According to my God, it is not my place to say.  As such, I can not answer. I say this, I hope atheists go to heaven too. I know many who are atheists that are wonderful people, heaven would be lesser than grand if it missed out on those of which I speak. I hope I see them.

I'd have to say that we don't know EVERYTHING as to God's plan. The Bible is not exhaustive, it's a collection of books. God's a pretty smart dude, he more than likely has a plan for atheists too.  I don't presume to elevate myself and imbue myself with the powers to encapsulate God into man's image, forcing God to posses man's weaknesses or passions.

I know some brilliant minds, truly brilliant, who are atheists, good people, but for whatever reason, deity is beyond their grasp. They find death frightening. I don't blame them for it, for if I thought as they do, I'd be absolutely terrified that I would simply cease to exist, never remember or feel ever again, that once dead, that was it, over, done, for all time, eternal nothingness. I can think of little worse than that. Every experience, meaningless.

How can we have such marvelous experiences, memories, abilities to transcend beyond cavemen then should we be without a soul? Merely happenstance? A lucky cosmic coincidence so perfect, that it created such an imperfect ecosystem with such perfectly imperfect beings with such reason as us? How complicated we are to merely be food for worms.

Ponder the words of William Shakespear for a moment:  "Life's but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Yes, of course atheists have souls. just as catholic priests have balls and nuns have tits. Just because you don't see them use 'em, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Apparently he loved his son more as he brought him up to heaven in order to hang out with him forever.
Not much of a sacrifice. Especially when God assures you personally that you're going to your eternal reward after a short bit of suffering. A lot of Christians would take that deal in a second.

Wow....

I've heard this argued many times, and couldn't disagree more.

First of all, beyond their grasp? No. You may disagree with them, but I assure you nobody lacks belief in your religion because their brilliant minds aren't capable of comprehending it. Children have your beliefs. I comprehended just fine when I was a teenager. I can stand somebody saying they think I'm wrong, but the arrogance it takes to suggest that I don't agree with you because I lack the mental capacity only serves to make you look the fool.

Also, I certainly can't speak for the billions of atheists across the world as you seem to be able to, but I don't fear death. At least, not for personal reasons. I've been forced to contemplate my own death on multiple occasions, and my only real concern is for the hurt it will cause my family and friends, for the fact that they will no longer have me in their lives. It is the religious who are obsessed with the notion of death and what will happen after and whether or not they've served their god sufficiently to pass his ultimate test--the atheist has none of these concerns. The atheist is content with the fact that death is the end. Certainly I'd like to prolong that end as long as possible, as I think most anybody would (theist or atheist), but I don't have anxiety over the idea of my death. I haven't known the other atheists to whom I am close to have that fear, either.

As for being terrified, are you terrified every time you lay down to sleep? Your consciousness ceases to exist. You may never wake up. I'm sure this doesn't concern you.

And finally, every experience meaningless? That borders on insulting. I've brought love into the lives of others. I've made friends that I've had for nearly my entire life, and whose lives I've enriched. They've enriched mine. I've put smiles on faces, breathed mountaintop air, tasted fine wines and award winning food. My actions have brought people home alive to their families, who otherwise would not have returned. I'm certainly not claiming to be perfect or lack flaws, but my existence and my actions have had profoundly positive impacts on others. And because this is the only life that--all beliefs aside--we're absolutely guaranteed, THAT'S what counts. If anything, the idea that I think our cells simply die and our brain stops functioning at the end makes this life infinitely important. It makes every action profoundly meaningful. Every experience could be your last, so you live your life making the most of them. I wouldn't want it any other way.

On the converse, if your time on Earth is simply meant as an opportunity to pay homage to a god, spread his word, and hopefully earn a pass into eternal paradise, your experience here then becomes less important in the grand, cosmic picture. What's 80 years on Earth compared to an ETERNITY in paradise? 4 trillion years from now are you going to remember the afternoon that you volunteered at a soup kitchen? Any existence here becomes wholly insignificant in both time and scope, with the exception that it was your time to demonstrate your commitment...but that has no meaning to those who don't share your faith. Your time and experiences here are not even a blip on the radar if you'll have an infinite amount of time and an infinite number of experiences in Heaven.

Many have. Plenty of Muslims have and continue to do so. Buddhists have set themselves on fire.

 

On the bright side, there is no marriage in heaven.

DO NOT SAY THAT GOD DID NOT TRY AND TELL YOU WHERE YOU GO WITHOUT TRUSTING JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOUR! PLEASE READ WHAT GOD SAYS BELOW AND TRUST HIM AT HIS WORDS........


Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James 4:12 - There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Mark 9:43-48 - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:   (Read More...)

Matthew 23:33 - [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

2 Peter 2:4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

John 5:28 - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 14:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Matthew 16:26-27 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?   (Read More...)

Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Acts 3:23 - And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Matthew 13:50 - And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 12:36 - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Acts 2:27 - Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

John 5:29 - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Luke 16:23 - And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Matthew 5:22 - But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Isaiah 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

Acts 2:31 - He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

John 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:13 - Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Daniel 12:2 - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

Job 14:13 - O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Jude 1:13 - Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Luke 16:19-31 - There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:   (Read More...)

Luke 16:1-31 - And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.   (Read More...)

Luke 12:5 - But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Luke 1:1-80 - Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,   (Read More...)

Matthew 5:30 - And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Revelation 20:13-15 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.   (Read More...)

Jude 1:7 - Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

1 John 4:8-12 - He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.   (Read More...)

2 Peter 3:4 - And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

James 4:6 - But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Hebrews 9:27 - And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Mark 9:48 - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Jeremiah 32:35 - And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Psalms 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Genesis 37:35 - And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:1-15 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.   (Read More...)

Revelation 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 2:11 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 1:18 - I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-31 - For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,   (Read More...)

Hebrews 2:14 - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 23:15 - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 18:8 - Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Psalms 68:2 - As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Leviticus 18:2-5 - Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.   (Read More...)

Jude 1:12 - These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

1 John 5:16 - If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

James 3:6 - And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

James 1:15 - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Hebrews 6:4-8 - For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,   (Read More...)

Hebrews 2:9 - But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

2 Timothy 4:8 - Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

2 Timothy 4:1 - I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Colossians 1:18 - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

Galatians 6:8 - For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1 Corinthians 15:13-18 - But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:   (Read More...)

1 Corinthians 15:4 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Romans 5:6-10 - For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.   (Read More...)

Acts 24:15 - And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Acts 2:34 - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

John 14:1 - Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 11:11-14 - These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.   (Read More...)

John 8:44 - Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 4:24 - God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Luke 14:14 - And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:47 - And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luke 10:15 - And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Luke 3:17 - Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Matthew 26:38 - Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

Matthew 24:51 - And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:9 - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Matthew 3:12 - Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Jonah 2:2 - And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.

Jonah 2:1 - Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

Hosea 13:14 - I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Ezekiel 28:19 - All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.

Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Holy wall of text.

HOLY WARNING TO MAN!

Whales are not fish. They are mammals, bro.

Before they were classified by man as mammals they were classified by GOD as fish. Genesis 1:20-21.

Trust man then and do not listen to the warnings.  YOUR CHOICE!

He is his son....God is the Father...God is the Son...God is the Holy Spirit.

I would say that only serves to cheapen the eulogies of those who truly knew the man. If they didn't know him, why would they speak to his greatness? They have no idea, and thus the words become meaningless. It may be "support" in a time of need, but it's completely hollow.

If whales are supposed to be fish, why did God make them mammals?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Trust man, like trusting the warnings written by men pretending to be talking for god?



 

The bible contains some great stories and SOME good advice, the problem is you have to cherry pick the good stuff and ignore all the horrible/violent/contradictory parts. If you're going to use your own judgment to pick and choose what you follow, why bother with the middle man? Trust your own judgment.

Not sure if serious?

depends on your perspective of the contents, does it not?  if you think it's just a book, it has a different meaning than if you think it's the word of god.  if you want to understand the world from my eyes, stop interpreting things from your perspective and then saying "I don't get how you can see it that way."  you can't put your view up as the standard for everyone else's view, not be able to look at things from different perspectives, and then claim "I don't get it."  Step outside yourself for a second, absent your beliefs (all of them, not just religion) and contemplate how others would see the world if they didn't believe what you believe, and get back to me.

That is easy to do, and I did, of course, do that before I became a Christian. I can only speak for myself, but I can see the ideas, choices and perspective of others very easily. I understand why the terrorists do what they do. I understand why they do not stand and fight. I understand why they strap bombs to their children's bodies. I just do not agree with it, nor condone it. See how easy that is? That is how I see the world. I am full of worldly experiences and have made my share of mistakes, yet I can still call a spade a spade. I can do that on here and in my own family. I happen to believe that right, wrong, Holy and evil all exist. I am not in the least worried about hurting someone's feelings when it is appropriate. The OP referred to the Bible being true - for his/her question - as usual, this thread is way off track with individuals silly personal ideas. Useless, when discussing things regarding the maker of our universe.

Had a reply typed out....it got lost

I don't have the time to type it all out again now. This is why we need eternity!

To the poster about eternity:

The Bible doesn't teach of a lofty heavenly place in the clouds being the eternal home...a resting place on the way to that home, possibly. Isaiah and Revelation both talk of a "new heaven and a new earth". Even if it were the regular earth we have now, I think I could find a way to occupy my time exploring every inch of the planet. I don't know what it will be like, no one does, the Bible makes that clear as well "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him".

But it's about so much more than that. The life I have after seeking God and His Son is a 180 degree difference from where I was at before. It cheapens it to say that it was about "remembering the afternoon in the soup kitchen". It's not about that. It's about being a light in the dark of this world. Even a lone candle casts aside the dark and resists it, guiding others in the dark to its flame.

Much wiser men than any of us believed in the Creator, in Jesus as well; Isaac Newton, Galileo, Socrates to a degree (in God or Creator only I guess),  Georges Lemaître the scientist behind "The Big Bang Theory", who was a Catholic priest. So the modern notion of "oh I'm too smart to believe in God" is ridiculous and somewhat conceited (to those who would think their wisdom above these men) and I'm not sure how it came to be exactly.

Most translations render Mark 9:43 as some variation of "And if your hand should be your downfall, cut it off; it is better for you to enter into life crippled, than to have two hands and go to hell, into the fire that can never be put out." Granted, the Greek form is most likely "Gehenna", but 1) why would you go to the garbage pile for eternity, and 2) surely at some point these folks saw the fire go out in said garbage pile and understood that it was a metaphor, as Jesus was quite a fan of those.

Why would you go to hell for eternity? Both seem equally plausible/implausible.

How could a fire burn for eternity? That violates the laws of thermodynamics.



 

And exploring every single inch would take you less than the first second of the first minute of the first hour of the first day of eternity. It's eternal. By definition, you CAN'T occupy the time. It's endless. Though I believe this was in reference to somebody else's post.

As for leading a good life and being a light in the dark, that's entirely possible without religion. You can be moral and caring and compassionate and inspirational and impactful without a god directing you to be. I've volunteered at a soup kitchen (to stress that the example wasn't targeted as being a purely religious act), and I've been the light for others in times of distress and need.

Ignoring that this is a flagrant appeal to authority (a logical fallacy), nobody has argued the contrary. Plenty of very intelligent men (though often still very uninformed when compared to the knowledge of today) have believed in the idea of a creator, yes. Many believed that creator is the Christian God. The most intelligent and respected man in my life--my father--is a PhD scientist who is also a devout Christian. I can't understand how he reconciles the two, but I certainly don't think it's due to a lack of intelligence, nor have I argued that in any broader sense in this thread. I don't lack faith because I think I know more than those who believe--it's precisely the opposite, actually. I lack faith because we don't know. I wasn't convinced by religion because I don't think we have the ultimate answers to the entirety of the Universe and everything outside of it captured in several hundred pages of man-made text. It's the religions that assert they have the ultimate answers to life's fundamental mysteries and that anybody who doesn't believe is simply failing to see their truth. There's your arrogance. There's your claim to greater knowledge.

It doesn't. It's called "eternal" fire and "everlasting" fire.  One of the places that reference what eternal fire is is in Jude 1: 6,7  ....as Sodom and Gomorrah..............suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. There is no fire there today but the results were eternal, everlasting or as we say today, permanent. The lake of fire doesn't exist yet. The New earth with the New Jerusalem as the capital will be right here on this earth AFTER everything and those not in heaven are burnt up.  The smoke will rise up forever just like it does today........means it goes out of site just like smoke does today.  ymmv

MORE LIKE ETERNAL PROPANE FLAME

There is no doubt that your perspective  influences the way you see these things.

Tell me, what perspective does one need to have to swallow Jephthah murdering his daughter?

What perspective allows you to be cool with Lot offering his daughters up to a rape-frenzied mob? And then  allows you to also be cool with those same daughters then getting him drunk and banging him? This after your loving God murdered his faithful servant's loving wife?

What perspective allows you to be anything but disgusted by God sending a bear to maul 42 children for making fun of Elisha's bald head?

A moral person cannot accept these things as written in the 'inerrant texts'. These things are ridiculous don't pass muster once you apply the barest bit of critical thinking. Sadly this just scratches the surface of the places where the bible gets morality all wrong.

To reiterate my point, there is some good advice and interesting parables, but you cannot calibrate your moral compass using all of the lessons in the bible. You have to pick and choose what you agree with and have to  simply reject (or perform logical gymnastics to try and justify–) a great deal of the nonsense. The Judea-Christian God is a sadist and a murderer, who would choose to get their morality from him?

So a literal hell will only exist for a brief period of time?



 

YES!  It happens after the great white throne judgement. Same as Sodom and Gomorrah.  Men have mixed pagan mythology with religion and made God out to be some kind of sadist. It worked pretty well to get people to give money and fill the pews but it's BS.

Not to mention that existence doesn't "owe" anybody meaning. It could in fact be all meaningless. That doesn't justify a belief in God (and certainly not a specific one). I could find life meaningless if I didn't believe there was a giant diamond buried deep underground in my backyard, it doesn't make it a justified belief and it doesn't make it true. It's just people really really wanting something to be true.

Nope.  Because we know it doesn't exist

Your wrong perspective keeps you from seeing anything remotely true about those particular incidents.

Neither Jepthah or Lot are to be seen as examples in ANY of those circumstances you brought up.  Quite the opposite is true.  Jepthah's screwed up idea of what kind of God God was and what He demanded led to this tragedy.  God did not require him to make the vow in the first place and He sure as heck did not demand that Jepthah keep it.  Jepthah was treating God like the pagan nations around him treated their Gods and that was his failure.

Lot was totally wrong to offer his daughters to the crowds.  What in that text makes you think God wanted him to do that?

And the situation with Elisha is not true the way you have said it.  These were not children.  These were in the Hebrew (young men).  King James really screws that translation up.  And ONLY 42 of the young men were mauled.  There was a much bigger demonstration involved.  Likely there were 200-300 there altogether. The bible only says that 42 were mauled.  It doesn't say how many were in the demonstration.  It says that OF the young men, 42 mocked Elisha.  And also, do you know what they meant when they said, "Go up you bald head?"  I bet you don't.  Clue…  It had nothing to do with his bald head.  You have not done ANY of your homework on those three circumstances.  You have let someone else do it for you.

Patrick

oops

So god was too weak and impotent to overrride his offering?



Why would anyone worship such a weak being?



Then why was he considered a righteous man worthy of being saved, he seems equally as guilty as the men coming to rape them?



 

Why doesn't God override all the dumb terrible decisions I have made in my life.  I believe in Him and serve Him and I had done some terrible things.  I guess you don't understand free agency, personal responsibility, and grace.
Lot wasn't righteous for any reason OTHER than he believed God.  You don't understand that taking God at His Word (belief) is the only thing God counts as righteousness.  Lot had no righteousness just like I don't have any righteousness.  He screwed up big time.  He had some very bad issues in his character and life and the things you brought up are the fruit of those issues.  But when it was all said and done, he believed God.

God isn't weak.  Good grief.  Saying God is weak because He doesn't choose to intervene to protect people from the consequences of their screw ups isn't good math.  I still live with some of the consequences of MY sin but I sure as heck don't blame God for that.  I love Him because He first loved me.

Patrick

Nailed it.



I've only recently had the courage to call myself an Atheist, after a lifetime of atruggling with questions that nobody seemed to be able to answer. Growing up and going to a Lutheran church as a child, before walking away only teens. Marrying into a family of "End Times" nutcases certainly didn't help. Mbership in a local "Mega-Church", led by a convicted murderer from Texas(Nashville natives might know who this is) did nothing, even though I was baptized there one Fourth of July Picnic.  Joining and becoming active members of a local Presbyterian church in the small town where we lived only helped to cement my belief that church is a social event, not a religious one. I find most modern-day Christians to be offensive to me, as smug self-righteousness has replaced grace in almost every instance I've seen.


I'll never set foot in a church ever again.

I don't think you are an atheist.  You are a wounded theist.  Bad churchianity is good at that.  I know it personally and through 25 years of being a pastor.  Bad toxic church makes wounded theists who eventually identify with atheism.  

In regards to Elisha;
How many times have I read on here about how someone could/would respond to an angry mob on this site?
The KJV is far from a perfect translation (the verse about unicorns springs to mind) and did a disservice here by mistranslating young men (the same term used in the passage is also used for Joseph in his 30's) as children. So, a group of at least 42 young men, probably between 15 and 30ish is accosting Elisha. The taunt of "go on up" was probably in regards to Elijah's "going up/away" with God and the mob was telling Elisha to do as his master and die/go away. "Baldhead" can mean a few things, and as shaving the head was a sign of mourning and they seem to be mocking Elijah's death already, they were possibly adding insult to injury. Furthermore, nowhere does it say that the bears killed the men, they mauled them. 42 men is a big number for 2 bears to take down in a mostly desert environment with plenty of room to run. Whether we agree with it or believe it or not, I'd say the youths got off pretty easily considering some of the other examples of God's anger/wrath in the OT.

Lot was very clearly flawed and making some pretty horrible decisions, but up until the offering of his girls, we don't see any evidence of anything but bad decisions. I'd say losing his wife and then having his daughters basically defile him might be a glimpse of judgment on him for his action in Sodom.

I think "patsue" gave a pretty good explanation on Jephthah

Jesus himself says that parts of the Mosaic Law, claimed to have been given by God, were in fact given by Moses (see Jesus on divorce in the Book of Mark). And the Bible doesn't hide that the Jewish leaders were changing and using the Law for their own uses, that's one of the major things Jesus spent time on, correcting the Pharisees. So, I'm inclined to believe that some of the OT is exaggerated (the number of Israelites who left Egypt for instance), that some evil (in my eyes) things went on (genocides and what have you) and were justified as saying "God said so", never mind that the Bible also doesn't hide that the Hebrews didn't exactly have a habit of obeying God, and that there are possibly moral stories, or myths if you will, inserted into the historical text. I may not be right, I may not be wrong. I truly don't know, and I'm ok with that. I've seen things in my life, a few I would call miraculous, that I can only attribute to a higher power, and given that I seek God (Elohim, Yahweh, YHWH, Jehovah, etc) I'm also inclined to think that those things were done at His will.

In my own logic, if my father was the most intelligent and respected man in my life, I would be inclined to follow his lead. I love my father, but he's neither the most intelligent or respected person in my life. So in most ways, I have not followed his lead. However, to those that I would call the most intelligent and respected; I found myself wanting what they had. Far more often than not, these men followed Christ and had no problem with putting their faith in something they couldn't be 100% sure of. Is that not what faith is?

Their experiences and lives had brought them to a place where they felt that what they'd been taught about God and Jesus was real and in doing so, sought a relationship with our Creator and knowledge of Him.

Nowhere does the Bible say it has all the answers, in fact as I quoted elsewhere, Paul says "no one knows or can describe what God has in store...". Paul describes God as a mystery. No one is saying the Bible has all of the answers by a stretch, it's just that it has one answer, an answer that I would consider of very utmost of importance. I don't need to know why, or how, but only Who.

God didn't require it, but what did this all-powerful being do to stop it?  If this isn't what your god wanted, why didn't he intervene? He was quite actively involved in things in those days. Why didn't he stop his guy from murdering his daughter?


So this God of yours decides to strike at Lot's wife the very moment she looked back, but lets Lot slide on offering up (and then later banging) his daughters? Immediate death for the wife for looking back, but the possible rape of his children and then incest doesn't even warrant a wrist slapping?


Trust me, I've done more homework then I care to remember. No offense, but what you wrote is pure, unadulterated fiction. Most translations (and I've read dozens) say 'little children', 'boys', 'young lads', etc. They all got it wrong, but you know the truth? And 'likely' 200-300? Did you completely pull that number out of thin air? It says nothing of the kind, your description of the event is longer than the actual verses. And I invite you to educate me on the baldness of Elisha's head, but I bet you don't have much to say that can be backed up by scripture.

The words probably, possibly, likely and a variety of other adverbs are painfully necessary to even attempt the leaps in logic you are trying to make.

I agree with you and I am fairly certain that when it's all said and done you and I share a very similar moral code. I just don't need biblical morals to get me there.

You are just wrong about "children" in the Elisha account.  It is a bad translation.  Easily provable if you will follow up.  This is easy stuff in Hebrew.  Did you look at any commentaries on this passage?  From commentators familiar with the biblical languages?  

As far as Lot's wife looking back and Jepthah and his daughter.  You are indicting God because you think you have all the information you need to do that.  I wouldn't want you on my jury that's for sure.  I did nothing to add to the scripture.  The text does not say how many were involved.  It says, "the bears mauled 42 OF the youth"  That means there were more there.  Isn't that how you speak English?  It sure is the way I speak it.  I can see two bears charging into a big crowd and injuring 42 people.  Not hard to imagine at all.  Ever see a bull in a bull fight ring jump into the stands?  It's ugly.  

In regards to why God defended His prophet from this mob.  It's funny to me to think that if God hadn't intervened and let the mob overwhelm, injure, and maybe kill Elisha, God would be indicted for NOT INTERVENING for His servant.  I think in the mind of those who reject Him, He just can't do anything right.  So He gets fired.

You don't understand why God struck Lot's wife.  Fair enough.  But you then judge God and convict Him as non existent because you think you DO have all the information.  That's why when someone offers you an explanation, you don't want to hear it because you have already convicted God and found Him guilty.  In your mind, He can't possibly be omnipotent AND benevolent and do to Lot's wife what He did.  

I say based upon the whole revelation of God and the context of this story and how it plays into His incredible plan that there is more than enough evidence that He is omnipotent and benevolent and what He did with Lot's wife was appropriate.  The Hebrew for “looked back” means more than to glance over one’s shoulder. It means to regard, to consider, to pay attention to. The Scriptures don’t say whether her death was a punishment for valuing her old life so much that she hesitated in obeying, or if it was a simple consequence of her reluctance to leave her life quickly. Either she identified too much with the city—and joined it—or she neglected to fully obey God’s warning and she died.  We don't know for sure why God did it.  But I don't fire him for it.

I may not understand all the reasons why He does what He does, but I have more than enough reason to trust Him.  He's earned it.

Patrick

Yes tons, and they all contain lots of 'possibly' and 'likely' disclaimers with a heavy helping of car salesmanship. But I will concede – for argument's sake, let's just say you are absolutely correct. Why hasn't your God guided the hands of the translators to accurately reflect his intent in the bibles that millions of people now have? Did he work tirelessly to have the books of the bible preserved through all those long years, only to give up and allow modern man to muck up and mis-translate his work? Certainly the almighty couldn't be impeded by simple linguistic limitations?

To further drive that point home, different flavors of Christianity have VERY different takes on what they believe (Confession, trinity, hell, saints, rapture, etc. ). You and one of the other Christians reading this thread almost certainly disagree on some fundamental basis of your belief. Which one of you is going to hell? Why doesn't your God help you (or the other guy) see the one truth? Why isn't it made crystal clear?


'42 of the youth' could mean that there were 43 or there were 10,000. There is not enough information to state that 'there was a much bigger demonstration involved' or explicitly stating that there were 200-300. You can debate how many there were all you want, but two things are true: You're puling the number out of your butt, and more importantly, God still had 43 PEOPLE MURDERED FOR INSULTING HIS PROPHET. Which brings me to your next point:


Is this all-powerful, kind and loving being really limited to just two extreme and fatal options? Either murdering a whole mess of people, or by allowing them to murder his prophet? (and FYI, there is ZERO indication in the text that they threatened or intended bodily harm). He couldn't have scared them off with a lightning strike or a strong wind or a divine pronouncement? They just had to be mauled to death by bears? Remember too, that this isn't the modern day god that is camera shy, this is the OT God that was getting shit done, knocking down walls and killing firstborn sons. Apparently god did whatever he wanted in his book, but you can't convince me that it was the right or moral option.


It's not an issue of my understanding and I have no problem with God murdering Lot's wife, he can kill all number of defiant fictional women for all I care. What I do take issue with is that the IMMEDIATE punishment for one crime is instantaneous death, while the actions of Jephtha and Lot don't even garner a verbal rebuke.

And to be clear, I'm not judging or indicting God. I've reviewed the evidence (the bible) and deduced that it is very much the work of man, actually, many different, unknown men that lived in a very small part of the world. There are valuable moral messages in Greek and Egyptian mythology as well, doesn't mean I'm hoping on salvation from Zeus or Ra.

I'd really like to roll right in to a discussion of the moral message in God's tacit approval of slavery, but it's been a long day.