exactly what I meant......speaking for myself...It is a daily struggle...I want to follow the path the  Christ set down for me...and I still find myself wandering off that path.

So you cannot say that you have eternal life.

Wrong.

There is a reason the epistles were written to the church and there is a reason that the security of the believer is explained time and time again.

Subscribers to Everyone is a True Scotsman fallacy don't like the fact that everyone is not a true Scotsman.

actually
in a way it does, if you can lose salvation then the cross was not enough but in reality it is if saved always saved

Right.



Whenever there is an ambiguity, you go to the most authoritative voice on the subject. In the Bible, that is the words of Jesus. He clearly explains what happens (they lose the Word), how it happens (the cares of this world, persecution, etc...), and the result, in an easy to understand parable whose metaphor fits in perfectly with his other parables of the fig tree and the vine. The words in the epistles should be filtered through this view, and when this is done the image is quite clear.



What more do you want?



 

I'll beat this dead horse one last time:


If someone who trusts Jesus Christ as their Saviour can end up in hell, then Jesus didn't save them, did He?

If you can lose it, but you end up in heaven, then YOU kept it, while the other guy who trusted Jesus ends up in hell because HE didn't keep it.

That false doctrine makes salvation by MERIT instead of grace.

If it's grace, then they both end up in heaven.

Otherwise, it's works - no ifs, ands or buts.

The false doctrine of "loss of salvation" is MAN centered.  MAN either keeps it, or loses it.

Jesus is not the deciding factor.

Inescapable.

If the false doctrine was true, then here is the talk in heaven tonight:  "Boy, we kept it didn't we!  Those guys in hell, they either never trusted Jesus, or they trusted Him, but didn't keep their salvation.  But we did and that's why we're here!"

With the true doctrine of eternal security for those who fully trusted in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ:  "Thank you Lord, for saving my soul!  Thank you for not imputing my sins to me!  Thank you for the gift of YOUR righteousness.  Thank you for everlasting life!  Thank you that those who trust you are not condemned!  Thank you Lord, for shedding your precious blood which cleansed us from ALL sin!"

Big difference.

I'll stick with Jesus.  Jesus said to "search the scriptures" -  the ENTIRE Bible,  ALL of which is the word of God.

You're viewing Salvation as an end, as if that can be attained during life. It cannot. Remember, you're still in the courtship phase. If Jesus doesn't like you, he isn't going to marry you, and as long as you're still alive, you can lose the Word and end up a castaway. If you stumble, you're going to lose the race. If you're the fig tree that doesn't bear fruit, you're getting tossed into the fire. If you aren't prepared when the Bridegroom arrives, you're not going to the wedding. I know you want to feel secure in the here and now, but Paul wasn't, and you (and I) are less than him.



 

"go forth and sin no more."   - Jesus Christ

You still have to walk the walk....

You aren't trusting Jesus, my friend.  Salvation CAN be had, right now, if you trust Him.

But if you continue to think you can earn it, you will never have it, because salvation cannot be earned.  It is a GIFT that was bought and paid for, on the cross, by the Lord Jesus Christ - God manifest in the flesh.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

1 John 5
10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


"Are saved." "Ye have eternal life."  Present tense.

Done deal.

So you never sin, right?

Not a done deal until you're dead. There are at least a dozen parables/metaphors describing this. You ignore them all?



1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.



"if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you"



Which is exactly what I posted when I described the parable of the sower. These that keep the Word and bear works are chosen. Those who don't keep it in memory are cast into the fire.



 

As I like to call it, Catholic-Lite.

I guess alzheimer's suffers lose it.

You really have no understanding of salvation.

You point to parables that you obviously don't understand, and completely disregard clear statements that tell believers explicitly that they can KNOW that they have eternal life.

All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  A tax cheat ends up in the same place as a Hitler.  Why?  Because they did not take the free gift of Jesus's death on a cross as the payment for their sins.

The Jews, when wondering in the desert for 40 years, they were set upon by serpents whose bite killed them.  It was for some disobedience or other I forget at the moment.  Moses interceded and God instructed him to fashion a brass serpent and stick it up on a pole and walk around the camp with it.  Anyone that looked up at the serpent on the pole was instantly healed and lived.  All they had to do was look up at it.  This brass serpent was placed in the Arc of the Covenant alongside the Tablet(s) with the Ten Commandments. It was a big deal.

Right this very moment there are billions of people who are being told to look to Jesus lifted up on the cross and they will live.  And still they quibble and look at their feet, look at their neighbor, point some fingers, do absolutely everything but look up at Jesus.  When Judgement Day comes, God's got nothing to apologize for.

The same scripture in 1Cor you posted contradicts your own position. So far you haven't tried to address a single statement such as that, or any of the parables I've brought up, or any of Paul's words on the idea.



 

You explained how you think you will MERIT salvation.  If you do not understand that salvation is totally unmerited, you can't begin to understand the Bible.

Of course, because that's what the Bible says, in the parts that you ignore. People of your beliefs HATE the book of James and you quote Paul almost exclusively.





It's a debate that has been going on for millennia.





 

You're being absurd.  I don't hate the book of James.  

Here is some James for you:

Chap 2: 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Understand that?  You are guilty.

Your "good works" aren't going to make you righteous.


And your other comment....

People like me quote Paul often?  Guess who God used to write the majority of the New Testament.

God used James to write how many books of the NT?

Stands to reason Christians will quote scripture that was penned by Paul more than scripture penned by James, now doesn't it.

Finally...

Debate?  There's no debate.  It was settled l-l-looong ago.  Cain tried it your way.  Abel trusted the grace of God and offered the blood of the lamb.  Cain approached God by his works and died in his sins, while Abel is declared righteous by God.

You would if you read it and tried to fit what it says into your doctrinal system. I doubt there's any danger of that happening.



 

The book of James provides no contradiction to the doctrine of eternal security.  Of course, a person who thinks he can earn his way to salvation isn't going to understand that due to his pride.  You should realize that thinking you can merit salvation is pure pride.  And nothing but pride.

Here in James is an explanation for that:
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

And another non-Paul reference:
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

In your pride of thinking you can merit salvation, you have God actively resisting you.

You don't stand a chance of understanding unless you repent.

Now, back to Paul:

Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Good works come AFTER salvation, not before.

Before salvation:

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.



Better repent of trusting self and turn to Jesus!

Trust Him FULLY and not only will he save you, He will keep you saved.

You are all wrong on a lot of the theology.  Once you are saved, the blood sacrifice of Jesus is atonement for your sin.  Hence you are SAVED from the penalty of that sin, which is eternity in hell.  That isn't an excuse for debauchery, however.  It isn't well defined, but there is a point where your continued sin is evidence of defiance and perhaps even evidence of an insincere conversion...which would mean you aren't saved.

It is also true the scripture says that belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation.  So, by definition, if that statement is true, then a non-belief in Jesus means you go to Hell.  Being a Jew doesn't mean you go to Hell, not believing in Jesus, regardless of your race or creed, causes you to go to Hell.

Your focus on being good to your neighbors is NOT the key to being saved.  Scripture is very clear on that.  Salvation is an unearned gift.  Your good deeds do NOT earn it for you.  

And your expectation that Christians should somehow be perfect is also misguided.  We should be better than our former self as evidence of our conversion, but we will never be perfect.  That's the thing about Christianity.  It recognizes that we are not perfect and offers a solution.  But to expect every one who claims to be a Christian to also be a saint is naive.  There are false converts and hypocrites sitting in synagogues and mosques and marching around in a circle out in the woods claiming to be witches.  So I am not sure why you would expect a church congregation, which is basically open to anyone to walk through the doors, to somehow be this homogenous group of universally sincere and great people.  In fact, if I found a church that looked like that, I'd assume it was full of liars.  A church will be full of people in all stages of development in terms of their spiritual life.

You need to get serious about actually learning the tenets of the religion you claim to be trying out.  As for belief, what is it that makes you think that God and his rules are supposed to conform to your sense of fairness and justice?  It's a very serious question.  It's very convenient and self-serving to decide that a "true" religion is one that looks like what you would do if you were God.  Think about how self-serving, and self-delusional, that would be.

If you study the faith and understand the doctrine and still don't believe, then you don't believe.  The eternal implications of that disbelief are significant, but if you don't believe you don't believe.  You can't fake it enough to get into Heaven.  But at this point I get the feeling that you have this inaccurate and preconceived notion of what Christianity is and then are offended that it's believers don't conform to your faulty understanding.  

And another thing to consider is how judgmental you seem to be about the people you are watching.  You seem awful comfortable deciding who you think is good and not so good from what I have to assume is fairly casual contact.  Another tenet that mature Christians will understand is that God sees the true person that we can't see.  Which is why only God can truly know (and pass judgment on) one's soul.  We can hide things from each other (like our true motives for being charitable, for example) but we can't hide it from God.  How would I know if my brother in church volunteers at the food bank out of love, or out of a desire to be seen and congratulated?  It would matter to God, but I am going to be a poor judge of that sort of thing.  Now, you may think it doesn't matter what the motives are, since the food bank gets worked either way.  But that's just another example of a very shallow understanding of doctrine.  We don't do good works so that the works earn us salvation.  We do the good works BECAUSE we are saved and we do those things out of obedience to God and our of love for our fellow man.  So then, the motivation might actually be THE most important thing.

I don't mean to sound snarky about all this.  But I think you deserve the truth so you can give this a real shot.  But you really need to get serious about understanding ANY religion you are seriously considering.  If you are visiting churches, set up a meeting with the preacher or elder in the church.  Then share these thoughts you posted with them.  That dialogue may open up some doors of understanding.

What the hell are you talking about?  

How much time have you spent in Protestant churches?  I was raised in Pentecostal churches and have attended Assembly of God and Baptist churches most of my adult life.  Behavior has always been a big part of the emphasis.

Where the distinction can get muddy is in the motivation for behavior.  Good behavior should be the naturally following result of conversion.  If you have indeed been born again, your daily life (and your thought life) should reflect a change.  Good works are part of that.

However, good works are not the entry ticket.  It's important to keep that distinction very clear.  And the good works we do to our fellow man are supposed to be out of love, so that our sacrifice (be it money, time, resources, etc.) is an example which illustrates how Jesus sacrificed for us.  In that way we are to emulate Him and thereby be an example to the unsaved.  But the net result of that work is intended to be the salvation of people.  I believe Jesus acknowledged this when he said (paraphrasing) "the poor will always be here".  The reason we are charitable is not some overarching humanitarian goal to eradicate hunger and homelessness.  While that sounds noble, compared to an eternal existence in Heaven or Hell, whether or not you were hungry on Earth matters little.  But feeding you when I don't have to may be a spark that makes you ask "why?", and the why is that I am to love you as Jesus loved me and to do what I can, with what God has made me a steward over, to show you that love so that you may then get to know Jesus.

The lure, though, is legalism.  And that manifests both in personal conduct standards, such as what you can wear/watch/eat/drink/do, and also in charitable endeavors.  We tend to like defined rules so we know how we are doing.  But we inevitably make an idol of the rules.  And that leads to tunnel vision.  So then we start judging ourselves and others by how well they obey the rules.  And the rules then become even more important.  But I digress.

If we spend all our resources to feed the hungry, but not one of them is saved, we have done nothing.  Going to Hell on a full stomach is still gong to Hell.  That's the key.  Charity is a means to be an example of God's love.  It isn't a means to some other seemingly noble end that a secular society can appreciate and get behind.  That doesn't mean it's done as some cynical recruiting measure.  Our individual motivation should be love, but the target of our love is the other individual and his/her soul, not a "cause" like ending hunger or AIDS or third world debt.

Yes.  Though using Jew is a bit misleading because someone can be ethnically Jewish and still be a Christian.  Jesus was a Jew.  So were his 12.

It's an interesting question for debate, but it really doesn't matter much.  

Scripture does indicate it both ways.  I can't recall the verse off the top of my head, but Paul uses the past tense when he refers to being saved...as if it is already done.  We can claim to be secure in our faith.  But of what help is that?  Belief in Jesus is what saves.  Not a belief in being sealed or not sealed upon being saved.  But yet scripture is full of warnings and exhortations which would be wholly unnecessary if salvation (and election) are irreversible and unavoidable.

If I get to Heaven and it was a sealed deal when first I professed faith or I was able to maintain it, I'll never know till it happens and the mysteries of the faith are revealed.  And if I don't get to Heaven, will it matter that I never had salvation or had it and lost it?

So then the question, when it boils down to it, really only matters if I think I can tell you in very specific terms what sin behavior will (and will not) disqualify you from salvation.  But that's a bit arrogant when you think about it.  Scripture really only indicates that there is one unforgivable sin.  It gives no specific limit on how many of a certain sin will cause someone to be given over to their reprobate mind.  So it's a question that has some interest, but only in an abstract, scholarly sense.  There is actually no practical application to knowing the answer since it cannot actually be applied to an individual's situation.  I cannot tell you, nor can you identify for yourself where the bright line is.  So arguing over whether a line that can crossed even exists, which such line could never be seen even if it does exist, is the very definition of a worthless exercise.

It's the same with predestination/election.  The scriptures indicate it both ways.  How can I do anything at all to make my salvation sure?  Yet we are told to do so in scripture.  What good would it do Paul to exhort me to be righteous and resist evil if my salvation or condemnation is inevitable and the very root question of whether or not I will have a saving faith is already decided for me?  Talk about wasted breath!  Why would he waste his time explaining that people can't be saved if they don't hear, and the won't hear unless they are preached to, and the can't be preached to unless the church sends out missionaries?  If someone is meant to be saved, they will.  And I can't fail big enough to keep God from saving them, can I?  So then why does Paul need to exhort me or any other person to fund missions?  For that heathen in some far off land to be absolutely predestined for salvation, that would mean the message getting there is also unavoidably predestined.  So then we don't really need cheerleaders, do we?  Because I can't actually make a decision in the chain of events either way.  And if there's only one outcome possible, then there wasn't a determinative choice to be made along the way.

OP: We know how you feel about religion.


But do you believe in paragraphs, bro?

Holy shit, an argument on religion, this has never been done before. said the Mormon.

With regards to the "everyone except me is going to hell" part, in my experience, yes..."Born Agains" that I have met tend to be like that.

With regards to there being a lot of BAs that are not very good people and go to church all the time, it is a mixed bag. Virtually every church has a group of crappy people within.

My view - Salvation is in three parts.

1. Justification - Being declared "not guilty". When you are born again, by believing that Jesus paid your sin debt that you had no way to pay on your own, God declares you a new creation, just as if you had never sinned. He essentially cloths you with the rightousness of His Son. It is nothing we do. The Bible says it is by faith and that even that (faith) is a gift of God. You are justified in God's sight and sealed until the day of redemption (see #3) by His Holy Spirit.

2. Sanctification - The process of your life (thoughts, motives actions, etc..) aligning with your justified status. You are declared righteous by God but you are still residing in a sinful body and living in a fallen, sinful world. It takes faith and effort on our part as we seek not our own will for our lives, but God's will instead. The more you are willing to "sacrifice" yourself to Christ, the more you will begin to model his life and actions. This is a lifelong process, not something instant.

3. Glorification - When we see Jesus face to face and receive our new uncorrupted, sin- less body. In Genesis, when Adam sinned, God put them out of the garden so they would not be able to eat from the tree of life. He guarded that way with his two most powerful angels which I think makes the act rather important. If Adam had eaten from that tree, he (and all mankind) would have been "locked in" to a sinful state for all eternity. By contrast, in Revelation it says that when we get to heaven (Glorification) we will have FULL Salvation. At that time, Jesus will give us the fruit of the tree of life to eat,thus locking us into an eternal sin-less state to reside with Him forever.

Praying God will lead you to the right place where you can learn about Him and worship Him in spirit and in truth.

My favorite quote on this issue is from St. Ignatius:



It's why the DC gov was a bit shocked a few years ago when the Archdiocese of Washington said, "No, thanks, we'd rather shut down our adoption and foster services after 80 years than comply with your new regulations that don't, in our view, help with salvation." And then they get called uncharitable, of course.

I'm in late on this, but I'm curious: Why not investigate whether or not what's being taught is actually true, before wasting brain cycles on the behavior of others? Are you trying to improve yourself, or do you just want to stand in judgement of others in the various congregations you've visited?

If I'm sitting in a college classroom full of dimwitted assholes, it doesn't invalidate the professor or his source material.

The behavioral standards laid out in Christian doctrine are impossibly high. In fact, that's kind of the point being driven home - it is absolutely impossible for you to live a perfect life. You WILL be a "hypocrite" at one point or another. The extent to which somebody else in the congregation is "more of a hypocrite than he is" is a matter of degree. The book itself teaches that on your own, you are a vile, sinful person. Everyone is (per the book) from birth...ergo, the need for salvation.

Per the Bible, every solitary person sitting in that church you're trying on like a new pair of shoes is a sinner. All of them, even the super duper nice ones. So why get hung up on what they're doing or not doing? That's between them and God. Why not worry about you? Why not examine what's actually being taught, and decide if it's...actually true or not?

Just random musings from a dirty rotten no good heathen non-believer.

When one believes salvation is earned they obviously cannot understand what Jesus taught.

Am I saved by faith in Christ?  Absolutely.  His grace provides ALL the mercy that is needed to satisfy justice, for those who have faith in him.  His grace is what redeems us.

The deeper question is, "has a person has been changed by their faith in Christ?"  In many ways, this is a measure of their faith.

When Christ says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments," then what would you expect a faithful person to do?  Obviously a person with faith would strive to keep his commandments.  Likewise it tells you something about the faith of a person who doesn't even try.

James addresses this much more fully in Chapter 2 of his writings.  

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"

And referring to Abraham in the same chapter, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"

James is not arguing against Paul here, regarding how we are saved by faith in Christ.  He is adding clarification to the nature of true faith.

So addressing the OP's comments, when noticing people who claim to be saved but show no attempt to actually follow Christ outside of church meetings, it is a reflection on the state of their faith.

And since we are imperfect people, even when we have faith, Christ has provided us with repentance as part of the refining process.  Thus a faithful person will continually repent.

Good post, and there's actually another extremely good point kind of hidden in this.

Salvation in every case is between EXACTLY two parties: one individual and Christ. That's it. It really doesn't matter what any other person, Christian or not, does. What matters is how you--each individual--responds to Christ on a personal level. Salvation is not a group proposition.

Thus, when someone says, "Well, what about the people in New Guinea who have never heard of Jesus?" It's a moot point if YOU have heard of Jesus and how He saves us. My salvation has nothing to do with what people in New Guinea hear or with how people in some particular church behave.

Yeah, this.

I thought you stated in the past that you believed salvation was by grace.  

If salvation is earned, then Jesus didn't need to go to the cross.

Or, perhaps you are agreeing with me that if a person can lose salvation, that means he has to keep it - and ultimately salvation is by works if that is the case.

At this point I really don't know what you believe.

And my reply was not glib.

God became flesh to take men's sins upon Himself and pay for them that those who trust Him may be reconciled to Him and receive everlasting life.  His body was broken, His blood was shed.  Jesus laid down His life for sinners.  His soul was made an offering for sin.  He rose again from the dead.

God did all the work.  God paid all the price.

Someone doesn't believe that?  They certainly aren't going to understand doctrines related to salvation.

 

Everyone starts out with their name in the book of life.(Find me a verse where someone is added to the book of life.)  At some point a person who discards the faith he was dealt, and rejects the light he receives, gets his name blotted out of the book of life.  The passage has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

Everyone starts out alive.  They are in the book of life.  Babies die.  No sin imputed to them. People mentally retarded from birth die.  No sin imputed to them.  They were in the book of life from the beginning.  They die, having never been blotted from the book of life.

As Paul explained, he was alive without the law, then he came under law - He understood that God existed and that he sinned against God.  At that point Paul said that he died - spiritually speaking.  Then when he trusted Christ he was born again and was alive in Christ and the Holy Spirit dwelt within him.

You mentioned that the verse SEEMED to indicate that salvation can be lost.

That's what folks who subscribe to the doctrine of the INSECURITY of the believer have to do - find verses that SEEM like they might mean that.

All the while disregarding the verses that EXPLICITLY, CLEARLY and UNMISTAKABLY state that a believer is secure in God's hands for all eternity.

Romans 8
8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God keeps those He saves by HIS POWER.  Are you so strong that you can overcome His power and be lost?

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

God seals the believer with His Holy Spirit.  Again, some think themselves powerful enough to break His seal.

1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, salvation is a done deal.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

According to the word of God believers are born again by the INCORRUPTIBLE word of God.


1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God PRESERVES BLAMELESS those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

Those who trust Jesus Christ are PRESERVED IN CHRIST.


2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

God keeps the soul that is entrusted to Him


Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those who trust Jesus will not perish but HAVE (present tense) eternal life.


Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

God's work saved me - God's work keeps me saved - And God isn't going to stop working


Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,  :39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NOTHING can separate the believer from God.


Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Think you have to keep yourself saved?  You are ignorant of God's righteousness and trying to establish your own righteousness.

Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

When you want true righteousness, there is only One who can provide it.

Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Believe and be saved.  Right now.

Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

The gift of God is eternal life, and He won't take it back.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It's not about carnal life for the believer - he is dead to sin, and his new life is hidden in Christ.  Securely.

1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Ro 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Trust Christ and receive life EVERLASTING.  It has no end.  It isn't TEMPORARY life - it is everlasting life.

Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Too many "everlastings"?  How about ETERNAL life then.

2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

GOD has made the promise to save those who trust Him, and keep them saved.  And He is FAITHFULLY going to do just that.


1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

The believer can KNOW that he has ETERNAL LIFE when he BELIEVES on the Lord Jesus Christ.

And that's the rub....

Many who say that salvation can be lost aren't TRUSTING JESUS for the salvation of their soul.  They don't believe on Him as defined by the Bible - instead they believe in Jesus AND their own works.

To them it's:  Jesus' righteousness + my righteousness = salvation.

If that were true, then salvation could absolutely, positively be lost.

Thank God it's not the case!

Why did you say this?

The apparent intent of what you wrote is saying that people who are disagreeing with your interpretation of Scripture do not believe the things you listed. Is that what you meant to convey?

Nobody who describes himself as Christian in this thread has demonstrated that he does not "believe that," and one who did not believe that would, of course, not be a Christian at all. Is that what you're trying to imply?

It's an argument I've had with many Born Agains.  There seem to be two really different views of what being a Christian means.



1.  Accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior.  Nothing else matters as long as you repent at or before the time of your death.



2.  Live your life as Jesus taught.  Love, forgiveness, humility.



I don't get the first one - at all.

Blotted out. Lose salvation. What's the difference? No matter what you call it, at the end you either have eternal life or you don't. You can chose to lose it (get blottet out) just like criminals chose to commit crime and go to jail.



Never heard of that doctrine and I don't subscribe to doctrines.

Maybe my misuse of the word "seems" is what sparked your assumption. What I meant to say was: Its very clear to me, the verse states that if a person overcomes he wins. If not, he looses (loses salvation, eternal life, whatever else you want to call it), blotted out/erased from the book.

Why?

Because things diametrically opposed do not support one another.

Salvation is by grace through faith.  Grace is not merited.

The "you can lose it" crowd has added their works into the equation for salvation.

In other words, what Jesus did is not adequate - people who subscribe to your doctrine have to keep themselves saved.

Fully trusting in the FINISHED work of the Lord Jesus Christ =/= "salvation can be lost"