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Posted: 8/26/2014 11:13:17 PM EDT
[#1]
You did good...........sucks that you are working with asshole libtards.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 11:14:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Derp in this thread is utterly amazing. Mountain out of Mole Hill much OP? Again when you call 911 your are requesting help, once EMS shows up you follow their rules or you don't get a ride. Don't like it, too fucking bad. If you are that concerned about your CCW then you're not critical. If I'm having a heart attack or bleeding out I could give a shit less about my gun, that shit is replaceable. You realize these situations are occurring everyday and pretty much noone is having issues with it right? Cool. Last time I took an ambulance ride was for a herniated disc in my back. I was in complete control of my faculties. Admittedly not life threatening to me, but neither was I to anyone else. You're ok with the deprivation of rights under color of law? |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 11:23:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Derp in this thread is utterly amazing. Mountain out of Mole Hill much OP? Again when you call 911 your are requesting help, once EMS shows up you follow their rules or you don't get a ride. Don't like it, too fucking bad. If you are that concerned about your CCW then you're not critical. If I'm having a heart attack or bleeding out I could give a shit less about my gun, that shit is replaceable. You realize these situations are occurring everyday and pretty much noone is having issues with it right? So if someone carrying a weapon gets hit by a car or whatever severe injury that may happen to a person, you would be fine with them dying/bleeding out while EMTs stand around with their thumbs up their asses waiting for the cops to come get the gun before the EMTs go to work? |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 11:26:59 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dude, if you are being transported there really is no reason to maintain your firearm. I've got no problem with law-enforcement securing the firearm for safekeeping. We're not talking about Stubbed toe... You were being transported by an ambulance. I think the issue lies in the refusal of treatement until law enforcement have come along and disarmed the patient that is the issue, if I have read that right. |
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Posted: 8/26/2014 11:44:28 PM EDT
[#5]
That TL:DR shit has gotten old. It's not funny anymore. Read or lose.
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Posted: 8/26/2014 11:48:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the issue lies in the refusal of treatement until law enforcement have come along and disarmed the patient that is the issue, if I have read that right. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Dude, if you are being transported there really is no reason to maintain your firearm. I've got no problem with law-enforcement securing the firearm for safekeeping. We're not talking about Stubbed toe... You were being transported by an ambulance. I think the issue lies in the refusal of treatement until law enforcement have come along and disarmed the patient that is the issue, if I have read that right. That's how I read it. What the fuck do they do.............just sit there while the guy bleeds out for example for god's sake!!?? 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:08:53 AM EDT
[#7]
OP, nothing you said was inherently unreasonable.
The only thing I would've done differently is asked the LEO where they would store/secure the weapons, and whether they were prepared to accept responsibility for disarmed patients' gear for the duration. No one likes additional responsibilities. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:18:27 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's how I read it. What the fuck do they do.............just sit there while the guy bleeds out for example for god's sake!!?? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dude, if you are being transported there really is no reason to maintain your firearm. I've got no problem with law-enforcement securing the firearm for safekeeping. We're not talking about Stubbed toe... You were being transported by an ambulance. I think the issue lies in the refusal of treatement until law enforcement have come along and disarmed the patient that is the issue, if I have read that right. That's how I read it. What the fuck do they do.............just sit there while the guy bleeds out for example for god's sake!!?? I imagine that would bring on a lawsuit. OP must be in either Milwaukee or Madison. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:29:52 AM EDT
[#9]
But.....isn't the law enforcment officer armed? By their own logic, and personal expericence, the scene becomes unsafe as soon as the office arrives.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:38:50 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good lord im not reading all that,,,sorry. TL:DR 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:21:56 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dude, if you are being transported there really is no reason to maintain your firearm. I've got no problem with law-enforcement securing the firearm for safekeeping. We're not talking about Stubbed toe... You were being transported by an ambulance. ok, but what if LE arnt on scene.. and they are refusing to treat until they are... we all know what a great response time LE has to 911 calls, imagine the response time to "can you send over a squad to hold this guys gun so we can treat him"...
mean while the person now suffers death or greater injury due to the time lapse... |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:36:50 AM EDT
[#12]
Welcome to world of healthcare policy.
What blows my mind is the level of education these people have. Been on a couple of committees and the level of stupid is astounding. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:41:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Ambulance transport policy > Constitutional Rights
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:49:54 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dude, if you are being transported there really is no reason to maintain your firearm. I've got no problem with law-enforcement securing the firearm for safekeeping. We're not talking about Stubbed toe... You were being transported by an ambulance. +1 I'm going to have to agree. I have no problem with armed patients in an outpatient setting like an office practice, and I have had armed patients in my office. It doesn't interfere with my ability to take care of them, physical exam, etc. However, an ER patient may require drugs that would alter their mental state, x-rays/MRI, etc. where possessing a firearm is going to interfere with the testing or they mentally will no longer be able to maintain control. But I completely understand where you are coming from OP and I don't question your sincerity. This is simply one situation where it is better to have the weapon secured, and if a family member or friend can't take it then an LEO should. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:00:30 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I answered kept your mouth shut. Not because I think you should have acquiesced but because (at least in my state) you are kind of wrong. Not because in and of itself the gun or gun owner is dangerous, but because you can't take that patient into the hospital with a gun (as far as I know all hospitals are gun free). So, what do you do with the gun once you get to the hospital? You take on liability by taking possession of the gun. Plus, what if in the course of your treatment you administer a Narc, now you just turned the gun owner into a felon. Or again, you took possession of a gun in your ambulance and what do you do with it when you return to service. I have absolutely no problem with gun owners obviously, but I can't wait until you get discharged to give you back your gun. None of my hospitals are gun free, but if you're going to the hospital by ambulance, I'm concerned about the gun being lost, stolen, taken by another patient, etc if the patient becomes incapacitated. In regards to some other posts, I highly doubt that an EMT/paramedic will refuse to treat a seriously injured patient just because they see a gun on his hip. They'd likely stabilize the patient and remove the gun themselves or by that time an LEO is on scene and can secure it. If you walked into the local ER with a cut on you hand requiring stitches and were carrying concealed, the fact you are armed wouldn't even come up. We're talking here about a case where someone is injured enough or sick enough to require transportation by ambulance. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:03:16 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would have treated you and your weapon would have been secured by your wife. No big deal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I was having a seizure in the middle of the night. Back was sore so I was sleeping on a recliner with a gun by my side. Wife called 911 EMT arrived lifted me up and saw the gun. Wife says she said I'll take it and lock it up. A cop had showed up with the EMT he would not let her touch it he took it and she walked him to the safe. Nothing happened until the gun was locked up. My problem with waiting for a cop to show before EMT will act puts the victim at a great risk. A stroke or heart attack victim needs care NOW. If I had died my wife would have sued. I would have treated you and your weapon would have been secured by your wife. No big deal. That's what I figured most (? all) EMT/paramedics would do. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:06:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty sure I read all the replies but maybe I missed it. Has anyone asked what their policy is for treating a cop? Who takes their weapon? Would the clothing you're wearing really be all that is needed to differentiate? You just divided by zero.  Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:09:18 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's at most four paragraphs. If your too lazy to read "all that" then God help this nation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good lord im not reading all that,,,sorry. TL:DR It's at most four paragraphs. If your too lazy to read "all that" then God help this nation. Nation is already fubar Sad |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:14:28 AM EDT
[#19]
The icing on the cake was when one of the medical directors for the
system said "While I doubt this policy is constitutional, I'm of the opinion that we should pass it and operate under the policy until it is ruled unconstitutional by a court." This mentality is one of the biggest reasons we have so many successful attacks on our liberty in this country. It's not about what's right, it's about what they can get away with. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:16:51 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It'd be a shame if that policy made the local news and was subsequently challenged in court in regards to its constitutionality.  Especially if it came out that one of the committee members said that the measure is probably unconstitutional, but said it should be implemented anyway. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:19:23 AM EDT
[#21]
Tell this story to the appropriate (NRA) group so they can sue your company now instead of later.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:26:07 AM EDT
[#22]
FWIW in Michigan, hospitals are pistol free zones for CPL purposes, so the firearm would be secured anyways or the person would be in violation of law if the destination were a hospital.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:47:46 AM EDT
[#23]
If I'd been in an accident and was injured seriously enough to require transport, it'd be nice to find out later that there had been a procedure in place to secure my gun and maybe other valuables, and I'd be getting my stuff back.
The problem with the board's discussion is that it focused on the "safety" of emergency/hospital personnel, which should be addressed, but not to the point of refusing treatment of an armed individual. If you're well enough that your biggest concern is remaining armed, you probably don't need much in the way of medical care anyway (or maybe you're just an idiot). If you're really in an emergency situation, EMTs are going to destroy your clothes- they'll cut your $500 leather jacket to shreds, and a whole lot of other things you'd never want to see. All for one reason - to save your life. If you're laying in the street after some idiot ran a red light and t-boned you on your bike,and your leg is broken, and a cop wants to take your gun? That's not a violation of rights- it's common sense. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:51:00 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool. Last time I took an ambulance ride was for a herniated disc in my back. I was in complete control of my faculties. Admittedly not life threatening to me, but neither was I to anyone else. You're ok with the deprivation of rights under color of law? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Derp in this thread is utterly amazing. Mountain out of Mole Hill much OP? Again when you call 911 your are requesting help, once EMS shows up you follow their rules or you don't get a ride. Don't like it, too fucking bad. If you are that concerned about your CCW then you're not critical. If I'm having a heart attack or bleeding out I could give a shit less about my gun, that shit is replaceable. You realize these situations are occurring everyday and pretty much noone is having issues with it right? Cool. Last time I took an ambulance ride was for a herniated disc in my back. I was in complete control of my faculties. Admittedly not life threatening to me, but neither was I to anyone else. You're ok with the deprivation of rights under color of law? I take it you don't fly? No hospital around me will allow a patient to be armed. More over its a cluster fuck for everyone involved. What exactly do you thinking you are going to be able to do with your CCW when you couldn't even manage to get to the hospital on your own? I guess some of the other posters missed the reference to the "gun box" for times when leaving the weapon with a responsible part isn't an option. Cut the holster off the belt and both go in the box. Trying to make a weapon safe in a confined box is retarded |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:55:28 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's at most four paragraphs. If your too lazy to read "all that" then God help this nation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good lord im not reading all that,,,sorry. TL:DR It's at most four paragraphs. If your too lazy to read "all that" then God help this nation. Not too lazy, just don't have the time. 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:02:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good lord im not reading all that,,,sorry. TL:DR |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:06:13 AM EDT
[#27]
I assume that minutes are kept of these meetings? You should get a copy and file it away in a safe place. Might come in useful some day, either to protect yourself or hang them.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:11:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
The icing on the cake was when one of the medical directors for the system said "while I doubt this policy is constitutional, I'm of the opinion that we should pass it and operate under the policy until it is ruled unconstitutional by a court." We need to start putting those people in prison. And bar them from any kind of public position. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:16:42 AM EDT
[#29]
OP, you sound like a good man. We are all doing our part but yeah, you just outed yourself. Polish up your resume and start looking south towards Texas or some other free (sorta) state.
Oh, and F.gov. All of them everywhere. 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:17:35 AM EDT
[#30]
You did the right thing by standing up for our rights. If no one stands up for them, we will definitely lose them. Your liberal co-workers are retards. They hate freedom and they want to discriminate against conservatives and let them die untreated.
I take it you don't fly?
No hospital around me will allow a patient to be armed. More over its a cluster fuck for everyone involved. What exactly do you thinking you are going to be able to do with your CCW when you couldn't even manage to get to the hospital on your own? I guess some of the other posters missed the reference to the "gun box" for times when leaving the weapon with a responsible part isn't an option. Cut the holster off the belt and both go in the box. Trying to make a weapon safe in a confined box is retarded When a person is seriously injured, they won't be in the correct mental state to put their firearm back in a safe. They also might not be physically able to. And depending on the circumstances, it might not be wise to do so anyway. I can imagine a non-black man in Ferguson Missouri being wounded, and some locals taking advantage of his state by assaulting him further or trying to rob him. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:38:05 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
"an armed individual in an of itself makes for an unsafe scene." While that's obviously bullshit, even if it were true I don't think it should make any difference. Should EMT's refuse to treat somebody in a car wreck because there is a tank full of potentially explosive gasoline in one of the cars? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:50:07 AM EDT
[#32]
The EMS unit I use to run with had a similar conversation and wanted to know LEO opinion. The Sheriff , and the local Police Chiefs said no way in heck are we doing that. It is
unconstitutional. The Hospitals put in lockers where the firearm stays until it is returned to the individual. I am really surprised that this has come up 3 yrs after CCW passed. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:04:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So gun owners get to bleed out or die of a heart attack because a holstered gun is unsafe? No, jesus GD has really gone full retard. You get to bleed out or die of a heart attack if you are too stupid to realize that if you are bleeding out from a trauma or having a heart attack that your weapon needs to be secured. Before yall get your fucking pampers or depends in a bunch, it is also common policynfor law enforcement, gun is a no go on the bus if you are the patient. Get your heads out of your asses |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:17:16 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dude, if you are being transported there really is no reason to maintain your firearm. I've got no problem with law-enforcement securing the firearm for safekeeping. We're not talking about Stubbed toe... You were being transported by an ambulance. You're absolutely correct, but the question is the proper sequence of events. If EMS refuses to treat you at all until a police officer physically takes posession of your weapon, you can suffer further injury while waiting for the police. And, if you do, what's your recourse? You've suffered injury based on medical nontreatment, but the responsible party is not medical personnel. It's a big can of worms, and the board is basically just hoping that it never causes any problems. The proper sequence of events is to treat the patient as normal, once it is established that the firearm is secured within a holster. The police should be instructed to take posession of the weapon, yes, but if they're not at the scene when the patient needs transport, then the cops can just meet them at the hospital. A patient having a gun should NOT be cause to delay treatment. That's the point. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:18:31 AM EDT
[#35]
While I agree with you on the finer point of the law, common sense dictates you do what the fuck the doc or EMT tells you. If it reaches the point your fine point of the law is relevant, someone is being a fucking idiot, and it isn't the healthcare provider.
You're trusting them with your life...I'm pretty sure the one gun is a minor issue at that point. Here's a scenario to consider as well. Man reports heart problems, ambulance responds. Man refuses to disarm, gets transported anyway. You now have an armed unknown in an ambulance full of expensive medical equipment, drugs, seringes...all sorts of goodies. If that thought has occurred to me, it has occurred to criminals, too. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:22:20 AM EDT
[#36]
I'm just going to point this out in case it hasn't already.
What if they refuse service to someone who is literally dying on the spot? What if that person decides to demand treatment at gunpoint? Or, realizes he's going to die, knows it's because these pieces of shit are choosing to let him die, and decides to take them with him? Just a thought. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:22:49 AM EDT
[#37]
Are cops disarmed if they have to take a ride in the Amberlamps? Just curious.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:24:48 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While I agree with you on the finer point of the law, common sense dictates you do what the fuck the doc or EMT tells you. If it reaches the point your fine point of the law is relevant, someone is being a fucking idiot, and it isn't the healthcare provider. You're trusting them with your life...I'm pretty sure the one gun is a minor issue at that point. Here's a scenario to consider as well. Man reports heart problems, ambulance responds. Man refuses to disarm, gets transported anyway. You now have an armed unknown in an ambulance full of expensive medical equipment, drugs, seringes...all sorts of goodies. If that thought has occurred to me, it has occurred to criminals, too. You just made the same argument that all the liberal anti-gun types make that a person with a firearm (regardless if they are law-abiding or not) represents a "potential" threat, and therefore there should be rules/laws that pre-mitigate that "potential" threat. Instead of your example, just replace ambulance with bank, or veterinarian office, or any number of other venues where someone with a gun who elects to do evil has the potential to do harm or steal property. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:25:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Good job OP
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:29:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While that's obviously bullshit, even if it were true I don't think it should make any difference. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"an armed individual in an of itself makes for an unsafe scene." While that's obviously bullshit, even if it were true I don't think it should make any difference. While it's obviously BS to those who defend citizens' 2A rights, I don't think it is obvious to those who hold little regard for citizens' 2A rights. Kinda what is the sticking point of his whole issue and my being the sole voice against the direction that the committee went. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:29:33 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are cops disarmed if they have to take a ride in the Amberlamps? Just curious. Military disarms medevac'd wounded, as standard procedure. I'd imagine police do as well. But the question isn't about whether it's proper for a police officer to take control of a patient's weapon - that is a good policy. The question is whether it's okay to delay treatment based solely on the fact that the patient is (presumably legally) armed (and also presuming that the weapon is in a safe condition i.e. in a holster) - and that is absolutely not acceptable. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:35:23 AM EDT
[#42]
Consider it this way:
A knife is potentially a deadly weapon. Lots of people carry pocket knives. Out of concern for scene safety, a medical response agency decides that they're no longer going to treat anyone in posession of a knife. If you have a pocket knife, you'll need to wait for the police to arrive to take the knife from you, and then and only then will EMS treat your injuries. See? It doesn't make sense. The proper procedure is to treat and transport the patient as required by the circumstances of the emergency. The mere presence of a firearm should not constitute a valid reason to delay treatment. Yes, have the cops take posession of the firearm, but there's no reason they can't do that at the hospital or after you've started treatment at the scene. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:36:39 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good job OP TL;DR try again whiskerz
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:37:01 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'd been in an accident and was injured seriously enough to require transport, it'd be nice to find out later that there had been a procedure in place to secure my gun and maybe other valuables, and I'd be getting my stuff back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'd been in an accident and was injured seriously enough to require transport, it'd be nice to find out later that there had been a procedure in place to secure my gun and maybe other valuables, and I'd be getting my stuff back. I will wager that every hospital ED has a procedure for doing just this. The problem with the board's discussion is that it focused on the "safety" of emergency/hospital personnel, which should be addressed, but not to the point of refusing treatment of an armed individual. Quoted:
If you're well enough that your biggest concern is remaining armed, you probably don't need much in the way of medical care anyway (or maybe you're just an idiot). What if you are not critical, but need a visit to the ED (say for a broken leg). And you are alone so there is no family/friends for you to give your CCW weapon to. Quoted:If you're laying in the street after some idiot ran a red light and t-boned you on your bike,and your leg is broken, and a cop wants to take your gun?
That's not a violation of rights- it's common sense. It's not a violation if the cop wants to take it and you voluntarily relinquish it to him/her or another person. But what if the cop wants to take it and you don't want him to? Maybe you are afraid it will get "lost" like many patient possessions (jewelry, watches, etc.) do when people are transported by ambulance. Is it a violation now if he takes your legally owned/carried firearm against your will? This isn't a law enforcement stop where the officer has suspicion of a crime and is confiscating your firearm temporarily until he/she sorts things out. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:39:16 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We're talking here about a case where someone is injured enough or sick enough to require transportation by ambulance. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile In most EMS systems, mine included, somewhere north of ~90% of patient transports are not for critical patients. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:41:30 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is simply one situation where it is better to have the weapon secured, and if a family member or friend can't take it then an LEO should. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I don't disagree with you, but it isn't a question of "should" the firearm be secured, its how, by who, and whether it is voluntary or not. In effect its a blanket "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policy targeted (pun intended) at gun owners. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:44:14 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But.....isn't the law enforcment officer armed? By their own logic, and personal expericence, the scene becomes unsafe as soon as the office arrives. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" Animal Farm |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:44:54 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP must be in either Milwaukee or Madison. While I live in WI, I work in MN (where this took place) |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:46:15 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I take it you don't fly? I've taken one round trip flight in the last 12 years, and that was because my work forced me to. I won't do it voluntarily. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:50:58 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It'd be a shame if that policy made the local news and was subsequently challenged in court in regards to its constitutionality. HINT HINT OP I don't get the deal. You can't carry in hospitals per law anyways so in-taking a patient at an ambulance unarmed makes sense. It's probably easier to secure it at your home or where you're currently at than it is once you get to the hospital. If a patient can secure their own weapon, I'm pretty sure they would have and no need for LEO to assist. |
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