money, and far less obligations than older buyers. But we tend to be better informed and have much more mobile decisions that would cause competition from a pricing perspective. We would also demand much more modular platforms. So the premium in extra barrels or barrel sets would be driven down as well. It would be interesting to see what an O/U would look like for someone brought up in a world of AR-15's almost exclusively. I imagine that a common receiver and fire control group would be the heart of such a system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. I think the O/U market tends to support itself based on an informal hierarchy. That is evidenced in this thread. If people are willing to pay $3200 for a full sporting clays Citori, why would the market demand change? Browning and beretta operate as a duopoly with the majority of the mass market, and they both recognize without collusion that high prices must be supported, and are mutually beneficial. If market pressures dictated it, the quality could get there for a lot less money. But buyers still demand quality wood and silly aching engraving. Browning has done numerous "unconventional" cynergies, and they get overlooked at any price. The Turkish guns are getting better and better as the low end gets more competitive, so there is some possibilities there. Ultimately, I think if more younger people got into the sport, prices would be forced down. Not because we don't have the money. We do indeed have the money, and far less obligations than older buyers. But we tend to be better informed and have much more mobile decisions that would cause competition from a pricing perspective. We would also demand much more modular platforms. So the premium in extra barrels or barrel sets would be driven down as well. It would be interesting to see what an O/U would look like for someone brought up in a world of AR-15's almost exclusively. I imagine that a common receiver and fire control group would be the heart of such a system. My perspective, at least with shotguns, is as a beginner. I shot a couple rounds of trap as a teenager, but that was 10 years ago. After looking around the market for a little while, I just bought a cheap used Fausti from the Traditions line to get my feet wet. I'm guessing it's not a gun that I'll get tens of thousands of rounds through, but if I get to shooting like that, I'll probably upgrade anyways. But I've got to say, I'm a bit dissatisfied with the market, I'm probably not going to buy a new trap gun, and pricing is a big part of that. I'm not afraid to pay for quality, but there's a limit to what I'm willing to spend on any one gun. My S&W 17-2, for example, was significantly more expensive than a brand new Ruger SP-101, but the fit and finish and overall build quality makes it worth it to me. I could probably make similar comparisons with other guns, but I think you get the point. But any time I buy anything like that, I consider what I'm getting for the money. My S&W revolvers were worth it. My CZ bolt action rifles were worth it. But when I look at the $1500+ OUs, I almost immediately start wondering how much of that price tag is in that damn engraving. Engraving does nothing for me, and I don't give a damn about buying some kind of street cred with the old timey gentlemen's bunch. I want function and serviceability, and that's about it. As you suggest, I don't know that I'd expect Browning or Beretta to take that next step forward and ruin their cash cow. Maybe one of the two might to tap into a broader audience, but that would surprise me.I'm pretty sure another manufacturer would need to do that. Who? I don't know. I could maybe see Ruger doing it, but they've got to figure out where they're going with the Red Label. I've only seen one batch of the new ones go out, and there seems to be some shuffling. Remington could do it if they weren't being killed by a toxic corporate culture driven by accountants. FN/Winchester could do it, but they seem to be in an identity crisis. I'd like to think that something's got to give at some point. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:18:53 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh Ar15's Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Meh shotguns. Meh Ar15's Hmm. What's the name of this site again? 
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:20:04 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:29:47 AM EDT
[#36]
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But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Sorry, no fancy engraving = not worth $30k |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:33:45 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:36:34 AM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:37:39 AM EDT
[#39]
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130yds wow Quote HistoryAmazing yes, But it was sort of like watching golf. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:38:47 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:39:12 AM EDT
[#41]
Those photos are after 500,000 rounds, unfortunately I cannot shoot sporting anymore so I sold it for just about what I paid for it.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:42:05 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cynergy is an interesting gun. They did borrow the hinge mechanism from Flodman, who may have gotten it from Petrik. Flodman is for those who want modern materials. Titanium actions and Damasteel barrels are options. On my short list for a double rifle if I ever win the lottery. http://www.flodman.com/images_en.htm http://www.flodman.com/images2/14.JPG http://www.flodman.com/images2/15.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Cynergy is an interesting gun. They did borrow the hinge mechanism from Flodman, who may have gotten it from Petrik. Flodman is for those who want modern materials. Titanium actions and Damasteel barrels are options. On my short list for a double rifle if I ever win the lottery. http://www.flodman.com/images_en.htm http://www.flodman.com/images2/14.JPG http://www.flodman.com/images2/15.JPG Damn it. Moar!
I gonna have to hit a big jackpot. Do not want to have to trim the lottery list. 
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:42:36 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes My Krieghoff trap gun says bullshit to the highlighted.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:45:52 AM EDT
[#44]
LOL. Tacticlowns can't figure out how to put a pistol grip on a real shotgun.
There's a lot to shooting, there's a lot to shotgun shooting. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 1:39:43 AM EDT
[#45]
Comparing a pump action to a fine double is like comparing a plastic digital watch to a Rolex.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 1:55:53 AM EDT
[#46]
I shot a round of sporting clays once that made my day. Most of us were shooting decent CZ O/Us (they were a sponsor). But an older lawyer -- late 60s -- outshot everyone with an old 870. Including the guys with $4000 Brownings!
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Posted: 10/27/2014 2:12:20 AM EDT
[#47]
Diminishing returns are a real thing.
Don't expect to shoot 10x better with a $10k shotgun than with a $1k shotgun. If money is an object get an old 870 Wingmaster and tons of ammo. If you're a VP, get yourself a Stoeger.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 2:19:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmm. What's the name of this site again? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Meh shotguns. Meh Ar15's Hmm. What's the name of this site again? Doesn't mean a person can't be apathetic to AR15's. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:22:00 AM EDT
[#49]
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My perspective, at least with shotguns, is as a beginner. I shot a couple rounds of trap as a teenager, but that was 10 years ago. After looking around the market for a little while, I just bought a cheap used Fausti from the Traditions line to get my feet wet. I'm guessing it's not a gun that I'll get tens of thousands of rounds through, but if I get to shooting like that, I'll probably upgrade anyways. But I've got to say, I'm a bit dissatisfied with the market, I'm probably not going to buy a new trap gun, and pricing is a big part of that. I'm not afraid to pay for quality, but there's a limit to what I'm willing to spend on any one gun. My S&W 17-2, for example, was significantly more expensive than a brand new Ruger SP-101, but the fit and finish and overall build quality makes it worth it to me. I could probably make similar comparisons with other guns, but I think you get the point. But any time I buy anything like that, I consider what I'm getting for the money. My S&W revolvers were worth it. My CZ bolt action rifles were worth it. But when I look at the $1500+ OUs, I almost immediately start wondering how much of that price tag is in that damn engraving. Engraving does nothing for me, and I don't give a damn about buying some kind of street cred with the old timey gentlemen's bunch. I want function and serviceability, and that's about it. As you suggest, I don't know that I'd expect Browning or Beretta to take that next step forward and ruin their cash cow. Maybe one of the two might to tap into a broader audience, but that would surprise me.I'm pretty sure another manufacturer would need to do that. Who? I don't know. I could maybe see Ruger doing it, but they've got to figure out where they're going with the Red Label. I've only seen one batch of the new ones go out, and there seems to be some shuffling. Remington could do it if they weren't being killed by a toxic corporate culture driven by accountants. FN/Winchester could do it, but they seem to be in an identity crisis. I'd like to think that something's got to give at some point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. I think the O/U market tends to support itself based on an informal hierarchy. That is evidenced in this thread. If people are willing to pay $3200 for a full sporting clays Citori, why would the market demand change? Browning and beretta operate as a duopoly with the majority of the mass market, and they both recognize without collusion that high prices must be supported, and are mutually beneficial. If market pressures dictated it, the quality could get there for a lot less money. But buyers still demand quality wood and silly aching engraving. Browning has done numerous "unconventional" cynergies, and they get overlooked at any price. The Turkish guns are getting better and better as the low end gets more competitive, so there is some possibilities there. Ultimately, I think if more younger people got into the sport, prices would be forced down. Not because we don't have the money. We do indeed have the money, and far less obligations than older buyers. But we tend to be better informed and have much more mobile decisions that would cause competition from a pricing perspective. We would also demand much more modular platforms. So the premium in extra barrels or barrel sets would be driven down as well. It would be interesting to see what an O/U would look like for someone brought up in a world of AR-15's almost exclusively. I imagine that a common receiver and fire control group would be the heart of such a system. My perspective, at least with shotguns, is as a beginner. I shot a couple rounds of trap as a teenager, but that was 10 years ago. After looking around the market for a little while, I just bought a cheap used Fausti from the Traditions line to get my feet wet. I'm guessing it's not a gun that I'll get tens of thousands of rounds through, but if I get to shooting like that, I'll probably upgrade anyways. But I've got to say, I'm a bit dissatisfied with the market, I'm probably not going to buy a new trap gun, and pricing is a big part of that. I'm not afraid to pay for quality, but there's a limit to what I'm willing to spend on any one gun. My S&W 17-2, for example, was significantly more expensive than a brand new Ruger SP-101, but the fit and finish and overall build quality makes it worth it to me. I could probably make similar comparisons with other guns, but I think you get the point. But any time I buy anything like that, I consider what I'm getting for the money. My S&W revolvers were worth it. My CZ bolt action rifles were worth it. But when I look at the $1500+ OUs, I almost immediately start wondering how much of that price tag is in that damn engraving. Engraving does nothing for me, and I don't give a damn about buying some kind of street cred with the old timey gentlemen's bunch. I want function and serviceability, and that's about it. As you suggest, I don't know that I'd expect Browning or Beretta to take that next step forward and ruin their cash cow. Maybe one of the two might to tap into a broader audience, but that would surprise me.I'm pretty sure another manufacturer would need to do that. Who? I don't know. I could maybe see Ruger doing it, but they've got to figure out where they're going with the Red Label. I've only seen one batch of the new ones go out, and there seems to be some shuffling. Remington could do it if they weren't being killed by a toxic corporate culture driven by accountants. FN/Winchester could do it, but they seem to be in an identity crisis. I'd like to think that something's got to give at some point. If I'm not mistaken, most of the engraving on the guns you can buy at big box stores, or typical dealers is done machine or laser. So, it's not really something that should contribute to the cost so much. I prefer clean, unadorned receivers personally. I like the clean look of the red labels especially. Browning has a nice unadorned citori out now with a street price of under $1800. Nice blued receiver. No silly puppies or birdies. The cynergy someone posted above would be ideal except for the FDE "wood". It seems that browning and beretta encourage the implanted American idea that stupid scenes of birds fleeing for their lives are a required feature of American market shotguns. Even the Europeans have abandoned these gruesome, Silly scenes. I guess I can appreciate them when down by hand on higher end guns, but on the mass market stuff, blegch. 
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. 
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:26:31 AM EDT
[#50]
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Cynergy is an interesting gun. They did borrow the hinge mechanism from Flodman, who may have gotten it from Petrik. Flodman is for those who want modern materials. Titanium actions and Damasteel barrels are options. On my short list for a double rifle if I ever win the lottery. http://www.flodman.com/images_en.htm http://www.flodman.com/images2/14.JPG http://www.flodman.com/images2/15.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Cynergy is an interesting gun. They did borrow the hinge mechanism from Flodman, who may have gotten it from Petrik. Flodman is for those who want modern materials. Titanium actions and Damasteel barrels are options. On my short list for a double rifle if I ever win the lottery. http://www.flodman.com/images_en.htm http://www.flodman.com/images2/14.JPG http://www.flodman.com/images2/15.JPG I got to try a Caprinus a few years ago, and it was tits. |
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