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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:27:11 AM EDT
[#1]
lets see the pics.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:18:24 AM EDT
[#2]
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Seems like evading the fire would be a better strategy than trying to engage the targets with a single gun and an a/c full of people, and evading would likely mean it would be really tough to engage, right? Sounds to me like it doesn't require so much door gunner as it does an AV-22 gunship platform to escort. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. The Marines put a belly gun on ours.  Seems like evading the fire would be a better strategy than trying to engage the targets with a single gun and an a/c full of people, and evading would likely mean it would be really tough to engage, right? Sounds to me like it doesn't require so much door gunner as it does an AV-22 gunship platform to escort. There's a lot wrong there, but for starters if someone is shooting at you, do you want someone with a gun to protect you, or do you want your own gun? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 3:57:07 AM EDT
[#3]
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There's a lot wrong there, but for starters if someone is shooting at you, do you want someone with a gun to protect you, or do you want your own gun? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. The Marines put a belly gun on ours. Seems like evading the fire would be a better strategy than trying to engage the targets with a single gun and an a/c full of people, and evading would likely mean it would be really tough to engage, right? Sounds to me like it doesn't require so much door gunner as it does an AV-22 gunship platform to escort. There's a lot wrong there, but for starters if someone is shooting at you, do you want someone with a gun to protect you, or do you want your own gun? I don't see any problem with putting a gun back on the Osprey, but is that sufficient? Isn't a gunship escort for troop carriers normally the way it works with rotary wing? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 4:07:02 AM EDT
[#4]
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I don't see any problem with putting a gun back on the Osprey, but is that sufficient? Isn't a gunship escort for troop carriers normally the way it works with rotary wing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. The Marines put a belly gun on ours. Seems like evading the fire would be a better strategy than trying to engage the targets with a single gun and an a/c full of people, and evading would likely mean it would be really tough to engage, right? Sounds to me like it doesn't require so much door gunner as it does an AV-22 gunship platform to escort. There's a lot wrong there, but for starters if someone is shooting at you, do you want someone with a gun to protect you, or do you want your own gun? I don't see any problem with putting a gun back on the Osprey, but is that sufficient? Isn't a gunship escort for troop carriers normally the way it works with rotary wing? One problem is that the Osprey has considerably more range than a Cobra or Apache if I am not mistaken. Makes it hard to escort in some scenarios. Take V-22... Redesign fuselage and turn it into a gunship with an Apache cockpit/nose/gun, and a rotary rack that can drop 500lb JDAMs out of the belly... Profit. 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 5:34:27 AM EDT
[#5]
Would a AC130 escort work, or are those night ops only
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Posted: 8/27/2014 6:23:18 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Forward cannons on a troop transport? So now the pilots can focus on landing for loading/unloading AND engaging all at the same time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. Sounds like the AF decided that might be a priority after this incident: http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140522/DEFREG02/305220038/SOCOM-Soon-Getting-More-Capable-Deadlier-Ospreys-C-130s After three of AFSOC’s Ospreys were shot up over Juba, South Sudan in December, resulting in the injuries of four Marines on board, the command realized that the birds needed better armor. DiSebastian said that "we’re looking to put armor protection on those aircraft in under 140 days” and they’re about a third of the way through that. SOCOM leadership is also working on beefing up the firepower on the aircraft, testing new forward-firing weapons that it wants to put in place by the end of this year. Forward cannons on a troop transport? So now the pilots can focus on landing for loading/unloading AND engaging all at the same time. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 6:31:08 AM EDT
[#7]
If you're doing this from an ARG, you have Harriers doing recce, overwatch, and suppression.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 6:41:30 AM EDT
[#8]
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If you're doing this from an ARG, you have Harriers doing recce, overwatch, and suppression. It is SOP for the VMMs to have their devils or winter call made by fixed wing, pod equipped aircraft. If you get a devil call, you probably would divert to an alternate vice doing a hard hit after JDAM because that may not be sufficient to suppress. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 7:48:12 AM EDT
[#9]
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They flew over 3 or 4 technicals relatively low and slow. It was bad fucking luck, that those guys happened to be there at that point and time, relatively alert. All the guys were seated in the aircraft, technicals pointed straight up and opened up on them (bullets entered legs and ass and traveled up the body in a couple instances) followed by a couple RPGs. Not sure excatly was sitting on the back of those trucks...7.62? .50? 14.5mm? He didn't have any guesses. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jesus what was he shot with? They flew over 3 or 4 technicals relatively low and slow. It was bad fucking luck, that those guys happened to be there at that point and time, relatively alert. All the guys were seated in the aircraft, technicals pointed straight up and opened up on them (bullets entered legs and ass and traveled up the body in a couple instances) followed by a couple RPGs. Not sure excatly was sitting on the back of those trucks...7.62? .50? 14.5mm? He didn't have any guesses. fuck |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:20:05 AM EDT
[#10]
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fuck Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Jesus what was he shot with? They flew over 3 or 4 technicals relatively low and slow. It was bad fucking luck, that those guys happened to be there at that point and time, relatively alert. All the guys were seated in the aircraft, technicals pointed straight up and opened up on them (bullets entered legs and ass and traveled up the body in a couple instances) followed by a couple RPGs. Not sure excatly was sitting on the back of those trucks...7.62? .50? 14.5mm? He didn't have any guesses. fuck That makes me cringe just thinking about it. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:21:11 AM EDT
[#11]
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It is SOP for the VMMs to have their devils or winter call made by fixed wing, pod equipped aircraft. If you get a devil call, you probably would divert to an alternate vice doing a hard hit after JDAM because that may not be sufficient to suppress. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you're doing this from an ARG, you have Harriers doing recce, overwatch, and suppression. It is SOP for the VMMs to have their devils or winter call made by fixed wing, pod equipped aircraft. If you get a devil call, you probably would divert to an alternate vice doing a hard hit after JDAM because that may not be sufficient to suppress. What? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:49:02 AM EDT
[#12]
devil/winter same as cherry/ice?
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:50:33 AM EDT
[#13]
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devil/winter same as cherry/ice? They are out pro-words for hot or cold LZ |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:51:42 AM EDT
[#14]
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They are out pro-words for hot or cold LZ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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devil/winter same as cherry/ice? They are out pro-words for hot or cold LZ OK yea, that is what I figured. Cherry/Ice are ours. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:54:01 AM EDT
[#15]
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One problem is that the Osprey has considerably more range than a Cobra or Apache if I am not mistaken. Makes it hard to escort in some scenarios. Take V-22... Redesign fuselage and turn it into a gunship with an Apache cockpit/nose/gun, and a rotary rack that can drop 500lb JDAMs out of the belly... Profit. hellfires on internal racks that can be deployed form the belly. pop out the rack, fire, retract or repeat as necessary. In an emergency, eject the entire rack. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 9:55:08 AM EDT
[#16]
Why were they flying low and slow unless just after pick up.
The whole point is they can fly higher and faster than normal helos. And if it was just after PU, they had no escorts? good job on the crews. but who the fuck was doing the planning. good plans should require heroics. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:01:45 AM EDT
[#17]
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Why were they flying low and slow unless just after pick up. The whole point is they can fly higher and faster than normal helos. And if it was just after PU, they had no escorts? good job on the crews. but who the fuck was doing the planning. good plans should require heroics. I have never seen an Osprey transition from 275 kts in forward flight to a hover in any short amount of time. I can go from 135 to standing on my tail to stop in a few seconds. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:07:28 AM EDT
[#18]
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I have never seen an Osprey transition from 275 kts in forward flight to a hover in any short amount of time. I can go from 135 to standing on my tail to stop in a few seconds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Why were they flying low and slow unless just after pick up. The whole point is they can fly higher and faster than normal helos. And if it was just after PU, they had no escorts? good job on the crews. but who the fuck was doing the planning. good plans should require heroics. I have never seen an Osprey transition from 275 kts in forward flight to a hover in any short amount of time. I can go from 135 to standing on my tail to stop in a few seconds. Yeah. I assumed they had accomplished the mission and actually read the links (eventually) and realized they didn't. What happened to the US citizens? How did they get them out eventually? And still doesn't answer the escort question. Here is your money quote. The mission was proceeding as planned through three countries and 790 nautical miles. The Ospreys arrived at the United Nations compound in Bor on time. After flying over the compound to gather intelligence on ground activities, the three crews made a turn into their final approach. This is why a FAC-A escort bird would be so useful. If you are doing orbits over a hot PZ you are begging to get ass raped. This is the type of mission an osprey does well. However, it used stupidly its still stupid. No escort it would appear, still used in flight refueling (so why not use something quicker in transition like an MH-47?) the faster speed/ceiling of the Osprey would seem to be irrelevant to how this mission was planned and the operational environment. Standard rotary wings can fly above SAF/RPGs |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:08:09 AM EDT
[#19]
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hellfires on internal racks that can be deployed form the belly. pop out the rack, fire, retract or repeat as necessary. In an emergency, eject the entire rack. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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One problem is that the Osprey has considerably more range than a Cobra or Apache if I am not mistaken. Makes it hard to escort in some scenarios. Take V-22... Redesign fuselage and turn it into a gunship with an Apache cockpit/nose/gun, and a rotary rack that can drop 500lb JDAMs out of the belly... Profit. hellfires on internal racks that can be deployed form the belly. pop out the rack, fire, retract or repeat as necessary. In an emergency, eject the entire rack. Rotary rack would allow more stores with less fuselage modification. Perhaps a mix of stores too. Some Hellfires, some JDAMs, and maybe the AIM-9 for giggles. Would be a maintenance hog, though, if other rotary rack bomb bays are an indicator. The 30mm nose cannon would be the 90% solution though. Fast on target. Accurate. Effective. Scary. Get me an Apache and a Sawzall, I got this.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:14:35 AM EDT
[#20]
I figure the cherry/ice call would have been done by something capable of suppressing the enemy, not the lift platform itself.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:17:31 AM EDT
[#21]
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What? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you're doing this from an ARG, you have Harriers doing recce, overwatch, and suppression. It is SOP for the VMMs to have their devils or winter call made by fixed wing, pod equipped aircraft. If you get a devil call, you probably would divert to an alternate vice doing a hard hit after JDAM because that may not be sufficient to suppress. What? In my example, a Harrier with a FLIR pod does site recce If the Harrier sees something that could cause problems for the assault aircraft, he tells them using a pro word Harrier ordnance may render the zone unusable by assaulters so they will probably divert to alternate LZ |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:30:23 AM EDT
[#22]
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The Marines put a belly gun on ours. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. The Marines put a belly gun on ours. IIRC, most of them fly with out it because of weight and because they didn't use them much. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:35:26 AM EDT
[#23]
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Forward cannons on a troop transport? So now the pilots can focus on landing for loading/unloading AND engaging all at the same time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. Sounds like the AF decided that might be a priority after this incident: http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140522/DEFREG02/305220038/SOCOM-Soon-Getting-More-Capable-Deadlier-Ospreys-C-130s After three of AFSOC’s Ospreys were shot up over Juba, South Sudan in December, resulting in the injuries of four Marines on board, the command realized that the birds needed better armor. DiSebastian said that "we’re looking to put armor protection on those aircraft in under 140 days” and they’re about a third of the way through that. SOCOM leadership is also working on beefing up the firepower on the aircraft, testing new forward-firing weapons that it wants to put in place by the end of this year. Forward cannons on a troop transport? So now the pilots can focus on landing for loading/unloading AND engaging all at the same time. It would likely be run by a gunner in the back ala CROWS |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:38:58 AM EDT
[#24]
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There's a lot wrong there, but for starters if someone is shooting at you, do you want someone with a gun to protect you, or do you want your own gun? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Needs more door gunner, that's not happening though. Two hundred and seventy degrees of defenselessness...cool. The Marines put a belly gun on ours. Seems like evading the fire would be a better strategy than trying to engage the targets with a single gun and an a/c full of people, and evading would likely mean it would be really tough to engage, right? Sounds to me like it doesn't require so much door gunner as it does an AV-22 gunship platform to escort. There's a lot wrong there, but for starters if someone is shooting at you, do you want someone with a gun to protect you, or do you want your own gun? The purpose of armament on assault platforms is to suppress the threat till the gunfighters kill it. The real issue is that the area around LZ was not winter. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:39:28 AM EDT
[#25]
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In my example, a Harrier with a FLIR pod does site recce If the Harrier sees something that could cause problems for the assault aircraft, he tells them using a pro word Harrier ordnance may render the zone unusable by assaulters so they will probably divert to alternate LZ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you're doing this from an ARG, you have Harriers doing recce, overwatch, and suppression. It is SOP for the VMMs to have their devils or winter call made by fixed wing, pod equipped aircraft. If you get a devil call, you probably would divert to an alternate vice doing a hard hit after JDAM because that may not be sufficient to suppress. What? In my example, a Harrier with a FLIR pod does site recce If the Harrier sees something that could cause problems for the assault aircraft, he tells them using a pro word Harrier ordnance may render the zone unusable by assaulters so they will probably divert to alternate LZ Thank you. Your new call sign should be Babelfish.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:51:05 AM EDT
[#26]
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That was the first combat mission for the medic who tended to the 2 most critically wounded, at one point transfusing his own blood to a teammate while still in flight (all while fighting off the pain of a bullet lodged against his kidney). I'm honored to know the man. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Truly awesome job by the flight crews and everyone attending to the wounded. That was the first combat mission for the medic who tended to the 2 most critically wounded, at one point transfusing his own blood to a teammate while still in flight (all while fighting off the pain of a bullet lodged against his kidney). I'm honored to know the man. He needs one of these! 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 10:53:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah. I assumed they had accomplished the mission and actually read the links (eventually) and realized they didn't. What happened to the US citizens? How did they get them out eventually? And still doesn't answer the escort question. Here is your money quote. This is why a FAC-A escort bird would be so useful. If you are doing orbits over a hot PZ you are begging to get ass raped. This is the type of mission an osprey does well. However, it used stupidly its still stupid. No escort it would appear, still used in flight refueling (so why not use something quicker in transition like an MH-47?) the faster speed/ceiling of the Osprey would seem to be irrelevant to how this mission was planned and the operational environment. Standard rotary wings can fly above SAF/RPGs Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Why were they flying low and slow unless just after pick up. The whole point is they can fly higher and faster than normal helos. And if it was just after PU, they had no escorts? good job on the crews. but who the fuck was doing the planning. good plans should require heroics. I have never seen an Osprey transition from 275 kts in forward flight to a hover in any short amount of time. I can go from 135 to standing on my tail to stop in a few seconds. Yeah. I assumed they had accomplished the mission and actually read the links (eventually) and realized they didn't. What happened to the US citizens? How did they get them out eventually? And still doesn't answer the escort question. Here is your money quote. The mission was proceeding as planned through three countries and 790 nautical miles. The Ospreys arrived at the United Nations compound in Bor on time. After flying over the compound to gather intelligence on ground activities, the three crews made a turn into their final approach. This is why a FAC-A escort bird would be so useful. If you are doing orbits over a hot PZ you are begging to get ass raped. This is the type of mission an osprey does well. However, it used stupidly its still stupid. No escort it would appear, still used in flight refueling (so why not use something quicker in transition like an MH-47?) the faster speed/ceiling of the Osprey would seem to be irrelevant to how this mission was planned and the operational environment. Standard rotary wings can fly above SAF/RPGs High speed pass over the compound to spot the LZ followed by an approach to vertical landing. Yes, it can be done very fast... Come down to FLA sometimes and watch them do the transition from forward flight into a remote LZ. They come in low and stop pretty dang fast (this from a MH-53 guy). The point of 'no escorts' is the compound was supposed to be in a permissive area. ISR would have reported the technicals if they had been spotted also. Also, 790 miles is a fairly significant leg for a 130 knot aircraft (both time and distance). The CV is flying at C-130 speed. If you note, the CV's had the wounded on the ground in an hour and a half 500 miles away. This was with shot to hell aircraft that had to refuel several times because of fuel leaks. I'm pretty sure that if they had to do it over again, they would have had an AC-130 overhead. The retractable belly gun was pulled because of weight, space, and it had to be retracted for landing (sort of defeats the purpose). Other options are being worked. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 11:02:08 AM EDT
[#28]
A Super Tucano can cruise at 281 knots with a 300nmi combat radius, I wonder how much it would take to add a refueling probe to one?
Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 11:28:18 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
High speed pass over the compound to spot the LZ followed by an approach to vertical landing. Yes, it can be done very fast... Come down to FLA sometimes and watch them do the transition from forward flight into a remote LZ. They come in low and stop pretty dang fast (this from a MH-53 guy). The point of 'no escorts' is the compound was supposed to be in a permissive area. ISR would have reported the technicals if they had been spotted also. Also, 790 miles is a fairly significant leg for a 130 knot aircraft (both time and distance). The CV is flying at C-130 speed. If you note, the CV's had the wounded on the ground in an hour and a half 500 miles away. This was with shot to hell aircraft that had to refuel several times because of fuel leaks. I'm pretty sure that if they had to do it over again, they would have had an AC-130 overhead. The retractable belly gun was pulled because of weight, space, and it had to be retracted for landing (sort of defeats the purpose). Other options are being worked. Was 790 required or was that just what was easiest. Could they have done an intermediate point if they had better intel or planning? At the end of the day 3 birds were shot up, don't know if repairable, plus a bunch of dudes were shot up. And, oh by the way, they didn't accomplish the mission they set out to do. So something was fucked up. The question is, "What?" And if your NEO requires SEALs and CV-22s, then you are, by definition, not operating in a permissive environment. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 11:28:48 AM EDT
[#30]
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A Super Tucano can cruise at 281 knots with a 300nmi combat radius, I wonder how much it would take to add a refueling probe to one? Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Did you lose a zero on that radius? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 11:32:45 AM EDT
[#31]
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In my example, a Harrier with a FLIR pod does site recce If the Harrier sees something that could cause problems for the assault aircraft, he tells them using a pro word Harrier ordnance may render the zone unusable by assaulters so they will probably divert to alternate LZ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If you're doing this from an ARG, you have Harriers doing recce, overwatch, and suppression. It is SOP for the VMMs to have their devils or winter call made by fixed wing, pod equipped aircraft. If you get a devil call, you probably would divert to an alternate vice doing a hard hit after JDAM because that may not be sufficient to suppress. What? In my example, a Harrier with a FLIR pod does site recce If the Harrier sees something that could cause problems for the assault aircraft, he tells them using a pro word Harrier ordnance may render the zone unusable by assaulters so they will probably divert to alternate LZ interesting. thanks for the knowledge and what you do. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 11:34:43 AM EDT
[#32]
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A Super Tucano can cruise at 281 knots with a 300nmi combat radius, I wonder how much it would take to add a refueling probe to one? Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile put a refueling probe on one and it would rock like Slayer. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 11:44:07 AM EDT
[#33]
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lets see the pics. +11 |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:02:00 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 8/27/2014 12:57:30 PM EDT
[#35]
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Did you lose a zero on that radius? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A Super Tucano can cruise at 281 knots with a 300nmi combat radius, I wonder how much it would take to add a refueling probe to one? Kharn Did you lose a zero on that radius? 300nmi out, 45min loiter (IIRC), 300nmi back, all with 3000lb external stores. V22 has a 390nmi radius Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:01:54 PM EDT
[#36]
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300nmi out, 45min loiter (IIRC), 300nmi back, all with 3000lb external stores. V22 has a 390nmi radius Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A Super Tucano can cruise at 281 knots with a 300nmi combat radius, I wonder how much it would take to add a refueling probe to one? Kharn Did you lose a zero on that radius? 300nmi out, 45min loiter (IIRC), 300nmi back, all with 3000lb external stores. V22 has a 390nmi radius Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Ah. Yeah, that was one recommendation for use. Plus they could use external fuel tanks. But since this is SOCOM, an AC would seem to be the better fit. |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:09:16 PM EDT
[#37]
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interesting. thanks for the knowledge and what you do. Did. I'm retired 
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:11:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Sounds like they all took a major beating and kept on flying. It sounds like they made it home with no deaths? I'm glad to hear that. I'm unashamed to say I think Ospreys are fucking cool as hell.
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Posted: 8/27/2014 1:43:07 PM EDT
[#39]
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If only they didn't leak Hydraulic oil at the same rate they burn fuel.
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on a flight to try to rescue American citizens in the city of Bor Yep, just you're normal, every day citizens. Nothing special about them. Nope. The V22 is going to prove itself to be an awesome bird as time goes on. If only they didn't leak Hydraulic oil at the same rate they burn fuel.
Never rode in a ch53a have ya? |
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Posted: 8/27/2014 2:12:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Did I make it in before the Air Force bashing?
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Posted: 9/21/2014 8:57:46 PM EDT
[#41]
I finally got around to reading the links. It definitely sounds like the Special Warfare use Ospreys need some sort of defensive armament or a dedicated gunship version of it to act as an escort. Or an AC-130 riding shotgun.
Those guys in the front and the back of those planes are hardcore. 
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