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Posted: 10/25/2014 11:54:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
The issue isn't 1 beer, I'm realistic enough to know 1 beer wouldn't cause a problem, it's the fact that with such a law in place people will abuse it and pretty soon 1 beer becomes 1 handle of vodka for some people. I agree with your logic about the absorption, believe me I do, but if such a law existed, do you think the general FSA public can handle that kind of responsibility? Liberal thinking would be to make ignition interlocks mandatory on ALL vehicles from the factory. I'm glad its not happening, but can you imagine a crazy world where an anti 2a argued that we need to ban everyone from having (insert scary gun/accessory) because there are a few that we cannot trust with the responsibility. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 11:54:55 AM EDT
[#2]
Hey OP what about the drunk driving pcs of shit who kill innocent pople & families becase they just wanted to relax......pull your fuck'in head outa your ASS.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 11:58:04 AM EDT
[#3]
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 11:59:59 AM EDT
[#4]
LOL, used to be "road six" here.
And could get "to go" cups (mixed drinks) at the drive thru window. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:12:41 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here in Texas open container was legal until the Federal Government was going to take away the federal highway funds. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:16:25 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're being ridiculous I am talking about coffee impairing someones ability to drive When you can show me that coffee causes impairment of a drivers functioning as alcohol does, we can talk about a need to limit coffee Til then, blaming coffee because the driver reached for a cup of it in the cupholder isn't the coffees fault Coffee is statistically more dangerous than any other beverage, including beer (which would presumably behave the same as a can of soda; I don't know. Sometimes that 5% alcohol content makes canned beverages do crazy things). The coffee is hot, and spills lead to collisions. It happens all the time. A ban on hot coffee, or a regulation limiting the maximum serving temperature to say a maximum of 110*F, would deffinitely save a few lives if people were to obey that law. We have laws against cell phone use. Why not laws prohibiting the consumption of food or beverages while driving? Cop sees you eating a cheeseburger, $100 ticket. Revenues would go up, and you might save a life or two. But obviously the place to start is coffee, since it's statistically the most dangerous. We've already made the point that the physical act of drinking a beer causes bad driving, so why not the physical act of drinking other things? If your metric is that the drug CAN cause impairment, regardless of how much of a dose is actually in the body, then caffeine is far more dangerous than alcohol. Just a few grams of it can be deadly. Go drink ten espressos and report back how well you can drive with heart palpitations. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:18:54 PM EDT
[#7]
I think road beers are still pretty common in rural areas. Fuck the nanny-staters. They have ruined the country.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:20:34 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nobody drinks one beer.  I usually only drink one beer. Maybe once a week I'll have more than one drink in a day. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:27:09 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I usually only drink one beer. Maybe once a week I'll have more than one drink in a day. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nobody drinks one beer. I usually only drink one beer. Maybe once a week I'll have more than one drink in a day. Your name must be Nobody, then, right? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 12:38:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah, memories. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Here in Texas open container was legal until the Federal Government was going to take away the federal highway funds. Yes, memories. I remember as a young buck being reamed out by a LEO for a half empty case of beer in the back of my truck in a public park. Oh he was pissed off. Told me he could give me a ticket for littering because he saw a half empty box, so the cans must have been discarded in the woods we were in... Then asked complemented me on my nice '66 Chevy and asked if I could make it home without damaging it. There was another one where everyone in the truck through their freshly opened "road beer" under the seat when being pulled over (everything was manual, choke, LIGHTS..). When the popo opened my door, beer rushed out like in the "buzzed driving" commercials. Took my ream out, gave an affirmative to the aforementioned question, went home. Early 90's How in the world did I ever make it out of there alive? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:02:07 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your masters have taught you well, to worship at the feet of the God of Safety. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
GD is full of drunk driver apologists who refuse to recognize the threat that they pose "I doubt kill anyone, so no harm no foul!" Sorry, drink and drive, you are a loser who deserves to be locked up. Your masters have taught you well, to worship at the feet of the God of Safety. the beer has rotted your brain. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:04:12 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:14:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. So a corona at a mexican restaurant automatically renders me incapable of rational judgement? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:14:30 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Nonsense! Alcohol turns me into a living god! |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:20:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey OP what about the drunk driving pcs of shit who kill innocent pople & families becase they just wanted to relax......pull your fuck'in head outa your ASS. Open container laws stop DUI deaths like the AWB prevented shootings 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:23:38 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the beer has rotted your brain. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: GD is full of drunk driver apologists who refuse to recognize the threat that they pose "I doubt kill anyone, so no harm no foul!" Sorry, drink and drive, you are a loser who deserves to be locked up. Your masters have taught you well, to worship at the feet of the God of Safety. the beer has rotted your brain. Have you prostrated yourself yet today? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:24:06 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. So, just as an aside to the whole gun control thing... You know how some gun control proponents claim that simply having a gun makes people violent? That the mere presence of a gun at all makes people want to pick it up and shoot people they get angry at? Road rage, noisy neighbors, that kind of thing? And, because such a claim is obviously nonsense, we tell them, you know, look, you're just projecting. You're recognizing perhaps that you have a weakness towards impulsive violence, or that you're afraid that you might, and because you can't consciously place blame on yourself, you're simply assuming that everyone thinks like you do. And because you wouldn't trust yourself with a gun, ergo, nobody else can be trusted either. But, just because you point out somebody's defense mechanism and logical fallacy doesn't automatically cure them. In fact, it probably won't change their mind. You can say, hey, look at all these millions of people who are perfectly law abiding with their guns and they never hurt anybody. You can show them that it's entirely possible to behave responsibly with a gun, and that it's up to the person and has nothing to do with the features or presence of the gun. But they won't ever get it, because they just can't admit to themselves that maybe somebody else has more self control than them or something. You know what I'm talking about? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:30:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Open container laws stop DUI deaths like the AWB prevented shootings Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hey OP what about the drunk driving pcs of shit who kill innocent pople & families becase they just wanted to relax......pull your fuck'in head outa your ASS. Open container laws stop DUI deaths like the AWB prevented shootings correct. laws stop nothing. it allows us to punish those who break them. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:40:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Maybe, when you drink. I don't have that problem.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:46:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, just as an aside to the whole gun control thing... You know how some gun control proponents claim that simply having a gun makes people violent? That the mere presence of a gun at all makes people want to pick it up and shoot people they get angry at? Road rage, noisy neighbors, that kind of thing? And, because such a claim is obviously nonsense, we tell them, you know, look, you're just projecting. You're recognizing perhaps that you have a weakness towards impulsive violence, or that you're afraid that you might, and because you can't consciously place blame on yourself, you're simply assuming that everyone thinks like you do. And because you wouldn't trust yourself with a gun, ergo, nobody else can be trusted either. But, just because you point out somebody's defense mechanism and logical fallacy doesn't automatically cure them. In fact, it probably won't change their mind. You can say, hey, look at all these millions of people who are perfectly law abiding with their guns and they never hurt anybody. You can show them that it's entirely possible to behave responsibly with a gun, and that it's up to the person and has nothing to do with the features or presence of the gun. But they won't ever get it, because they just can't admit to themselves that maybe somebody else has more self control than them or something. You know what I'm talking about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. So, just as an aside to the whole gun control thing... You know how some gun control proponents claim that simply having a gun makes people violent? That the mere presence of a gun at all makes people want to pick it up and shoot people they get angry at? Road rage, noisy neighbors, that kind of thing? And, because such a claim is obviously nonsense, we tell them, you know, look, you're just projecting. You're recognizing perhaps that you have a weakness towards impulsive violence, or that you're afraid that you might, and because you can't consciously place blame on yourself, you're simply assuming that everyone thinks like you do. And because you wouldn't trust yourself with a gun, ergo, nobody else can be trusted either. But, just because you point out somebody's defense mechanism and logical fallacy doesn't automatically cure them. In fact, it probably won't change their mind. You can say, hey, look at all these millions of people who are perfectly law abiding with their guns and they never hurt anybody. You can show them that it's entirely possible to behave responsibly with a gun, and that it's up to the person and has nothing to do with the features or presence of the gun. But they won't ever get it, because they just can't admit to themselves that maybe somebody else has more self control than them or something. You know what I'm talking about? see you keep going with the gun control comparison. but thats stupid because being in possession of a beer wont hurt anyone, just like being in possession of a gun wont hurt anyone. a law abiding gun owner is not a danger to anyone. a gun owner shooting wildly in a public place is a danger to all those around them. you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. you are a threat to those around you. even if you manage to not kill anyone, it doesnt change the fact that you are endangering their lives. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:46:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe, when you drink. I don't have that problem. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Maybe, when you drink. I don't have that problem. thats what they all say.....then they blow a .30
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:48:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So a corona at a mexican restaurant automatically renders me incapable of rational judgement? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. So a corona at a mexican restaurant automatically renders me incapable of rational judgement? as it pertains to just how impaired you are? yes. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:56:19 PM EDT
[#23]
I think it should remain illegal for the driver to consume.
HOWEVER! The passengers should be allowed to drink all they want. It works for responsible first world nations. Yes I know RESPONSIBLE is the key word. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 1:58:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
see you keep going with the gun control comparison. but thats stupid because being in possession of a beer wont hurt anyone, just like being in possession of a gun wont hurt anyone. a law abiding gun owner is not a danger to anyone. a gun owner shooting wildly in a public place is a danger to all those around them. you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. you are a threat to those around you. even if you manage to not kill anyone, it doesnt change the fact that you are endangering their lives. Ok. But what if I... Open... The beer? 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:01:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok. But what if I... Open... The beer? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
see you keep going with the gun control comparison. but thats stupid because being in possession of a beer wont hurt anyone, just like being in possession of a gun wont hurt anyone. a law abiding gun owner is not a danger to anyone. a gun owner shooting wildly in a public place is a danger to all those around them. you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. you are a threat to those around you. even if you manage to not kill anyone, it doesnt change the fact that you are endangering their lives. Ok. But what if I... Open... The beer? 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:03:29 PM EDT
[#26]
Zero tolerance = zero common sense.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:07:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Since all cops have access to accrate tests, open container laws are obsolete.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:17:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thats what they all say.....then they blow a .30 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If its legal to drink and carry a gun, as long as you are not intoxicated. Then I don't see why you can't drink and drive, as long as you are not intoxicated. when you drink you are unable to judge if you are intoxicated. Maybe, when you drink. I don't have that problem. thats what they all say.....then they blow a .30 Mighty broad brush. I do not drink and drive.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:20:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Ok. But what if I... Open... The beer? C'mon, don't be like that. Let's play a fun game. Let's assume Squeebo is a 185lb average male adult, and that he actually likes to drink Corona. On Monday, Squeebo goes to his favorite Mexican restaurant after work and drinks one Corona at the bar. Then he drives home. On Tuesday, Squeebo goes to the liquor store, buys a 6-pack of Corona, and drinks one while driving home. On which day did his actions require the intervention of government to mitigate a public danger, and why? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:24:13 PM EDT
[#30]
If you can't wait long enough to get home to have beer, you have a problem.... That type of person is the last one I would ever want having just "one" beer for the drive home...
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:51:48 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 10/25/2014 2:52:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you can't wait long enough to get home to have beer, you have a problem.... That type of person is the last one I would ever want having just "one" beer for the drive home... Profiling? 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 3:11:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: see you keep going with the gun control comparison. but thats stupid because being in possession of a beer wont hurt anyone, just like being in possession of a gun wont hurt anyone. a law abiding gun owner is not a danger to anyone. a gun owner shooting wildly in a public place is a danger to all those around them. you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. you are a threat to those around you. even if you manage to not kill anyone, it doesnt change the fact that you are endangering their lives. You missed his point. Gun control advocates use a fallacious form of inductive reasoning to justify their position; drinking and driving prohibitionists use the same. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 3:26:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Profiling? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you can't wait long enough to get home to have beer, you have a problem.... That type of person is the last one I would ever want having just "one" beer for the drive home... Profiling? Call it what you want. I see no difference between those who drink and drive and pedophiles in that neither believe what they're doing is wrong or hurts anybody...Fuck'em! |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 3:36:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You missed his point. Gun control advocates use a fallacious form of inductive reasoning to justify their position; drinking and driving prohibitionists use the same. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
see you keep going with the gun control comparison. but thats stupid because being in possession of a beer wont hurt anyone, just like being in possession of a gun wont hurt anyone. a law abiding gun owner is not a danger to anyone. a gun owner shooting wildly in a public place is a danger to all those around them. you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. you are a threat to those around you. even if you manage to not kill anyone, it doesnt change the fact that you are endangering their lives. You missed his point. Gun control advocates use a fallacious form of inductive reasoning to justify their position; drinking and driving prohibitionists use the same. no, you just suck at comparisons. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 3:49:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. Quote HistoryQuoted:
you drinking and driving is like driving down the road shooting wildly out the window. Quoted:
no, you just suck at comparisons. lol |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 3:50:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Move to Germany. 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 3:54:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Call it what you want. I see no difference between those who drink and drive and pedophiles in that neither believe what they're doing is wrong or hurts anybody...Fuck'em! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you can't wait long enough to get home to have beer, you have a problem.... That type of person is the last one I would ever want having just "one" beer for the drive home... Profiling? Call it what you want. I see no difference between those who drink and drive and pedophiles in that neither believe what they're doing is wrong or hurts anybody...Fuck'em! People who drink and drive: Just like pedophiles! - ChrisLe, 2014 |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:05:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Should be legal to drink a beer while driving as long as BAC is under the limit. Passengers should be able to get as shit faced as they want.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:08:08 PM EDT
[#40]
Arrest and punishment for "pre crime" should be abolished.
What's next? Standing in line at a liquor store that I drove to means I might drink and drive so arrest me on the spot? Having a gun within 1000 feet of a school means I'm going to shoot children? Without a crime there should be no arrest and punishment. Having an open container in a vehicle means nothing unless the driver is over the legal limit.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:12:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Folks sure do go through some wild gyrations and convulsions trying to justify full-time access the their drugs. Lol.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:19:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People who drink and drive: Just like pedophiles! - ChrisLe, 2014 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you can't wait long enough to get home to have beer, you have a problem.... That type of person is the last one I would ever want having just "one" beer for the drive home... Profiling? Call it what you want. I see no difference between those who drink and drive and pedophiles in that neither believe what they're doing is wrong or hurts anybody...Fuck'em! People who drink and drive: Just like pedophiles! - ChrisLe, 2014 Its called an analogy...I'm not comparing the act, but rather the fact that both use the same justification for their actions.... |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:21:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Arrest and punishment for "pre crime" should be abolished. What's next? Standing in line at a liquor store that I drove to means I might drink and drive so arrest me on the spot? Having a gun within 1000 feet of a school means I'm going to shoot children? Without a crime there should be no arrest and punishment. Having an open container in a vehicle means nothing unless the driver is over the legal limit. another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage 
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:23:01 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My road beer gets me to the bar |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:29:12 PM EDT
[#45]
federal gov't to the States: if you don't pass open container laws (and seat belt laws and speed limits and BAC limits) we'll withhold your highway funds.
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Posted: 10/25/2014 4:40:00 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Folks sure do go through some wild gyrations and convulsions trying to justify full-time access the their drugs. Lol. Like cigarette smokers? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:41:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Folks sure do go through some wild gyrations and convulsions trying to justify full-time access the their drugs. Lol. Makes more sense than trying to restrict the actions of others without a clear benefit to the public good. I still have yet to hear why an open can of beer makes you a bad driver, yet an open can of soda doesn't. If these can't be rationally justified, people shouldn't be punished for it. "Because I said so." only works when you have authority over someone. It doesn't fly if we're going to keep pretending this is a free society. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:43:12 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Arrest and punishment for "pre crime" should be abolished. What's next? Standing in line at a liquor store that I drove to means I might drink and drive so arrest me on the spot? Having a gun within 1000 feet of a school means I'm going to shoot children? Without a crime there should be no arrest and punishment. Having an open container in a vehicle means nothing unless the driver is over the legal limit. another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage I still have yet to hear why drinking a Corona at the bar and then driving is less dangerous than having it in your cup holder. |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 7:44:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Arrest and punishment for "pre crime" should be abolished. What's next? Standing in line at a liquor store that I drove to means I might drink and drive so arrest me on the spot? Having a gun within 1000 feet of a school means I'm going to shoot children? Without a crime there should be no arrest and punishment. Having an open container in a vehicle means nothing unless the driver is over the legal limit. another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage The OP outlined a scenario where drinking WHILE driving actively impairs less than drinking before driving. Do you object to the reasoning in the original post? |
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Posted: 10/25/2014 8:30:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Arrest and punishment for "pre crime" should be abolished. What's next? Standing in line at a liquor store that I drove to means I might drink and drive so arrest me on the spot? Having a gun within 1000 feet of a school means I'm going to shoot children? Without a crime there should be no arrest and punishment. Having an open container in a vehicle means nothing unless the driver is over the legal limit. another stupid argument drinking WHILE driving is not pre crime. they are actively impairing their ability to control the vehicle. there is not "might" drink and drive. they are in the act of doing it. thats some derpage If I crack a beer, 100m from my driveway, am I intoxicated? Yes, I broke a open container law, but is the law just? Does it prevent the habitual DWI? |
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