I'll just quote the second post below and tell you that, with respect to your first post, I absolutely disagree with your comments about context. Of course context matters, but I did not quote the passages out of context. Still, but you have not addressed what the Scriptures say.

You have added Paul's next thought to the passage from Colossians 1 and said that I took what I posted out of context. If the point of the passage I quoted is Paul's desire to be perfect--complete--in Christ, what did Paul mean by, "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister"?

And yes, Peter was talking about false teachers, but do you disagree that those false teachers had "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" and that "they are once again entangled in them" and that "the latter end is worse for them than at the beginning"? What do you make of that? How did these false teachers escape the pollutions of the world if not through Christ? Can people who do not believe escape the pollutions of the world through simple knowledge?

Saying that I took the passages out of context is a common way to avoid discussing the Scripture I posted. I get that all the time, along with "you misinterpreted it" or "the translator got it wrong" or "those verses don't really belong in the Bible anyway." All these are simply devices used to move the argument away from Scripture that is problematic to a favored doctrine.

Also, speaking of context, you began your quote of Colossians in the middle of a sentence, so you didn't include the whole context. See how that works?


You said before that people, I guess like me, would say that it is possible for a man to lose his faith. Is that possible, and if so, what happens then? My father once had faith, but over the last 20 years, he decided that he was wrong. Is my father saved even though he now denies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God?

Join the Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate. Our wine may be mediocre, but we're currently branching out to whiskey.

So are you saying that God gives us freewill to choose to accept Christ or not, and if we truly do then God takes away our freewill?

I appreciate your willingness to give me the hard answer. More people should be willing to do so and I don't at all take it unkindly. Time and again you've demonstrated that you don't do "unkindly."

Unfortunately, I believe the same thing about where he's headed if he continues in his faithlessness. It is a hard thing, but it's the truth of the matter and sadly it's not up to either one of us.

That said, what kind of security can you possibly enjoy if it is possible to "think" you are saved, but you really are not? Isn't that the very definition of false security, or insecurity? It turns out that Dad was not secure at all, right?

How is a believer to have security in the knowledge that he is saved if he can't ever be sure if his belief is really real, given that he can't predict the future and he knows there might come a time when he doesn't believe anymore?

While I don't believe at all in once-saved-always-saved (unless you view salvation as what it is--the eternal result of being judged righteous, and once God has judged, there is no undoing it), I do feel absolutely secure because I do believe, and I do strive to learn more and more about God and to try to do better and better at making my will match His will. On the other hand, I know that I can also abandon that desire to live according to God's instruction, thus abandoning the promise that God has made to me, and that I know He will keep if I will, as Paul said, "continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and [am] not moved away from the hope of the gospel which [I] heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven."

ETA: Drat. Once again, I've repeated something Zhukov said or posted. Sorry about that. Again.

Don't forget beer.

The LCMS church I'm going to is having an Octoberfest party and are also holding beermaking lessons.

Figures. Buncha Germans.



(if you knew my full name, you'd know I don't mean that in a Germans are bad kind of way)

I'll bet they all ask, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?" To me, it's a code phrase. It's always asked that way. You are right, people of that mind tend to believe it's the acceptance part that "saves" them.

There is a difference between redemption and salvation, and I am not prepared to expound on it. But look into it and see if you find the meaning you are looking for.

No the problem is they usually find one person who one time claimed to be a Born again Christian, but is a complete hypocrite, so they determined that all claiming born again Christians are.

I am. Baptist saved out of Mormonism over 20 years ago.  I am around many Baptist and have rarely seen anything like the OP and several others claim.  I have seen plenty of hypocrites that did not hang around long though.

Just spent 5 days with 42 Baptist preachers, pastors,  evangelists, and a few young men, visiting historical Baptist sites in New England, and saw nothing as described by the OP and others.

No offense taken,

I always found us, for all of our ultra-Conservative reputation, to be a pretty laid back and low-maintenance denomination.



(BTW, my name is about as German as you can get without sounding like you're trying to work up a loogie.)

As you said, I can't imagine it. In fact, I always feel a sort of desperation to know God better and become closer with Him.

I also know the same thing as you, that I cannot "keep myself saved" by doing enough good works or something. However, I also know from reading the Bible that it is possible for me to withdraw from the covenant that gives me the hope of the promise of the eternal inheritance.

That's also an interesting take on all this--have you ever noticed that the New Testament talks lots about the "promise" that we as Christians have? You might be able to correct me on this, but I do not think that the Bible anywhere says that we receive this inheritance while we live in this temporal creation. That promise is something that is fulfilled in eternity when we are judged righteous in Christ.

And therefore, those things don't exist, right?

Since nobody has yet offered any sort of commentary that might educate me on the true meaning of the Scripture that I posted earlier, I'll ask you. If you care to comment, you'll find that Scripture in a brown font in a really long post of mine--you can't miss it if you look for it.

I am on my phone riding home so it is hard to read but if I understand the main point I will try.

Are there hypocritical men who are in fact saved, not living a life for Christ? Yes plenty.

Since being saved can I live my life contrary to God's word? Yes I can. I would be wrong and would expect for God to punish me in some way.

Are there men who claim salvation and never had it? Yes there are, way to many.

Basically are there hypocrites in Baptist churches?  Yep every single one.

Hah, be safe! Even Arfcom (and GD at that) is not worth getting in a wreck!

As to the part I bolded, I get a chuckle every time I hear someone talk about how Christians are hypocrites. Your response is exactly the response that comes to my mind.

See? Now there's another can of worms. How can I join the church that Christ established?

Answer: I cannot join it. The Lord adds me to His church as I am taught in Acts 2:47, which reads:

Acts 2:46-47
So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

I can join the Baptist Church and I can join the Episcopal Church, but the Lord has to add me to His church. Also note the use of the imperfect tense with respect to salvation--"those who were being saved." It indicates that their salvation was not, at that time, complete.

So yes, I can absolutely join any church established by men without regard to my soul's condition, but the Lord only adds me to His church if I am, in fact, "being saved."

Let me help out:

To a multitude of Christian sects acceptance of Jesus is the way to heaven.   Heaven is being in the presence of God, you can not simply be a good person and get there, you must accept Jesus as the the son of god and as "your savior".   This is not damnation of huge populations.   It is simply indicating that the choice must be made to follow the lead of Christ.  It is the duty of Christians to spread that message to others and offer them this choice as well which is why Christians tend towards evangelism and commit that greatest of secular sins "pushing religion".

It does not make sense to claim that one is saved and yet willfully act in ways that are "crappy".   It is also clear that no man is going to be judged "good enough" to get to heaven minus the Jesus angle.  I've always heard it explained that a person has some serious soul searching to do if they both believe they are saved and continue to willfully disobey the teachings of the bible and the commandments.  Just like if your kid says they are sorry for stealing your money, the honesty of that will be called into question if they continue to steal every time they want some extra cash.

It's really not that hard to fathom and I'm not Christian.

Yeah, that's a pretty good summary. You should consider becoming a Christian. Just sayin'...

Yep, me too, and Amen!

Hallelujah ain't God great.

I ain't the one driving Mastadon, I am the one trying not to let my hot dog and French fries come back up from lunch.  The driver has a lot of experience driving through Iraq and Afghanistan.  I keep teasing him that I95 is not Bagdad.  But hey my prayer life is caught up.

Hahaha! God go with you, my friend.

One passage I can think of is when Jesus speaks to anyone harming a hair on a childs head.  It would better that they were thrown into the sea with a millstone around their neck.  Luke 17:2



 

Yup..and most Christians I know...including myself will be the first to tell you...I'm not a good Christian....just a work in progress.

woot! get me some Lutheran hate...  but only those ELCA guys...they's weird.

You guy's can always listen to my pastor right here

http://www.buzzsprout.com/944

1 John 5
10 ¶ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

My favorite verse in the Bible:

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I consider myself a chief of sinners.  I don't know about everyone else's sins, just my own.

You know, I started going through your post. You'll find that my responses and some more questions are written in blue. I stopped about halfway through, though, as I don't know that there's much point in arguing with someone who teaches that one can deny Christ and still be saved or that one who considers himself saved can continue leading an unholy life. I think that speaks for itself and folks can decide for themselves whether or not that makes sense.

Never mind. No point.

Tons and tons of them around here in middle TN. Makes me want to own a lion or two.

Don't read too much into predestinarian doublespeak. They'll write ten contradictions in one paragraph to convince you they have a grasp of the subject. In their view, God is the ultimate cosmic asshole, who tinkers with men's minds to make them believe one way or another. It's absurd.



 

Of course.



 

If you would sit down and write a book telling Christians what they believe, you'd do all Christians a great service, wouldn't you?

YOU say people who have trusted Jesus Christ can lose salvation....

And that means Jesus didn't pay for ALL their sins on the cross.

You folks who claim saved souls can "lose it" either a)  don't understand salvation and what Jesus did, does and will do for those who trust Him or b) are trusting in your own merit to save you:  "I kept it but the other guy didn't keep his."

There sure are a considerable number of people who have absolutely no idea what the "imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ" actually means....

Which means they have no understanding of salvation.

When a sinner trusts Jesus Christ:

a) no sin is imputed to that believer

b) Jesus' righteousness is imputed to that believer.

ROMANS 4
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶ [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 ¶ (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.


When a sinner trusts Jesus Christ that sinner doesn't have to worry about "keeping himself saved" or "losing salvation" because God:

a) doesn't impute the sinner's own sin to him

b) but does impute God's own righteousness to the sinner.

When a sinner trusts Jesus Christ, that soul is RIGHTEOUS in God's eyes.  FOREVER.  That's why the sinner who trusts Jesus Christ can KNOW he has everlasting life.

And the fact that there are people who don't understand that, or don't believe it won't change that one little bit.

You're over complicating the subject. It's explained perfectly in the parable of the sower. If there was more to say on it, Jesus would have said it then. Bringing up a No True Scotsman fallacy is totally unnecessary.



 

That...is the difficult part.