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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:12:18 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:13:31 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you ever look at what you are posting? Quote History It’s a 8” x 10” frame of a 16 mm gun film shot which shows an F-15 Eagle locked through an F-14 Tomcat Head Up Display, at 250 feet, with piper on the Eagle’s pilot, gun selected, master arm on. Even if the photo itself is already very interesting, the story behind it, is by far more fascinating. In fact, the naval aviator at the controls of the Tomcat can be considered a sort-of legend. As explained by Alvin Townley in his book <em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Fly Navy,[/span] most probably other pilots have scored more kills, held higher ranks or more prestigious commands, but few living aviators embody the untamed nature of aviation like the one-of-a-kind legend known to decades of F-8 Crusader and F-14 Tomcat pilots: Joe "Hoser” Satrapa. A skilled rifleman, Joe joined the Navy with the aim to fly a jet fighter. His passion for guns guided him after the flight school graduation, in 1966, when he was called to opt for the F-4 Phantom or the F-8 Crusader. The Phantom had no guns and Satrapa thought: "No guns? What kind of aircraft is this with no guns?” and he immediately chose the "Last Of The Gunfighters” as the Crusader was dubbed by aircrews. But the "Satrapa legend” began the day he was given the callsign "Hoser” (even if he is also known as "Da-Hose” or "D-hose”), during a mission at the gunnery range in which he was flying the tail position in a flight of four Crusaders. He cut off the preceding aircraft as they approached the target and started shooting from two thousand feet up, one and a half miles out, hosing off all his bullets in one pass. His flight leader J.P. O’ Neill told him to return to the airfield at El Centro and the same night O’ Neill had the final say on the incident when he nailed Satrapa: "Lieutenant junior grade Satrapa, for hosing off all his bullets in one pass, will hence forth be known as Hoser. That’ ll be five bucks.” Hoser was also widely known during the Vietnam War as a fearless F-8 pilot who regularly carried a good forty pounds of lethal ordnance, in case he was suddenly forced to eject from his aircraft and face an entire platoon of North Vietnamese Army regulars. As explained by George Hall in his book <em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Top Gun – The Navy’ s Fighter Weapons School[/span], Hoser’s interest for guns continued when he transitioned to the F-14 Tomcat. During the AIMVAL/ACEVAL (the Air Combat Evaluation/Air Intercept Missile Evaluation) fighter trials that put the F-14s and the F-15s against the F-5Es to test new weapons and tactics which took place from 1974 to 1978 at Nellis Air Force Base, Hoser (assigned to the VX-4 evaluators) was put in a 1 vs 1 against an F-5. As the two combatants sat side-by-side on the Nellis runway, awaiting tower clearance for takeoff, Hoser looked over at his opponent, reached his hand up over the control panel, and mimicked the cocking of machine guns in a World War I Spad. A thumbs up came from the other cockpit, meaning that guns it would be, the proverbial knife fight in a phone booth, forget the missiles. Both jets took off. As soon as they reached the assigned area, the fighters set up twenty miles apart for a head-on intercept under ground control. Seven miles from the merge, with closure well over 1,000 knots, Hoser called "Fox One”, a Sparrow missile away, scoring a direct hit. As they flashed past each other, the furious F-5 driver radioed, "What the hell was that all about?” "Sorry.” said Hoser, "lost my head. Let’s set up again. Guns only, I promise.” Again the two fighters streaked towards the pass, again at seven miles Hoser called "Fox One.” The F-5 driver was apoplectic. Hoser was first back to the club bar, nursing an end of the day cold one as the flushed Aggressor stomped in. "Hoser, what the hell happened to credibility?” the F-5 pilot asked. Hoser replied "Credibility is DOWN, kill ratio is UP!” This story became very popular around Topgun, alongside the lesson learned: from 1 vs 1 to forty-plane furball, expect anything. But never expect your enemy to be a sweet guy. Still, Hoser’s best experience during the AIMVAL/ACEVAL most probably came after the end of the trials. Even if Tomcat and Eagle drivers could not engage each other, Hoser and his RIO Bill "Hill Billy” Hill with Dan "Turk” Pentecost and Frank "Fearless” Schumacher onboard the second F-14, went 2 vs 2 against a couple of F-15 instructors from 415th Training Squadron (415th Flight Test Flight). As told by Hoser to <em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">airwarriors.com[/span] "All pre-merge heat and radar missiles didn’t count. It was GUNS only at the merge.”The two Tomcat split the fight into two 1 V 1 with one F-14 high and the other low with fair lateral separation. Once Hoser and Hill Billy closed for a 250ft, gun kill on their Eagle, a minimal communication over the radio took place as Hoser recalls. Hoser: "Where are you Turk?”<em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"> [/span]Fearless:”Right above you Hoser” Hoser: "We got two cons! Who’s out front? "Turk (mildly offended): "Who do ya think?” Both Eagles were gunned, "knock it off” was called, and the Tomcats RTB’d with a 500 knot, 6.5g, half second break at Nellis.” But there was something more: "Knowing the gun camera film would be destroyed by the Nellis Photo lab, it was covertly sent to a secret contact at Grumman for processing. Bout a month later, December 6, the door slams open and General Knight, with 2 of his staff, doggie wobble heads entered demanding to know "who and where are Hoser and Turk?” Falcon (J.W. Taylor), OinC (who was the Officer in Charge) stepped up asking if he could be of assistance. The General responded with, "Your fighter jocks have no idea how their playful antics affect important political decisions!” Well, as General Knight proceeded to explain, Japan had contracted for twenty one F-15s, but an article in Aviation Week had talked about the F-14 being superior to the Eagle. With gun camera film to prove it, Japan was considering buying F-14s instead.” The General wanted and received all copies of the gun camera film, the TVSU/VCR (the Television Sensor Unit and the Voice Cockpit Recorder) and audio recordings on his desk the following day, but few months later Hoser asked to Falcon: "Hey Falcon, I know ya got a copy of that 16mm gun film…. how bout it?” JW returned few moments later with a copy of the film from which the above Tomcat gun camera image comes. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:13:41 PM EDT
[#3]
In on page 1.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:15:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Riiiiiight. Because a single engagement "proves" which plane is better.
This is exceptionally retarded stuff.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:16:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Riiiiiight. Because a single engagement "proves" which plane is better. This is exceptionally retarded stuff. The Indian Air Force has destroyed American air power 
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:24:33 PM EDT
[#6]
This is the most legendary F-14 pilot ever.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:24:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Story was hard to follow (as in "Turk who has the lead?"), and, boring.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:28:44 PM EDT
[#8]
bunny_with_pancake.jpg |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:34:13 PM EDT
[#9]
My balls itch. What should I do?
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:39:34 PM EDT
[#10]
I almost understood a portion of that.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:40:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My balls itch. What should I do? apply talcum and eject. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:41:17 PM EDT
[#12]
F14>F15 much lolz, the navy should have bought the right fleet interceptor to begin with, the F-111. But don't let silly politics get in the way of of a good fairy tale.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:43:34 PM EDT
[#13]
in nature have you ever seen a fixed wing bird
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:48:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
apply talcum and eject. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My balls itch. What should I do? apply talcum and eject. applying now, ejectulation will occur shortly. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:50:18 PM EDT
[#15]
He's got a pic of a money shot, but really it says nothing about what's superior. Makes for a good story at the club- that's about it. Any aircraft can be defeated given circumstances. There have been F-22s 'defeated' by F-18s and such at Red Flag.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:50:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the most legendary F-14 pilot ever. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Jalil_Zandi-.jpg Nope... wrong. I don't see "Maverick" written on his helmet. Try again. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:51:07 PM EDT
[#17]
I think we have a member here that drive's 18 with a 22 guncam shot
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:51:54 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
F14>F15 much lolz, the navy should have bought the right fleet interceptor to begin with, the F-111. But don't let silly politics get in the way of of a good fairy tale. Other things we won't let get in the way of the F111 are all the initial developmental problems it had, it's side by side cockpit design that any fighter shouldn't have, not to mention it's horrible visibility, who needs that in a fighter and a long list of other things that makes the F14 so much better as an interceptor. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:52:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think we have a member here that drive's 18 with a 22 guncam shot you're referring to valheru21, who posted it some years back. IIRC, he was not the rhino pilot who scored--he just posted it to show that the raptor is not invulnerable. edit: clarification--he flies superhornets, but was not that particular pilot. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:55:04 PM EDT
[#20]
F35 > F14&F15.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:56:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is the most legendary F-14 pilot ever. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Jalil_Zandi-.jpg  Growing up around the A-6 community I heard a lot of F-14 butt-hurt. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 8:59:52 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My balls itch. What should I do? Apply peanut butter......sheesh rookies... |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:07:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Other things we won't let get in the way of the F111 are all the initial developmental problems it had, it's side by side cockpit design that any fighter shouldn't have, not to mention it's horrible visibility, who needs that in a fighter and a long list of other things that makes the F14 so much better as an interceptor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: F14>F15 much lolz, the navy should have bought the right fleet interceptor to begin with, the F-111. But don't let silly politics get in the way of of a good fairy tale. Other things we won't let get in the way of the F111 are all the initial developmental problems it had, it's side by side cockpit design that any fighter shouldn't have, not to mention it's horrible visibility, who needs that in a fighter and a long list of other things that makes the F14 so much better as an interceptor. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:19:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a pure interceptor, the F-14 is POS compared to an F-106, the F-14 was not designed to dogfight, but to carry the AIM-54. The F-15 WAS designed to JUST dogfight. BTW an "interceptor" didn't need "Visual Confirmation" the "System" was to tell them when to fire. In the end the the navy tried to turn the F-14 into a bomb truck, and not a very good one at that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
F14>F15 much lolz, the navy should have bought the right fleet interceptor to begin with, the F-111. But don't let silly politics get in the way of of a good fairy tale. Other things we won't let get in the way of the F111 are all the initial developmental problems it had, it's side by side cockpit design that any fighter shouldn't have, not to mention it's horrible visibility, who needs that in a fighter and a long list of other things that makes the F14 so much better as an interceptor. Wrong. It was designed to counter the MIG-25 (interceptor) and carried BVR missiles from the start. You're thinking of the F-16. F-14s also did decently in 2003 as bomb trucks. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:21:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
F35 > F14&F15. here, let me help you with your math $F35 > ($F14 * $F15) |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:28:13 PM EDT
[#26]
F35 has the greatest marketing program of any aircraft. I'd rather have more F-22s.
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:37:13 PM EDT
[#27]
I know jack shit about fighter jets
but always liked the Phil Handley Mig-19 supersonic gun kill story plus appears he is an honorable man incensed by Benghazi http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/colonel-phil-handley/betrayal-in-benghazi/ |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:48:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
here, let me help you with your math $F35 > ($F14 * $F15) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
F35 > F14&F15. here, let me help you with your math $F35 > ($F14 * $F15) No kidding. The F35 is a money pit. |
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Posted: 8/21/2014 9:59:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Meanwhile, Cats be all like...
While Eagles be all like... 
I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese? 
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Posted: 8/22/2014 1:04:09 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Meanwhile, Cats be all like... http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-amarc-12.jpg While Eagles be all like... http://www.amv83.fr/Asm/Sig/japon/F15/23sqn/50thJASDF-3.jpg I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese? http://www.pluginchrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/smileys-troll.jpg |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 2:02:13 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meanwhile, Cats be all like... http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-amarc-12.jpg While Eagles be all like... http://www.amv83.fr/Asm/Sig/japon/F15/23sqn/50thJASDF-3.jpg I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese? http://www.pluginchrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/smileys-troll.jpg 
Kharn |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 2:09:12 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
F35 > F14&F15. LOL...ah...no. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 2:14:49 AM EDT
[#33]
So a guy's a legend for getting the equivalent of MILES kills?
If MILES kills count, I'm fucking Audie Murphy then. Worship me. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:18:24 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese?  |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:23:13 AM EDT
[#35]
Legendary faggotry more like it. That shit has made me gayer for having read it.
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:31:27 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I almost understood a portion of that. Funny, I understood all of it, but hen again I was in Naval Aviation for 4.5 years. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:34:00 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meanwhile, Cats be all like... http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-amarc-12.jpg While Eagles be all like... http://www.amv83.fr/Asm/Sig/japon/F15/23sqn/50thJASDF-3.jpg I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese? http://www.pluginchrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/smileys-troll.jpg I'ts sad to see those P3's in pieces
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:45:39 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
F14>F15 much lolz, the navy should have bought the right fleet interceptor to begin with, the F-111. But don't let silly politics get in the way of of a good fairy tale.
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Posted: 8/22/2014 3:47:02 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As a pure interceptor, the F-14 is POS compared to an F-106, the F-14 was not designed to dogfight, but to carry the AIM-54. The F-15 WAS designed to JUST dogfight. BTW an "interceptor" didn't need "Visual Confirmation" the "System" was to tell them when to fire. In the end the the navy tried to turn the F-14 into a bomb truck, and not a very good one at that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
F14>F15 much lolz, the navy should have bought the right fleet interceptor to begin with, the F-111. But don't let silly politics get in the way of of a good fairy tale. Other things we won't let get in the way of the F111 are all the initial developmental problems it had, it's side by side cockpit design that any fighter shouldn't have, not to mention it's horrible visibility, who needs that in a fighter and a long list of other things that makes the F14 so much better as an interceptor. First, the F111 was a better fighter than the F14 and now a plane incapable of carrier operations in better suited for the role. You are all over the place. 
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:08:43 AM EDT
[#40]
CSB.
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:17:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think we have a member here that drive's 18 with a 22 guncam shot chest thumping. Of course, in the article there was a statement from a German Typhoon pilot that said basically at dog fight range, the Typhoon could beat the Raptor 50% of the time. The catch was if the fight had been real, the Typhoons would have had to have gotten that close to the Raptors by themselves, instead of being allowed to start that close, as they were in the exercise. The German pilot said he didn't think the Typhoons would live long enough to do that for real. Take it for what its worth.
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:20:23 AM EDT
[#42]
so what?
An old buddy who flew F-16s killed an F-15 in 4 engagements ( one with a gunshot, 3 with missile lock) out of 5 during exercises. All that says is that one pilot outflew another pilot on a given day. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:27:29 AM EDT
[#43]
So am I to understand correctly that there was only 1 instance of an F-14 beating an F-15 with guns only?
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:28:11 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meanwhile, Cats be all like... http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-amarc-12.jpg While Eagles be all like... http://www.amv83.fr/Asm/Sig/japon/F15/23sqn/50thJASDF-3.jpg I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese? http://www.pluginchrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/smileys-troll.jpg Yeah, F-15's have such a hard life........ 
F-14's lifespans are way shorter because of the stress and abuse they go thru at sea. Carrier take-offs, landings and corrosion are somethings Eagles do not have to face; therefore they are not retired faster. If the F-14 lived in the same conditions as F-15's, they would more than likely still be around. Example is Iran's Tomcats. They have never been subjected to the harsh Navy elements which is basically why they are still around. Apples to Oranges........ |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:37:34 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So am I to understand correctly that there was only 1 instance of an F-14 beating an F-15 with guns only? Many more and against others........................................................... Even one engagement which caused alot of controversy because of some camera footage from the underside TCS. Needless to say the USAF did not want that footage released either. All I will say is it involved a black triangle shaped aircraft and 1987.
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:37:39 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the most legendary F-14 pilot ever. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Jalil_Zandi-.jpg I thought it was this guy |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 4:48:05 AM EDT
[#47]
That's probably the em worst fighter story I have ever heard.
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Posted: 8/22/2014 5:03:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought it was this guy https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmteRrhE0U-hILS3U5SQn0UDDw99UGVy3AKofDhXe2FXTYiQd_ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is the most legendary F-14 pilot ever. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Jalil_Zandi-.jpg I thought it was this guy https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTmteRrhE0U-hILS3U5SQn0UDDw99UGVy3AKofDhXe2FXTYiQd_ He's the best F-14 pilot if this guy is America's best president. 
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Posted: 8/22/2014 5:08:19 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, F-15's have such a hard life........
F-14's lifespans are way shorter because of the stress and abuse they go thru at sea. Carrier take-offs, landings and corrosion are somethings Eagles do not have to face; therefore they are not retired faster. If the F-14 lived in the same conditions as F-15's, they would more than likely still be around. Example is Iran's Tomcats. They have never been subjected to the harsh Navy elements which is basically why they are still around. Apples to Oranges........ Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Meanwhile, Cats be all like... http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-amarc-12.jpg While Eagles be all like... http://www.amv83.fr/Asm/Sig/japon/F15/23sqn/50thJASDF-3.jpg I wonder how you say "LOL" in Japanese? http://www.pluginchrome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/smileys-troll.jpg Yeah, F-15's have such a hard life........
F-14's lifespans are way shorter because of the stress and abuse they go thru at sea. Carrier take-offs, landings and corrosion are somethings Eagles do not have to face; therefore they are not retired faster. If the F-14 lived in the same conditions as F-15's, they would more than likely still be around. Example is Iran's Tomcats. They have never been subjected to the harsh Navy elements which is basically why they are still around. Apples to Oranges........ The corrosion environment at F-15 bases all over the world are bathed in ocean side air; not quite as bad as a bath in sea water, but close enough. The difference comes from superior corrosion control measures of aircraft built in St. Louis. Carrier operations are no excuse, either; the airplane is designed to carry the loads, and to have adequate fatigue life for the design loads spectrum. There's a good chance neither the loads nor spectrum were adequate for real life conditions, but the operating environment is no excuse. Fatigue analysis is so imprecise that huge scatter factors are used to pad the analysis, 2 in structure that will be tested, and 4 in structure that won't. Methods have improved slightly since the first line was drawn to define an F-14, but not remarkably so. On the other hand, criteria has grown more conservative and airplanes are contracted for longer service lives that those from the 70's or earlier, so those requirements cause modern airplanes to be more robust. |
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Posted: 8/22/2014 5:11:56 AM EDT
[#50]
The "which plane is best " discussion is so much bullshit.
No MiG should have survived ANY engagement in Viet Nam given the technical superiority of the F-4. Just hit them with Sparrows when they pop into radar range. Oops! Sparrows didn't work. Commie ROE's (OUR Communists, not the NV Communitsts...) mandating clearance to fire and even more retarded demands for visual ID and the most fucking retarded ROE in the history of warfare--in the middle of a shooting war, over enemy territory, toting bombs, you must wait until THEY take the first shot--shit like that caused a lot of guys to not come home. FLBJ, FRSM. Anyway, you get the point. Any aircraft can be placed at a serious disadvantage to an inferior opponent when politicians, ROE's, allies or just dumb luck are involved. Sorry, I'm not SECDEF but the best mix the Navy ever had onboard were one Sqdn. F-14's, two Sqdn's F-18's, one Sqdn. A-6 and some tankers and E-2's. But, WTFDIK, I'm just some jerkoff on arfcom... TC |
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