This is what the OP should be doing vs looking on the Internet.

 

Besides that, a person who needs CPR is dead. You can't make it any worse.

Wow. I've been out for a long time. Mine is probably Robin.

One of my instructor certs is for CPR / AED.
My advice is if you see someone drop, you can go right into compressions, If you find them down, give breaths first.

The compression only crap is to try to get more people to do something.
If you HAD to give breaths, more people would not get involved.

They say compressions do more for the patient longterm compared to breaths and compressions, according to studies over the last 20 years. So compessions is what is really helping. And longterm I mean recovery and survivability years down the road.

Professionally:

Compressions are the biggest part or CPR, but...  breathing performs a lot of functions including gas exchange and oxygenation. Pushing around old blood with no ventilation is a BAD IDEA. The "no breath" CPR is a poor idea put out because people didn't want to help because they did not want to do mouth-to-mouth and is a far second to breath/compression CPR. We've gotten people into the ER who haven't had an established airway but are getting compressed and the result is possible kickstarting the heart, but they are anoxic and the pH is at unviable levels.

I just renewed my AHA CPR/1st Aid.

Right now 30 compression's and 2 breaths is still what they think is best, but apparently AHA is looking to remove the breaths. I got a highly technical reason as to why, but don't remember what it was. I think they said basically because the compression's generally force enough air in, and you're less likely to be exposed to whatever someone else potentially has (via them throwing up in your mouth and so on) if there are no breaths.

I remember in the CPR training I took is you're supposed to "sweep the mouth" or something before you start.

Just hook your finger and sweep their mouth for obstructions, then go.

Blind sweeps are bad.  But if you enjoy pushing shit farther into their mouth or possibly getting your finger bitten off, go for it.

Bro, I'm just tellin' you what they told me.

Who you calling bro? Pal.

Good Samaritan laws don't protect you unless you have an active, valid certification for CPR.

When the kid dies, or the kid lives but has brain damage or is somehow harmed, the family will probably sue you and claim you made it worse.

I'm not your pal, guy.

Although, it is important to give CPR and try to save somebody's life.

I know somebody who recently had an aneurism at a wedding.  She stopped breathing, and was technically "dead."  Luckily, a friend of his, who is an EMT, was able to perform CPR and sustain his life until paramedics arrived.  They alternated with 2 people performing compressions and breaths.

Had they not been there to intervene, and had nobody tried to help, he would be dead.

Generally, only a small amount of water will enter the lungs because the vocal chords block the water (Laryngospasm).  CPR will most likely expel some of the fluid.  Roll the person on their side if you see frothing while doing compressions to drain out any fluid but then continue CPR.  If anyone has had a near drowning experience they should follow up with a trip to the ER.  If any fluid does make it to the lungs the fluid can wash away the natural lubricant and make it impossible for the avioli air sacs to inflate so the person can't get enough oxygen.  Salt water exacerbates this because body fluid is pulled into the lung field by osmosis.  The person is fine initially but a short time later collapses from hypoxia.  This is called a parking lot drowning.

Wow, good to know.

Every state has Good Samaritan laws.  They differ from state to state, but the premise is that bystanders who act without the expectation of reward have legal protection.  The "without expectation of reward" thing means professionals on duty, like EMS staff on an ambulance.  They're getting paid to know exactly what to do and if they don't, they can be held liable.

Do you have an example of someone who was sued for trying to perform CPR as a Good Samaritan?

Yes you can.

Take the class. I'll go against the grain and say that all the bystander CPR I've seen has been useless because they had no idea what to do. They saw a "doctor" on TV doing absolutely useless compressions and did that. If you are hitting a 1/2" compression depth you might as well not do anything.

FWIW, I just finished teaching a BLS Health Care Provider CPR/AED class.

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Yup, just watch them die, especially if they are loud an obnoxious in restaurants.

You are saying that bystander CPR is useless, not that CPR-trained people should perform it but those without a card shouldn't.  Different topic.

I'll go a step further and say much of advanced cardiac life support is useless.  It's the cold, hard truth that when people die, they generally stay dead.  Most resuscitation is futile.

Still, if my kid dropped, I would hope she'd be the small percent who can have a meaningful recovery with some CPR.  I don't care who does it, trained or not.  Some people do survive who wouldn't have survived without it.

Going to disagree. Once you are "drowned" everything is shut down, and the larynx is no exception. The good news is that the lungs are pretty good at water clearance in the average healthy person so recovery isn't too much of a problem.

The big problem is surfactant washout, which I think you were talking about in the lubricant, which lowers the water tension in the lungs and makes it easier to open your air sacs. Salt water is better then fresh water drowning because it has a lower chance of surfacant washout, which leads an increased number of people to develop a very high mortality rate process cards ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome, statistically a 50% chance of death though with modern ventilators we can avoid a lot of the barotrauma to the lungs and decrease that number).

we were taught compressions only during our last first aid/cpr recert last year.

J-

 

If I dont know you I sure as shit am not going to go mouth to mouth.

Need to be better about carrying a barrier or mask

addressed above

 

Dammit - instructor at my last CPR re-cert said that and I could not get the damned song out of my head the whole session, or even the next day!

Excellent explanation with the exception that it's not a lubricant that is washed out, it's called surfactant and it along the intrinisc peep created by the epiglottis, help to keep the aveoli open following exhalation.

 

While I agree that there will be a shut down eventually, the op was specifically speaking of a witnessed drowning and generally an immersion in water for that short of time results in little or no water in the lung fields.

Also, I was speaking of surfactant but as the thread was about a basic CPR question, I felt it best to keep it in layman's terms.  Excellent info about ARDS.  Thanks.

That's fascinating.

How long would hypoxia take to appear in "parking lot drowning".

Minutes - hours - days?

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BULLSHITTTT!!!!

 

happy birthday works, too, but a bit morbid ;)

 

I just got certified about 3 weeks ago.

The breaths are optional.  

The trainer basically said that they used to teach the ABC method and started teaching the C method, which seemed to confuse the populace, so they went to the CAB method.

Anywhere from an hour to a day.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/09/health/secondary-drowning-symptoms/

Hopefully I hotlinked properly. Doing it from my phone.

We have to be re-certed every six months (Electrical industry) - And it's still 30:2@100BPM (Beegees stayin' alive if you need a reference song :-))

How about let the bodies hit the floor?

Correct.  I take CPR every year.  This is the latest.  Just doing chest compressions alone makes the lungs, as well as the heart, work.

The chest compression rate... a good guide is the tempo of the BeeGees "Stayin' Alive".  This is actually taught in class.

WFA is a bit different, though, since it teaches you to operate under the assumption that critical care is you and not an ambulance that's going to arrive in the next few minutes. I've read numerous studies and they show that the results of compression-only CPR is as effective and typically more effective than conventional CPR. Namely, interrupting CPR requires starting the pumping process all over again making the CPR less effective and interrupting circulation.

Aside from overcoming the squeamish factor and trying to encourage people to actually do something rather than looking the other way the idea is that the pause to deliver the breaths detracts from the main goal which is to keep the heart "pumping" and the blood flowing. In a modern, urban setting the theory is that there is enough residual oxygen in the bloodstream to continue delivering it to the cells for 4-7 minutes. After that, if you don't institute rescue breathing, you're just recycling spent blood and wasting your time.

Of course if you can perform hands-only CPR while someone retrieves an AED the patient's chance of survival increases exponentially.

I volunteer with a local hospital to teach hands-only CPR. The goal is to be able to fill our football stadium with people that can at least do that much. So far we've gotten the program into a number of business, public and private schools, as well as colleges. It takes two minutes to teach someone. That's another bonus. They don't have to spend hours sitting in a room listening to someone lecturing.

There are, of course, times when hands-only CPR isn't used. It's really only good if you (or someone nearby) witnesses the person collapsing. It's not done in the case of drowning/strangulation or if a child is involved. In all three of these scenarios the cardiac arrest was likely caused by a lack of oxygen and rescue breathing needs to be performed to restore it.

Also, if you see a lightning victim their chances of being revived is very good since they were perfectly healthy prior to the heart being interrupted by the zap.

If you don't want Staying Alive stuck in your head, Another One Bites the Dust is the same beat. People don't always get my humor when I fire it up on my iPod. If you're teaching children, use Row, Row, Row Your Boat.

me like

 

Talk Radio has a "Hands Only" CPR ad playing about once every 30 minutes. They describe how to do it.  If you perform only to that level, then you should be covered.
I think it is an Ad council, AHA, Heart org collaboration .....I doubt they would stick their necks out on that liability chopping block if it hadn't received a full cavity check from their lawyers.
So....there's your on-radio training course.

We were told "Another One Bites The Dust" is another option.

Hot Link

Secondary drowning is HUGE with children who are learning to swim. Lots of kids take a dunk and get some water in their lungs, seem fine, then crash a few hours later of unknown causes.

30 - 2


Though I wouldn't do breath without a mask unless I know the person well. Get the training. At the very least should you have to render aid and the person dies it should alleviate you from a civil lawsuit.



This day and age you try CPR and the person dies and you aren't certified and your liable to be sued and lose the suit.

WRONG, once again. your good samaritan laws cover you 100% with or without training.