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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:35:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at the events in the anti-Russian context starting shortly before the events in February. It fits a lot more perfectly than from the Russian perspective that they're innocent. Because to the average American, it looked like Russia was trying to keep a stranglehold on the Ukraine economy when part of Ukraine desired entrance into the EU, and the citizens getting pissed, and revolting, and now the Russians are trying to take what they can, and pretend that it's the citizens doing it themselves. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As for Putin, he may be a wannabe Stalin and oppressor of fags, but he is proud of his country, its more than I can say about our current POS. It doesn't give him free reign in my book, but it does show one quality that I wish our pres had. I have a real hard time accepting any story this administration is giving us at face value. Putin is not proud of his country. He is a thug using nationalism to gain support in the wake of economic collapse the way Hitler did. Except Putin is gearing up to be more expansionist, and not a genocidal racist. He's a Neo-Soviet. I agree with what you're saying about Obama. I don't believe most things the WH says. But this is a story we can clearly see is Russian thuggary. I believe what you're saying about your wife's parents, but it's possible that they just aren't seeing everything. How many American's don't believe that mass immigration is occurring even though they live here? Its entirely possible they aren't seeing everything. They over there think that Putin is proud of the country (that's where I got the impression he was proud) but, its also possible that is just a play by him to make himself seem like the victim. I am more than willing to admit that Russia is in the wrong on this if some proof comes up. I just haven't seen anything other than our admin making statements. From their statements it surely does look like Russian thuggary. They have lied so much that anytime they speak it makes me want to find out the other sides story . Maybe that's just me being cynical. I don't blindly believe anyone especially obamo. Look at the events in the anti-Russian context starting shortly before the events in February. It fits a lot more perfectly than from the Russian perspective that they're innocent. Because to the average American, it looked like Russia was trying to keep a stranglehold on the Ukraine economy when part of Ukraine desired entrance into the EU, and the citizens getting pissed, and revolting, and now the Russians are trying to take what they can, and pretend that it's the citizens doing it themselves. I get that side of it, but why would they overthrown the president instead of voting for the change they wanted? If a vote would not have been considered legitimate, then who is say that is is now either? The other side would ask "if it was the citizens getting pissed and revolting then why was the US state department and Mccain over there in December? And why was Victoria nuland, US state dept, on tape talking about who to put into power?" For them it appears as though the US had a hand in the revolt. Maybe we did not, but our gov has a long track record of meddling in regime changes. All they are seeing is that the elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup instead of a vote. I don't doubt that Russia is helping the seperatists and trying to keep its power in the region, but I also have doubts that our gov is on the up and up when it comes to Ukraine. I don't know that we would do much different if china tried to stick their nose in mexico's politics. Who are we supposed to believe? Probably neither side is being honest about anything, and if that is true then how does anyone of us pick a side period? The video on vice news where they are hunting down a seperatist who helped organize a vote really hit me the wrong way. If someone did that here we would shit a brick. Combine a distrust in our dear leader, inlaws and friends there, videos of the svoboda leader, that is where my opinion has come from. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:45:41 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get that side of it, but why would they overthrown the president instead of voting for the change they wanted? If a vote would not have been considered legitimate, then who is say that is is now either? The other side would ask "if it was the citizens getting pissed and revolting then why was the US state department and Mccain over there in December? And why was Victoria nuland, US state dept, on tape talking about who to put into power?" For them it appears as though the US had a hand in the revolt. Maybe we did not, but our gov has a long track record of meddling in regime changes. All they are seeing is that the elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup instead of a vote. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get that side of it, but why would they overthrown the president instead of voting for the change they wanted? If a vote would not have been considered legitimate, then who is say that is is now either? The other side would ask "if it was the citizens getting pissed and revolting then why was the US state department and Mccain over there in December? And why was Victoria nuland, US state dept, on tape talking about who to put into power?" For them it appears as though the US had a hand in the revolt. Maybe we did not, but our gov has a long track record of meddling in regime changes. All they are seeing is that the elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup instead of a vote. It's likely that the votes were manipulated by the government. With all the secret police esque shit, and censorship shenanigans, I don't know how anybody could put it past them. The vote would be meaningful now, because the people who'd have been manipulating election results would be out of power. And even if the US State Dept. was involved, why is that a bad thing? Anything that removes a country from the influence of the Russian government is a good thing, in my eyes. The Russian people might not be so bad. That I'm perfectly willing to believe. But the government? Full of thugs. I don't doubt that Russia is helping the seperatists and trying to keep its power in the region, but I also have doubts that our gov is on the up and up when it comes to Ukraine. I don't know that we would do much different if china tried to stick their nose in mexico's politics. Who are we supposed to believe? Probably neither side is being honest about anything, and if that is true then how does anyone of us pick a side period? The video on vice news where they are hunting down a seperatist who helped organize a vote really hit me the wrong way. If someone did that here we would shit a brick. Combine a distrust in our dear leader, inlaws and friends there, videos of the svoboda leader, that is where my opinion has come from.
I completely understand. I just disagree. Playing dirty against a prior enemy, and potentially unstable power is not a bad thing, in my opinion. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:59:41 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's likely that the votes were manipulated by the government. With all the secret police esque shit, and censorship shenanigans, I don't know how anybody could put it past them. The vote would be meaningful now, because the people who'd have been manipulating election results would be out of power. And even if the US State Dept. was involved, why is that a bad thing? Anything that removes a country from the influence of the Russian government is a good thing, in my eyes. The Russian people might not be so bad. That I'm perfectly willing to believe. But the government? Full of thugs. I completely understand. I just disagree. Playing dirty against a prior enemy, and potentially unstable power is not a bad thing, in my opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I get that side of it, but why would they overthrown the president instead of voting for the change they wanted? If a vote would not have been considered legitimate, then who is say that is is now either? The other side would ask "if it was the citizens getting pissed and revolting then why was the US state department and Mccain over there in December? And why was Victoria nuland, US state dept, on tape talking about who to put into power?" For them it appears as though the US had a hand in the revolt. Maybe we did not, but our gov has a long track record of meddling in regime changes. All they are seeing is that the elected president of Ukraine was overthrown in a coup instead of a vote. It's likely that the votes were manipulated by the government. With all the secret police esque shit, and censorship shenanigans, I don't know how anybody could put it past them. The vote would be meaningful now, because the people who'd have been manipulating election results would be out of power. And even if the US State Dept. was involved, why is that a bad thing? Anything that removes a country from the influence of the Russian government is a good thing, in my eyes. The Russian people might not be so bad. That I'm perfectly willing to believe. But the government? Full of thugs. I don't doubt that Russia is helping the seperatists and trying to keep its power in the region, but I also have doubts that our gov is on the up and up when it comes to Ukraine. I don't know that we would do much different if china tried to stick their nose in mexico's politics. Who are we supposed to believe? Probably neither side is being honest about anything, and if that is true then how does anyone of us pick a side period? The video on vice news where they are hunting down a seperatist who helped organize a vote really hit me the wrong way. If someone did that here we would shit a brick. Combine a distrust in our dear leader, inlaws and friends there, videos of the svoboda leader, that is where my opinion has come from.
I completely understand. I just disagree. Playing dirty against a prior enemy, and potentially unstable power is not a bad thing, in my opinion. That's the thing with me I guess. Russia is weak enough as it is that I don't think our help is needed for countries to leave the sphere of influence. Now who to buy gas from, and who gets trade deals, that is something that I could stand behind. Being involved in a coup pretty much goes against everything our "democracy" stands for doesn't it? That's assuming we had anything to do with it.... How many times have we been involved in a coup and the had the party we helped come back to bite us? When the newly in power parliament members, using their own armed guards, are breaking down doors of old men while they are sleeping, kidnapping them because they helped organize a vote.....that kind of goes against our "democracy" too. Russian gov is definitely full of thugs, but so are both sides in Ukraine. I could absolutely see the seperatists using some of the same tactics that kiev is using, they just haven't made videos of it yet. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:22:40 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Im not sure if I should even venture into here, but here goes. Which issues do we automatically believe everything that the WH is telling us? Benghazi? IRS scandal? Immigration? Ebola? Fast and Furious? Obamacare? Solyndra? Bergdahl? Anything? Ukraine, all they have to do is bring up the old USSR and everyone (especially gun guys here) will believe everything they say as long as it reaffirms Putin and Russia are still bad. They may well be bad, but the lies from our WH have caused me to look at both sides of the story on all issues, not just a few. Ive said it before but my wife's family 30 miles from the Ukraine border are seeing (not their news, but in person) different things than what we are hearing in our news. BTW OP, you wont get any support on arfcom, most likely only put on the troll list in the pit. Look OP, you have your first sympathizer! Lucky for you he's one of the all knowing 14ers. 
A glimpse via Google shows a history of supporting Russia and Putin worship. Knew it would turn out like this. I have hunted there, multiple times. That doesn't mean I support Putin or Russia. I find it curious that nobody else will look at both sides of the story when it comes to this. Although I do have to say, I would not have given it 2 thoughts before I hunted over there and met the guys I know now. Not a 14er either. Been here since before most of you, Waiting on a penguin to reinstate my old name. So about that stolen farm equipment. Care to share that story? Or was that also an alternate point of view? 
That is the point he really wanted to get out by telling everyone to google me. Its easier to discredit based on past fuckups. "Fuckups"??!! Really? Three solid years of stealing other farmers' expensive machinery (in multiple states) is a "fuckup"? Not in my world. bah, nvm.  
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Posted: 10/22/2014 6:06:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Awesome
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Posted: 10/22/2014 6:49:04 AM EDT
[#6]
This thread lays it out in such a black and white manner....
1) Blatant Russian Propagandist who is in fact Russian, and spewing talking points that could be straight from the Kremlin. 2) American Russia supporter with a shady background, playing the role of the "useful idiot." Central casting. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 9:41:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread lays it out in such a black and white manner.... 1) Blatant Russian Propagandist who is in fact Russian, and spewing talking points that could be straight from the Kremlin. 2) American Russia supporter with a shady background, playing the role of the "useful idiot." Central casting. Google did turn up some eye-opening news articles on the RyanH name. One of them mentioned his wife is Russian (all the "hunting trips" over probably include lots of visiting with family and friends back there*)...perhaps this propagandist is actually in the guy's married-into family or circle of friends? Wouldn't put it past them. 
* edited to add in...so definitely in no way an "impartial" person. Also a point he did not feel was necessary to disclose, and just made it sound like he got to know the locals while in Russia on a few "hunting trips," definitely did not "come clean" and state how close his ties really are and where he may have been learning all his info from...just had to add this as I in no way want to be seen as some sort of arocker dragging a spouse into arfcom shenanigans, but in this instance it is a very pertinent piece of the puzzle (why he's in this thread so hot and heavy) and clearly stated in the news articles about the dude. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:29:13 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryNo, a "broken clock" reference would mean that you SOMETIMES say things that match what is coming from Russian State Media. That is not the case. EVERYTHING you have said is perfectly in line with what is coming out of Russian State Media. Nope. Russian state media is basically CNN in reverse, claiming that the other side has no real presence within Ukraine and is limited to a few thousand NGO-trained thugs and a puppet government. The continuum is basically like this: CNN ------------ truth --------------- RT Obviously, anyone being truthful seems to be coming from RT side to you. As for why I blame Obama gov't - well, they threw the first stone. Or rather, they eagerly supported and nurtured the civil unrest (the actual "first stone" seems to have been a power play by a couple local oligarchs against Yanukovich) |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:34:32 AM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:You've quoted liveleak videos several times. Find me the CNN anchors who regularly quit on air because they know what they're being asked to peddle is propoganda pure and simple. How many RT talking heads have quit in the past year. . . ON AIR.
Haven't been following it, but two I think. Why is that surprising? RT hires local personnel. Obviously some English journalist living in London is gonna be brainwashed by anti-Russian propaganda all the time and then have to go push Russian propaganda at work. That is bound to create some internal conflicts. A bit far fetched, but: Imagine US hiring some brainwashed Nork freelancers and then starting a border war with NK. Is it surprising some journalists would quit? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 11:45:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Russian state media is basically CNN in reverse, claiming that the other side has no real presence within Ukraine and is limited to a few thousand NGO-trained thugs and a puppet government. The continuum is basically like this: CNN ------------ truth --------------- RT Obviously, anyone being truthful seems to be coming from RT side to you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, a "broken clock" reference would mean that you SOMETIMES say things that match what is coming from Russian State Media. That is not the case. EVERYTHING you have said is perfectly in line with what is coming out of Russian State Media. Nope. Russian state media is basically CNN in reverse, claiming that the other side has no real presence within Ukraine and is limited to a few thousand NGO-trained thugs and a puppet government. The continuum is basically like this: CNN ------------ truth --------------- RT Obviously, anyone being truthful seems to be coming from RT side to you. As much as there is a political bias coming from CNN, that is a far cry from being a Government funded, official arm of the Government. As for why I blame Obama gov't - well, they threw the first stone. Or rather, they eagerly supported and nurtured the civil unrest (the actual "first stone" seems to have been a power play by a couple local oligarchs against Yanukovich) Yes, THAT is exactly what one hears coming from RT and the other Russian State media outlets. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:20:32 PM EDT
[#11]
OP filled my head full of fuck.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 12:53:17 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do what the Chinese do - be pragmatic, bribe anyone you can, and play the long game. They now surpassed US in the African market - with far less resources wasted and locals pissed off. Do what the Israelis do - targeted, measured interventions, border security. They lost fewer people to terrorism than US over the last 20 years or so, despite being in a far worse strategic position. Heck, do what the Russian Federation usually does - pay the enemy leaders 5% of the money the war would cost. It's crap strategy in the long run, though. Just don't get caught up occupying a country without the manpower and political competence to do so. Heck, Saddam was a law school dropout and he could run Iraq fine. Ditto for the Taliban cave dwellers. Bush and Obama? Not so much. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obama is a full on retard, but you still don't know what you're talking about, dude.
Why were Afghanistan and Iraq ill-conceived? What should have have done after 9/11? What should we have done about Saddam? Do what the Chinese do - be pragmatic, bribe anyone you can, and play the long game. They now surpassed US in the African market - with far less resources wasted and locals pissed off. Do what the Israelis do - targeted, measured interventions, border security. They lost fewer people to terrorism than US over the last 20 years or so, despite being in a far worse strategic position. Heck, do what the Russian Federation usually does - pay the enemy leaders 5% of the money the war would cost. It's crap strategy in the long run, though. Just don't get caught up occupying a country without the manpower and political competence to do so. Heck, Saddam was a law school dropout and he could run Iraq fine. Ditto for the Taliban cave dwellers. Bush and Obama? Not so much. The Chinese are not the US. They are scrambling for resources in vain attempts to meet a demand they can never meet. The Israeli's are not the US. They have a totally different geopolitical set of challenges. Russia is not the US, and also has a serious set of geopolitical challenges, none of them resembling anything the US has. So why again should the US take notes from these 3 nations on how to deal with economic warfare (Iraq) and terrorism? If the Ukraine conspired with other nations to no longer accept the Russian Ruble, what would Russia do, especially if it benefited the replacement currency that Ukraine chose? If Tibet and Vietnam started harboring training camps for insurgents who were targeting China, what would China do? Your understanding of the world is too colored by your regional orientation, and a diet of disinformation in both Eurasia and Western media. Your attempts to veil yourself as anti-Russian didn't make it past page 1 of AR15.com GD. Mix in some truth about Russian and Ukrainian disinformation campaigns, but let the cat out of the bag that you blame the US for the problems in the region, military industrial complex, etc. It's getting old really. Every time you guys pull this, it affirms the profound conclusion I realized when looking at Moscow: "These poor folks are never going to recover from what the Bolsheviks did here almost a century ago." |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:06:17 PM EDT
[#13]
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Lets put it this way: What won the Cold War wasn't the fighter jets and nukes, it was convincing the Soviets that the US way of life was better, that US was their friend. So Russians voluntarily left half of Europe and dismantled their empire. All US gave them in return was humiliation and aggression. The definition of insanity is repeating the same failed thing again and again. The definition of total insanity is switching from a policy that worked to a policy that failed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is the face of an enemy sypathizer folks. Lets put it this way: What won the Cold War wasn't the fighter jets and nukes, it was convincing the Soviets that the US way of life was better, that US was their friend. So Russians voluntarily left half of Europe and dismantled their empire. All US gave them in return was humiliation and aggression. The definition of insanity is repeating the same failed thing again and again. The definition of total insanity is switching from a policy that worked to a policy that failed. Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? The Soviet Union failed because it was built on a really bad political-economic-social model from an exiled apostate agitator who never worked a day in his life. This system was chosen by the Germans when they financed Lenin to take over the work several other revolutionary groups had done before October, 1917, so that the Germans could get the Czarist Army out of Europe during the Great War. The British used a similar strategy with the Saudi tribes, aligned under the work of T.E. Laurence, so they could attack the Ottoman-Turks in their strategic rear, to divert them from Europe. If I asked a Russian what they thought about an unemployed German dissident agitator living in rat-infested slums in Eastern London, devising their political-economic-social model, would they support such a plan, they would look at me like I was mad. But that's what happened, not because anyone in a power position cared about the plight of people under the Czar, but to simply weaken Russia during one of the biggest threats to Europe. Russia got left with a Trojan horse system that was responsible for.....killing tens of millions of Russians, Ingrians, Ukrainians, and other ethnic peoples of the Eurasian sphere, for no good reason at all. Many of those people were intelligent, professionals, doctors, professors, scientists, researchers, historians, merchants, and people of culture and enlightenment. They were systematically eliminated as a threat to the dumb peasant revolution. Wake up man. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:28:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? The Soviet Union failed because it was built on a really bad political-economic-social model from an exiled apostate agitator who never worked a day in his life. This system was chosen by the Germans when they financed Lenin to take over the work several other revolutionary groups had done before October, 1917, so that the Germans could get the Czarist Army out of Europe during the Great War. The British used a similar strategy with the Saudi tribes, aligned under the work of T.E. Laurence, so they could attack the Ottoman-Turks in their strategic rear, to divert them from Europe. If I asked a Russian what they thought about an unemployed German dissident agitator living in rat-infested slums in Eastern London, devising their political-economic-social model, would they support such a plan, they would look at me like I was mad. But that's what happened, not because anyone in a power position cared about the plight of people under the Czar, but to simply weaken Russia during one of the biggest threats to Europe. Russia got left with a Trojan horse system that was responsible for.....killing tens of millions of Russians, Ingrians, Ukrainians, and other ethnic peoples of the Eurasian sphere, for no good reason at all. Many of those people were intelligent, professionals, doctors, professors, scientists, researchers, historians, merchants, and people of culture and enlightenment. They were systematically eliminated as a threat to the dumb peasant revolution. Wake up man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is the face of an enemy sypathizer folks. Lets put it this way: What won the Cold War wasn't the fighter jets and nukes, it was convincing the Soviets that the US way of life was better, that US was their friend. So Russians voluntarily left half of Europe and dismantled their empire. All US gave them in return was humiliation and aggression. The definition of insanity is repeating the same failed thing again and again. The definition of total insanity is switching from a policy that worked to a policy that failed. Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? The Soviet Union failed because it was built on a really bad political-economic-social model from an exiled apostate agitator who never worked a day in his life. This system was chosen by the Germans when they financed Lenin to take over the work several other revolutionary groups had done before October, 1917, so that the Germans could get the Czarist Army out of Europe during the Great War. The British used a similar strategy with the Saudi tribes, aligned under the work of T.E. Laurence, so they could attack the Ottoman-Turks in their strategic rear, to divert them from Europe. If I asked a Russian what they thought about an unemployed German dissident agitator living in rat-infested slums in Eastern London, devising their political-economic-social model, would they support such a plan, they would look at me like I was mad. But that's what happened, not because anyone in a power position cared about the plight of people under the Czar, but to simply weaken Russia during one of the biggest threats to Europe. Russia got left with a Trojan horse system that was responsible for.....killing tens of millions of Russians, Ingrians, Ukrainians, and other ethnic peoples of the Eurasian sphere, for no good reason at all. Many of those people were intelligent, professionals, doctors, professors, scientists, researchers, historians, merchants, and people of culture and enlightenment. They were systematically eliminated as a threat to the dumb peasant revolution. Wake up man. 
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:28:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
En Los Estados Unidos la personas desde Sudamerica vive aqui sin papeles. Hablan Espanol. No se puede leer sobre él en Internet, lo que tienes que ver por ti mismo. Yo vivo en una casa de habla Inglés . Tengo que aprender español para función en público. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Name another country where the primary language of the majority of the population has no status? Easy - The USA. Over 50% of the US population speaks a language other than English? Please, tell me more. En Los Estados Unidos la personas desde Sudamerica vive aqui sin papeles. Hablan Espanol. No se puede leer sobre él en Internet, lo que tienes que ver por ti mismo. Yo vivo en una casa de habla Inglés . Tengo que aprender español para función en público. Da da. I know, I've lived in South FL for a few years. Now imagine this: 1. US faces another Great Depression and fractures 2. Florida gets taken over by hispanics, with extensive help from China and North Korea, who spend say 500 billion dollars for various "youth training" and "political reeducation" programs 3. Said programs seem to produce only propaganda talking about the horrible human suffering caused by "American discrimination of Hispanics, genocide of Indians" and ultranationalist thugs believing it 4. Spanish is the only state language (i.e. one has to speak spanish to work in any government or service job), all road signs etc. are spanish, all movies have to have spanish dubs, 23 years later most pre-college education is available only in Spanish. In North FL, where whites are the vast majority, situation is somewhat better 5. Marco Rubio (or whoever, basically a consensus figure between whites and hispanics) decides to postpone an agreement slated to merge Florida with Cuba and close off the border with US, essentially killing off all remaining industry and turning Florida into a banana republic |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:29:07 PM EDT
[#16]
(cont'd)
6. He is overthrown in riots that are pitched as a "popular revolt" by Chinese and Russian propaganda but in reality 80% of those killed in the fighting turn out to be hispanic extremists trained by the same North Korean NGOs 7. The coup government moves to ban official use of English in the North as well, rapidly passes a bunch of reforms to move away from US and closer to Cuba and North Korea. White politicians in the legislature are either attacked by mobs, imprisoned/stripped of their status, or sell out. 8. Popular protests by whites against this turn of events are met by mob violence. In Orlando, a crowd of violent hispanic extremists attacks a white pro-democracy rally, chases them in a building and burns 40 people alive. In Tampa, a shootout between white and hispanic cops at the local police station on Independence Day ends with hispanic paramilitaries being called in. They clash with unarmed people out celebrating, and shoot about a dozen 9. Tallahassee immediately organizes a referendum to secede. It is protected by local SWAT teams, Floridian troops, and US troops that still "rent" the Eglin AFB. Local "Florida Army" units overwhelmingly go over to the separatist side. Chinese and Russian media scream about "American aggression" and "voting at gunpoint". Anyone with half a brain laughs at that idiocy because 90% of the population there are white and wanted to rejoin US. 10. Armed resistance groups spring up in Jax, Talahassee, Ocala. The most charismatic leader is an Iraq/Afganistan veteran from Texas. This allows North Korean mass media to paint the entire resistance as "US agents posing as white Floridians", even though 80% of fighters are local, and the rest generally have relatives in FL. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:29:42 PM EDT
[#17]
11. As the coup government in Miami has no clue how to run the country or an army, their counter-insurgency campaign has to be bankrolled by multi-billion loans by the ICF (International Communist Fund), equipped by with North Korean gear and Chinese field rations flown in by planeloads, and (looks like) planned by Russian generals.
12. All world media scream about US aggression, while US media scream that there is no such thing as hispanic ethnicity and all hispanics in FL are paid agents of the Chinese Foreign Ministry. And did I mention this whole thing is painted as "US aggression" and US is facing economic troubles because it has trouble replacing Chinese imports? ... And then people who have been to both US and China are getting dogpiled in Chinese forums by people telling them "you are pushing American propaganda" and "there are no internal divisions in independent Florida, I don't care how many people there are denied civil rights because they speak English, what's going on there is American saboteurs attacking a glorious hispanic state for throwing off imperialist yoke". I could go on for a while about hispanics indiscriminately shelling Jax with SCUDs and such, but I believe I have made my point. PS. Some notes (which Ukraine event corresponds to what): 2. Google "Ukraine Soros" 6. Google "???????? ?????' or "heavenly hundred", basically find a list of those killed in the Maidan riots. Note almost all of them are extremists from West Ukraine. 7. Tsarev attacked, KPU banned, Rada senators mysteriously casting votes for the coup government when they are in other cities 8. Odessa May 2, Mariupol May 9 10. Strelkov 11. IMF loans are keeping the coup gov't afloat and free up money for the war |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:36:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
11. As the coup government in Miami has no clue how to run the country or an army, their counter-insurgency campaign has to be bankrolled by multi-billion loans by the ICF (International Communist Fund), equipped by with North Korean gear and Chinese field rations flown in by planeloads, and (looks like) planned by Russian generals. 12. All world media scream about US aggression, while US media scream that there is no such thing as hispanic ethnicity and all hispanics in FL are paid agents of the Chinese Foreign Ministry. And did I mention this whole thing is painted as "US aggression" and US is facing economic troubles because it has trouble replacing Chinese imports? ... And then people who have been to both US and China are getting dogpiled in Chinese forums by people telling them "you are pushing American propaganda" and "there are no internal divisions in independent Florida, I don't care how many people there are denied civil rights because they speak English, what's going on there is American saboteurs attacking a glorious hispanic state for throwing off imperialist yoke". I could go on for a while about hispanics indiscriminately shelling Jax with SCUDs and such, but I believe I have made my point. PS. Some notes (which Ukraine event corresponds to what): 2. Google "Ukraine Soros" 6. Google "???????? ?????' or "heavenly hundred", basically find a list of those killed in the Maidan riots. Note almost all of them are extremists from West Ukraine. 7. Tsarev attacked, KPU banned, Rada senators mysteriously casting votes for the coup government when they are in other cities 8. Odessa May 2, Mariupol May 9 10. Strelkov 11. IMF loans are keeping the coup gov't afloat and free up money for the war I missed the step where you shoot down civilian airliners. What number was that? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:47:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Where did the oil pipelines fit into the Florida-Cuba connection, and what money did North Korea use to finance this colossal abortion of a scenario?
Texas makes a better model if you are going to go that route, but it still doesn't work. Trying to see America through Russian eyes is almost as bad as trying to see Russia through American eyes. Neither works well at all. I have seen both, from both perspectives, and it's really impossible on a large scale to create a medium where Russians and Americans can understand each other. Not even the Russian "experts" in the State Department can get it right, and they include Foreign Services staff who have lived there, but within the confines of the US Embassy and related housing areas, so they don't really ever see Russia. Our only interests converge on Russia's borders, and we don't rely on many nations as part of the main trade routes that the US Foreign Policy polices. Our protection of Europe is based more on historical reasons than matters of trade, but that is changing with one nation in particular. I don't mean to be offensive to my Russian fellow men, but you guys need to wake up. I understand there is a childish mentality there, even among high ranking military and political leaders, but you have got to find a way to pull out of the 1800's in terms of societal development. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:50:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
(cont'd) 6. He is overthrown in riots that are pitched as a "popular revolt" by Chinese and Russian propaganda but in reality 80% of those killed in the fighting turn out to be hispanic extremists trained by the same North Korean NGOs 7. The coup government moves to ban official use of English in the North as well, rapidly passes a bunch of reforms to move away from US and closer to Cuba and North Korea. White politicians in the legislature are either attacked by mobs, imprisoned/stripped of their status, or sell out. 8. Popular protests by whites against this turn of events are met by mob violence. In Orlando, a crowd of violent hispanic extremists attacks a white pro-democracy rally, chases them in a building and burns 40 people alive. In Tampa, a shootout between white and hispanic cops at the local police station on Independence Day ends with hispanic paramilitaries being called in. They clash with unarmed people out celebrating, and shoot about a dozen 9. Tallahassee immediately organizes a referendum to secede. It is protected by local SWAT teams, Floridian troops, and US troops that still "rent" the Eglin AFB. Local "Florida Army" units overwhelmingly go over to the separatist side. Chinese and Russian media scream about "American aggression" and "voting at gunpoint". Anyone with half a brain laughs at that idiocy because 90% of the population there are white and wanted to rejoin US. 10. Armed resistance groups spring up in Jax, Talahassee, Ocala. The most charismatic leader is an Iraq/Afganistan veteran from Texas. This allows North Korean mass media to paint the entire resistance as "US agents posing as white Floridians", even though 80% of fighters are local, and the rest generally have relatives in FL. You lost me. 
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Posted: 10/22/2014 1:54:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You lost me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
(cont'd) 6. He is overthrown in riots that are pitched as a "popular revolt" by Chinese and Russian propaganda but in reality 80% of those killed in the fighting turn out to be hispanic extremists trained by the same North Korean NGOs 7. The coup government moves to ban official use of English in the North as well, rapidly passes a bunch of reforms to move away from US and closer to Cuba and North Korea. White politicians in the legislature are either attacked by mobs, imprisoned/stripped of their status, or sell out. 8. Popular protests by whites against this turn of events are met by mob violence. In Orlando, a crowd of violent hispanic extremists attacks a white pro-democracy rally, chases them in a building and burns 40 people alive. In Tampa, a shootout between white and hispanic cops at the local police station on Independence Day ends with hispanic paramilitaries being called in. They clash with unarmed people out celebrating, and shoot about a dozen 9. Tallahassee immediately organizes a referendum to secede. It is protected by local SWAT teams, Floridian troops, and US troops that still "rent" the Eglin AFB. Local "Florida Army" units overwhelmingly go over to the separatist side. Chinese and Russian media scream about "American aggression" and "voting at gunpoint". Anyone with half a brain laughs at that idiocy because 90% of the population there are white and wanted to rejoin US. 10. Armed resistance groups spring up in Jax, Talahassee, Ocala. The most charismatic leader is an Iraq/Afganistan veteran from Texas. This allows North Korean mass media to paint the entire resistance as "US agents posing as white Floridians", even though 80% of fighters are local, and the rest generally have relatives in FL. You lost me. I think he's describing how Russia invaded and took Crimea, how they are doing the same in Eastern Ukraine, and how they are threatening the same in Latvia, Estonia, Moldova, and Lithuania. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:03:30 PM EDT
[#22]
If I was a semi-intelligent Russian shill living abroad or in Russia, I would do everything to advance the cause of Russia as well. Think about it:
Ukraine is like a "check" move in chess from the Russian perspective, but they can't advertise it like that to their people, otherwise the people will get a sense for how vulnerable they are. That vulnerability isn't only in Ukraine either, but Ukraine carries the most gravity to Russian vulnerabilities. Here's why: Oil Pipelines 
Grain Production-Russia's primary food supply 
Russia's most important naval base-Crimea 
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:05:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think he's describing how Russia invaded and took Crimea, how they are doing the same in Eastern Ukraine, and how they are threatening the same in Latvia, Estonia, Moldova, and Lithuania. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
(cont'd) 6. He is overthrown in riots that are pitched as a "popular revolt" by Chinese and Russian propaganda but in reality 80% of those killed in the fighting turn out to be hispanic extremists trained by the same North Korean NGOs 7. The coup government moves to ban official use of English in the North as well, rapidly passes a bunch of reforms to move away from US and closer to Cuba and North Korea. White politicians in the legislature are either attacked by mobs, imprisoned/stripped of their status, or sell out. 8. Popular protests by whites against this turn of events are met by mob violence. In Orlando, a crowd of violent hispanic extremists attacks a white pro-democracy rally, chases them in a building and burns 40 people alive. In Tampa, a shootout between white and hispanic cops at the local police station on Independence Day ends with hispanic paramilitaries being called in. They clash with unarmed people out celebrating, and shoot about a dozen 9. Tallahassee immediately organizes a referendum to secede. It is protected by local SWAT teams, Floridian troops, and US troops that still "rent" the Eglin AFB. Local "Florida Army" units overwhelmingly go over to the separatist side. Chinese and Russian media scream about "American aggression" and "voting at gunpoint". Anyone with half a brain laughs at that idiocy because 90% of the population there are white and wanted to rejoin US. 10. Armed resistance groups spring up in Jax, Talahassee, Ocala. The most charismatic leader is an Iraq/Afganistan veteran from Texas. This allows North Korean mass media to paint the entire resistance as "US agents posing as white Floridians", even though 80% of fighters are local, and the rest generally have relatives in FL. You lost me. I think he's describing how Russia invaded and took Crimea, how they are doing the same in Eastern Ukraine, and how they are threatening the same in Latvia, Estonia, Moldova, and Lithuania. And I was enjoying the humor of his proposed success of a force of Hispanics led by NK NGOs. They'd be too busy self terminating by gorging on McD's until they had heartattacks. Seriously, everything in his proposed scenario makes less sense than any one of Obama's recent political speeches. "If you were starving, and had too many apples, and licked a knife, a potato wouldn't sting, ham, it smells like purple, then drank hydrochloric acid, kissed your sister's GF, but photosynthesis on her lips, checkhov's gun smells like bland. Conclusion: TOTAL NK VICTORY" |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:19:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And I was enjoying the humor of his proposed success of a force of Hispanics led by NK NGOs. They'd be too busy self terminating by gorging on McD's until they had heartattacks. Seriously, everything in his proposed scenario makes less sense than any one of Obama's recent political speeches. "If you were starving, and had too many apples, and licked a knife, a potato wouldn't sting, ham, it smells like purple, then drank hydrochloric acid, kissed your sister's GF, but photosynthesis on her lips, checkhov's gun smells like bland. Conclusion: TOTAL NK VICTORY" Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
(cont'd) 6. He is overthrown in riots that are pitched as a "popular revolt" by Chinese and Russian propaganda but in reality 80% of those killed in the fighting turn out to be hispanic extremists trained by the same North Korean NGOs 7. The coup government moves to ban official use of English in the North as well, rapidly passes a bunch of reforms to move away from US and closer to Cuba and North Korea. White politicians in the legislature are either attacked by mobs, imprisoned/stripped of their status, or sell out. 8. Popular protests by whites against this turn of events are met by mob violence. In Orlando, a crowd of violent hispanic extremists attacks a white pro-democracy rally, chases them in a building and burns 40 people alive. In Tampa, a shootout between white and hispanic cops at the local police station on Independence Day ends with hispanic paramilitaries being called in. They clash with unarmed people out celebrating, and shoot about a dozen 9. Tallahassee immediately organizes a referendum to secede. It is protected by local SWAT teams, Floridian troops, and US troops that still "rent" the Eglin AFB. Local "Florida Army" units overwhelmingly go over to the separatist side. Chinese and Russian media scream about "American aggression" and "voting at gunpoint". Anyone with half a brain laughs at that idiocy because 90% of the population there are white and wanted to rejoin US. 10. Armed resistance groups spring up in Jax, Talahassee, Ocala. The most charismatic leader is an Iraq/Afganistan veteran from Texas. This allows North Korean mass media to paint the entire resistance as "US agents posing as white Floridians", even though 80% of fighters are local, and the rest generally have relatives in FL. You lost me. I think he's describing how Russia invaded and took Crimea, how they are doing the same in Eastern Ukraine, and how they are threatening the same in Latvia, Estonia, Moldova, and Lithuania. And I was enjoying the humor of his proposed success of a force of Hispanics led by NK NGOs. They'd be too busy self terminating by gorging on McD's until they had heartattacks. Seriously, everything in his proposed scenario makes less sense than any one of Obama's recent political speeches. "If you were starving, and had too many apples, and licked a knife, a potato wouldn't sting, ham, it smells like purple, then drank hydrochloric acid, kissed your sister's GF, but photosynthesis on her lips, checkhov's gun smells like bland. Conclusion: TOTAL NK VICTORY" Your egg salad has too much Wednesday! |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:24:24 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your egg salad has too much Wednesday! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
(cont'd) 6. He is overthrown in riots that are pitched as a "popular revolt" by Chinese and Russian propaganda but in reality 80% of those killed in the fighting turn out to be hispanic extremists trained by the same North Korean NGOs 7. The coup government moves to ban official use of English in the North as well, rapidly passes a bunch of reforms to move away from US and closer to Cuba and North Korea. White politicians in the legislature are either attacked by mobs, imprisoned/stripped of their status, or sell out. 8. Popular protests by whites against this turn of events are met by mob violence. In Orlando, a crowd of violent hispanic extremists attacks a white pro-democracy rally, chases them in a building and burns 40 people alive. In Tampa, a shootout between white and hispanic cops at the local police station on Independence Day ends with hispanic paramilitaries being called in. They clash with unarmed people out celebrating, and shoot about a dozen 9. Tallahassee immediately organizes a referendum to secede. It is protected by local SWAT teams, Floridian troops, and US troops that still "rent" the Eglin AFB. Local "Florida Army" units overwhelmingly go over to the separatist side. Chinese and Russian media scream about "American aggression" and "voting at gunpoint". Anyone with half a brain laughs at that idiocy because 90% of the population there are white and wanted to rejoin US. 10. Armed resistance groups spring up in Jax, Talahassee, Ocala. The most charismatic leader is an Iraq/Afganistan veteran from Texas. This allows North Korean mass media to paint the entire resistance as "US agents posing as white Floridians", even though 80% of fighters are local, and the rest generally have relatives in FL. You lost me. I think he's describing how Russia invaded and took Crimea, how they are doing the same in Eastern Ukraine, and how they are threatening the same in Latvia, Estonia, Moldova, and Lithuania. And I was enjoying the humor of his proposed success of a force of Hispanics led by NK NGOs. They'd be too busy self terminating by gorging on McD's until they had heartattacks. Seriously, everything in his proposed scenario makes less sense than any one of Obama's recent political speeches. "If you were starving, and had too many apples, and licked a knife, a potato wouldn't sting, ham, it smells like purple, then drank hydrochloric acid, kissed your sister's GF, but photosynthesis on her lips, checkhov's gun smells like bland. Conclusion: TOTAL NK VICTORY" Your egg salad has too much Wednesday! Does not! Green sounds amazing.
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:50:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? Latvia and Lithuania I think. Cause of a bunch of reasons AFAIK - both legitimate grievances and not. Why do you ask? The Soviet Union failed because it was built on a really bad political-economic-social model .....killing tens of millions of Russians, Ingrians, Ukrainians, and other ethnic peoples of the Eurasian sphere, for no good reason at all.
Many of those people were intelligent, professionals, doctors, professors, scientists, researchers, historians, merchants, and people of culture and enlightenment. They were systematically eliminated as a threat to the dumb peasant revolution. Wake up man. Partly true (although tens of millions of Ingrians? really? There were only like 60k of them, and they were just resettled), but there was a very good reason. Russia's government system was archaic, it sucked and needed a change. The revolution that eventually swept away all those people of enlightenment was their fault, and moreover, initially their own doing. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 2:53:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Latvia and Lithuania I think. Cause of a bunch of reasons AFAIK - both legitimate grievances and not. Why do you ask? Partly true (although tens of millions of Ingrians? really? There were only like 60k of them, and they were just resettled), but there was a very good reason. Russia's government system was archaic, it sucked and needed a change. The revolution that eventually swept away all those people of enlightenment was their fault, and moreover, initially their own doing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? Latvia and Lithuania I think. Cause of a bunch of reasons AFAIK - both legitimate grievances and not. Why do you ask? The Soviet Union failed because it was built on a really bad political-economic-social model .....killing tens of millions of Russians, Ingrians, Ukrainians, and other ethnic peoples of the Eurasian sphere, for no good reason at all.
Many of those people were intelligent, professionals, doctors, professors, scientists, researchers, historians, merchants, and people of culture and enlightenment. They were systematically eliminated as a threat to the dumb peasant revolution. Wake up man. Partly true (although tens of millions of Ingrians? really? There were only like 60k of them, and they were just resettled), but there was a very good reason. Russia's government system was archaic, it sucked and needed a change. The revolution that eventually swept away all those people of enlightenment was their fault, and moreover, initially their own doing. Dude, you are one twisted mother fucker if you can justify the mass murder of millions like that. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:25:31 PM EDT
[#28]
I love this thread
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Posted: 10/22/2014 3:29:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Latvia and Lithuania I think. Cause of a bunch of reasons AFAIK - both legitimate grievances and not. Why do you ask? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? Latvia and Lithuania I think. Cause of a bunch of reasons AFAIK - both legitimate grievances and not. Why do you ask? What would be an "illegitimate" reason for Latvia and/or Lithuania to become independent from the Soviet Union? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 4:14:19 PM EDT
[#30]
The news on Russian troop involvement that I promised yesterday. This is coming from an alternative media source, but a VERY well-known and respectable one. Voice of Sevastopol is probably still the biggest "rebel" media presence; they are pro-D/LPR but frequently blame Putin/RF for not providing enough aid or not having the political will to back them up.
There has been a lot of internal squabbling within the pro-rebel groups of late, so I'm not totally sure who is legit anymore, but this source has been correct 80% of time in the past (far more often than CNN or RT, BTW), so I'd say the information is likely legit. Here is the original: http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1854320.html I won't bother translating the whole giant thing, but key points are as follows: 1. There was some form of direct, at least company-level Russian involvement in August. Whether that was Russian troops "on leave" reorganized as "rebel" units, or straight-up Russian units, is semantics at this point. 2. Their task was to decisively defeat the (already severely depleted and demoralized) Kiev gov't battlegroups bogged down south of Donetsk (I'd assume by Lugansk as well). They accomplished this almost exclusively at long range, using artillery (and presumably tanks, etc) and extensive recon, which explains low Russian losses. Judging from the number of Kiev forces they fought directly (several thousand), and a video of one of such "rebel" strike groups that surfaced some time ago (looked to be a mechanized company with a lot of additional assets) I'd estimate the total Russian force to be a few company-battalion level tactical groups. The overall aim seems to have been to force Kiev into negotiations. Even though Kiev forces on the south flank were wiped out or fled, offensive was halted for political reasons and to avoid exposing Russian involvement. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 4:22:01 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The news on Russian troop involvement that I promised yesterday. This is coming from an alternative media source, but a VERY well-known and respectable one. Voice of Sevastopol is probably still the biggest "rebel" media presence; they are pro-D/LPR but frequently blame Putin/RF for not providing enough aid or not having the political will to back them up. There has been a lot of internal squabbling within the pro-rebel groups of late, so I'm not totally sure who is legit anymore, but this source has been correct 80% of time in the past (far more often than CNN or RT, BTW), so I'd say the information is likely legit. Here is the original: http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1854320.html I won't bother translating the whole giant thing, but key points are as follows: 1. There was some form of direct, at least company-level Russian involvement in August. Whether that was Russian troops "on leave" reorganized as "rebel" units, or straight-up Russian units, is semantics at this point. 2. Their task was to decisively defeat the (already severely depleted and demoralized) Kiev gov't battlegroups bogged down south of Donetsk (I'd assume by Lugansk as well). They accomplished this almost exclusively at long range, using artillery (and presumably tanks, etc) and extensive recon, which explains low Russian losses. Judging from the number of Kiev forces they fought directly (several thousand), and a video of one of such "rebel" strike groups that surfaced some time ago (looked to be a mechanized company with a lot of additional assets) I'd estimate the total Russian force to be a few company-battalion level tactical groups. The overall aim seems to have been to force Kiev into negotiations. Even though Kiev forces on the south flank were wiped out or fled, offensive was halted for political reasons and to avoid exposing Russian involvement. Weasel words and lies? That's it? |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 4:23:13 PM EDT
[#32]
(and before anyone jumps on me for denying this beforehand, this surfaced literally yesterday)
The rest of the colonelcassad article concerns the organization and fighting qualities of the sides. Basically, Ukrainian army has some motivated soldiers among the SF, paratroopers, and the nationalist paramilitaries, but the bulk are conscripts that were drafted for 45 days... 4 months ago, and are understandably demoralized (the August defeat, in part, was due to 700 conscripts saying "F this" when left with AKs and school buses against artillery and tanks, and simply going home). Also, all of the forces are inadequately trained, under-equipped, and hilariously badly commanded both on tactical and strategic levels. OTOH the rebels are motivated and fairly competent tactically, but are largely local self-defense units that are mostly incapable of anything other than stubbornly defending their hometown. Plus, they exist through some form of taxation/extortion, which hinders any sort of unification attempts as that would mean the funds and supply would need to be redistributed. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 4:31:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
(and before anyone jumps on me for denying this beforehand, this surfaced literally yesterday) The rest of the colonelcassad article concerns the organization and fighting qualities of the sides. Basically, Ukrainian army has some motivated soldiers among the SF, paratroopers, and the nationalist paramilitaries, but the bulk are conscripts that were drafted for 45 days... 4 months ago, and are understandably demoralized (the August defeat, in part, was due to 700 conscripts saying "F this" when left with AKs and school buses against artillery and tanks, and simply going home). Also, all of the forces are inadequately trained, under-equipped, and hilariously badly commanded both on tactical and strategic levels. OTOH the rebels are motivated and fairly competent tactically, but are largely local self-defense units that are mostly incapable of anything other than stubbornly defending their hometown. Plus, they exist through some form of taxation/extortion, which hinders any sort of unification attempts as that would mean the funds and supply would need to be redistributed. Bullshit, they exist through Russian funding and equipment. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 4:35:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
(and before anyone jumps on me for denying this beforehand, this surfaced literally yesterday) The rest of the colonelcassad article concerns the organization and fighting qualities of the sides. Basically, Ukrainian army has some motivated soldiers among the SF, paratroopers, and the nationalist paramilitaries, but the bulk are conscripts that were drafted for 45 days... 4 months ago, and are understandably demoralized (the August defeat, in part, was due to 700 conscripts saying "F this" when left with AKs and school buses against artillery and tanks, and simply going home). Also, all of the forces are inadequately trained, under-equipped, and hilariously badly commanded both on tactical and strategic levels. OTOH the rebels are motivated and fairly competent tactically, but are largely local self-defense units that are mostly incapable of anything other than stubbornly defending their hometown. Plus, they exist through some form of taxation/extortion, which hinders any sort of unification attempts as that would mean the funds and supply would need to be redistributed. Ukraine was winning. The Separatists could not stand up to combined arms units, even with the flood of Russian equipment, armor, artillery, SPETsNAZ and GRU and advisors. Special Forces aren't good at combined arms maneuver warfare. The Separatists were at risk of losing their supply lines that connected them to Rostov. So Russia sent in their Army. Not just a few companies, but multiple battalions with enablers. Ultimately, the piggish Russian drunks and Cossacks that are holding the people of Donbass hostage will lose. Russia will abandon them, because the entire adventure has failed, and it has become too expensive, given Russia's failing economy. And eventually, Putin will have to tell something to the mothers of the thousands of troops who were wounded or killed. The lie of them being on leave won't cut it. |
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Posted: 10/22/2014 8:16:29 PM EDT
[#35]
OP, do you have a point to make here besides the one Putin is paying you for?
Slava Ukrayini! |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 12:56:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:It's likely that the votes were manipulated by the government. With all the secret police esque shit, and censorship shenanigans, I don't know how anybody could put it past them. The vote would be meaningful now, because the people who'd have been manipulating election results would be out of power. And even if the US State Dept. was involved, why is that a bad thing? Anything that removes a country from the influence of the Russian government is a good thing, in my eyes. The Russian people might not be so bad. That I'm perfectly willing to believe. But the government? Full of thugs. You're halfway right. 1. You are right to think that the old government was bad. You're wrong to think the new government is any better. For one, it's largely run by the very same people, they just changed the figurehead; the only new people who came in are nationalist extremists, and those guys are basically abhorrent. I.e. Lyasko, the man who came in third in the presidential election with 8% of the vote, has his goons capture suspected "separatists" and does forced interrogations on camera. Legal justification? None. Basically, the old guard were thieves, the new ones are robbers and murderers. 2. As for removing the country from Russian sphere of influence. For Ukraine itself, it obviously brought ruin; and would have even without the civil war, simply because it's way too tightly integrated. That's like establishing high customs duties of the border of Detroit and acting surprised when local industry dies off. For the US, creating Somalia on Russia's porch it's a short-term geopolitical victory, but I'm not so sure about the long term. Russians are already extremely pissed, and Ukrainians/Europeans are rapidly getting upset since they realized they're been merely used as a stick to poke the bear with... A stick he rather severely bit, by the way. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 3:31:46 PM EDT
[#37]
Please. The Somolia at Russia's doorstep is the sole creation of Russia. Russia sent in waves of SPETsNAZ, GRU and saboteurs, who paid local and imported Russian thugs to wreak mayhem and destabilize South and East Ukraine. This is 100% Russia's own doing. If you do not agree, it is either because you are a lying propagandist or a weak minded regurgitator of the same propaganda.
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Posted: 10/24/2014 4:16:53 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryYou DO realize that RT is fully funded by the Russian government with the sole purpose of pushing Russian State Propaganda? As much as there is a political bias coming from CNN, that is a far cry from being a Government funded, official arm of the Government. Quote HistoryQuoted: You DO realize that RT is fully funded by the Russian government with the sole purpose of pushing Russian State Propaganda? As much as there is a political bias coming from CNN, that is a far cry from being a Government funded, official arm of the Government. So Russia had a couple years to build a propaganda machine and the US had a century, big deal. Sure, US one exists as a few "private" branches that still rigidly adhere to the party line. Same thing as elections - Russia has less window dressing with only one real candidate, whereas US puts out two that only disagree on trivial crap like gay marriage - to keep the sheeple entertained. Who cares if in their core both systems are the same? As for why I blame Obama gov't - well, they threw the first stone. Or rather, they eagerly supported and nurtured the civil unrest (the actual "first stone" seems to have been a power play by a couple local oligarchs against Yanukovich) Yes, THAT is exactly what one hears coming from RT and the other Russian State media outlets. The problem isn't that both sides lie. The problem is that both sides only tell a small part of the truth that is beneficial to them. State Dept backed the Westerners AND RF backed the Easterners. Neither side is innocent like they claim, but they're damn right about the other side being guilty. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 5:16:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryThe Chinese are not the US. They are scrambling for resources in vain attempts to meet a demand they can never meet.
The Israeli's are not the US. They have a totally different geopolitical set of challenges. Russia is not the US, and also has a serious set of geopolitical challenges, none of them resembling anything the US has. So why again should the US take notes from these 3 nations on how to deal with economic warfare (Iraq) and terrorism? If the Ukraine conspired with other nations to no longer accept the Russian Ruble, what would Russia do, especially if it benefited the replacement currency that Ukraine chose? Quote HistoryThe Chinese are not the US. They are scrambling for resources in vain attempts to meet a demand they can never meet.
The Israeli's are not the US. They have a totally different geopolitical set of challenges. Russia is not the US, and also has a serious set of geopolitical challenges, none of them resembling anything the US has. So why again should the US take notes from these 3 nations on how to deal with economic warfare (Iraq) and terrorism? If the Ukraine conspired with other nations to no longer accept the Russian Ruble, what would Russia do, especially if it benefited the replacement currency that Ukraine chose? Nothing, I suspect. What does Russia care? It's not running a worldwide Ponzi scheme with a petroruble. If Tibet and Vietnam started harboring training camps for insurgents who were targeting China, what would China do? Err... Post guards? SK is successfully blocking NK saboteurs, for chrissakes. Your understanding of the world is too colored by your regional orientation, and a diet of disinformation in both Eurasia and Western media. Maybe so. That's why I'm talking to you, to see the other viewpoint. Your attempts to veil yourself as anti-Russian didn't make it ... let the cat out of the bag that you blame the US for the problems in the region, military industrial complex, etc. It's getting old really. Every time you guys pull this, it affirms the profound conclusion I realized when looking at Moscow:
"These poor folks are never going to recover from what the Bolsheviks did here almost a century ago." Half-true. I did not veil myself as anti-Russian, nor did I make a secret of anything (otherwise I would have just used a different alias, duh). I'll write a bit more on the overall geopolitics, and try to frame the problem more clearly, so we can discuss it. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 6:05:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where did the oil pipelines fit into the Florida-Cuba connection, and what money did North Korea use to finance this colossal abortion of a scenario? Texas makes a better model if you are going to go that route, but it still doesn't work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where did the oil pipelines fit into the Florida-Cuba connection, and what money did North Korea use to finance this colossal abortion of a scenario? Texas makes a better model if you are going to go that route, but it still doesn't work. Yah yah, of course it's not an exact match. We could talk about the French speakers oppressing the English speakers in Canada, the latter then trying to join the US, etc. The whole point is to show that the situation in Ukraine ISN'T what idiotic Western coverage paints it to be - a unified, democratic, progressive state trying to break free from RF's yoke. The situation is more similar to 1936 Spain than 1776 USA (and even then there were quite a few royalists AFAIK?). [this part will go into a separate post] I don't mean to be offensive to my Russian fellow men, but you guys need to wake up. I understand there is a childish mentality there, even among high ranking military and political leaders, but you have got to find a way to pull out of the 1800's in terms of societal development. What exactly do you mean? I haven't seen Russian society from the inside for a loong time, so I may not be the best person to discuss its flaws, though. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 6:08:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please. The Somolia at Russia's doorstep is the sole creation of Russia. Russia sent in waves of SPETsNAZ, GRU and saboteurs, who paid local and imported Russian thugs to wreak mayhem and destabilize South and East Ukraine. This is 100% Russia's own doing. If you do not agree, it is either because you are a lying propagandist or a weak minded regurgitator of the same propaganda. Please tell me, the country being split along the same freaking lines in 1918, 1941-47, and countless times since 1991 is also Putin's fault? Yes, you can count everyone who wants cooperation with Russia among Putin's puppets or Soviet slaves, like Ukraine's "democratic" new government does... But then you're still stuck with the conclusion that they are half the country. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 6:29:19 PM EDT
[#42]
So you point an accusing finger at the current regime of Ukraine, condemning them for being the same as the old regime...
...even though the old regime was a puppet of Putin, whom you defend. Putin, who was KGB in the USSR. And you claim that Russia is new the game of propaganda; only at for a mere few years. 
 . Oh, you.
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Posted: 10/24/2014 6:31:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Please tell me, the country being split along the same freaking lines in 1918, 1941-47, and countless times since 1991 is also Putin's fault? Yes, you can count everyone who wants cooperation with Russia among Putin's puppets or Soviet slaves, like Ukraine's "democratic" new government does... But then you're still stuck with the conclusion that they are half the country. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Please. The Somolia at Russia's doorstep is the sole creation of Russia. Russia sent in waves of SPETsNAZ, GRU and saboteurs, who paid local and imported Russian thugs to wreak mayhem and destabilize South and East Ukraine. This is 100% Russia's own doing. If you do not agree, it is either because you are a lying propagandist or a weak minded regurgitator of the same propaganda. Please tell me, the country being split along the same freaking lines in 1918, 1941-47, and countless times since 1991 is also Putin's fault? Yes, you can count everyone who wants cooperation with Russia among Putin's puppets or Soviet slaves, like Ukraine's "democratic" new government does... But then you're still stuck with the conclusion that they are half the country. You aren't fooling anyone. What I stated is true, and you know it. You address none of it, and you then lamely attempt to misdirect and obfuscate. You aren't very good at this, are you? |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 6:35:44 PM EDT
[#44]
14'ers
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:36:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I was a semi-intelligent Russian shill living abroad or in Russia, I would do everything to advance the cause of Russia as well. Think about it: Ukraine is like a "check" move in chess from the Russian perspective, but they can't advertise it like that to their people, otherwise the people will get a sense for how vulnerable they are. That vulnerability isn't only in Ukraine either, but Ukraine carries the most gravity to Russian vulnerabilities. Here's why You got the overall idea right, but you're wrong about the grain. And with the markets getting more global, gas export problems mainly screw over Ukraine and the EU, not so much Russia (not in the long run, anyway). I think the bigger problem for Russia is simply a rabidly Russophobic regime on their doorstep, rather then the issues you mention specifically. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:40:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryDude, you are one twisted mother fucker if you can justify the mass murder of millions like that. Quote HistoryQuoted:Russia's government system was archaic, it sucked and needed a change. The revolution that eventually swept away all those people of enlightenment was their fault, and moreover, initially their own doing. Dude, you are one twisted mother fucker if you can justify the mass murder of millions like that. I'm not "justifying" anything. I'm simply pointing out that the downfall of tsarizm was not orchestrated by Lenin or the bolsheviks, and their subsequent rise to power is largely due to capitalist-liberal Kerensky gov't dropping the ball. You can read the same on Wikipedia or any history textbook. Blaming the collapse of the tzarist system on Lenin is like blaming the French Revolution on Napoleon. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:43:03 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What would be an "illegitimate" reason for Latvia and/or Lithuania to become independent from the Soviet Union? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Guess who was the first nation to demand exit from the USSR? And the second? Why? Latvia and Lithuania I think. Cause of a bunch of reasons AFAIK - both legitimate grievances and not. Why do you ask? What would be an "illegitimate" reason for Latvia and/or Lithuania to become independent from the Soviet Union? The desire to establish an apartheid regime? |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 8:01:18 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ukraine was winning. ... And eventually, Putin will have to tell something to the mothers of the thousands of troops who were wounded or killed. The lie of them being on leave won't cut it. Any evidence? Let's review Kiev's forces "winning": - Slavyansk siege. Spent 3 months trying to encircle the town while outnumbering the defenders 1:5 in men and 1:100 in armor and artillery. In the end, sustained much higher losses than the rebels and let them slip away largely unscathed. - Attempt to encircle entire territory of the rebel republics along the border. Rebel platoon takes strategic hill of Saur-Mogila and directs artillery fire at anything trying to supply the offensive. Without supply and without permission to withdraw, 4 brigades and assorted other units run out of ammo/fuel and are ultimately destroyed (South Cauldron #1). - Reevaluation of capabilities, repeated attempts to cut off just the DPR. Brigade-level armored tactical groups unable to defeat local militia companies holding towns of Shakhtersk and Krasy Luch. Ended with the rebels retaking Saur-Mogila, encircling the attacking forces again (South Cauldron #2). - Reevaluation of capabilities, repeated attempts to cut off just Donetsk and Lugansk. Because, you know, being unable to defeat the rebels in the open field near the border, and in the small towns, means attacking large city conglomerations is totally gonna work . The combined might of the entire southern front of the UAF and 4 paramilitary battalions, focused to a narrow point, couldn't even make it past Ilovaysk and its local defense unit of 107 men (yeah, they were reinforced after a week or so, but by even smaller rebel units).
=== And this here is the point where Russia intervened and put an end to the whole pathetic mess (Ilovaysk Cauldron). As far as we can guess, their casualties in doing so were in the 20-50 range. |
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Posted: 10/24/2014 8:33:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Not reading whole thread, someone just tell me if this is a good guy or pro-Ukrainian nazi scum?
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Posted: 10/24/2014 9:06:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Russians are already extremely pissed, and Ukrainians/Europeans are rapidly getting upset since they realized they're been merely used as a stick to poke the bear with... A stick he rather severely bit, by the way. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Russians are already extremely pissed, and Ukrainians/Europeans are rapidly getting upset since they realized they're been merely used as a stick to poke the bear with... A stick he rather severely bit, by the way. Care to explain more about these 'Europeans' you keep refering to? From where I'm standing Russia isn't making any friends. Quoted:
Not reading whole thread, someone just tell me if this is a good guy or pro-Ukrainian nazi scum? As usual, I can only admire the level of professionalism you bring to the table. Particularly evident in a thread like this. |
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