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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:31:30 AM EDT
[#1]
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Lmao @ you guys monday morning QB-ing this pilot... Terrible situation for all involved I'd actually be interested to know if the plane was making any noise at all. Absent a seized engine, shouldn't the prop still rotate due to the wind? And that rotation should cause some sort of cylinder clacking or otherwise, even if it's not running, right? Or does the whole engine have too much compression in it that the prop won't rotate in such a circumstance. If the damn thing was rotating and making any noise at all, you would think people on the beach would turn their head and take notice of it. Maybe not My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:38:41 AM EDT
[#2]
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My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lmao @ you guys monday morning QB-ing this pilot... Terrible situation for all involved I'd actually be interested to know if the plane was making any noise at all. Absent a seized engine, shouldn't the prop still rotate due to the wind? And that rotation should cause some sort of cylinder clacking or otherwise, even if it's not running, right? Or does the whole engine have too much compression in it that the prop won't rotate in such a circumstance. If the damn thing was rotating and making any noise at all, you would think people on the beach would turn their head and take notice of it. Maybe not My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. That guy was a jerk. If anyone is out near our runway, I always fly over once to make sure they know I'm coming. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:47:00 AM EDT
[#3]
A very difficult and sad situation. However, I'm not going to second guess a pilot that is trying to control an aircraft without power that is ready to stop flying. You run out of options very quickly in a situation like this. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 5:43:19 AM EDT
[#4]
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The pilot has released a statement. He said that it was engine failure and he didn't see anyone on the beach. His pastor read the statement. Pilot was not present. Front page story: heraldtribune.com Interpret this how you will. To me it looks like he is sorry it happened but not taking responsibility. That starts by not making the statement himself. This is the first move of many in order to avoid criminal charges as well as defending the inevitable civil case. I guarantee he has lawyered up already and his council wrote the statement. Wow, you have any lottery numbers in that crystal ball of yours? Maybe he just didn't want to be crucified by people like yourself that make judgements without all the information. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 6:09:53 AM EDT
[#5]
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Wow, you have any lottery numbers in that crystal ball of yours? Maybe he just didn't want to be crucified by people like yourself that make judgements without all the information. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The pilot has released a statement. He said that it was engine failure and he didn't see anyone on the beach. His pastor read the statement. Pilot was not present. Front page story: heraldtribune.com Interpret this how you will. To me it looks like he is sorry it happened but not taking responsibility. That starts by not making the statement himself. This is the first move of many in order to avoid criminal charges as well as defending the inevitable civil case. I guarantee he has lawyered up already and his council wrote the statement. Wow, you have any lottery numbers in that crystal ball of yours? Maybe he just didn't want to be crucified by people like yourself that make judgements without all the information. Again, never called for his demise. Just stating he is going to lose big in civil court. GD. The group that doesn't read, doesn't research, just passes judgement on its own members just because they don't share the same opinion. We should have a bet friendly bet: All those that feel that this guy will go unpunished in criminal or civil trial owe those that think he is going to receive a judgement against him in either court a 30rd AR magazine. Deal? We may have to wait a couple of years, but it would be worth it. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 7:39:26 AM EDT
[#6]
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That guy was a jerk. If anyone is out near our runway, I always fly over once to make sure they know I'm coming. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lmao @ you guys monday morning QB-ing this pilot... Terrible situation for all involved I'd actually be interested to know if the plane was making any noise at all. Absent a seized engine, shouldn't the prop still rotate due to the wind? And that rotation should cause some sort of cylinder clacking or otherwise, even if it's not running, right? Or does the whole engine have too much compression in it that the prop won't rotate in such a circumstance. If the damn thing was rotating and making any noise at all, you would think people on the beach would turn their head and take notice of it. Maybe not My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. That guy was a jerk. If anyone is out near our runway, I always fly over once to make sure they know I'm coming. Don't know if your strip is private or not but if you have much experience with private strips then you can probably imagine what this one is like. There's a lot of questionable shenanigans that take place at your average public GA airport. Now magnify that by 10 when dealing with private ones. It's the fucking Wild West. I have to wonder how many of the pilots based here have licenses let alone medicals. I'd say we have at least one unreported incident or accident here every year. It's crazy but it's a damn good time. I don't think I'd want it any other way. Just stay out of the way and don't jog on the runway. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 10:18:58 AM EDT
[#7]
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Don't know if your strip is private or not but if you have much experience with private strips then you can probably imagine what this one is like. There's a lot of questionable shenanigans that take place at your average public GA airport. Now magnify that by 10 when dealing with private ones. It's the fucking Wild West. I have to wonder how many of the pilots based here have licenses let alone medicals. I'd say we have at least one unreported incident or accident here every year. It's crazy but it's a damn good time. I don't think I'd want it any other way. Just stay out of the way and don't jog on the runway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lmao @ you guys monday morning QB-ing this pilot... Terrible situation for all involved I'd actually be interested to know if the plane was making any noise at all. Absent a seized engine, shouldn't the prop still rotate due to the wind? And that rotation should cause some sort of cylinder clacking or otherwise, even if it's not running, right? Or does the whole engine have too much compression in it that the prop won't rotate in such a circumstance. If the damn thing was rotating and making any noise at all, you would think people on the beach would turn their head and take notice of it. Maybe not My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. That guy was a jerk. If anyone is out near our runway, I always fly over once to make sure they know I'm coming. Don't know if your strip is private or not but if you have much experience with private strips then you can probably imagine what this one is like. There's a lot of questionable shenanigans that take place at your average public GA airport. Now magnify that by 10 when dealing with private ones. It's the fucking Wild West. I have to wonder how many of the pilots based here have licenses let alone medicals. I'd say we have at least one unreported incident or accident here every year. It's crazy but it's a damn good time. I don't think I'd want it any other way. Just stay out of the way and don't jog on the runway. Yep, sounds like ours. When I said I would let them know I was coming, I meant that I would let them know that I was coming back, because I don't want to hit them. I didn't describe how I would fly over. 
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Posted: 7/30/2014 11:14:41 AM EDT
[#8]
For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area?
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Posted: 7/30/2014 11:25:52 AM EDT
[#9]
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Well, that sucks. Can't condem the pilot since I wasn't there and don't know what he could or couldn't see or do. I can. And yes, I'm a pilot. If you can't set it down somewhere where you know, KNOW, it to be safe for people on the ground, then set it down somewhere else. Don't hope they'll hear you coming, don't hope they'll get out of the way. Be sure. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:07:22 PM EDT
[#10]
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Again, never called for his demise. Just stating he is going to lose big in civil court. GD. The group that doesn't read, doesn't research, just passes judgement on its own members just because they don't share the same opinion. We should have a bet friendly bet: All those that feel that this guy will go unpunished in criminal or civil trial owe those that think he is going to receive a judgement against him in either court a 30rd AR magazine. Deal? We may have to wait a couple of years, but it would be worth it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The pilot has released a statement. He said that it was engine failure and he didn't see anyone on the beach. His pastor read the statement. Pilot was not present. Front page story: heraldtribune.com Interpret this how you will. To me it looks like he is sorry it happened but not taking responsibility. That starts by not making the statement himself. This is the first move of many in order to avoid criminal charges as well as defending the inevitable civil case. I guarantee he has lawyered up already and his council wrote the statement. Wow, you have any lottery numbers in that crystal ball of yours? Maybe he just didn't want to be crucified by people like yourself that make judgements without all the information. Again, never called for his demise. Just stating he is going to lose big in civil court. GD. The group that doesn't read, doesn't research, just passes judgement on its own members just because they don't share the same opinion. We should have a bet friendly bet: All those that feel that this guy will go unpunished in criminal or civil trial owe those that think he is going to receive a judgement against him in either court a 30rd AR magazine. Deal? We may have to wait a couple of years, but it would be worth it. Unless something comes out of the NTSB report more than we know now to indicate Criminal Negligence. No on the Criminal Side & probably settle for the Max on his Insurance Policy on the Civil Side. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:10:53 PM EDT
[#11]
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? The whole world is "possibly" populated. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:19:00 PM EDT
[#12]
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:21:57 PM EDT
[#13]
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miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:25:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:35:33 PM EDT
[#15]
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Yeah, planes glide so good when the engines die that I don't even know why they keep the engine on after they get to altitude. They should pass a law that says when pilots reach their planned altitude, they have to shut off e engine and then glide to their destination. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:43:26 PM EDT
[#16]
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miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. He landed on a small strip of compacted sand, exactly parallel to the shore. That ain't a brick in my book, that's control. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:47:03 PM EDT
[#17]
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The whole world is "possibly" populated. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? The whole world is "possibly" populated. Of course it is, some places more than others. On that note, don't plow your plane into the higher probability. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:53:09 PM EDT
[#18]
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I can. And yes, I'm a pilot. If you can't set it down somewhere where you know, KNOW, it to be safe for people on the ground, then set it down somewhere else. Don't hope they'll hear you coming, don't hope they'll get out of the way. Be sure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, that sucks. Can't condem the pilot since I wasn't there and don't know what he could or couldn't see or do. I can. And yes, I'm a pilot. If you can't set it down somewhere where you know, KNOW, it to be safe for people on the ground, then set it down somewhere else. Don't hope they'll hear you coming, don't hope they'll get out of the way. Be sure. Since you are a pilot you know there are times when that simply isn't possible. You know that when you're out of altitude and airspeed, you put it on the ground in a controlled way or gravity will put it on the ground for you in an uncontrolled way which is almost always bad. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:57:04 PM EDT
[#19]
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I can. And yes, I'm a pilot. If you can't set it down somewhere where you know, KNOW, it to be safe for people on the ground, then set it down somewhere else. Don't hope they'll hear you coming, don't hope they'll get out of the way. Be sure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, that sucks. Can't condem the pilot since I wasn't there and don't know what he could or couldn't see or do. I can. And yes, I'm a pilot. If you can't set it down somewhere where you know, KNOW, it to be safe for people on the ground, then set it down somewhere else. Don't hope they'll hear you coming, don't hope they'll get out of the way. Be sure. You weren't there. You have no clue what the pilot had time to do, or what he did. All you can do is say what is supposed to be done, that is ,in a controlled situation, other than that, what you have is an opinion which may or may not be correct. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:01:20 PM EDT
[#20]
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They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. Again, no one knows what his altitude was to determine what kind of time he had before hitting the ground. You can't tell or say what happened because you, like the rest of us, don't have the factual information. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:18:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Article on Ditching
"Those who have ditched slow, fixed-gear aircraft, however, report that the main gear digging in during initial impact prevents the aircraft from skipping and subsequently striking the water in a stalled, nose-low attitude. The aircraft simply decelerates rapidly with the nose burrowing only slightly. Fixed-gear proponents claim this is safer than risking the secondary, nose-low impact frequently associated with retractables." |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:26:38 PM EDT
[#22]
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They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. 6:1 on that plane in optimal conditions, extra weight and/or headwind will effect that. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:52:44 PM EDT
[#23]
Damn, read that the injured girl that the plane hit died too, today. :(
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Posted: 7/30/2014 2:08:43 PM EDT
[#24]
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6:1 on that plane in optimal conditions, extra weight and/or headwind will effect that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. 6:1 on that plane in optimal conditions, extra weight and/or headwind will effect that. Where are you getting 6:1? The point is still that the pilot knew or should have known that there were people on the beach, and he should have taken the responsibility land elsewhere, even if it was more dangerous to himself and his aircraft. It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:16:06 PM EDT
[#25]
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They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. S turns in an engine out landing? Was never taught that.... Seems right up there with turning around for the runway if you suffer an engine issue on takeoff. He may have set up for a landing and never seen them, or been too low and slow to do anything if he did. All conjecture at this point Anyway he ran out of airspeed altitude and ideas.... FWIW PPL SEL MEL |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:23:34 PM EDT
[#26]
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miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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For the guys saying that the pilot didn't/couldn't see the victims (due to limited sight, tunnel vision, etc), isn't this more reason to not land in a possibly populated area? miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. No they don't. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:30:25 PM EDT
[#27]
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... S turns in an engine out landing? Was never taught that.... Seems right up there with turning around for the runway if you suffer an engine issue on takeoff. He may have set up for a landing and never seen them, or been too low and slow to do anything if he did. All conjecture at this point Anyway he ran out of airspeed altitude and ideas.... FWIW PPL SEL MEL Didn't run out of airspeed, ran out of altitude. As for ideas, who knows, we weren't there. As for your training, it's a poor pilot that slavishly adheres to strict rote training without considering the conditions at hand. Once he was within a couple of hundred feet of the beach, maneuvering options were pretty well gone except for minor lateral adjustments. Apparently he didn't see the people on the beach, and that is not surprising; consider the contrast between an adult and the beach in the background. Shirt off is worse, they're close enough to the same color. The 6:1 glide ratio mentioned above is probably about right, except it's the effective glide made good over the ground in a headwind, not the still air glide. Shoot, I've landed a glider in a strong headwind in which I achieved about 1:1 over the ground. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:32:13 PM EDT
[#28]
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My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lmao @ you guys monday morning QB-ing this pilot... Terrible situation for all involved I'd actually be interested to know if the plane was making any noise at all. Absent a seized engine, shouldn't the prop still rotate due to the wind? And that rotation should cause some sort of cylinder clacking or otherwise, even if it's not running, right? Or does the whole engine have too much compression in it that the prop won't rotate in such a circumstance. If the damn thing was rotating and making any noise at all, you would think people on the beach would turn their head and take notice of it. Maybe not My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. Like on a runway? 
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:39:29 PM EDT
[#29]
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The pilot is responsible for that operation of the flight and if he's found negligent will be held responsible. The idea that you guys just want pilots to fly straight into terra firma at the first sign of trouble rather than taking reasonable actions to minimize injuries and damage overall is incredible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Instructed? 
"But there's people on the beach!" "fuck em" Nice way to shirk responsibility. I didn't say he intentionally aimed for people, but he intentionally landed on a beach with people on it. The pilot is responsible for that operation of the flight and if he's found negligent will be held responsible. The idea that you guys just want pilots to fly straight into terra firma at the first sign of trouble rather than taking reasonable actions to minimize injuries and damage overall is incredible. What would the Great Santini do? |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:42:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Just read the girl died this morning.
Bummer. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 3:51:35 PM EDT
[#31]
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Where are you getting 6:1? The point is still that the pilot knew or should have known that there were people on the beach, and he should have taken the responsibility land elsewhere, even if it was more dangerous to himself and his aircraft. It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. 6:1 on that plane in optimal conditions, extra weight and/or headwind will effect that. Where are you getting 6:1? The point is still that the pilot knew or should have known that there were people on the beach, and he should have taken the responsibility land elsewhere, even if it was more dangerous to himself and his aircraft. It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Not that it matters but so long as we keep throwing out bullshit numbers, the actual glide ratio of the PA-28-181 is nearly 8:1. That's straight from the PA-28-181 Pilots Operating Handbook. It's on page 41. But again, we don't know what altitude this occured at or if he managed to achieve best glide speed in a timely fashion. Also, we don't know what his weight was so we can't calculate what his VVI was. Thus, we have no idea how much time he had to deal with his problem. Folks, we just don't know enough yet. |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 4:02:18 PM EDT
[#32]
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6:1 on that plane in optimal conditions, extra weight and/or headwind will effect that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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miss that part about engine failure?.......small aircraft glide like bricks. Not true. The plane has a glide ability and was not ready to "stop flying" as long as the pilot did not stall it. They glide a lot better than "like bricks". Most small aircraft are put to idle on final. Try that with a jet. Well, actually, don't. Glide ratio is probably around 10:1. So if the pilot was 1000' AGL, he'd have nearly two miles of travel to work with. Of course at best glide speed of around 80, that's less than two minutes of time, but certainly enough distance to do some gentle S turns to see what's going on. 6:1 on that plane in optimal conditions, extra weight and/or headwind will effect that. Believe it or not but weight doesn't effect glide ratio. This answer is illustrated by a favorite aeronautical trivia question: Imagine 2 planes flying at the same speed, altitude and direction wing tip to wing tip. The aircraft are identical except that one is at its max flight weight and the other is at its min flight weight. At the exact same time the pilots of both planes shutdown their engines. Which plane glides farther? Answer: they glide the exact same distance. It's just that the heavier one gets there first as his best glide speed is higher. I can almost hear the minds blowing... |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 4:03:34 PM EDT
[#33]
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Not that it matters but so long as we keep throwing out bullshit numbers, the actual glide ratio of the PA-28-181 is nearly 8:1. That's straight from the PA-28-181 Pilots Operating Handbook. It's on page 41. But again, we don't know what altitude this occured at or if he managed to achieve best glide speed in a timely fashion. Also, we don't know what his weight was so we can't calculate what his VVI was. Thus, we have no idea how much time he had to deal with his problem. Folks, we just don't know enough yet. Not that it matters to GD, but I think I've been trying to make that Point, too...... |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 4:10:27 PM EDT
[#34]
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Like on a runway? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Lmao @ you guys monday morning QB-ing this pilot... Terrible situation for all involved I'd actually be interested to know if the plane was making any noise at all. Absent a seized engine, shouldn't the prop still rotate due to the wind? And that rotation should cause some sort of cylinder clacking or otherwise, even if it's not running, right? Or does the whole engine have too much compression in it that the prop won't rotate in such a circumstance. If the damn thing was rotating and making any noise at all, you would think people on the beach would turn their head and take notice of it. Maybe not My family lives on a private 3000' community runway. When I lived closer to them it was a favorite place of mine to jog right along the edge of the runway. Jogging early in the mornings there gave me an easy way of knowing exactly how far I had run, let me be around dew covered airplanes, spectacular sunrises, and when I was done my mom always had a great breakfast waiting for me. I did this quite regularly until the morning I was running along and a plane landed right next to me after having flown a straight in final behind me. I wasn't listening to music. Just pounding the asphalt. Never heard a damn thing until it passed me, engine idling, and our neighbor smiling and waving as he passed me. It completely unnerved me. I tried to keep running there after that but running while looking over your shoulder was too distracting for me so I quit running there. Most planes produce noticeable engine noise on final. Turbine aircraft in particular. But small, piston powered aircraft, at idle thrust, can be sneaky bastards. Especially if you're facing upwind into a good breeze creating some wind noise. And even more so if you're in a location where you'd never suspect a plane to be. Like on a runway? Or on a beach.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 8:14:45 PM EDT
[#35]
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Didn't run out of airspeed, ran out of altitude. As for ideas, who knows, we weren't there. As for your training, it's a poor pilot that slavishly adheres to strict rote training without considering the conditions at hand. Once he was within a couple of hundred feet of the beach, maneuvering options were pretty well gone except for minor lateral adjustments. Apparently he didn't see the people on the beach, and that is not surprising; consider the contrast between an adult and the beach in the background. Shirt off is worse, they're close enough to the same color. The 6:1 glide ratio mentioned above is probably about right, except it's the effective glide made good over the ground in a headwind, not the still air glide. Shoot, I've landed a glider in a strong headwind in which I achieved about 1:1 over the ground. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... S turns in an engine out landing? Was never taught that.... Seems right up there with turning around for the runway if you suffer an engine issue on takeoff. He may have set up for a landing and never seen them, or been too low and slow to do anything if he did. All conjecture at this point Anyway he ran out of airspeed altitude and ideas.... FWIW PPL SEL MEL Didn't run out of airspeed, ran out of altitude. As for ideas, who knows, we weren't there. As for your training, it's a poor pilot that slavishly adheres to strict rote training without considering the conditions at hand. Once he was within a couple of hundred feet of the beach, maneuvering options were pretty well gone except for minor lateral adjustments. Apparently he didn't see the people on the beach, and that is not surprising; consider the contrast between an adult and the beach in the background. Shirt off is worse, they're close enough to the same color. The 6:1 glide ratio mentioned above is probably about right, except it's the effective glide made good over the ground in a headwind, not the still air glide. Shoot, I've landed a glider in a strong headwind in which I achieved about 1:1 over the ground. Got entry of training from civilian and military instructors. The rote training. Gets to to the point where you can consider options based on the situation. You set up for best glide, feather prop,etc. you'd better know the rote stuff like how much drag transitioning the gear in an O2-A adds, the. You choose the best time. Some actions need to be instinctive. Now your mind can adapt. Check lists are essential even after 27 years as a pilot and 10 years in the same plane I use a written kneeboarding checklist. Kinda rote but never failed me yet. We do not have all the info yet |
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Posted: 7/30/2014 8:47:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Lots of egocentric "my needs come first" shit in this thread.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 11:00:43 PM EDT
[#37]
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Lots of egocentric "my needs come first" shit in this thread. I have not read a single post where anyone said anything close to that. Please quote one. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 7:09:04 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 7:53:40 AM EDT
[#39]
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Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. And the reality is that he's going to get sued into the next century, and he's going to lose, because most people aren't going to agree that people reasonably assume the risk of being run over by an airplane as they walk on the beach. Drowning? Sure. Being stung by a jellyfish? Yep. Hit by a plane? Nope, that's going to be on the pilot. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:10:31 AM EDT
[#40]
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Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:15:25 AM EDT
[#41]
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So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... The comment was about risk, not culpability. You absolutely put others at risk every time you drive a car. ETA: ...and you accept that risk from others. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:30:21 AM EDT
[#42]
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The comment was about risk, not culpability. You absolutely put others at risk every time you drive a car. ETA: ...and you accept that risk from others. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... The comment was about risk, not culpability. You absolutely put others at risk every time you drive a car. ETA: ...and you accept that risk from others. That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:39:49 AM EDT
[#43]
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That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Acquitted assumes that they are charged in the first place. Managing risk is the entire point of the discussion that you are arguing against on the entire basis that there was a bad outcome. The pilot may have made a wrong choice. He also may have made a right choice given the information available at the time and just had a bad outcome. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:51:26 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... I said risk, not culpability. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 8:56:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's terribly unlucky all the way around. One takes risks when flying (or flying in) a single-engine light plane. Those risks should be borne by those in the plane, not those walking on the ground. Wrong. Risks are bourne by everyone. If you go walking around outside or stay in your house, you already assume a risk that something might fall out of the sky and punch your ticket. Whether it's a jetliner, a meteor, a lightning bolt, a tree, a light plane, a crashing military jet, a suicidal jumper, a screaming skydiver, etc. Righteous indignation means nothing. Only reality matters. So the beachwalker had some degree of culpability is his own death because of gravity and faulty mechanics/ bad maintenance/ pilot failure/ parts failure/ etc....and the guy in the plane has a reduced degree of responsibility because 'shit happens'? It's funny that the driving rules on the highway don't work that way... The comment was about risk, not culpability. You absolutely put others at risk every time you drive a car. ETA: ...and you accept that risk from others. That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. People have accidents which kill pedestrians all the time. I daresay that unless there is serious evidence of intoxication or some other criminal action being committed, there would be an "acquittal" most of the time. Can you list even one instance where a guy had a mechanical failure on his car, inadvertently killed someone on the sidewalk, was charged in criminal court, and found guilty? One other item to note. Bad outcomes don't need justification. They happen whether they are justified or not. We have not yet (thankfully) become a society where summary executions are carried out every time someone gets killed by accident. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 9:12:46 AM EDT
[#46]
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Damn, read that the injured girl that the plane hit died too, today. :( came to post this |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 9:14:20 AM EDT
[#47]
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That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The comment was about risk, not culpability. You absolutely put others at risk every time you drive a car. ETA: ...and you accept that risk from others. That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. I agree with you, and the pilot's actions will be judged, and if found to be negligent, he will, and should be held accountable. The only argument that I have a problem with is from those who say that he should have crashed in the water by default, because there might be people on the beach. It was his responsibility to avoid anyone on the ground. He failed at that, and we don't know why. But using that logic, we have no right to fly airplanes, because that's the only way to make absolutely certain that you're not putting anyone on the ground at risk. Ban them, for the children. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 9:56:50 AM EDT
[#48]
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... Got entry of training from civilian and military instructors. The rote training. Gets to to the point where you can consider options based on the situation. You set up for best glide, feather prop,etc. you'd better know the rote stuff like how much drag transitioning the gear in an O2-A adds, the. You choose the best time. Some actions need to be instinctive. Now your mind can adapt. Check lists are essential even after 27 years as a pilot and 10 years in the same plane I use a written kneeboarding checklist. Kinda rote but never failed me yet. We do not have all the info yet You don't understand the meaning of rote training. |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 10:56:48 AM EDT
[#49]
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Acquitted assumes that they are charged in the first place. Managing risk is the entire point of the discussion that you are arguing against on the entire basis that there was a bad outcome. The pilot may have made a wrong choice. He also may have made a right choice given the information available at the time and just had a bad outcome. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Acquitted assumes that they are charged in the first place. Managing risk is the entire point of the discussion that you are arguing against on the entire basis that there was a bad outcome. The pilot may have made a wrong choice. He also may have made a right choice given the information available at the time and just had a bad outcome. Planes falling out of the sky aren't an act of god. Somebody screwed up somewhere. There's a reason the plane wasn't able to do what it was designed to do. And that falls back to choices somebody made. The risk is assumed by someone operating a flying object when shit happens (resulting in it falling out of the sky and that killing someone). If you kill a pedestrian on a sidewalk with a car because of a mechanical failure or failing to do what you are required to do while driving, there's a price to pay. If you are driving along and are knocked off the road by a negligent driver and that kills someone, the one that knocked you into the pedestrian will pay. It may not have been intentional, but the risk was assumed for properly operating the vehicle as the driver. If you have a blow out from a worn out tire- your fault. Defective tire- manufacturers' fault. You are arguing that the risks assumed were the same for both the pilot (when emergency landing a disabled plane onto a beach) and the beach comber (walking a beach). That ain't so. He did not make a right decision, if there were other options available that would have not resulted in a bad outcome for a faultless person, by choosing the one that ended in death of the innocent. He committed to a decision that was wrong in the end. He weighed the risks wrong and made a bad decision (because he killed someone with the plane he was flying). He chose to land on the beach resulting in death of an innocent (with no malicious intent in all probability). That was the risk he assumed. He is not blameless. ETA: that is scary with your link. It's just another example of the anomie of the society IMO. If you can make bad decisions and kill people with no consequence, it doesn't leave much room for civility to continue. Who knows the conditions? Rich folk in cars killing poor folk walking. Illegals running over legals. Who knows? Apathy and lawlessness- our future. Yeah!!! |
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Posted: 7/31/2014 11:36:36 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Planes falling out of the sky aren't an act of god. Somebody screwed up somewhere. There's a reason the plane wasn't able to do what it was designed to do. And that falls back to choices somebody made. The risk is assumed by someone operating a flying object when shit happens (resulting in it falling out of the sky and that killing someone). If you kill a pedestrian on a sidewalk with a car because of a mechanical failure or failing to do what you are required to do while driving, there's a price to pay. If you are driving along and are knocked off the road by a negligent driver and that kills someone, the one that knocked you into the pedestrian will pay. It may not have been intentional, but the risk was assumed for properly operating the vehicle as the driver. If you have a blow out from a worn out tire- your fault. Defective tire- manufacturers' fault. You are arguing that the risks assumed were the same for both the pilot (when emergency landing a disabled plane onto a beach) and the beach comber (walking a beach). That ain't so. He did not make a right decision, if there were other options available that would have not resulted in a bad outcome for a faultless person, by choosing the one that ended in death of the innocent. He committed to a decision that was wrong in the end. He weighed the risks wrong and made a bad decision (because he killed someone with the plane he was flying). He chose to land on the beach resulting in death of an innocent (with no malicious intent in all probability). That was the risk he assumed. He is not blameless. ETA: that is scary with your link. It's just another example of the anomie of the society IMO. If you can make bad decisions and kill people with no consequence, it doesn't leave much room for civility to continue. Who knows the conditions? Rich folk in cars killing poor folk walking. Illegals running over legals. Who knows? Apathy and lawlessness- our future. Yeah!!! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's true. And that's why there are rules. To mitigate those risks. People generally can make a pretty good assumption that they won't get killed by a plane falling out of the sky on any given day. Because there are rules governing people who fly planes and the maintenance of planes flown in the skies. As it is for people driving and maintaining their cars. What's going on here is justification of a bad outcome by arguing that the beachwalker was at some risk by his own actions. That his choices were bad. His choices weren't bad, they were unfortunate. He's not the one at fault here for his death because 'shit happens'. The plane failed. And/ or the pilot failed. The failure isn't born by the victim for being someplace at some given time for somebody else's failure that resulted in death at that place and time. Maybe you can show me where a driver was acquitted of a highway death as the result of a mechanical or driver failure that resulted in the death of a pedestrian on a sidewalk. Acquitted assumes that they are charged in the first place. Managing risk is the entire point of the discussion that you are arguing against on the entire basis that there was a bad outcome. The pilot may have made a wrong choice. He also may have made a right choice given the information available at the time and just had a bad outcome. Planes falling out of the sky aren't an act of god. Somebody screwed up somewhere. There's a reason the plane wasn't able to do what it was designed to do. And that falls back to choices somebody made. The risk is assumed by someone operating a flying object when shit happens (resulting in it falling out of the sky and that killing someone). If you kill a pedestrian on a sidewalk with a car because of a mechanical failure or failing to do what you are required to do while driving, there's a price to pay. If you are driving along and are knocked off the road by a negligent driver and that kills someone, the one that knocked you into the pedestrian will pay. It may not have been intentional, but the risk was assumed for properly operating the vehicle as the driver. If you have a blow out from a worn out tire- your fault. Defective tire- manufacturers' fault. You are arguing that the risks assumed were the same for both the pilot (when emergency landing a disabled plane onto a beach) and the beach comber (walking a beach). That ain't so. He did not make a right decision, if there were other options available that would have not resulted in a bad outcome for a faultless person, by choosing the one that ended in death of the innocent. He committed to a decision that was wrong in the end. He weighed the risks wrong and made a bad decision (because he killed someone with the plane he was flying). He chose to land on the beach resulting in death of an innocent (with no malicious intent in all probability). That was the risk he assumed. He is not blameless. ETA: that is scary with your link. It's just another example of the anomie of the society IMO. If you can make bad decisions and kill people with no consequence, it doesn't leave much room for civility to continue. Who knows the conditions? Rich folk in cars killing poor folk walking. Illegals running over legals. Who knows? Apathy and lawlessness- our future. Yeah!!! |
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