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Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:10:25 PM EDT
[#1]
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Quoted:
movie may have been fiction in some parts....but those pictures at the end are real....real lives...real families....real kids.....that is the important part of the movie...
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Good movie but very intense and tough to watch knowing that it actually happened.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:22:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Got a chance to hear Marcus speak a couple of weeks ago.  Moving story.  Told us about the places the movie was inaccurate.  He autographed a book for me.  Never Quit.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:33:04 PM EDT
[#3]
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The only problem is that none of it went down that way at all.  The movie is based on the book, and the book was ghost written by a sensationalist British military author who sat down with Marcus in one, unrecorded session for the material.

For those of us who spent years in the reconnaissance community, who have heard the details of Marcus's own AAR/debrief post recovery (by Army elements of SOCOM), there is no mention of most of what is written in the book.  For starters, Ahmad Shah never was responsible for the deaths of 20 Marines.  There weren't even 20 Marines KIA in Afghanistan by July, 2005.  There were 9 USMC fatalities as of the commencement of Operation Red Wings in June of 2005, which The Lone Survivor doesn't even correctly name on the book cover.

If you doubt this, here is the list of US fatalities, not even just KIA, but fatalities from accidents as well:  Casualties OEF Afghanistan

Ahmad Shah wasn't even a High Value Target.  He was a Target of Interest that 3/3 Marines had planned to pinpoint with one of their recon teams from the STA Platoon.  Instead, the mission was given to the SEALs, and they planned and executed it horrendously.  They failed before they even got to Afghanistan.  Ahmad Shah had a group consisting of 7 other fighters, 8 total with him.  They were the only ones who ambushed the SEALs after they were compromised.

The compromise of the team was a textbook lesson in how to do the opposite of everything you learn as a Reconnaissance commando, as well as leadership failures all the way up to the CJSOTF.  They didn't have a no-commo plan, they only took 2 commo devices, an MBITR and the SAT Phone, which is an emergency layer that should come after 2 other layers of radios.  They didn't have a mission support site, no commo/terrain mitigation plan, no camouflage/hide site, rigged out for CQB rather than SR, took only 5.56 small arms including SPR's?, emplaced their OP on a ledge surrounded by high ground, with absolutely nowhere to E&E from, and most likely were asleep when the goat herders walked up on them, bells and all on the goats' necks.

It's fairly easy even then to get out of that one, once they were soft compromised.  Send your communicator and another man for security up the mountain to make comms and provide a SITREP, with an immediate request for exfil, while the 2 other men guard the goat herders.  If they had stayed off the stupid goat trails, complete with goat scat, they never would have been caught racked out in the first place.

Even from the perspective of a first-term Recon soldier in an Army Scout Platoon, there are so many things they did wrong before they even got there that are painfully clear to see.  For someone who has spent time in several recon units spanning 10 years, including the leadership and detailed mission planning pieces of the pie, this whole episode makes you ask why they didn't have the proper training to conduct a pretty basic operation.  Unfortunately, it comes as no surprise for those of us who have deployed as part of a CJSOTF, or worked with the SEALs in a professional capacity.

If you really want to get misty eyed, think of the highly sensitive equipment that was recovered by Ahmad Shah and his men:

* Ruggedized laptop with intact hard drive, to include detailed imagery of sensitive US locations in the region that had no business even being on the mission
* MBITR radio
* 3 SOPMOD configured M4A1 carbines with Own The Night accessories, 2 with M203 Grenade Launchers
* Night Vision Devices
* Spotting scope

How many lives were lost, and how much additional effort had to be sacrificed in the recovery?  For starters, the ad hoc QRF and the MH-47 crew were all killed within hours. The equally big picture consequences revolve around that hard drive and the weapons.
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great movie, why the didn't smoke those goat people is beyond me.  Guess there is a reason I never served, no way I could follow rules of engagement in those situations.



Did you read the book?

They voted as a group on whether to follow ROE, and it came down to one vote.

Goat herders lived, all but Marcus died.

I recall very early in the book him dissing the ROE, when he said if he met bin Laden, he would shoot him dead. Just because of who he is.

I also remember him making a remark about the ROE at that point.


The only problem is that none of it went down that way at all.  The movie is based on the book, and the book was ghost written by a sensationalist British military author who sat down with Marcus in one, unrecorded session for the material.

For those of us who spent years in the reconnaissance community, who have heard the details of Marcus's own AAR/debrief post recovery (by Army elements of SOCOM), there is no mention of most of what is written in the book.  For starters, Ahmad Shah never was responsible for the deaths of 20 Marines.  There weren't even 20 Marines KIA in Afghanistan by July, 2005.  There were 9 USMC fatalities as of the commencement of Operation Red Wings in June of 2005, which The Lone Survivor doesn't even correctly name on the book cover.

If you doubt this, here is the list of US fatalities, not even just KIA, but fatalities from accidents as well:  Casualties OEF Afghanistan

Ahmad Shah wasn't even a High Value Target.  He was a Target of Interest that 3/3 Marines had planned to pinpoint with one of their recon teams from the STA Platoon.  Instead, the mission was given to the SEALs, and they planned and executed it horrendously.  They failed before they even got to Afghanistan.  Ahmad Shah had a group consisting of 7 other fighters, 8 total with him.  They were the only ones who ambushed the SEALs after they were compromised.

The compromise of the team was a textbook lesson in how to do the opposite of everything you learn as a Reconnaissance commando, as well as leadership failures all the way up to the CJSOTF.  They didn't have a no-commo plan, they only took 2 commo devices, an MBITR and the SAT Phone, which is an emergency layer that should come after 2 other layers of radios.  They didn't have a mission support site, no commo/terrain mitigation plan, no camouflage/hide site, rigged out for CQB rather than SR, took only 5.56 small arms including SPR's?, emplaced their OP on a ledge surrounded by high ground, with absolutely nowhere to E&E from, and most likely were asleep when the goat herders walked up on them, bells and all on the goats' necks.

It's fairly easy even then to get out of that one, once they were soft compromised.  Send your communicator and another man for security up the mountain to make comms and provide a SITREP, with an immediate request for exfil, while the 2 other men guard the goat herders.  If they had stayed off the stupid goat trails, complete with goat scat, they never would have been caught racked out in the first place.

Even from the perspective of a first-term Recon soldier in an Army Scout Platoon, there are so many things they did wrong before they even got there that are painfully clear to see.  For someone who has spent time in several recon units spanning 10 years, including the leadership and detailed mission planning pieces of the pie, this whole episode makes you ask why they didn't have the proper training to conduct a pretty basic operation.  Unfortunately, it comes as no surprise for those of us who have deployed as part of a CJSOTF, or worked with the SEALs in a professional capacity.

If you really want to get misty eyed, think of the highly sensitive equipment that was recovered by Ahmad Shah and his men:

* Ruggedized laptop with intact hard drive, to include detailed imagery of sensitive US locations in the region that had no business even being on the mission
* MBITR radio
* 3 SOPMOD configured M4A1 carbines with Own The Night accessories, 2 with M203 Grenade Launchers
* Night Vision Devices
* Spotting scope

How many lives were lost, and how much additional effort had to be sacrificed in the recovery?  For starters, the ad hoc QRF and the MH-47 crew were all killed within hours. The equally big picture consequences revolve around that hard drive and the weapons.

If I identified it correctly in the video, there was also a x50 or x100 Thermal viewer captured also.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:33:56 PM EDT
[#4]
I saw him speak either last year or the year before on the Patriot Tour.  They had a tiered ticket system, with VIP, front row, etc. tickets.  A local business bought a bunch for friends, but one was a no show, so I got to go instead.  No way am I paying $150 to go hear a SEAL speak about pretty much any topic you can pick, but I'll go for free.

It was interesting.

I won't be buying the book or paying to see the movie.  I will purchase Victory Point, written by the Marine Intel guys that actually spell out the cold, hard truth of that AOR and time frame.

If there is one good thing to come from this, I would suggest people do that.

Victory Point Site

Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:36:57 PM EDT
[#5]
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Those guys were British SAS.
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Some here might remember that some of our soliders were compromised during a "recon" mission during the first Gulf War where they were
discovered by goat herders as I recall. The soliders were faced with the question of killing kids with a suppressed handgun or not.
They decided not to engage the kids and subsequently were rated out and became engaged in a fearce firefight. Their only savior
was from air support dumping ordnance "danger close" as it was said in the documentary.


Those guys were British SAS.

Different incident.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:48:28 PM EDT
[#6]
I saw the movie, it was OK for what it was, but after knowing how the facts were distorted on the actual events, and the BS ending with the village being attacked to save him, It just does not work for me...

I'm a big boy, I like to hear/ see the whole unvarnished truth... That's the heart of a real true AAR and they only way they work, so you don't make the same mistakes... sadly not what happened here.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 1:54:10 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
I saw him speak either last year or the year before on the Patriot Tour.  They had a tiered ticket system, with VIP, front row, etc. tickets.  A local business bought a bunch for friends, but one was a no show, so I got to go instead.  No way am I paying $150 to go hear a SEAL speak about pretty much any topic you can pick, but I'll go for free.

It was interesting.

I won't be buying the book or paying to see the movie.  I will purchase Victory Point, written by the Marine Intel guys that actually spell out the cold, hard truth of that AOR and time frame.

If there is one good thing to come from this, I would suggest people do that.

Victory Point Site

http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/images/final-cover344.jpg
View Quote

I ordered a copy last night. I am very interested to hear another point of view.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 2:13:21 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:

I ordered a copy last night. I am very interested to hear another point of view.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I saw him speak either last year or the year before on the Patriot Tour.  They had a tiered ticket system, with VIP, front row, etc. tickets.  A local business bought a bunch for friends, but one was a no show, so I got to go instead.  No way am I paying $150 to go hear a SEAL speak about pretty much any topic you can pick, but I'll go for free.

It was interesting.

I won't be buying the book or paying to see the movie.  I will purchase Victory Point, written by the Marine Intel guys that actually spell out the cold, hard truth of that AOR and time frame.

If there is one good thing to come from this, I would suggest people do that.

Victory Point Site

http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/images/final-cover344.jpg

I ordered a copy last night. I am very interested to hear another point of view.

It is a good read.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 6:32:11 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
I saw him speak either last year or the year before on the Patriot Tour.  They had a tiered ticket system, with VIP, front row, etc. tickets.  A local business bought a bunch for friends, but one was a no show, so I got to go instead.  No way am I paying $150 to go hear a SEAL speak about pretty much any topic you can pick, but I'll go for free.

It was interesting.

I won't be buying the book or paying to see the movie.  I will purchase Victory Point, written by the Marine Intel guys that actually spell out the cold, hard truth of that AOR and time frame.

If there is one good thing to come from this, I would suggest people do that.

Victory Point Site

http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/images/final-cover344.jpg
View Quote




Just FWIW,if you have Amazon streaming,now Captain Ben Middendorf's company was the unit National Geographic was embedded with to make Battlefield Afghanistan.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 7:47:27 PM EDT
[#10]
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Yep.

Also, the only 100% truthful parts of the movie are the beginning that shows SEAL training, and the end that shows the real KIA.  

It is however a good movie.
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Luttrell's disgust for ROE is pretty obvious in the book.

It's pretty easy to blame some generic term when the deaths of Americans was mostly caused by their own errors and the attributes of their favored organization at the time.

ROE didn't kill them.


Yep.

Also, the only 100% truthful parts of the movie are the beginning that shows SEAL training, and the end that shows the real KIA.  

It is however a good movie.

.Marcus was there , we were not, nor were the writers or the filmmakers. I'm ex USN, and I trust a SEAL like my own brothers, one of whom was with JSOC Afghan during this time period. ROE has been killing people since South East Asia War Games. Indigenous personnel  are an unknown, usually feeding intelligence to insurgents, and accepting our aid during the day. Kill them all, the Lord will know His own, As the Templar Knights recommended,
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 7:53:28 PM EDT
[#11]
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Yep.

Also, the only 100% truthful parts of the movie are the beginning that shows SEAL training, and the end that shows the real KIA.  

It is however a good movie.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:

Luttrell's disgust for ROE is pretty obvious in the book.

It's pretty easy to blame some generic term when the deaths of Americans was mostly caused by their own errors and the attributes of their favored organization at the time.

ROE didn't kill them.


Yep.

Also, the only 100% truthful parts of the movie are the beginning that shows SEAL training, and the end that shows the real KIA.  

It is however a good movie.


Not everyone was shown in the end a few where left off because the family's didn't want any part of the movie.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:05:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Got a little dusty at the end....


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I always get pissed, not sad.  
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:22:19 PM EDT
[#13]
It's a great movie. Not quite to what happened, but close enough to tell a story more should know.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:30:29 PM EDT
[#14]

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Quoted:





.Marcus was there , we were not, nor were the writers or the filmmakers. I'm ex USN, and I trust a SEAL like my own brothers, one of whom was with JSOC Afghan during this time period. ROE has been killing people since South East Asia War Games. Indigenous personnel  are an unknown, usually feeding intelligence to insurgents, and accepting our aid during the day. Kill them all, the Lord will know His own, As the Templar Knights recommended,
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:



.Marcus was there , we were not, nor were the writers or the filmmakers. I'm ex USN, and I trust a SEAL like my own brothers, one of whom was with JSOC Afghan during this time period. ROE has been killing people since South East Asia War Games. Indigenous personnel  are an unknown, usually feeding intelligence to insurgents, and accepting our aid during the day. Kill them all, the Lord will know His own, As the Templar Knights recommended,
That would hold water if not for the fact that Shah had a video crew with multiple cameras record the whole thing. Then the powers that be disappeared the video so it wouldn't disrupt the covering of the shitshow with medals.



 
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:33:25 PM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:
The movie was great as was the book
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I liked the book, just started a reread of it.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:36:36 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
I saw the movie, it was OK for what it was, but after knowing how the facts were distorted on the actual events, and the BS ending with the village being attacked to save him, It just does not work for me...

I'm a big boy, I like to hear/ see the whole unvarnished truth... That's the heart of a real true AAR and they only way they work, so you don't make the same mistakes... sadly not what happened here.
View Quote


Which I agree with, but if the movie had followed 100% to the truth! it wouldn't have sold well to the masses. At least this way more people know, and are talking of the story.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:37:00 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:

It is a good read.
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Quoted:
I saw him speak either last year or the year before on the Patriot Tour.  They had a tiered ticket system, with VIP, front row, etc. tickets.  A local business bought a bunch for friends, but one was a no show, so I got to go instead.  No way am I paying $150 to go hear a SEAL speak about pretty much any topic you can pick, but I'll go for free.

It was interesting.

I won't be buying the book or paying to see the movie.  I will purchase Victory Point, written by the Marine Intel guys that actually spell out the cold, hard truth of that AOR and time frame.

If there is one good thing to come from this, I would suggest people do that.

Victory Point Site

http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/images/final-cover344.jpg

I ordered a copy last night. I am very interested to hear another point of view.

It is a good read.


I've added it to my reading list.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:50:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I saw him speak either last year or the year before on the Patriot Tour.  They had a tiered ticket system, with VIP, front row, etc. tickets.  A local business bought a bunch for friends, but one was a no show, so I got to go instead.  No way am I paying $150 to go hear a SEAL speak about pretty much any topic you can pick, but I'll go for free.

It was interesting.

I won't be buying the book or paying to see the movie.  I will purchase Victory Point, written by the Marine Intel guys that actually spell out the cold, hard truth of that AOR and time frame.

If there is one good thing to come from this, I would suggest people do that.

Victory Point Site

http://www.darack.com/sawtalosar/images/final-cover344.jpg
View Quote


No shit my copy of that book arrived in the mail today. Can't wait to get into it.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 8:55:14 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:


Those guys were British SAS.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Some here might remember that some of our soliders were compromised during a "recon" mission during the first Gulf War where they were
discovered by goat herders as I recall. The soliders were faced with the question of killing kids with a suppressed handgun or not.
They decided not to engage the kids and subsequently were rated out and became engaged in a fearce firefight. Their only savior
was from air support dumping ordnance "danger close" as it was said in the documentary.


Those guys were British SAS.


Andy McNabb right? Bravo two Zero?
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 10:53:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Saw the thread title and decided to watch it again. Even heavier the second time.
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 11:26:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 10/22/2014 11:28:50 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
My concern with the increasing exaggeration of the opposing forces is it plays into the mentality that special forces are super infantry.*

Blackhawk down ( the book particularly) does a good job of describing how having the experienced delta force members made a big difference in being mentors who helped keep the Greener troops in the fight and kept moral up. I don't know anything about combat, but it always matters having someone present who is experienced and knows how to go about things in kind of a business like fashion "okay they did A, we do B, C and D, just like we practiced"

But in the end you need infantry to take and hold ground, and lots of politicians want to disassemble our military and try to get by depending on commandos to basically carry out missions normally handled by larger groups of infantry (or Rangers/Marines/Airborne troops etc)

* I don't care if you are pinned down by a hundred guys, or 8 guys, exposing yourself to machinegun fire to call for back up for your teammates is heroic.
 
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"7 P"s
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