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Posted: 8/29/2014 3:12:26 PM EDT
[#1]
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Interesting. How is any punitive actions for violating the rules amount to being "thrown under the bus"? Yeah, when people break the law its "just obey the law and you won't have the man in your life", but when they're on the receiving end its "But ... but ... but .... we weren't trained properly. It's someone else's fault." It's the TBL version of "mah baby din't do nuffin". How do you feel about ATF deciding what is legal and what's not after guns are in circulation? Interpretation after the fact... You seem ok with it when it's Police UoF...so you should likewise be fine either whatever "rules" a regulatory agency decides apply after the fact 
A vague UoF policy is a threat to anyone using it. http://talkrational.org/images/smilies/goalposts2.gif Truth hurts. Can't have it both ways. You want interpretive policy...you get all of it. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 3:43:26 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did you read the policy? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Having worked under a consent decree, all I can say is stop the crying. You voted to allow the consent decree and not fight the DOJ. Get over it. Yes it adds a couple more pieces of paper and there is more tracking of Use of Force incidents. Hasn't changed the way I work. Did you read the policy? Nothing earth shattering. Looks like business as usual to me. Just for the record, since becoming a cop I have more than 100 documented Uses of Force. Never been sued (except by a subordinate), indicted, or otherwise been thrown under the bus. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 3:46:45 PM EDT
[#3]
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Yes. Nothing earth shattering. Looks like business as usual to me. Just for the record, since becoming a cop I have more than 100 documented Uses of Force. Never been sued (except by a subordinate), indicted, or otherwise been thrown under the bus. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Having worked under a consent decree, all I can say is stop the crying. You voted to allow the consent decree and not fight the DOJ. Get over it. Yes it adds a couple more pieces of paper and there is more tracking of Use of Force incidents. Hasn't changed the way I work. Did you read the policy? Nothing earth shattering. Looks like business as usual to me. Just for the record, since becoming a cop I have more than 100 documented Uses of Force. Never been sued (except by a subordinate), indicted, or otherwise been thrown under the bus. According to some LEO's here that is impossible. "The man" is always out to get them! |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 3:50:28 PM EDT
[#4]
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Nothing earth shattering. Looks like business as usual to me. Just for the record, since becoming a cop I have more than 100 documented Uses of Force. Never been sued (except by a subordinate), indicted, or otherwise been thrown under the bus. I think you'd fit in around here. How can we entice you to move to Utah? 
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Posted: 8/29/2014 3:56:49 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think you'd fit in around here. How can we entice you to move to Utah? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nothing earth shattering. Looks like business as usual to me. Just for the record, since becoming a cop I have more than 100 documented Uses of Force. Never been sued (except by a subordinate), indicted, or otherwise been thrown under the bus. I think you'd fit in around here. How can we entice you to move to Utah? |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 3:58:15 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I saw in another article, the UOF policy was made so long, complicated and even contradictory that its basically impossible to understand. Which may be by design so that any use of force incident can be used against the officer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: TL;DR... what are the policies in question? From what I saw in another article, the UOF policy was made so long, complicated and even contradictory that its basically impossible to understand. Which may be by design so that any use of force incident can be used against the officer. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:17:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WAY back in the day, Seattle PD had the rep of being some hard, pipe hitting mofos. Now, they are too scared of the brass and mayors office to do much more than the bare minimum. The shooting of the woodcarver a few years ago really fucked the dept. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: TL;DR... what are the policies in question? From what I saw in another article, the UOF policy was made so long, complicated and even contradictory that its basically impossible to understand. Which may be by design so that any use of force incident can be used against the officer. The cop hating city attorney definitely doesn't help matters. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:18:36 PM EDT
[#8]
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Not sure who to believe here, StevenH, who says the Seattle PD hasn't been using force inappropriately, or the "Police Department auditors, a review board, blue-ribbon commissions and plaintiff’s attorneys, among others". Hmm, this is a tough one, I just can't decide which side is more credible.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The report also stated that a relatively small percentage of officers are responsible for a disproportionate number of incidents where force was used, and it criticized the department for not recognizing the pattern. Hopefully those are the ones that quit. Those would be called swing shift and night shift on weekends. Amazing they use more force than the school resourse officer at the elementary school tuedsday through friday.  Not sure who to believe here, StevenH, who says the Seattle PD hasn't been using force inappropriately, or the "Police Department auditors, a review board, blue-ribbon commissions and plaintiff’s attorneys, among others". Hmm, this is a tough one, I just can't decide which side is more credible. Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:21:33 PM EDT
[#9]
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I love this thread!!! Since JBTs have no duty to protect citizens, why should we give a flying fuck what restrictions are put on them? Of course the city needs to weigh the cost of reduced revenue vs. the lower cost of labor. Little babies don't like it, they can work somewhere else like millions of folks in the private sector. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You're such a tough guy. Do you have a newsletter? I want to be rugged, manly and un-needing of the world too. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:21:39 PM EDT
[#10]
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Why don't you just write a policy that says "Do the Right thing". Then, after you use it, we will let Al Sharpton decide what right is. Don't like it? Throw away your career, impoverish your family, leave your fellow LEOs behind, and run away like a bitch. Great plan
It's like talking to 12 year olds. Is school out? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Policy must be simple. It must be easy to understand. Change should be gradual and infrequent. The department should train to the policy before using it to throw officers under the bus. The linked policy is not something you can read and immediately impliment. They should have days of scenario training where they reveiw the officers actions at the end of the scenario and show him each place he violated the new policy (by doing it the old way he was trained). Once the scenario training results shows that the officers really understand and can impliment the policy. Then and only then should anyone be thrown under the bus for breaking the new policy. Interesting. How is any punitive actions for violating the rules amount to being "thrown under the bus"? they have to be smart enough to comprehend what the document says. then they have to be smart enough to implement it. Being an authority figure normally does not require these skills. doing what you want and making up shit as you go along is the norm. It would be a bitch to have to think on the job, and be held accountable for their actions. If they weren't fucking up on a regular basis, they wouldn't be subjected to the changes. Find a new job, if you don't like it. Why don't you just write a policy that says "Do the Right thing". Then, after you use it, we will let Al Sharpton decide what right is. Don't like it? Throw away your career, impoverish your family, leave your fellow LEOs behind, and run away like a bitch. Great plan
It's like talking to 12 year olds. Is school out? Nobody knows the trouble I've seen, Nobody knows my sorrroooooowwww....  
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:23:38 PM EDT
[#11]
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:29:00 PM EDT
[#12]
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure who to believe here, StevenH, who says the Seattle PD hasn't been using force inappropriately, or the "Police Department auditors, a review board, blue-ribbon commissions and plaintiff’s attorneys, among others". Hmm, this is a tough one, I just can't decide which side is more credible. Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. In the age of video cameras almost everywhere, we don't just have to take the word of witnesses. We can (often) see at least one point of view of the event for ourselves. IMO, Seattle PD has really stepped in it, and are finally getting reined in a bit (not very much in my eyes), and they are complaining about it more than a troop of Girl Scouts. It's mildly entertaining to watch. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:29:41 PM EDT
[#13]
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Why don't you just write a policy that says "Do the Right thing". Then, after you use it, we will let Al Sharpton decide what right is. Don't like it? Throw away your career, impoverish your family, leave your fellow LEOs behind, and run away like a bitch. Great plan
It's like talking to 12 year olds. Is school out? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Policy must be simple. It must be easy to understand. Change should be gradual and infrequent. The department should train to the policy before using it to throw officers under the bus. The linked policy is not something you can read and immediately impliment. They should have days of scenario training where they reveiw the officers actions at the end of the scenario and show him each place he violated the new policy (by doing it the old way he was trained). Once the scenario training results shows that the officers really understand and can impliment the policy. Then and only then should anyone be thrown under the bus for breaking the new policy. Interesting. How is any punitive actions for violating the rules amount to being "thrown under the bus"? they have to be smart enough to comprehend what the document says. then they have to be smart enough to implement it. Being an authority figure normally does not require these skills. doing what you want and making up shit as you go along is the norm. It would be a bitch to have to think on the job, and be held accountable for their actions. If they weren't fucking up on a regular basis, they wouldn't be subjected to the changes. Find a new job, if you don't like it. Why don't you just write a policy that says "Do the Right thing". Then, after you use it, we will let Al Sharpton decide what right is. Don't like it? Throw away your career, impoverish your family, leave your fellow LEOs behind, and run away like a bitch. Great plan
It's like talking to 12 year olds. Is school out? Be the one who makes the rules, and not who has to follow them. Sucks, don't it? |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:30:17 PM EDT
[#14]
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Its pretty fucking sad when "journalists" cant spell and grammar check before publising. I wish I owned a paper. I'd fire you andd the editor for that shit. use-of-force polices.. ? really? what a sad fucking state we are in....
So few words, so many errors. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:33:48 PM EDT
[#15]
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That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. Laugh it up now while it's all good. Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:36:48 PM EDT
[#16]
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Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. In all honesty, I'm not sure if that's referring to me, or the DoJ's Civil Rights division. 
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:48:19 PM EDT
[#17]
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Laugh it up now while it's all good. Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. Laugh it up now while it's all good. Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 4:59:45 PM EDT
[#18]
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In all honesty, I'm not sure if that's referring to me, or the DoJ's Civil Rights division. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. In all honesty, I'm not sure if that's referring to me, or the DoJ's Civil Rights division. Whatever camp you want to lay down in. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:02:53 PM EDT
[#19]
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Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. Laugh it up now while it's all good. Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. I would be inclined to agree if we didn't have displays like the Ferguson fiasco. A large segment of the population truly believes it's their right to commit crime then neutralize anyone attempting to stop them, so much so that they take to the streets in celebration of it. If that's the direction the pendulum is headed then I'm going the other direction. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:10:11 PM EDT
[#20]
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Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. "COPS" joke? too soon. 
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:11:26 PM EDT
[#21]
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You're such a tough guy. Do you have a newsletter? I want to be rugged, manly and un-needing of the world too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love this thread!!! Since JBTs have no duty to protect citizens, why should we give a flying fuck what restrictions are put on them? Of course the city needs to weigh the cost of reduced revenue vs. the lower cost of labor. Little babies don't like it, they can work somewhere else like millions of folks in the private sector. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You're such a tough guy. Do you have a newsletter? I want to be rugged, manly and un-needing of the world too. Thank you, I am pretty tough. Once you pay your dues, you can hang out with me. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:14:26 PM EDT
[#22]
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Thank you, I am pretty tough. Once you pay your dues, you can hang out with me. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love this thread!!! Since JBTs have no duty to protect citizens, why should we give a flying fuck what restrictions are put on them? Of course the city needs to weigh the cost of reduced revenue vs. the lower cost of labor. Little babies don't like it, they can work somewhere else like millions of folks in the private sector. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You're such a tough guy. Do you have a newsletter? I want to be rugged, manly and un-needing of the world too. Thank you, I am pretty tough. Once you pay your dues, you can hang out with me. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Does it require broken appendages? That seems scary, and painful. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:17:47 PM EDT
[#23]
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"COPS" joke? too soon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. "COPS" joke? too soon. I wasn't referring to that but maybe it fits. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:27:05 PM EDT
[#24]
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I would be inclined to agree if we didn't have displays like the Ferguson fiasco. A large segment of the population truly believes it's their right to commit crime then neutralize anyone attempting to stop them, so much so that they take to the streets in celebration of it. If that's the direction the pendulum is headed then I'm going the other direction. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. Laugh it up now while it's all good. Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. I would be inclined to agree if we didn't have displays like the Ferguson fiasco. A large segment of the population truly believes it's their right to commit crime then neutralize anyone attempting to stop them, so much so that they take to the streets in celebration of it. If that's the direction the pendulum is headed then I'm going the other direction. This is a perfect description of what the government has been doing for quite some time. We in the private sector have been the victims of their crimes for decades. A few rules for Seattle cops who "were known for being pipe hitters": can't get real worked up about it. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:30:38 PM EDT
[#25]
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I would be inclined to agree if we didn't have displays like the Ferguson fiasco. A large segment of the population truly believes it's their right to commit crime then neutralize anyone attempting to stop them, so much so that they take to the streets in celebration of it. If that's the direction the pendulum is headed then I'm going the other direction. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just remember there genius, these are the same "blue ribbon panel" people who came up with fast and furious and want to strip you of damn near every right you have at a whim. Be careful who you get into political bed with. That is a pretty good sound bite. Getting a lot of play in this thread. Laugh it up now while it's all good. Just realize what we are talking about is a part of the mike brown thug hug factory. Pendulums swing. Push one one way and it'll swing back on you. That's the way the world is. The people pushing sometimes get hit by the pendulum's backswing. Bystanders get hit sometimes too. I would be inclined to agree if we didn't have displays like the Ferguson fiasco. A large segment of the population truly believes it's their right to commit crime then neutralize anyone attempting to stop them, so much so that they take to the streets in celebration of it. If that's the direction the pendulum is headed then I'm going the other direction. The pushing in Ferguson came from many directions-demonstrators wanting some action based on a belief that Michael Brown was dead due to racism of the police, rioters who opportunistically plundered, cops who brought to bear the heaviest response they had, sad sacks like J. Jackson and Farrakhan, Eric Holder, and the poorly managed police departments who used shitty methods and doubled down when they didn't work. This wasn't at all an "A vs. B" situation. It was a confluence of shit and many different groups spewed their shit into the cesspool maelstrom. All of them bear the blame. Not that any one group could have stopped it, but all of them started it. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:32:56 PM EDT
[#26]
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This is a perfect description of what the government has been doing for quite some time. We in the private sector have been the victims of their crimes for decades. A few rules for Seattle cops who "were known for being pipe hitters": can't get real worked up about it. 
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:32:59 PM EDT
[#27]
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Does it require broken appendages? That seems scary, and painful. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I love this thread!!! Since JBTs have no duty to protect citizens, why should we give a flying fuck what restrictions are put on them? Of course the city needs to weigh the cost of reduced revenue vs. the lower cost of labor. Little babies don't like it, they can work somewhere else like millions of folks in the private sector. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile You're such a tough guy. Do you have a newsletter? I want to be rugged, manly and un-needing of the world too. Thank you, I am pretty tough. Once you pay your dues, you can hang out with me. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Does it require broken appendages? That seems scary, and painful. You bet it does. I have had 20 major broken bones. I couldn't even count the little ones; fingers, toes, nose, etc. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:50:04 PM EDT
[#28]
I hate to say this, but it sounds like Seattle PD's UOF policy was from the 80's. This new policy is pretty much what every department in my area is doing and has been for a decade.
http://www.seattle.gov/police/compliance/finished_policy/Use_of_Force_Policy_11_27_2013.pdf I'd be willing to bet most of this drama extends from the fact that they are dealing with rioters and violent protesters DAILY in downtown Seattle. I saw it myself when I was there. They are ridiculous. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 5:53:33 PM EDT
[#29]
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This is a perfect description of what the government has been doing for quite some time. We in the private sector have been the victims of their crimes for decades. A few rules for Seattle cops who "were known for being pipe hitters": can't get real worked up about it. http://i1372.photobucket.com/albums/ag337/SeanC/fampf_zps98ea9d92.jpg I'll see your Fast and Furious and raise you One Waco! 
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Posted: 8/29/2014 6:03:32 PM EDT
[#30]
If your job gives you discretion to use force, or deadly force, you ought to not be surprised when others rein in your authorization to use it if that authority has been abused.
What constitutes 'abuse' isn't up to the people who are being reined in. It's up to the people with the power to confer the authority. The people who can confer that authority are the populace, not the police. For this sort of reaction to occur the police either really shit the bed on their own or utterly failed to wash the sheets after numerous wet farts. Don't give a shit about any pensions. Yeah, they are part of the comp. package but it's like a real company. If they fuck up enough to be shut down, the pension goes out the window too. It's a good perk, but it isn't gold plated and that's how life is. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 6:12:55 PM EDT
[#31]
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I hate to say this, but it sounds like Seattle PD's UOF policy was from the 80's. This new policy is pretty much what every department in my area is doing and has been for a decade. http://www.seattle.gov/police/compliance/finished_policy/Use_of_Force_Policy_11_27_2013.pdf I'd be willing to bet most of this drama extends from the fact that they are dealing with rioters and violent protesters DAILY in downtown Seattle. I saw it myself when I was there. They are ridiculous. That policy is a civil liability nightmare. It is vague to the point of being contradictory. Define respect...professionalism...and so forth. That's a mission statement, not a policy. A UoF policy should be a simple force continuum(that you can skip steps on), a list of approved tools, methods of use, and about 5 sentences on objective reasonableness. Wordy policy opens you up to prosecution and civil liability. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 6:29:50 PM EDT
[#32]
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I cannot find one specific example in the whole story. That's ridiculous. I will say though that if the feds are running your dept by consent decree then you are fucked. Meh, ROD until pension time. |
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Posted: 8/29/2014 6:31:32 PM EDT
[#33]
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That policy is a civil liability nightmare. It is vague to the point of being contradictory. Define respect...professionalism...and so forth. That's a mission statement, not a policy. A UoF policy should be a simple force continuum(that you can skip steps on), a list of approved tools, methods of use, and about 5 sentences on objective reasonableness. Wordy policy opens you up to prosecution and civil liability. Quite a few people think this is what Seattle PD needs. They tried it your way and made a mess of it, so now they'll get to try it this way. Should have policed themselves better I guess. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 8:09:21 AM EDT
[#34]
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That policy is a civil liability nightmare. It is vague to the point of being contradictory. Define respect...professionalism...and so forth. That's a mission statement, not a policy. A UoF policy should be a simple force continuum(that you can skip steps on), a list of approved tools, methods of use, and about 5 sentences on objective reasonableness. Wordy policy opens you up to prosecution and civil liability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I hate to say this, but it sounds like Seattle PD's UOF policy was from the 80's. This new policy is pretty much what every department in my area is doing and has been for a decade. http://www.seattle.gov/police/compliance/finished_policy/Use_of_Force_Policy_11_27_2013.pdf I'd be willing to bet most of this drama extends from the fact that they are dealing with rioters and violent protesters DAILY in downtown Seattle. I saw it myself when I was there. They are ridiculous. That policy is a civil liability nightmare. It is vague to the point of being contradictory. Define respect...professionalism...and so forth. That's a mission statement, not a policy. A UoF policy should be a simple force continuum(that you can skip steps on), a list of approved tools, methods of use, and about 5 sentences on objective reasonableness. Wordy policy opens you up to prosecution and civil liability. I don't see much difference between it and what all the major departments in my area have been using for the last decade. Just because there are some huggy words in there doesn't seem to change what you can and cannot do... It basically says to try to de-escalate if you can and if there's time. If not, go to an intermediate weapon. You can still jump to whatever level of force is appropriate. It also says if you walk in and stir up shit by motherfucking someone when you get out of the patrol car, that will reflect on your escalation of force. If you stop a guy on traffic and start MF'ing him at the window and yank him out of the window by his shirt collar for then getting mouthy with you, they will take all the circumstances into account when reviewing the UOF. This seems to just emphasize professionalism and move away from the way it was done in the 'old days'. And if you're having a hard time defining professionalism ... brother ... really? I think as Feds sometimes ya'll are on a different planet. The fact that the FBI does not carry intermediate weapons and does not video/tape record their interviews with suspects bewilders me beyond all else. Talk about being stuck in the 70's.. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 12:50:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Words that are interpretive have little place in policy.
They exist to give management an "out" when it's politically expedient to throw someone under the bus. The best policies are concise and clear to a lay person. Professionalism means different things to different people. Some see it as rigid uniform standards...wearing your hat at all times...some see it as showing up early...etc. some see all use of force as failure...some see failure to use needed force as failure... Leaving it up to interpretation will bite you in the ass after the fact. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 8:44:37 PM EDT
[#36]
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Words that are interpretive have little place in policy. They exist to give management an "out" when it's politically expedient to throw someone under the bus. The best policies are concise and clear to a lay person. Professionalism means different things to different people. Some see it as rigid uniform standards...wearing your hat at all times...some see it as showing up early...etc. some see all use of force as failure...some see failure to use needed force as failure... Leaving it up to interpretation will bite you in the ass after the fact. The problem is lawyers will always exist and will twist whatever you put down there. I agree with the general concept of what you're trying to say here.. but honestly very similar stuff has been run down here for quite some time and has never been an issue, even in some pretty spectacular UOF's. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 8:55:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stuff like if you shoot someone 5 or 6 times in a rightous shooting its not enough to explain why you shot him with a quick 5 round NSR. instead each individual round fired is is own seperate use of force incident/investigation. Expects cops to have a photgraphic memory in violent stressfull events. In spite of decades of research that show that is an unrealistic expectation. Why would someone make such a policy? Because they know its impossible to use any force without violating some fine print of the overly complicated policy. To create a culture that any force is bad and is something to be punished. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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TL;DR... what are the policies in question? I read the damn thing, and I'd still like this question answered. What has the LEO panties in a twist? Stuff like if you shoot someone 5 or 6 times in a rightous shooting its not enough to explain why you shot him with a quick 5 round NSR. instead each individual round fired is is own seperate use of force incident/investigation. Expects cops to have a photgraphic memory in violent stressfull events. In spite of decades of research that show that is an unrealistic expectation. Why would someone make such a policy? Because they know its impossible to use any force without violating some fine print of the overly complicated policy. To create a culture that any force is bad and is something to be punished. Aw. Sounds like how every Joe Schmoe lives now. Make it impossible to live without breaking rules, and you can hold rule breaking over everyone's head. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 6:36:11 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hear that sound? That was the point going over your head. He's a troll. Ignore him |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 6:41:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm trying to get worked up over this, but it's hard since there is absolutely no info on what these policies are. Could be good, could be bad. I don't know whether to root for the city or the cops.  Knowing the Froot-Loops Left-Wing character of Seattle politicians, I'm guessing the police have a legit beef. As we saw in Ferguson, everyone wants the cops to be Officer Friendly until the riots start, and then they can go all JBT. Doesn't work that way. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 6:43:13 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I saw in another article, the UOF policy was made so long, complicated and even contradictory that its basically impossible to understand. Which may be by design so that any use of force incident can be used against the officer. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: TL;DR... what are the policies in question? From what I saw in another article, the UOF policy was made so long, complicated and even contradictory that its basically impossible to understand. Which may be by design so that any use of force incident can be used against the officer. This would be my guess. Neuter the cops to the point where they refuse to respond to anything other than a cat stuck up a tree. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 6:53:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryThe Justice Department also found disturbing but inconclusive evidence of biased policing.
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:06:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Looks like there has been a consent decree since 2012 after they got jammed up with the Feds for shooting that woodcarver guy, who I think was deaf?
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:08:54 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meh, ROD until pension time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I cannot find one specific example in the whole story. That's ridiculous. I will say though that if the feds are running your dept by consent decree then you are fucked. Meh, ROD until pension time. Maybe "fuck you, we don't care what the public thinks" doesn't always work out so great  Edit I nodded off trying to read it You can't use beanbag rounds to wake up drunks or knock people off bicycles, I got that part |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:29:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
DoJ wagging their dicks in local PDs face = Good job guys, keep it up! DoJ running guns, comforting Michael Browns mom, and every other fucked up thing they've done for the last 6 years = reprehensible misconduct and federal abuse. I'm so confused. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Weird, I always figured if people didn't like their employer's rules they could quit and go work somewhere else...... They can. But some battles are bigger than yourself. Quiting doesnt solve the problem for the remaining Seattle cops and the decent people of Seattle. They probably should have thought of that before they fucked up so bad the Feds had to get involved. DoJ wagging their dicks in local PDs face = Good job guys, keep it up! DoJ running guns, comforting Michael Browns mom, and every other fucked up thing they've done for the last 6 years = reprehensible misconduct and federal abuse. I'm so confused. It can get pretty confusing. Best rule of thumb, is keep the Feds out of all the things 
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:43:07 AM EDT
[#45]
I wonder which legal "genius" thought that it was a good idea to file a lawsuit in Federal court complaining about a consent decree entered in a case before another Federal judge.
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:52:08 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Weird, I always figured if people didn't like their employer's rules they could quit and go work somewhere else...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SEATTLE — In an open revolt, more than 100 Seattle police officers suing to block new use-of-force polices assert that high-level city, police and union officials privately agree with their contention that the court-ordered changes put them and the public in danger. But the officers who filed the suit aren't naming those high-level officials, saying only that the officials told them they won't seek to alter the policies because of the "politics" of the situation and the "perceived inability" to fight federally mandated reforms, the officers allege in newly filed court papers. "This means that the City is now knowingly and willingly playing politics with Plaintiffs' lives and the lives of the law-abiding citizens of Seattle," the officers wrote in a 34-page amended complaint filed late Wednesday with U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman. The complaint, which added new allegations to a May 28 lawsuit to block the policies, ratcheted up the court fight with its fresh allegations of cowering officials bowing to federal demands and vague claims that the policies have led to more assaults on officers. Sprinkled with more pointed language than the initial suit, the new complaint accuses the federal monitor tracking the reforms, Merrick Bobb, of carrying out a "zealous agenda" to restrict the ability of officers to use force and make reasonable, split-second decisions. Bobb is one of a number of defendants in the suit, which also names city and federal officials. The complaint also lambastes U.S. District Judge James Robart, who is overseeing the reforms and found the policies to be constitutional, for approving the changes in a "cursory, one-and-one-half-page order." The filing, which came a week after attorneys for the city and Bobb moved to dismiss the lawsuit, poses a new challenge for Police Chief Kathleen O'Toole, a strong supporter of the reforms who, shortly before being sworn into the job June 23, met with four of the officers to convey her concern that their suit had created the appearance that they were resisting reform and hindering efforts to restore community trust. It also opened an old wound, alleging that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) improperly wrung the policies out of the city based on a discredited and "fundamentally flawed finding" that Seattle officers had engaged in a pattern or practice of using excessive force. The policies, which went into effect Jan. 1, grew out of a July 2012 consent decree between the city and the Justice Department, which required the police department to adopt sweeping reforms to curtail excessive force and biased policing. The officers challenging the policies, primarily patrol officers in the 1,236-member department, brought their suit without an attorney or the support of their union, the Seattle Police Officers' Guild. In a statement Thursday, guild President Ron Smith said, "As I have stated before, there are severe flaws with the current Use of Force policy, but litigation is not the prudent route to achieve any changes to the policy. The review period for this policy is currently open, and input is being solicited from the rank and file on how to potentially improve the policy." www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7511844-Seattle-cops-say-city-playing-politics-with-their-lives/ Weird, I always figured if people didn't like their employer's rules they could quit and go work somewhere else...... So along the same lines..... don't like laws in a city? Don't like 2nd Amendment restrictions? Don't bitch, just quit your job and move. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:53:00 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They can. But some battles are bigger than yourself. Quiting doesnt solve the problem for the remaining Seattle cops and the decent people of Seattle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Weird, I always figured if people didn't like their employer's rules they could quit and go work somewhere else...... They can. But some battles are bigger than yourself. Quiting doesnt solve the problem for the remaining Seattle cops and the decent people of Seattle. ABSOLUTELY. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:54:53 AM EDT
[#48]
This whole UoF policy, consent decree, and the whining by the TBL makes me want to share the Nelson "HA! HA!" .gif but I'm on my phone.
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:57:20 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So along the same lines..... don't like laws in a city? Don't like 2nd Amendment restrictions? Don't bitch, just quit your job and move. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SEATTLE — In an open revolt, more than 100 Seattle police officers suing to block new use-of-force polices assert that high-level city, police and union officials privately agree with their contention that the court-ordered changes put them and the public in danger. But the officers who filed the suit aren't naming those high-level officials, saying only that the officials told them they won't seek to alter the policies because of the "politics" of the situation and the "perceived inability" to fight federally mandated reforms, the officers allege in newly filed court papers. "This means that the City is now knowingly and willingly playing politics with Plaintiffs' lives and the lives of the law-abiding citizens of Seattle," the officers wrote in a 34-page amended complaint filed late Wednesday with U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman. The complaint, which added new allegations to a May 28 lawsuit to block the policies, ratcheted up the court fight with its fresh allegations of cowering officials bowing to federal demands and vague claims that the policies have led to more assaults on officers. Sprinkled with more pointed language than the initial suit, the new complaint accuses the federal monitor tracking the reforms, Merrick Bobb, of carrying out a "zealous agenda" to restrict the ability of officers to use force and make reasonable, split-second decisions. Bobb is one of a number of defendants in the suit, which also names city and federal officials. The complaint also lambastes U.S. District Judge James Robart, who is overseeing the reforms and found the policies to be constitutional, for approving the changes in a "cursory, one-and-one-half-page order." The filing, which came a week after attorneys for the city and Bobb moved to dismiss the lawsuit, poses a new challenge for Police Chief Kathleen O'Toole, a strong supporter of the reforms who, shortly before being sworn into the job June 23, met with four of the officers to convey her concern that their suit had created the appearance that they were resisting reform and hindering efforts to restore community trust. It also opened an old wound, alleging that the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) improperly wrung the policies out of the city based on a discredited and "fundamentally flawed finding" that Seattle officers had engaged in a pattern or practice of using excessive force. The policies, which went into effect Jan. 1, grew out of a July 2012 consent decree between the city and the Justice Department, which required the police department to adopt sweeping reforms to curtail excessive force and biased policing. The officers challenging the policies, primarily patrol officers in the 1,236-member department, brought their suit without an attorney or the support of their union, the Seattle Police Officers' Guild. In a statement Thursday, guild President Ron Smith said, "As I have stated before, there are severe flaws with the current Use of Force policy, but litigation is not the prudent route to achieve any changes to the policy. The review period for this policy is currently open, and input is being solicited from the rank and file on how to potentially improve the policy." www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7511844-Seattle-cops-say-city-playing-politics-with-their-lives/ Weird, I always figured if people didn't like their employer's rules they could quit and go work somewhere else...... So along the same lines..... don't like laws in a city? Don't like 2nd Amendment restrictions? Don't bitch, just quit your job and move. To be fair the usual quote is the law is the law, don't like it vote to change it. Don't like the policy vote different people in. 
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:57:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From the article: Here is a quote for you too Robart: Quote HistoryQuoted:
From the article: "To those individuals," Robart said, "I simply say: 'Get over it. The train has left the station. It's not going to turn around. The good old days are not coming back.' " Here is a quote for you too Robart: That's right, we got to be judged. But case-by-case, circumstance by circumstance, and human being by human being. You can pass judgment on law enforcement officers in general, but they are going to do the same on the public, oh yea. And God help us if they feel the public let them down. And the day you convince the average policeman that it isn't worthwhile to go to the dark alley, or stop a suspicious vehicle, or question something it is his instinct and training telling maybe evil then that’s the day this country starts to go, we wouldn’t be the first, we wouldn’t be the last. So the "article" OP posted is just a Union propaganda. SHOCKED just could not tell from total lack of any specific info, lots of emotional language, and one sided article. SHOCKED I tell you SHOCKED |
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