Christ said, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd " (John 10:16).

Wouldn't they also have a testament of his visit?

I'm coming late to this thread, and I'm too drunk tonight to read the first 40 pages, but no Mormon I have ever talked to (and I've talked to a lot, including a chick I dated once and tried to turn me into one) gets tight-lipped when I ask them to explain how the book of Mormon conflicts with Revelation 22:19 "...18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book...."

It's a freaking cult. To each his own, and if they want to run their little enterprise I'm OK as long as they stay away from me. My 2c is stay away from them.

you win a

That's root beer by the way.  

I'm going to have to test out my google-fu, i thought it was less than that.

<CoC #1 violation; warning sent - Z>

Bless your hearts.  
 

I've heard two Mormon responses to that.

1.  Refers to the book of Revelation,  not the entire Bible.  The New Testament didn't exist in its current state at the time that was written,  so it couldn't.  The. New Testament was compiled and codified after the council of Nicea.

2. The "other sheep who are not of this fold" as referenced earlier in the thread.  The fact that they kept a record of their relationship with Christ does not add or take away from the Bible, or Book of Revelation.

I think God knows the difference when layman innocently or ignorantly follow incorrect doctrines but He won't give those who put those systems in place and those who perpetuate them a break at all.  ymmv

OK checked it out some more,  Looks like 600 years before the flood.  than 400+ years before the birth of Jesus.  I find it interesting that such a long period of time went by before both those events.

For those that believe there are no longer prophets walking on earth with us.  Why do you think 2000ish years have gone by without one?

Haha yes. That's clearly what we are.





Satan seeks to mislead the children of God by encouraging them to be honest, hard working and good spouses/parents. Darn him and his sneaky plots to lead us all to hell with his teachings of integrity, personal responsibility, love of family and all those other undesirable traits we Mormons are supposed to strive for.
 

John 10:16 does not equal Jesus physically visiting the New World.
But if it did, why would the testament be different?

I choose #1.

Also, Deuteronomy 4:2 contains similar language. No one ignores the NT because of those verses.

Rom. 3:24, 28
3:24 But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. 28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

Go ahead and try to "work" your way in, my friend.

OK that's it - I'm out of this thread. Peace.

Yes he does. Because NONE of things earns you salvation. It discounts/denies the only path, and that is Christ's death on the cross and physical resurrection to remove the sin of ALL mankind. All you have to do is believe it and you can't even do that unless you hear God's Word and the Holy Spirit is in you.

Good works? They are His good works through you produced BECAUSE of your salvation and not to achieve it. Christ earned your salvation; all you have to do is believe it. Because of the work of Christ, the Father sees us as perfect in His eyes.

"I think I want to be a mormon"

Then just frackin do it.  Throw your coffee maker and booze in the trash on yer way out.

So that was your point?

I see no reach in the scriptures you cited that can give credence to your personal interpretation "last" or "only" or "final" "testament."

Heb. 9:15-18 (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

"*New* Testament..." Yes. "Final," or "only" testament? I think that extrapolation is a bit of a reach... Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything to the effect of, "And boom. That' all there is, folks."

Yes... Absolutely, unequivocally... We believe the Bible to be the Word of God...

This book [the Bible] is of priceless worth; its value cannot estimated by anything that is known among men upon which value is fixed. ... But in the Latter-day Saints it should always be a precious treasure. Beyond any people now upon the face of the earth, they should value it, for the reason that from its pages, from the doctrines set forth by its writers, the epitome of the plan of salvation which is there given unto us, we derive the highest consolation, we obtain the greatest strength. It is, as it were, a constant fountain sending forth streams of living life to satisfy the souls of all who peruse its pages - George Q. Cannon

We are not called to teach the errors of translators but the truth of God's word. It is our mission to develop faith in the revelations from God in the hearts of the children, and "How can that best be done?" is the question that confronts us. Certainly not by emphasizing doubts, creating difficulties or teaching negations.... The clause in the Articles of Faith regarding mistakes in the translation of the Bible was never intended to encourage us to spend our time in searching out and studying those errors, but to emphasize the idea that it is the truth and the truth only that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints accepts, no matter where it is found. -George Q. Cannon

Yes. No question. As far as the translation (and there are some interesting translations out there that do more than "make it easier to read...") is correct... We, no question, believe the Bible to be the Word of God... But look at the myriad of "Christian" religions that call themselves different names, and have different beliefs based on its precepts and sometimes different translations.

Yes, we believe the "Old Testament" and the "New Testament." We mostly read-from the King James version in church and in teaching...

Yes... We also believe the Book of Mormon to be "Another Testament of Jesus Christ."

Than what does it equal?
Different perspective, different testament.  the message is the same.

So many baptists just showed up.

Both of those answers are correct, but I also like to point out that even is this verse relates to the Bible as a whole (which it doesn't) a key word that is ignored is MAN.


"If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


We are not claiming man added to the Bible.  God did,  and if he chooses to do so, who is man to say otherwise.

Or you could just state it as it ACTUALLY is written.  "another testament of Jesus Christ."

It's interesting that unless LDS critics twist and  change what Mormons actually believe, they have much less of an argument.  As has been shown time and time again,  almost without exception,  those that criticize the LDS church, do so with "twisted facts, half truths, or flat out lies.  

If a critic would actually stick to the real facts and actual LDS doctrine,  most Mormons would sit back and say, " yep, that is what we believe, and this is why".

I thought they were coming for the BBQ

My gut tells me you are correct.  Isn't there a "test" to determine if someone is a false prophet somewhere in scripture? Prophets are also messengers and don't necessarily make predictions regarding the future. I still think the "test" which I can't find at the moment would apply.

Yeah, the world is moving along pretty good without prophets.

Isnt that one of the jobs of the prophets, to open eyes?

Your denial of a clear point that disintegrates the BOM doesn't mean others who see clearly will change their minds.

As Jesus clearly said, and is understood by everyone (except Mormons who will suspend rational thought when it comes to their religion) in order for a testament to come into effect one thing has to happen first:

The testator must die.

You quoted vs 16 and 17 after all.

Jesus gave and explained the new testament - in His blood - and then died for our sins, was buried and rose again.  He will never die again.

Then, about 400 years after Jesus' death and resurrection, "another testament" comes along.

Sorry, it doesn't work.

Jesus died ONCE, never to taste death again, and no testament written 400 years later is: 1. legitimate or 2. will ever come into effect.

Where does it say in the Bible, that it is God's complete word.  Your above quote doesn't say that the Bible is complete.  If there were other scripture, it would still be God's Word.

thinking about converting.....

I've also noticed.... at least in my area.... that most all of the Mennonite girls are pretty attractive as well.

When God says:

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

... and people suspend rational thought...

They are in trouble.

Mormonism is a lot like Scientology, but with a basis on Christianity and not scifi.

The higher you go up in its ranks the more things you find out.

Some say it's a cult.

Just stick with plain Christianity it's more fun.








It's a cult, but you get your own planet, so there's that.

I don't know how you are getting the Bible is complete and closed out of that verse.

The phrase "thoroughly furnished"  applies  to the phrase "man of God" preceding it.

Even if you feel it applies to the words "all Scripture", it still doesn't say that there will be no more words given.  Mormons agree with that verse.  All scripture is given by God.  He has given us more to help understand the doctrine, to reproof, to correct false doctrine, and to instruct us in righteousness.

With 30,000 different Christian churches and just as many interpretations of the Bible.in the world today,  it is obvious some corrections are needed.



There is nowhere in the Bible that says it is complete and contains all of Gods Words.  The fact we only have the gospels of 4 of the 12 apostles should say something.  The Bible was compiled by men, often with simple votes of what should be included in it.   Some books were included,  others were left out.  What is in there is true,  but how do we know what was left out is not important also.  Who are men to determine what God's word should be.  

I don't know the specific scripture, but the book of Revelation is written in John's time and actually covers what will happen to the earth and everybody that was ever born past the end times and past the second coming.  That seems to cover everything in my mind. ymmv

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who are troubling you and want to change the good news[c] about the Messiah. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what we have preached to you, a curse be on him![d] 9 As we have said before, I now say again: If anyone preaches to you a gospel contrary to what you received, a curse be on him!

Galatians Chapter 1:6-9

I propose that if we ever get the ability to conduct stellar space travel that we organize a mission to the planet Kobol.  That should be interesting.

He is "thoroughly furnished"  by all scripture.  Again, it does not say or imply that the Bible is complete.  With the Book of Mormon  being scripture, that verse is just as true.  Some people just choose not to believe more of God's word.





How do you know he "Supernaturally Superintended the writing, gathering, and preservation of His Perfect Word ".   It seems that if he was Supernaturally attending it,  we would all be Catholics today. It was Catholic councils that convened to determine which works were cannon.    It's interesting  that so many mainstream Christians believe how divinely appointed the Catholic church was in preparing the scripture, but at the same time, so blatantly wrong, that they felt the need to break away.    

If they were so divinely inspired,  the Catholic interpretation must be the correct one, because "God told them" that is what they should keep.

John 21: 25 doesn't necessarily agree with your statement...

Ah yes, the respectful discourse that Baptists are well known for.

Likewise.  You certainly won't be able to say that we didn't try to share and invite.

And you are taking a huge leap of faith there in that it was all divinely inspired,  looking at much of the darker history of the catholic church.  I think it would have been better if they had included all the writings as part of the Bible. and then as you said,  let us read it and decide.



In relation to the Book of Mormon,

And if it is scripture, and you ignore it, then what?  Maybe you should apply your own test".  "It is now the responsibility of each person to read the Bible Book of Mormon, and make his own decisions about which doctrines are in keeping with the Bible."

When people actually do this with an open mind and without their pre-concieved notions,  they will find out the books and doctrine support and confirm each other.  Unfortunately, many of the so called "experts" on the falseness of the Book of Mormon, have never read it,  but only negative books about it.  Maybe they should try reading it directly before they bash it.  It might surprise them what is actually in there.  It is much more then you are told it is.  And those that think a poor uneducated farm boy could write something of it's magnitude,  are truly flim-flam.



Again, if you feel comfortable that the verse you quoted says the Bible is complete and God will give us no more word,  then that is your choice.  Many have a hard time reading in between the lines and twisting it to reach that conclusion.  

If God has given more word and you choose to ignore it,  that is also your choice.  But I would be careful in dismissing something so quickly and easily without even reading it.  

My take when reading it in the context is that John was saying Jesus performed so many miracles that we didn't write them all down but gave you enough information on what He did that you should be satisfied.........John 20: 30,31