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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:20:03 PM EDT
[#1]
NCIS are federal agents, they are augmented by a few uniformed persons
However there jurisdiction involves threats or crimes against DoN personnel, facilities and equipment |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:22:31 PM EDT
[#2]
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They are Navy and not all NCIS personnel are civilian. Regardless whether civilian or in uniform, NCIS is military. In this case, they were clearly outside their jurisdiction. If this were an isolated incident, the conviction may have been upheld, but this is apparently part of a pattern of behavior. Blind squirrels and even the 9th Circuit occasionally find a nut. We're either a nation of laws or we're no better than a banana republic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For starters are all NCIS agents civilians? They are a Federal law enforcement agency, civilians. Blind squirrels and even the 9th Circuit occasionally find a nut. We're either a nation of laws or we're no better than a banana republic. Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy. They do have a few uniformed members under program that trained and qualified MPs (I believe a few MAs also) go to work them as special agents |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:32:43 PM EDT
[#3]
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There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise...  There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:39:39 PM EDT
[#4]
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The forth reads "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise... There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. The fact you possess contraband and are making it freely available is the crime. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:44:24 PM EDT
[#5]
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy. 
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:48:38 PM EDT
[#6]
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Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. The fact you possess contraband and are making it freely available is the crime. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise... There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. The fact you possess contraband and are making it freely available is the crime. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:51:22 PM EDT
[#7]
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It seems to me that kiddie porn laws are big.gov's most powerful weapon to rid itself of those it deems undesirable. How much easier can it be to lock someone up for a decade or two than drop a file onto his laptop? It seemed that way to the Brits too. It would be a shame if someone leaked info on their program to do exactly that. Oh wait, nevermind. The real question here - is our government as big a bunch of assholes as theirs is? |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:52:19 PM EDT
[#8]
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Did he or did he not search the computers of civilians not affiliated with the US Navy or DOD ??? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:He Searched for people in Washington State, within 30 miles of "Federal Way" trading P2P files on Gnutella containing specific known indicators of kiddie porn. The Navy has a presence in the area.
Did he or did he not search the computers of civilians not affiliated with the US Navy or DOD ??? He did not. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:55:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It seems to me that kiddie porn laws are big.gov's most powerful weapon to rid itself of those it deems undesirable. How much easier can it be to lock someone up for a decade or two than drop a file onto his laptop? Yep. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:55:50 PM EDT
[#10]
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From the Seattle Times,“it has become a routine practice for the Navy to conduct surveillance of all the civilian computers in an entire state to see whether any child pornography can be found on them, and then to turn over that information to civilian law enforcement when no military connection exists.” Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise... There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. The fact you possess contraband and are making it freely available is the crime. How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:57:54 PM EDT
[#11]
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How would NCIS violate Posse Comitatus? They aren't military personnel. There is a SCOTUS decision (iirc) which says PCA applies to them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 8:58:42 PM EDT
[#12]
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Here's a good essay about people like you. i.e., those who value public order over freedom; weak-minded people who desire the sense of security that oppressive government provides: http://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/ I'm guessing that you would probably support gun confiscation as well, for sense of public safety it would provide. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Once I read that it was a 9th Circus decision I made my mind up. I don't have an issue with what happened. Here's a good essay about people like you. i.e., those who value public order over freedom; weak-minded people who desire the sense of security that oppressive government provides: http://harpers.org/archive/1941/08/who-goes-nazi/ I'm guessing that you would probably support gun confiscation as well, for sense of public safety it would provide. Godwin's law...... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:08:12 PM EDT
[#13]
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Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. Close, but not quite. The discovery of this crime was not serendipitous (i.e., "just walking by when I saw it happening"). It's more like the Naval investigator went to an area known for crack houses in the middle of the state far away from a naval base and well outside his authority specifically to listen for the idiot yelling "FREE CRACK!" then passing the finding to the proper authority. This is the very behavior the PCA prohibits. Quoted:
The fact you possess contraband and are making it freely available is the crime. No doubt, but the evidence of the crime has to be collected legally. Had the NCIS investigator found this kiddie porn linked to or from within Navy networks and then passed the information to a civilian LE agency for further investigation, I highly doubt any of this thread would exist. I'd also like to point out that even the dissenting opinion agreed that the PCA was violated and only disagreed with applying the exclusionary rule. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:17:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryHow do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:19:47 PM EDT
[#15]
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<a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/user/smlnbndt/media/Forum%20Posts/wikipedian_protester_zps77d7beac.png.html" target="_blank">http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k397/smlnbndt/Forum%20Posts/wikipedian_protester_zps77d7beac.png</a> Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dupe <a href="http://s325.photobucket.com/user/smlnbndt/media/Forum%20Posts/wikipedian_protester_zps77d7beac.png.html" target="_blank">http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k397/smlnbndt/Forum%20Posts/wikipedian_protester_zps77d7beac.png</a>  . Indeed.
And anyone else thinking this... I find it interesting that the 9th is taking the position that NCIS can't search civilian computers on the "chance" that the computer might belong to someone in the military. But they don't say anything about any other alphabet-company searching civilian computers on the "chance" that they might find something? |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:21:53 PM EDT
[#16]
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Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:22:25 PM EDT
[#17]
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Close, but not quite. The discovery of this crime was not serendipitous (i.e., "just walking by when I saw it happening"). It's more like the Naval investigator went to an area known for crack houses in the middle of the state far away from a naval base and well outside his authority specifically to listen for the idiot yelling "FREE CRACK!" then passing the finding to the proper authority. This is the very behavior the PCA prohibits. No doubt, but the evidence of the crime has to be collected legally. Had the NCIS investigator found this kiddie porn linked to or from within Navy networks and then passed the information to a civilian LE agency for further investigation, I highly doubt any of this thread would exist. I'd also like to point out that even the dissenting opinion agreed that the PCA was violated and only disagreed with applying the exclusionary rule. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Like has been posted already, they did not search a civilian's computer without a warrant. The guy who got arrested made child porn available for download by anyone who happened along. This is akin to you standing in your house and leaning out the window holding a bag of crack and yelling "FREE CRACK FOR WHOEVER WANTS IT!" while a cop happens to be walking by. Close, but not quite. The discovery of this crime was not serendipitous (i.e., "just walking by when I saw it happening"). It's more like the Naval investigator went to an area known for crack houses in the middle of the state far away from a naval base and well outside his authority specifically to listen for the idiot yelling "FREE CRACK!" then passing the finding to the proper authority. This is the very behavior the PCA prohibits. Quoted:
The fact you possess contraband and are making it freely available is the crime. No doubt, but the evidence of the crime has to be collected legally. Had the NCIS investigator found this kiddie porn linked to or from within Navy networks and then passed the information to a civilian LE agency for further investigation, I highly doubt any of this thread would exist. I'd also like to point out that even the dissenting opinion agreed that the PCA was violated and only disagreed with applying the exclusionary rule. I concede my "walking past the crack house analogy" is not accurate; the Agent was definitely looking for crack in a known crack neighborhood. However, the part I highlighted in red is where your response confuses me...is this not exactly what the agent did? As I understand it, the NCIS agent found evidence of a crime and sent a lead to the responsible civilian LE agency who arrested the guy suspected of distributing Child Porn. No investigation or arrest was conducted by NCIS against a civilian. Unless I greatly misunderstand multiple articles and internal memos I have read about this case. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:23:52 PM EDT
[#18]
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Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. And when you make files (of any type) available for download by anyone who happens along, you are doing that "in public." |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:24:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Educate yourselves on how this works
The software does not allow law officers to hack into an individual''s private computer, Levine and Liberatore are quick to point out. It simply provides law enforcement with an "optimized interface for observation" which allows an investigator to watch the open activities of remote peers on the network. It''s a situation they liken to a police officer observing a drug transaction on a street corner. "It''s not magic and it''s not hacking," says Levine. "This allows regular shoe-leather, routine police work, the steps of which can be tracked and verified just as in any other search for evidence."
The software is used by law enforcement officials who pair it with a watch list of files of interest. RoundUp alerts investigators when p2p users announce they are sharing such files. A unique aspect of the RoundUp system is its ability to aggregate information discovered by investigators using the software in one place. Using the aggregate data, the ICAC Task Forces are able to track the volume of online child pornography trafficking on an almost hourly basis. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:26:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Educate yourselves on how this works The software does not allow law officers to hack into an individual''s private computer, Levine and Liberatore are quick to point out. It simply provides law enforcement with an "optimized interface for observation" which allows an investigator to watch the open activities of remote peers on the network. It''s a situation they liken to a police officer observing a drug transaction on a street corner. "It''s not magic and it''s not hacking," says Levine. "This allows regular shoe-leather, routine police work, the steps of which can be tracked and verified just as in any other search for evidence."
The software is used by law enforcement officials who pair it with a watch list of files of interest. RoundUp alerts investigators when p2p users announce they are sharing such files. A unique aspect of the RoundUp system is its ability to aggregate information discovered by investigators using the software in one place. Using the aggregate data, the ICAC Task Forces are able to track the volume of online child pornography trafficking on an almost hourly basis. tl;dr Learning is for suckas. 
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:28:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Educate yourselves on how this works The software does not allow law officers to hack into an individual''s private computer, Levine and Liberatore are quick to point out. It simply provides law enforcement with an "optimized interface for observation" which allows an investigator to watch the open activities of remote peers on the network. It''s a situation they liken to a police officer observing a drug transaction on a street corner. "It''s not magic and it''s not hacking," says Levine. "This allows regular shoe-leather, routine police work, the steps of which can be tracked and verified just as in any other search for evidence."
The software is used by law enforcement officials who pair it with a watch list of files of interest. RoundUp alerts investigators when p2p users announce they are sharing such files. A unique aspect of the RoundUp system is its ability to aggregate information discovered by investigators using the software in one place. Using the aggregate data, the ICAC Task Forces are able to track the volume of online child pornography trafficking on an almost hourly basis. This. Computer is dying, signing off for the night. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:37:00 PM EDT
[#22]
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In 24 years, I've never seen one wearig a uniform. All of the agents who work with or for me are civies, on and off ship. http://www.ncis.navy.mil/Pages/publicdefault.aspx Quote HistoryQuoted:
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NCIS is not the military They are DoN civilians - akin to FBI For starters are all NCIS agents civilians? In 24 years, I've never seen one wearig a uniform. All of the agents who work with or for me are civies, on and off ship. http://www.ncis.navy.mil/Pages/publicdefault.aspx It doesn't fucking matter. They are part of the NAVY. It;s NOT the Navy's job to police or spy upon American Civilians. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:38:01 PM EDT
[#23]
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Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! I'm waiting for one of the GD "Experts" to ask what Nutella has to do with the 4th amendment. 
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:38:20 PM EDT
[#24]
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However, the part I highlighted in red is where your response confuses me...is this not exactly what the agent did? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No doubt, but the evidence of the crime has to be collected legally. Had the NCIS investigator found this kiddie porn linked to or from within Navy networks and then passed the information to a civilian LE agency for further investigation, I highly doubt any of this thread would exist. However, the part I highlighted in red is where your response confuses me...is this not exactly what the agent did? Not even close. See below. As I understand it, the NCIS agent found evidence of a crime... By specifying search criteria of "entire state of Washington." This was not "originating from IP range belonging to DoD/Navy." No investigation or arrest was conducted by NCIS against a civilian. Unless I greatly misunderstand multiple articles and internal memos I have read about this case. The initial search was the real issue. Nonetheless, he did conduct enough of an investigation to determine who the target was and that he was outside the agent's authority. From the ruling: But Agent Logan’s search was not reasonably focused on carrying out such a legitimate military investigation. NCIS is authorized to investigate criminal operations that “significantly affect the naval establishment.” SECNAVINST 5430.107(3)(c), 7(b)(2). Agent Logan understood that he did not have the authority to search any location, but had to limit his searches to areas where there was “a Department of Navy interest.” Yet, Agent Logan’s search did not meet the required limitation. He surveyed the entire state of Washington for computers sharing child pornography. His initial search was not limited to United States military or government computers, and, as the government acknowledged, Agent Logan had no idea whether the computers searched belonged to someone with any “affiliation with the military at all.” Instead, it was his “standard practice to monitor all computers in a geographic area,” here, every computer in the state of Washington. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 9:40:56 PM EDT
[#25]
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Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! Answer the following questions for me, I will give you something to think about while you are answering. Was there a public list of people that had visited Dreyer’s website site? I don't think so, to get a list one would have to search his computer with a warrant, or go to the internet provider with a warrant (I see no mention of warrants ) Does the NCIS have the authority to check a private civilian computer in ones home? I don't think so, the FBI, ATF, DEA don't even have that authority without a warrant, yet it happened many times by the NCIS. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 10:44:15 PM EDT
[#26]
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They are Navy and not all NCIS personnel are civilian. Regardless whether civilian or in uniform, NCIS is military. In this case, they were clearly outside their jurisdiction. If this were an isolated incident, the conviction may have been upheld, but this is apparently part of a pattern of behavior. Blind squirrels and even the 9th Circuit occasionally find a nut. We're either a nation of laws or we're no better than a banana republic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For starters are all NCIS agents civilians? They are a Federal law enforcement agency, civilians. Blind squirrels and even the 9th Circuit occasionally find a nut. We're either a nation of laws or we're no better than a banana republic. NCIS personnel are civilians. Army CID and others have a mix of civilians and military personnel. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 10:45:57 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy.
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. Right there in blue. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 10:46:53 PM EDT
[#28]
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Answer the following questions for me, I will give you something to think about while you are answering. Was there a public list of people that had visited Dreyer’s website site? I don't think so, to get a list one would have to search his computer with a warrant, or go to the internet provider with a warrant (I see no mention of warrants ) Does the NCIS have the authority to check a private civilian computer in ones home? I don't think so, the FBI, ATF, DEA don't even have that authority without a warrant, yet it happened many times by the NCIS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! Answer the following questions for me, I will give you something to think about while you are answering. Was there a public list of people that had visited Dreyer’s website site? I don't think so, to get a list one would have to search his computer with a warrant, or go to the internet provider with a warrant (I see no mention of warrants ) Does the NCIS have the authority to check a private civilian computer in ones home? I don't think so, the FBI, ATF, DEA don't even have that authority without a warrant, yet it happened many times by the NCIS. And you just continue to proclaim your complete lack of understanding. No surprise. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 10:47:36 PM EDT
[#29]
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It doesn't fucking matter. They are part of the NAVY. It;s NOT the Navy's job to police or spy upon American Civilians. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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NCIS is not the military They are DoN civilians - akin to FBI For starters are all NCIS agents civilians? In 24 years, I've never seen one wearig a uniform. All of the agents who work with or for me are civies, on and off ship. http://www.ncis.navy.mil/Pages/publicdefault.aspx It doesn't fucking matter. They are part of the NAVY. It;s NOT the Navy's job to police or spy upon American Civilians. This right here nails it. It doesn't matter what was being done. The agent broke the law. No different then a deputy setting up a radar gun outside his jurisdiction or a SWAT team doing a warrant on the next town over. When Law Enforcement breaks the law to catch people, they should be held accountable. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 10:47:46 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:From the Seattle Times,“it has become a routine practice for the Navy to conduct surveillance of all the civilian computers in an entire state to see whether any child pornography can be found on them, and then to turn over that information to civilian law enforcement when no military connection exists.”
So, now we trust the media to tell us what is going on? |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 10:52:38 PM EDT
[#31]
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So, now we trust the media to tell us what is going on? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:From the Seattle Times,“it has become a routine practice for the Navy to conduct surveillance of all the civilian computers in an entire state to see whether any child pornography can be found on them, and then to turn over that information to civilian law enforcement when no military connection exists.”
So, now we trust the media to tell us what is going on? Well, would you trust NCIS with your ICloud password? |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 11:29:55 PM EDT
[#32]
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And you just continue to proclaim your complete lack of understanding. No surprise. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How do you think they "conduct surveillance" on computers? They trawl servers such as Gnutella for users who make Child pornography available for download. Again using the narcotics analogy, this is like a police officer watching a crowd of people at a concert and arresting the guy who is walking around with a huge handful of crack rocks, offering them to all who want some. Your analogy is bad. They searched many civilian computers without a warrant and, that is a crime. In your narcotics analogy things were done in public, what is on my computer in my home is private and covered by the forth amendment to the US constitution. Yet another person fails to understand the Gnutella network and someone willingly sharing files containing illegal content across it publicly. Bravo! Answer the following questions for me, I will give you something to think about while you are answering. Was there a public list of people that had visited Dreyer’s website site? I don't think so, to get a list one would have to search his computer with a warrant, or go to the internet provider with a warrant (I see no mention of warrants ) Does the NCIS have the authority to check a private civilian computer in ones home? I don't think so, the FBI, ATF, DEA don't even have that authority without a warrant, yet it happened many times by the NCIS. And you just continue to proclaim your complete lack of understanding. No surprise. 
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Posted: 9/18/2014 11:30:44 PM EDT
[#33]
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Well, would you trust NCIS with your ICloud password? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:From the Seattle Times,“it has become a routine practice for the Navy to conduct surveillance of all the civilian computers in an entire state to see whether any child pornography can be found on them, and then to turn over that information to civilian law enforcement when no military connection exists.”
So, now we trust the media to tell us what is going on? Well, would you trust NCIS with your ICloud password? Not the point, now is it. 
The information was out in the public domain, no password needed. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 11:39:02 PM EDT
[#34]
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Right there in blue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy.
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. Right there in blue. As a matter of law and DoD policy, they represent the military, report to military leadership, are in effect military, and are subject to PCA constraints. The uniform is irrelevant. |
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Posted: 9/18/2014 11:47:04 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 9/18/2014 11:49:20 PM EDT
[#36]
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as a IT nerd I wonder how much juries know about what consists of "chain of custody " with said computer evidence Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It seems to me that kiddie porn laws are big.gov's most powerful weapon to rid itself of those it deems undesirable. How much easier can it be to lock someone up for a decade or two than drop a file onto his laptop? We have been speculating about that here for a while now. I think you are right. as a IT nerd I wonder how much juries know about what consists of "chain of custody " with said computer evidence Juries have no fucking beginning of a comprehension of anything regarding computer evidence, and that's exactly how prosecutors want it. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 12:12:50 AM EDT
[#37]
3rd page and this hasn't been posted yet?
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Posted: 9/19/2014 3:24:04 AM EDT
[#38]
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There is a SCOTUS decision (iirc) which says PCA applies to them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How would NCIS violate Posse Comitatus? They aren't military personnel. There is a SCOTUS decision (iirc) which says PCA applies to them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile PCA does not apply to the US Navy at all. We apply it to ourselves as a matter of policy, but the law itself does not apply, by its text or precedent. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 3:24:17 AM EDT
[#39]
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The forth reads "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise... There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. No, NCIS did not search anyone's computer. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 3:59:20 AM EDT
[#40]
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No, NCIS did not search anyone's computer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise... There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. No, NCIS did not search anyone's computer. Say what you want..but 3 judges who know far more about what the NCIS guy did then you do, say that he broke the law..so you might just need a refresher class on the law....but thats just 3 judges opinion...right? |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 4:13:55 AM EDT
[#41]
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Say what you want..but 3 judges who know far more about what the NCIS guy did then you do, say that he broke the law..so you might just need a refresher class on the law....but thats just 3 judges opinion...right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I see no reference in the article to Logan, the NCIS agent involved, being arrested for massive 4th Amendment violations. Surprise, surprise... There were no violations of the 4th. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They searched a civilians computer without a warrant, NCIS can search military peoples computers without a warrant not a civilians, in fact it looks like they searched many civilians computers without a warrant. No, NCIS did not search anyone's computer. Say what you want..but 3 judges who know far more about what the NCIS guy did then you do, say that he broke the law..so you might just need a refresher class on the law....but thats just 3 judges opinion...right? To quote the US Attorney in the article: "The U.S. Attorney’s Office is considering asking the case be reheard by the entire Court of Appeals. U.S. Attorney Jenny Durkan, whose office prosecuted Dreyer and argued the appeal, said Wednesday it is possible the court misunderstood some of the technology the agent was using and the scope of his searches." Durkan is correct. The court does not understand the technology at all. I do. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 6:04:22 AM EDT
[#42]
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In 24 years, I've never seen one wearig a uniform. All of the agents who work with or for me are civies, on and off ship. http://www.ncis.navy.mil/Pages/publicdefault.aspx Quote HistoryQuoted:
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NCIS is not the military They are DoN civilians - akin to FBI For starters are all NCIS agents civilians? In 24 years, I've never seen one wearig a uniform. All of the agents who work with or for me are civies, on and off ship. http://www.ncis.navy.mil/Pages/publicdefault.aspx NCIS has enlisted agents and comissioned officer agents. They all wear civies. As far as I understand only the civilian agents have full federal LE powers akin to the FBI. The commisioned and enlisted agents powers are limited to federal property. about 12-13yrs ago at NAS atlanta I let the base NCIS agent (a senior cheif) use my office to do a porn investigation. He needed to catalog and describe each file and wanted to do it away from the MA shop. It was all scat porn. I sat outside the door and worked from the conference table. For 2 days all I heard was "uggggh"....."my god"....."aww sweet jesus". Sometimes he would call for me to come look. I wouldnt. Poor guy aged 5yrs in those 2 days |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 6:11:46 AM EDT
[#43]
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy.
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. So you considers civilians not subject to the UCMJ military? How about the janitors that work on base or civilians who work at serve mart? That is a special interpretation, when I say special, I mean short bus special |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:13:42 AM EDT
[#44]
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To quote the US Attorney in the article: "The U.S. Attorney’s Office is considering asking the case be reheard by the entire Court of Appeals. U.S. Attorney Jenny Durkan, whose office prosecuted Dreyer and argued the appeal, said Wednesday it is possible the court misunderstood some of the technology the agent was using and the scope of his searches." Durkan is correct. The court does not understand the technology at all. I do. That is the only thing I can think of that makes sense. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:14:55 AM EDT
[#45]
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As a matter of law and DoD policy, they represent the military, report to military leadership, are in effect military, and are subject to PCA constraints. The uniform is irrelevant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy.
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. Right there in blue. As a matter of law and DoD policy, they represent the military, report to military leadership, are in effect military, and are subject to PCA constraints. The uniform is irrelevant. But they are not military personnel, NOT subject to UCMJ. You so desperately want this to be true.
As others have noted, there has been no Constitutional violation in this whole deal and no PC violation. There are plenty of legit violations going on right now. This ain't one of them. Get over it. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:17:40 AM EDT
[#46]
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There is a SCOTUS decision (iirc) which says PCA applies to them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How would NCIS violate Posse Comitatus? They aren't military personnel. There is a SCOTUS decision (iirc) which says PCA applies to them. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Cite? |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:19:11 AM EDT
[#47]
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So you considers civilians not subject to the UCMJ military? How about the janitors that work on base or civilians who work at serve mart? That is a special interpretation, when I say special, I mean short bus special Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy.
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. So you considers civilians not subject to the UCMJ military? How about the janitors that work on base or civilians who work at serve mart? That is a special interpretation, when I say special, I mean short bus special Yeah, somebody should tell those Blackwater guys on trial for murder that UCMJ doesn't apply. |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:21:42 AM EDT
[#48]
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Yeah, somebody should tell those Blackwater guys on trial for murder that UCMJ doesn't apply. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Actually they are not military, they worked under the authority of the Sec Navy but are not Navy.
From their own site: As the felony investigative arm of the Department of the Navy (DON), NCIS civilian Special Agents have investigative responsibility within the DON for all crimes punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice by confinement of more than one year. The agency also frequently conducts felony investigations under the criminal laws of the United States when DON equities are involved. So you considers civilians not subject to the UCMJ military? How about the janitors that work on base or civilians who work at serve mart? That is a special interpretation, when I say special, I mean short bus special Yeah, somebody should tell those Blackwater guys on trial for murder that UCMJ doesn't apply. They aren't being tried under UCMJ. Are they being tried by a military court? |
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:22:20 AM EDT
[#49]
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Say what you want..but 3 judges who know far more about what the NCIS guy did then you do, say that he broke the law..so you might just need a refresher class on the law....but thats just 3 judges opinion...right? 
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Posted: 9/19/2014 7:28:57 AM EDT
[#50]
They are being tried under the Military Extra-Territorial Jurisdiction Act...functionally, anywhere the US Military is engaged, both the UCMJ and US Code applies...even to people not in the US Military and to people not employed by the USG.
Its shady and vague law that I question in terms of legal reach. |
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