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Posted: 7/28/2014 10:17:29 PM EDT
[#1]
I am not a pilot, but I've spent plenty of time on beaches in Florida...and there's not a chance in hell I'd try to land in that "grassy area" shown on the satellite maps. Those sandy patches between the trees aren't nice, straight runways...and the sugar sand back up off of the beach is ridiculously soft, so the gear is going to dig in almost instantly.
While I get that a plane coming in with a dead engine is pretty damn quiet, I still can't quite wrap my head around people being so oblivious as to completely ignore it. The only thing I can see is if the father and daughter were walking away from the plane, and absolutely no one else was on the beach within hundreds of yards to shout a warning. You'd particularly expect a combat veteran to have a bit better situational awareness than that. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 11:01:19 PM EDT
[#2]
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Let's see. Guy flies plane, has trouble, has to land, knows that water will jam up his safety, as it will grab his gear, decides to land on beach where someone is walking. Yeah, tough noogies, man. He should have manned up. He better hope a few Uncles of the kid don't come looking for him. Hopefully when they do, he puts them down with a CCW. 
Anybody who comes after someone for a death caused by an accident through no fault of their own deserves to be put down like the rabid dogs that they are. 
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Posted: 7/29/2014 2:46:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You'd particularly expect a combat veteran to have a bit better situational awareness than that. I understand what you're saying though. Beaches are for landing airplanes on, not for people walking and playing.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 3:02:07 AM EDT
[#4]
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blame the victim. that's nice Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You'd particularly expect a combat veteran to have a bit better situational awareness than that. And what's the speed on those things without the engine on descent? I'm betting it's still incredibly fast (in relation to a human being able to react to it) and covers a sizable distance in short order. It's not like your normal situational awareness is in play geared off the speed and proximity of a regular predator (man or animal). This is a big, heavy, fast moving, very quiet object descending down upon you from out of nowhere in the sky. I'm thinking situational awareness, in the normal sense, is out the window. (I am in no way implying that the pilot intentionally ran the man and his daughter down) |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 3:20:02 AM EDT
[#5]
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And what's the speed on those things without the engine on descent? I'm betting it's still incredibly fast (in relation to a human being able to react to it) and covers a sizable distance in short order. It's not like your normal situational awareness is in play geared off the speed and proximity of a regular predator (man or animal). This is a big, heavy, fast moving, very quiet object descending down upon you from out of nowhere in the sky. I'm thinking situational awareness, in the normal sense, is out the window. (I am in no way implying that the pilot intentionally ran the man and his daughter down) Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You'd particularly expect a combat veteran to have a bit better situational awareness than that. And what's the speed on those things without the engine on descent? I'm betting it's still incredibly fast (in relation to a human being able to react to it) and covers a sizable distance in short order. It's not like your normal situational awareness is in play geared off the speed and proximity of a regular predator (man or animal). This is a big, heavy, fast moving, very quiet object descending down upon you from out of nowhere in the sky. I'm thinking situational awareness, in the normal sense, is out the window. (I am in no way implying that the pilot intentionally ran the man and his daughter down) Stall speed is about 49 kts. So approach speed engine on/off is about 60 - 65 kts. After reading the last few pages of this, the new school year can not come soon enough. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 4:26:31 AM EDT
[#6]
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Stall speed is about 49 kts. So approach speed engine on/off is about 60 - 65 kts. After reading the last few pages of this, the new school year can not come soon enough. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You'd particularly expect a combat veteran to have a bit better situational awareness than that. And what's the speed on those things without the engine on descent? I'm betting it's still incredibly fast (in relation to a human being able to react to it) and covers a sizable distance in short order. It's not like your normal situational awareness is in play geared off the speed and proximity of a regular predator (man or animal). This is a big, heavy, fast moving, very quiet object descending down upon you from out of nowhere in the sky. I'm thinking situational awareness, in the normal sense, is out the window. (I am in no way implying that the pilot intentionally ran the man and his daughter down) Stall speed is about 49 kts. So approach speed engine on/off is about 60 - 65 kts. After reading the last few pages of this, the new school year can not come soon enough. Kids talking hardcore on the internet because they know if they say illogical shit they'll be picked on and god forbid their feelings get hurt. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 6:10:50 AM EDT
[#7]
I do not know the descent rate of that aircraft at best glide airspeed and engine off but will assume 750 feet/minute (FPM). If the pilot was approaching the Venice airport to land he could have been 800-1000 feet above the ground. Using 1000 feet that is about 80 seconds to landing. Add another 20 seconds or so to bleed off higher airspeed and he may have had about 100 seconds from engine stoppage to landing.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 6:11:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:02:21 AM EDT
[#9]
http://news.msn.com/us/georgia-girl-struck-by-plane-on-florida-beach-dies
Article confirms little girl has died. Says the family was there celebrating the parents' anniversary. 
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:06:26 AM EDT
[#10]
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http://news.msn.com/us/georgia-girl-struck-by-plane-on-florida-beach-dies Article confirms little girl has died. Says the family was there celebrating the parents' anniversary.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:12:13 AM EDT
[#11]
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Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too 
Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 7:29:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And all have the basic question. Do you kill an innocent to save yourself? Of course not. Why would you even ask such a stupid question? |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:23:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Yes, the girl has died.
If you look at the satellite image you will see plenty of space just to the east. I don't get why those that are confused just Google the beach and look at the satelite images. Also, for those that don't have a clue about this area, why speculate? Why are you so apt to condemn or discredit actual residents of the area? Sounds like you just want to be contrary and stick up for a guy that seriously screwed up. By the way, the pilot is from the area. He knows this airport and the surroundings very well. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:25:32 AM EDT
[#14]
So have they determined if the victims were hit by debris or by the plane? If the propeller wasn't spinning, what debris would have enough energy to kill them both? |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:26:44 AM EDT
[#15]
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So have they determined if the victims were hit by debris or by the plane? If the propeller wasn't spinning, what debris would have enough energy to kill them both? The nose gear. ETA:It's rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:30:46 AM EDT
[#16]
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The nose gear. ETA:It's rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So have they determined if the victims were hit by debris or by the plane? If the propeller wasn't spinning, what debris would have enough energy to kill them both? The nose gear. ETA:It's rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip. Well then, fuck that dude. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:33:50 AM EDT
[#17]
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Well then, fuck that dude. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So have they determined if the victims were hit by debris or by the plane? If the propeller wasn't spinning, what debris would have enough energy to kill them both? The nose gear. ETA:It's rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip. Well then, fuck that dude. I said that it was rather apparent, but that is, of course, speculation based on the damage.. I would have remove the statement, but you already quoted me. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:36:02 AM EDT
[#18]
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I said that it was rather apparent, but that is, of course, speculation based on the damage.. I would have remove the statement, but you already quoted me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So have they determined if the victims were hit by debris or by the plane? If the propeller wasn't spinning, what debris would have enough energy to kill them both? The nose gear. ETA:It's rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip. Well then, fuck that dude. I said that it was rather apparent, but that is, of course, speculation based on the damage.. I would have remove the statement, but you already quoted me. Nah, I just looked at the photos from the article. Lots of damage to the leading edge of left wing. If it had hit the sand, the plane would have cartwheeled. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:39:52 AM EDT
[#19]
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I said that it was rather apparent, but that is, of course, speculation based on the damage.. I would have remove the statement, but you already quoted me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So have they determined if the victims were hit by debris or by the plane? If the propeller wasn't spinning, what debris would have enough energy to kill them both? The nose gear. ETA:It's rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip. Well then, fuck that dude. I said that it was rather apparent, but that is, of course, speculation based on the damage.. I would have remove the statement, but you already quoted me. I don't think it's unreasonable to say "rather apparent that they were clipped with the wingtip." That is indeed seemingly what happened. We will have to wait for the NTSB report. Is that an Aeronca in your avatar? -Ed |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 8:53:52 AM EDT
[#20]
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Is that an Aeronca in your avatar? -Ed Yes, it's my Champ, or my "paper airplane", as my wife calls it. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 9:06:56 AM EDT
[#21]
That's such a tough call. I spend a lot of time thinking about what I would do if the fan stopped. That's why I like the Eastern Shore. The highest point is something like 28' MSL, and it's just one field after another. I have flown under the Philadelphia Class B and near NYC at night, and over the endless forests near the Finger Lakes at night. I do it, but I don't really enjoy it. I would prefer a flight over water, assuming proper equipment on board. Sometimes there's no good answer, just bad and worse answers.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 9:11:10 AM EDT
[#22]
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Yes, the girl has died. If you look at the satellite image you will see plenty of space just to the east. I don't get why those that are confused just Google the beach and look at the satelite images. Also, for those that don't have a clue about this area, why speculate? Why are you so apt to condemn or discredit actual residents of the area? Sounds like you just want to be contrary and stick up for a guy that seriously screwed up. By the way, the pilot is from the area. He knows this airport and the surroundings very well. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 9:12:35 AM EDT
[#23]
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So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yes, the girl has died. If you look at the satellite image you will see plenty of space just to the east. I don't get why those that are confused just Google the beach and look at the satelite images. Also, for those that don't have a clue about this area, why speculate? Why are you so apt to condemn or discredit actual residents of the area? Sounds like you just want to be contrary and stick up for a guy that seriously screwed up. By the way, the pilot is from the area. He knows this airport and the surroundings very well. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. That pilot had a lot of boyfriends. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 9:13:55 AM EDT
[#24]
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If I ever have plane trouble I know a good playground I should be able to land on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water This is my thought too. Killing people to save your own life is fucked up when the option exists to keep innocents safe. So let me get this straight. Pilot instructed to try to land on beach. Crashes. Debris hits bystanders, and you somehow extrapolate that into intentionally aiming near people to save his own skin? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile According to the Sheriff's Office, the pilot reported at 2:45 p.m. that he was having trouble with his plane, a 1972 Piper Cherokee. He reported that he was unable to make it back to the nearby Venice Airport and planned to land on the beach. If I ever have plane trouble I know a good playground I should be able to land on. 
Is that playground long, flat and relatively clear of obstacles that you'd run into while landing? |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 9:19:23 AM EDT
[#25]
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Of course not. Why would you even ask such a stupid question? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And all have the basic question. Do you kill an innocent to save yourself? Of course not. Why would you even ask such a stupid question? It's unfair to me to trim the rest of my post because there are MANY, probably MOST would run the cyclist off the road to prevent a head on with a dump truck. Soldiers and Marines have had to kill innocents who were shielding those who were shooting at them. So, I think it's a valid question. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:12:39 AM EDT
[#26]
I'm a bit in the same boat as you. I don't think that not seeing the victims is a reasonable excuse unless it's because they ran out in front of him, unexpectantly changing his landing zone at the last second. If you can't see where you're landing then you've got some serious issues. For those that claim they can't see their touch down zone over the cowling when they're on any segment of final, excluding the flair, then buy a fucking seat cushion.
On the other hand I have to remind myself that it's not reasonable for us to expect this guy to perform to the same level as those of us that do this every day for a living and are fortunate enough to receive professional flight training in full motion simulators every 6 months. I'm guessing he's probably pretty inexperienced in the grand scheme of things. Also, it shouldn't be too amazing to realize that a pilot can't be completely aware of the quality of every alternative landing site surrounding his area of common operations. If he's like most pilots, he probably only flies a couple times a month for an hour at a time. That doesn't excuse him from being responsible for the damages casued by his actions but it certainly makes it a bit more morally understandable. I'm sure (I hope) this pilot feels like shit. I'm sure nobody is second guessing his actions more than him right now. I'll bet he wishes he put it in the drink. The questions I want to see answered out of this are (to name a few): - Was the aircraft properly maintained and within annual inspection - Was the pilot properly certified and current - What was the cause of the emergency - Was it preventable by the pilot (better fuel and flight planning, better preflight etc...) - Was it preventable by the owner/operator (better maintenance) - How much time did the pilot have to react to the emergency - Was he even close in his handling of emergency procedures - What did the pilot do immeadiately following the accident? Did he attempt to render first aid? These are all within the realm of standard NTSB investigations. Once those are answered I'll make up my mind if fuck need be upon him. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:17:57 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Might as well add me too Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:20:47 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes, the girl has died. If you look at the satellite image you will see plenty of space just to the east. I don't get why those that are confused just Google the beach and look at the satelite images. Also, for those that don't have a clue about this area, why speculate? Why are you so apt to condemn or discredit actual residents of the area? Sounds like you just want to be contrary and stick up for a guy that seriously screwed up. By the way, the pilot is from the area. He knows this airport and the surroundings very well. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:30:25 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, the girl has died. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. This is what I love about what America has become. An accident happens, and random instigators (none of whom actually give a shit about the people involved) want to inspire or participate in a mob lynching.  Hopefully some rabid idiot will try to exact revenge, get killed in the process, and the host will get charged as an accessory to murder. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:35:33 AM EDT
[#30]
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What if there were snorkelers, surfers, or someone fishing 50 yards off shore? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too
Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. Then at least he'd be able to make the reasonable excuse that he couldn't see them because they were underwater. Also, appearances are everything. If you put up the appearance that you were willing to risk the more difficult and aircraft damaging landing to save lives on the beach and in so doing you took the life of a guy snorkeling then you will find it much easier to get a pass in the court of public opinion. At this point, it's only natural (even if flawed) for the general public to assume he went for the beach to attempt to save his own skin and aircraft at the hazard of those preoccupying the beach. Do you have reason to believe there was somebody in the water adjacent to where he landed on the beach? I can't help but doubt there was. There's a saying in this biz with regards to priorities. The list of priorities in this order are "skin, tin, and ticket." Saving "skin" doesn't apply to only the pilot. We have a moral and ethical obligation to protect the skin of everyone around us (and I would say more than our own). After you've saved your skin try to save the aircraft. Worry about your ticket last. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:42:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then at least he'd be able to make the reasonable excuse that he couldn't see them because they were underwater. Also, appearances are everything. If you put up the appearance that you were willing to risk the more difficult and aircraft damaging landing to save lives on the beach and in so doing you took the life of a guy snorkeling then you will find it much easier to get a pass in the court of public opinion. At this point, it's only natural (even if flawed) for the general public to assume he went for the beach to attempt to save his own skin and aircraft at the hazard of those preoccupying the beach. Do you have reason to believe there was somebody in the water adjacent to where he landed on the beach? I can't help but doubt there was. There's a saying in this biz with regards to priorities. The list of priorities in this order are "skin, tin, and ticket." Saving "skin" doesn't apply to only the pilot. We have a moral and ethical obligation to protect the skin of everyone around us (and I would say more than our own). After you've saved your skin try to save the aircraft. Worry about your ticket last. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. Then at least he'd be able to make the reasonable excuse that he couldn't see them because they were underwater. Also, appearances are everything. If you put up the appearance that you were willing to risk the more difficult and aircraft damaging landing to save lives on the beach and in so doing you took the life of a guy snorkeling then you will find it much easier to get a pass in the court of public opinion. At this point, it's only natural (even if flawed) for the general public to assume he went for the beach to attempt to save his own skin and aircraft at the hazard of those preoccupying the beach. Do you have reason to believe there was somebody in the water adjacent to where he landed on the beach? I can't help but doubt there was. There's a saying in this biz with regards to priorities. The list of priorities in this order are "skin, tin, and ticket." Saving "skin" doesn't apply to only the pilot. We have a moral and ethical obligation to protect the skin of everyone around us (and I would say more than our own). After you've saved your skin try to save the aircraft. Worry about your ticket last. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:45:55 AM EDT
[#32]
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What if there were snorkelers, surfers, or someone fishing 50 yards off shore? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too
Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. What if there were snorkelers, surfers, or someone fishing 50 yards off shore? I know you're just being facetious, but you know damn well the likelihood of that is quite low compared to people on the beach. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:48:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know you're just being facetious, but you know damn well the likelihood of that is quite low compared to people on the beach. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. What if there were snorkelers, surfers, or someone fishing 50 yards off shore? I know you're just being facetious, but you know damn well the likelihood of that is quite low compared to people on the beach. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:48:56 AM EDT
[#34]
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I'm a bit in the same boat as you. I don't think that not seeing the victims is a reasonable excuse unless it's because they ran out in front of him, unexpectantly changing his landing zone at the last second. If you can't see where you're landing then you've got some serious issues. For those that claim they can't see their touch down zone over the cowling when they're on any segment of final, excluding the flair, then buy a fucking seat cushion. On the other hand I have to remind myself that it's not reasonable for us to expect this guy to perform to the same level as those of us that do this every day for a living and are fortunate enough to receive professional flight training in full motion simulators every 6 months. I'm guessing he's probably pretty inexperienced in the grand scheme of things. Also, it shouldn't be too amazing to realize that a pilot can't be completely aware of the quality of every alternative landing site surrounding his area of common operations. If he's like most pilots, he probably only flies a couple times a month for an hour at a time. That doesn't excuse him from being responsible for the damages casued by his actions but it certainly makes it a bit more morally understandable. I'm sure (I hope) this pilot feels like shit. I'm sure nobody is second guessing his actions more than him right now. I'll bet he wishes he put it in the drink. The questions I want to see answered out of this are (to name a few): - Was the aircraft properly maintained and within annual inspection - Was the pilot properly certified and current - What was the cause of the emergency - Was it preventable by the pilot (better fuel and flight planning, better preflight etc...) - Was it preventable by the owner/operator (better maintenance) - How much time did the pilot have to react to the emergency - Was he even close in his handling of emergency procedures - What did the pilot do immeadiately following the accident? Did he attempt to render first aid? These are all within the realm of standard NTSB investigations. Once those are answered I'll make up my mind if fuck need be upon him. Good post. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 10:49:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Just to throw out some more useless speculation to go with the rest of this thread, it is possible that he saw the people, but thought he had them cleared. When landing on a beach, wet sand vs dry sand can be the difference between life and death, as most every pilot knows. They also know how hard it is to judge how far away their wing tip is. Based on the damage, and where the plane is resting, I might speculate that the unfortunate soles were right at the waterline. The pilot, after seeing them while on final, beyond the point of no return, tried to stay on the wet sand so that he and his passenger could survive. Maybe he misjudged the clearance, or maybe the unfortunates even stepped into him. [/uselessspeculation]
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Posted: 7/29/2014 11:01:48 AM EDT
[#36]
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Just to throw out some more useless speculation to go with the rest of this thread, it is possible that he saw the people, but thought he had them cleared. When landing on a beach, wet sand vs dry sand can be the difference between life and death, as most every pilot knows. They also know how hard it is to judge how far away their wing tip is. Based on the damage, and where the plane is resting, I might speculate that the unfortunate soles were right at the waterline. The pilot, after seeing them while on final, beyond the point of no return, tried to stay on the wet sand so that he and his passenger could survive. Maybe he misjudged the clearance, or maybe the unfortunates even stepped into him. [/uselessspeculation] I've wondered about this exact scenario myself. Coulda just misjudged the spacing. I'll bet he was screaming out loud or at least in his head for those poor souls to duck. That "thunk, thunk" would be the most sickening sound and feeling. I think I'd rather be dead than live with that memory. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 11:04:14 AM EDT
[#37]
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Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 11:30:08 AM EDT
[#38]
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Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 11:40:25 AM EDT
[#39]
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Out of 7 pages, how many people have said he was acting in a malicious manner? The hyper-defensiveness just because you share a qualification with the guy is weird. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You seem to be inferring that you are a pilot, so you understand what went wrong, how it went wrong and how the PiC was not acting in a malicious manner. Out of 7 pages, how many people have said he was acting in a malicious manner? The hyper-defensiveness just because you share a qualification with the guy is weird. Tribalism. It's everywhere. Military, police, Union workers, and a newly discovered tribe, civilian pilots. RIP to the little girl.
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Posted: 7/29/2014 11:54:04 AM EDT
[#40]
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I think he demonstrated that by not landing on the road. He landed on a beach that is not particularly used by beachgoers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yeah a lot of posters are acting like anti-gunners in here. The attitude is almost like they hate the guy because he has enough money to fly. I'm adding a lot to my ignore list. Might as well add me too
Flying for 15+ years now and actively instruct in addition to my day job....and even I think this guy made a lapse in judgement by landing on the beach if there were other options available to him. Ditching in the ocean 50 yards offshore doesn't add a terrible amount of risk to those on board yet reduces the risk to bystanders and innocent people significantly. Ditching in water with fixed gear single engine aircraft are quite survivable, even more so in low-wing aircraft. Then at least he'd be able to make the reasonable excuse that he couldn't see them because they were underwater. Also, appearances are everything. If you put up the appearance that you were willing to risk the more difficult and aircraft damaging landing to save lives on the beach and in so doing you took the life of a guy snorkeling then you will find it much easier to get a pass in the court of public opinion. At this point, it's only natural (even if flawed) for the general public to assume he went for the beach to attempt to save his own skin and aircraft at the hazard of those preoccupying the beach. Do you have reason to believe there was somebody in the water adjacent to where he landed on the beach? I can't help but doubt there was. There's a saying in this biz with regards to priorities. The list of priorities in this order are "skin, tin, and ticket." Saving "skin" doesn't apply to only the pilot. We have a moral and ethical obligation to protect the skin of everyone around us (and I would say more than our own). After you've saved your skin try to save the aircraft. Worry about your ticket last. I'm sure that'll be the story his lawyer uses. Perhaps he thought he couldn't make it to the road or that, even if he could, a collision with the cars would put his life at risk. Oh, but there's the beach, and there's only two people on it. We'll walk away from this one yet! So you have to see why some people are naturally pessimistic about his actions when it's obvious that if you can line up on the beach you could also line up on the water. At first appearances, one option involves destruction of tin but saves skin. The other option destroys skin to save tin. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 11:54:15 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 7/29/2014 12:00:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 12:02:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Its possible he popped the window open and the sound could have been heard externally. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 12:04:34 PM EDT
[#44]
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Its possible he popped the window open and the sound could have been heard externally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. I can't tell if you're being serious. You're just fuckin with me, right? |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 12:08:01 PM EDT
[#45]
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I'm sure that'll be the story his lawyer uses. Perhaps he thought he couldn't make it to the road or that, even if he could, a collision with the cars would put his life at risk. Oh, but there's the beach, and there's only two people on it. We'll walk away from this one yet! So you have to see why some people are naturally pessimistic about his actions when it's obvious that if you can line up on the beach you could also line up on the water. At first appearances, one option involves destruction of tin but saves skin. The other option destroys skin to save tin. Yeah, I don't think he wants to pitch to the jury that he avoided the road and hard, 3,000lb steel vehicles in favor of soft people in bathing suits. The red text plus the minimal damage to the plane plus the conversation with the tower is what screws him. He made a controlled landing exactly where he was aiming, but there were people there. I still don't think it was malicious (seems like that has to be repeated every 2 or 3 posts lest people get emotional), but it was a cock up and he's going to get absolutely hammered in court. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 12:56:55 PM EDT
[#46]
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Yes, the girl has died. If you look at the satellite image you will see plenty of space just to the east. I don't get why those that are confused just Google the beach and look at the satelite images. Also, for those that don't have a clue about this area, why speculate? Why are you so apt to condemn or discredit actual residents of the area? Sounds like you just want to be contrary and stick up for a guy that seriously screwed up. By the way, the pilot is from the area. He knows this airport and the surroundings very well. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. Coordinates, please. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 1:01:02 PM EDT
[#47]
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So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Yes, the girl has died. If you look at the satellite image you will see plenty of space just to the east. I don't get why those that are confused just Google the beach and look at the satelite images. Also, for those that don't have a clue about this area, why speculate? Why are you so apt to condemn or discredit actual residents of the area? Sounds like you just want to be contrary and stick up for a guy that seriously screwed up. By the way, the pilot is from the area. He knows this airport and the surroundings very well. By the way, the local Tampa radio station 102.5 is discussing it right now (12edt). The host is making good sure everyone knows about this guy and what he did to the family. So because you live in the area and know it, that serves as the right to judge someone for doing something you have no knowledge about. You have no idea what the pilot did or didn't do, you have no idea of how much time he had to prepare to bring his plane down, you have no idea of what either person in the plane was able to observe on the ground before landing, you have no idea if the plane was gliding peacefully on its own or if the pilot was struggling to control it, and I am damn sure if the pilot or passenger saw those two before landing, it was too late at that point, so your expert knowledge of the area doesn't amount to a pile of crap. Whoa look: I never said anything about frying the guy. All I said that he is toast in the civil trial. I also have stated that I have been in an emergency landing with no power to the aircraft so I have first hand experience regarding a situation similar to this. Read my other posts before spouting off. One thing we all know that the pilot did was make decisions that lead to him killing two people: a Sgt and his daughter. Click. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 1:02:39 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can't tell if you're being serious. You're just fuckin with me, right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. I can't tell if you're being serious. You're just fuckin with me, right? In addition, perhaps the right seater popped open the window and yelled "WARNING WARNING" out of it. Since we are all speculating anyways, might as well speculate as to that as well. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 1:15:08 PM EDT
[#49]
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Its possible he popped the window open and the sound could have been heard externally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Would a plane really be that silent coming down? Landing on sand I figure he was flaring pretty hard. I got $20 that says the stall horn was going off. It's pretty damn loud. Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. Before GD damns the pilot to hell for not opening his window, a stall horn is like a kazoo. The passenger shitting his pants made more noise. |
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Posted: 7/29/2014 1:20:32 PM EDT
[#50]
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Actually, no. If the engine was dead and they were dropping with no way to sound any sort of alarm, there is a chance he popped the window open. It is not a stretch to think that. Many pilots will have the window open during taxi, or take off to let air in. If the pilot made a habit of that, it is possible either he did it or instructed the right seater to open the window. Since we are all speculating anyways, might as well speculate as to that as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Stall horn is only loud in the cockpit. It doesn't project sound outside. Gliding airplanes are completely quiet. I can't tell if you're being serious. You're just fuckin with me, right? Since we are all speculating anyways, might as well speculate as to that as well. Fair enough. The window may have been open. There's no way in hell somebody could hear, through a 8"x6" pilot window, an electronic stall warning horn, let alone hear it and recognize it as a threat and have time to react to it as it comes sailing up behind you at 60mph. Plus, if the approach was flown correctly, it wouldn't have sounded until just before touch down. Or are we now theorizing that the pilot was in a stall throughout the entire approach? He'd have had far better results if he had the window open and was screaming at the top of his lungs. This fuckin thread...
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