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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:26:11 AM EDT
[#1]
Fuck sake this should be called SG (Second Guess) forum instead of GD. Apparently all the worlds answers emanate from the damp walls of a mother's basement.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:28:45 AM EDT
[#2]
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Well that certainly is an....interesting....opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Anyone flying a plane automatically forfeits their survival/well being over a person on the ground. People on the ground shouldn't give up their lives so some idiot can get his recreational high while putting other people in danger. Well that certainly is an....interesting....opinion. Hmm would he apply that same test to his daily driving? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:31:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Really sad, read about this in the morning Tampa newspaper.
As silly as it sounds maybe some of these small planes should have some kind of warning device (horn) The man on the beach probably never new what hit him. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:42:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Beaches generally have this shit called "water." In fact, they have tons of water. We could even go as far to say that beaches are right next to "oceans" of water. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Want to know how I know you're not a pilot or qualified to discuss aircraft emergency procedures? Depending on his altitude, that pilot had very little time to select a landing site. But I suppose because your on genius level at the basement ground school, you have already plugged in all the variables to determine that he hit them on purpose. Tell me, Mr. Smart guy, did he avoid a building with families in it? Did he miss a parking lot because he saw a lady and her toddler walking across it? Could he have made it to ditch in the water? I'm going with you don't know. In fact, you don't know much of anything in regard to the accident unless you were there. I don't know a pilot that given the chance, would willfully take the life of someone on the ground in a situation like this. Too bad you weren't in there with him to help him see the right thing to do. I'm sure your intellect alone would have saved the day with only the most excellent decisions that you are obviously capable of handing out. Wrap your head with that. Beaches generally have this shit called "water." In fact, they have tons of water. We could even go as far to say that beaches are right next to "oceans" of water. Nice try, brains.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:46:16 AM EDT
[#5]
A lot of assuming going on in this thread.
An undeveloped beach usually doesn't have people walking along it in such numbers that I would be too concerned landing a plane on it. Many single engine prop planes have pretty shitty forward visibility. He may have been directed by ATC that that was a possible location for an emergency landing. He may not have been able to clear the landing zone by making a pass first. It's a shitty situation but I'll wait for the report before I crucify anyone... Unless you're in a float plane there is no such thing as a 'safe water landing.' Shit, even in a float plane they can be pretty dicey depending on location/conditions. With a fixed gear you're damn near committing suicide. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 1:50:04 AM EDT
[#6]
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Fuck sake this should be called SG (Second Guess) forum instead of GD. Apparently all the worlds answers emanate from the damp walls of a mother's basement. We're no different than the "why couldn't he shoot the gun out of his hands" crowd. We just feel all smug and self righteous about knowing why that one thing sounds asinine. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 3:02:07 AM EDT
[#7]
I take back everything everything I've posted in the thread.
The more I think about it, the more I'm amazed at this pilots skills. His ability to bring the plane down in such a narrow piece of beach and land it safely is to be commended by all.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 3:09:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whistle tips... TRG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Whistle tips... TRG That plane was going supersonic at the time. He needed super-whistle tips. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 3:25:05 AM EDT
[#9]
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Back in 92 Rosemary Emory was killed driving around Pax River NAS when an F18 landed on her truck after the pilots ejected. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-4th-circuit/1392324.html And a few years later two pilots rode their plane into Pax's skeet field rather than eject and risk it impacting somewhere populated. Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 5:19:16 AM EDT
[#10]
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Dick should have went for the water 
I know you graduated from arfcom basement dewllers flight 101 training school using real flight simulator... but I'm curious what real life credentials or experiences do you have to make such an assessment? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 5:23:19 AM EDT
[#11]
For those that don't know the beach, or the water situation there, here is some info:
It is a narrow beach. There is grassland to the immediate East of the beach. The water is very shallow; if you were to swim out about 50-75' the water is still less than 6' deep. The very popular restaurant Sharkeys is nearby. This is not an low population area. If the pilot could land on the narrow stretch of beach, he could have landed it in the grassland to the east (no less than 20' to the right) or landed in the water in less than 5' of water. Snorkeling and swimming is pretty much a non factor there--people don't do it there. He had three options to chose from--two of which were going good to be more dangerous to him and his aircraft (water or grassland); one choice would have been safer to him and the aircraft but not for innocent bystanders (beach). I feel that the pilot decided to save himself and the aircraft instead of choose the safety of people on the beach. That will prove to be an expensive decision in civil court and will change his life forever. Prayers for all involved. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 5:26:45 AM EDT
[#12]
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I feel that the pilot decided to save himself and the aircraft instead of choose the safety of people on the beach. And it's how you feel about things that's most important. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 5:52:44 AM EDT
[#13]
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And it's how you feel about things that's most important. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I feel that the pilot decided to save himself and the aircraft instead of choose the safety of people on the beach. And it's how you feel about things that's most important. Sure, but there are consequences for the decisions you make. The pilot will now have to answer for that decision. Believe me, I would not have wanted to be in his shoes at all. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:17:04 AM EDT
[#14]
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For those that don't know the beach, or the water situation there, here is some info: It is a narrow beach. There is grassland to the immediate East of the beach. The water is very shallow; if you were to swim out about 50-75' the water is still less than 6' deep. The very popular restaurant Sharkeys is nearby. This is not an low population area. If the pilot could land on the narrow stretch of beach, he could have landed it in the grassland to the east (no less than 20' to the right) or landed in the water in less than 5' of water. Snorkeling and swimming is pretty much a non factor there--people don't do it there. He had three options to chose from--two of which were going good to be more dangerous to him and his aircraft (water or grassland); one choice would have been safer to him and the aircraft but not for innocent bystanders (beach). I feel that the pilot decided to save himself and the aircraft instead of choose the safety of people on the beach. That will prove to be an expensive decision in civil court and will change his life forever. Prayers for all involved. You cannot reliably tell the depth of water from the air, and there is also no way to belly land the plane that means that as soon as the fixed front landing gear hits the water, the plane is going to flip, and now who knows what will happen to the plane. The two people inside would likely be killed, and bystanders could be by flying debris as well. I don't know how fast the plane was moving still when it landed. You're also assuming that the grass area was reachable given the speed and conditions when the plane experienced failure, and if the ATC even knew or reported it to be an option if they could have made it. You're also assuming that it is as flat as the beach. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:24:49 AM EDT
[#15]
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I take back everything everything I've posted in the thread. The more I think about it, the more I'm amazed at this pilots skills. His ability to bring the plane down in such a narrow piece of beach and land it safely is to be commended by all. Um, maybe you didn't notice, but he did not land it safely. He killed one person and sent another to the hospital. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:32:39 AM EDT
[#16]
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So let me get this straight. Pilot instructed to try to land on beach. Crashes. Debris hits bystanders, and you somehow extrapolate that into intentionally aiming near people to save his own skin? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water This is my thought too. Killing people to save your own life is fucked up when the option exists to keep innocents safe. So let me get this straight. Pilot instructed to try to land on beach. Crashes. Debris hits bystanders, and you somehow extrapolate that into intentionally aiming near people to save his own skin? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Just who exactly instructed him to land on the beach? According to the Sheriff's Office, the pilot reported at 2:45 p.m. that he was having trouble with his plane. He reported that he was unable to make it back to the airport and planned to land on the beach |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:33:04 AM EDT
[#17]
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Dick should have went for the water I was thinking the same thing but you need to put yourself in his situation. I highly doubt he even saw them until it was too late. Your first instinct isn't to put it in the water. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:34:06 AM EDT
[#18]
lots of tragedy. Pilot should have ditched in the drink instead.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:36:50 AM EDT
[#19]
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No, he shouldn't have. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water Seriously this. No, he shouldn't have. crash in the water not the beach |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:39:29 AM EDT
[#20]
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Just who exactly instructed him to land on the beach? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just who exactly instructed him to land on the beach? According to the Sheriff's Office, the pilot reported at 2:45 p.m. that he was having trouble with his plane. He reported that he was unable to make it back to the airport and planned to land on the beach I said it before but I'll reiterate it, ATC will not direct you to perform an off field emergency landing. They will give you information but can't tell you where to perform an emergency landing. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:40:37 AM EDT
[#21]
Nobody monday morning quarterbacks like ARFCOM. If he'd landed in the water and killed a kid in their water wings, this same thread would be going on about how he was a dick and should have landed on the beach.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:40:49 AM EDT
[#22]
Pilot's union is all over this thread.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:40:52 AM EDT
[#23]
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crash in the water not the beach Are you saying that because you have done a weighted analsys of alternatives that leads you to conclude that the water is the safest option or just because of the outcome? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:41:57 AM EDT
[#24]
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Are you saying that because you have done a weighted analsys of alternatives that leads you to conclude that the water is the safest option or just because of the outcome? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
crash in the water not the beach Are you saying that because you have done a weighted analsys of alternatives that leads you to conclude that the water is the safest option or just because of the outcome? The benefit of hindsight allows GD to always know all. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:43:09 AM EDT
[#25]
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Dick should have went for the water My thoughts. If the beach was deserted, that's one thing. Otherwise the crash is on you as the pilot/driver/skipper. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:44:13 AM EDT
[#26]
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It is July. There could be swimmers or snorkelers. What would be said if he killed someone in the water? I have come to believe that if it is your time, you will be taken. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water This is my thought too. Killing people to save your own life is fucked up when the option exists to keep innocents safe. It is July. There could be swimmers or snorkelers. What would be said if he killed someone in the water? I have come to believe that if it is your time, you will be taken. Hypothetical headline: Man Killed by Plane While Swimming at Beach GD's reaction: WTF!? Why was the pilot trying to land a fixed gear aircraft in water when there was a perfectly good strip of undeveloped beach available!? Voluntary manslaughter! Hang him! Anyone who flies automatically forfeits their survival/well being over a person on the ground! 
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:45:23 AM EDT
[#27]
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So let me get this straight. Pilot instructed to try to land on beach. Crashes. Debris hits bystanders, and you somehow extrapolate that into intentionally aiming near people to save his own skin? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Dick should have went for the water This is my thought too. Killing people to save your own life is fucked up when the option exists to keep innocents safe. So let me get this straight. Pilot instructed to try to land on beach. Crashes. Debris hits bystanders, and you somehow extrapolate that into intentionally aiming near people to save his own skin? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The pilot was free to reject the advice. There were people on the beach. Plenty of room in the ocean. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:48:52 AM EDT
[#28]
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The pilot is responsible for that operation of the flight and if he's found negligent will be held responsible. The idea that you guys just want pilots to fly straight into terra firma at the first sign of trouble rather than taking reasonable actions to minimize injuries and damage overall is incredible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Instructed?
"But there's people on the beach!" "fuck em" Nice way to shirk responsibility. I didn't say he intentionally aimed for people, but he intentionally landed on a beach with people on it. The pilot is responsible for that operation of the flight and if he's found negligent will be held responsible. The idea that you guys just want pilots to fly straight into terra firma at the first sign of trouble rather than taking reasonable actions to minimize injuries and damage overall is incredible. No. The point is we expect them to minimize injuries/death to OTHERS first. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:51:52 AM EDT
[#29]
Pilot should have posted here for advice on where to ditch the plane.
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:51:58 AM EDT
[#30]
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Do you know what happens when a fixed gear aircraft touches down on water? They're not just going to settle in. Most likely the aircraft flips, and the people on board get knocked unconscious and/or drown. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water Seriously this. No, he shouldn't have. Do you know what happens when a fixed gear aircraft touches down on water? They're not just going to settle in. Most likely the aircraft flips, and the people on board get knocked unconscious and/or drown. But they took the risk of flying and their actions will affect others. Is it reasonable to assume the plane may have trouble? Is it reasonable to assume you could be run over by an airplane at the beach? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:52:07 AM EDT
[#31]
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They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Landing on a beach? I bet the horn was going off pretty loudly. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:52:29 AM EDT
[#32]
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They need to put horns on those fucking things.. Landing on a beach? I bet the horn was going off pretty loudly. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:53:58 AM EDT
[#33]
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No. The point is we expect them to minimize injuries/death to OTHERS first. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Instructed?
"But there's people on the beach!" "fuck em" Nice way to shirk responsibility. I didn't say he intentionally aimed for people, but he intentionally landed on a beach with people on it. The pilot is responsible for that operation of the flight and if he's found negligent will be held responsible. The idea that you guys just want pilots to fly straight into terra firma at the first sign of trouble rather than taking reasonable actions to minimize injuries and damage overall is incredible. No. The point is we expect them to minimize injuries/death to OTHERS first. Your expectation is unreasonable. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:55:17 AM EDT
[#34]
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But they took the risk of flying and their actions will affect others. Is it reasonable to assume the plane may have trouble? Is it reasonable to assume you could be run over by an airplane at the beach? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Seriously this. No, he shouldn't have. Do you know what happens when a fixed gear aircraft touches down on water? They're not just going to settle in. Most likely the aircraft flips, and the people on board get knocked unconscious and/or drown. But they took the risk of flying and their actions will affect others. Is it reasonable to assume the plane may have trouble? Is it reasonable to assume you could be run over by an airplane at the beach? Pilots are taught to shoot for the beach. Water landings are a last resort. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 7:59:18 AM EDT
[#35]
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Bullshit ETA: I love all the posters with zero aviation knowledge thinking they have a clue what was involved in the accident and what the pilot could or could not do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water Bullshit ETA: I love all the posters with zero aviation knowledge thinking they have a clue what was involved in the accident and what the pilot could or could not do. What does aviation knowledge have to do with moral behavior? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:02:25 AM EDT
[#36]
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Pilots are taught to shoot for the beach. Water landings are a last resort. I wasn't taught to shoot for the beach. Yes, it's a good option of there's no people there, however I did most of my training in the DAB area - the beaches are always full of people & cars. I was mentally prepared to put the aircraft in the inter-coastal or 50-100 yards offshore if the need arose. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:04:23 AM EDT
[#37]
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What does aviation knowledge have to do with moral behavior? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water Bullshit ETA: I love all the posters with zero aviation knowledge thinking they have a clue what was involved in the accident and what the pilot could or could not do. What does aviation knowledge have to do with moral behavior? So by your belief the Gilmi Glider should have just nosed over into the forrest rather than risk anybody at the racetrack? |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:05:49 AM EDT
[#38]
sad
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:08:07 AM EDT
[#39]
The area
I would guess this happened South of the airport. I don't see a lot of alternates. So, I have a Private Pilots License Single engine land with Instrument rating. Most of my training was done in this same type of aircraft, the PA-28 One of the drills we learned was engine failure. Instructor brings throttle to neutral, and you have to deal with it. There are procedures for engine failure to troubleshoot. But the most important thing is to pick out a landing spot right fucking now, that you know you can make. No idea how much altitude he had, but it is never enough when that engine stops. Tragic situation, and easy to armchair aviate. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:09:18 AM EDT
[#40]
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But they took the risk of flying and their actions will affect others. Is it reasonable to assume the plane may have trouble? Is it reasonable to assume you could be run over by an airplane at the beach? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Seriously this. No, he shouldn't have. Do you know what happens when a fixed gear aircraft touches down on water? They're not just going to settle in. Most likely the aircraft flips, and the people on board get knocked unconscious and/or drown. But they took the risk of flying and their actions will affect others. Is it reasonable to assume the plane may have trouble? Is it reasonable to assume you could be run over by an airplane at the beach? The pilot has as much responsibility to save his passengers as he does to anyone else. Should a commercial passenger airline pilot dive straight into the water instead of trying to land and risk hitting a boat? 
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:12:38 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The area I would guess this happened South of the airport. I don't see a lot of alternates. So, I have a Private Pilots License Single engine land with Instrument rating. Most of my training was done in this same type of aircraft, the PA-28 One of the drills we learned was engine failure. Instructor brings throttle to neutral, and you have to deal with it. There are procedures for engine failure to troubleshoot. But the most important thing is to pick out a landing spot right fucking now, that you know you can make. No idea how much altitude he had, but it is never enough when that engine stops. Tragic situation, and easy to armchair aviate. Yep, you have little choice in where to land when you loose your engine. Putting too much effort into trying to control it will simply bleed off all your speed and then you will stall and have no control. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:12:59 AM EDT
[#42]
When a pilot purposely avoids people when he has mech. issues, GD praises his actions.
When a pilot purposely lands on a populated beach when he has mech. issues, GD aviation experts sympathize with him. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:16:06 AM EDT
[#43]
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So by your belief the Gilmi Glider should have just nosed over into the forrest rather than risk anybody at the racetrack? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Dick should have went for the water Bullshit ETA: I love all the posters with zero aviation knowledge thinking they have a clue what was involved in the accident and what the pilot could or could not do. What does aviation knowledge have to do with moral behavior? So by your belief the Gilmi Glider should have just nosed over into the forrest rather than risk anybody at the racetrack? The pilots had no idea it had been converted into a racetrack. The captain believed it was the abandoned air base he originally flew at. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:22:16 AM EDT
[#44]
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The pilots had no idea it had been converted into a racetrack. The captain believed it was the abandoned air base he originally flew at. But still per Windknot's philosophy once they saw a couple cars on the track they should have just pushed it down into the closest field. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:37:54 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This situation sucks....hard. Guy I went to High School with was driving at 50 or so on a 55 mph County Highway. He saw a girl in the road.and hit the ditch. Flipped his car on a culvert pipe and landed in the girls yard. He was unhurt but his car was totaled. He was so happy he hadn't hit the child he told the mother that he didn't care her daughter was OK and that was what was important. Once the mother got her wits about her she realized that her son was missing. His car was on top of the boy. It, like the plane crash, was an accident. Stuff happens fast in a car wreck and, no doubt, a plane crash. My classmate did his best in the accident and I'm sure the pilot did too. He likely was out of airspeed to trade for altitude. There was nothing left to do but hit the ground.  |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:40:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Always expect the unexpected and be aware of your surroundings. If I saw a plane heading my direction I would, as fast as I can, run perpendicular to its trajectory.
ETA: Also airplanes should have loud-ass horns so you can honk at people if needed. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 8:42:19 AM EDT
[#47]
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Yep, you have little choice in where to land when you loose your engine. Putting too much effort into trying to control it will simply bleed off all your speed and then you will stall and have no control. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The area I would guess this happened South of the airport. I don't see a lot of alternates. So, I have a Private Pilots License Single engine land with Instrument rating. Most of my training was done in this same type of aircraft, the PA-28 One of the drills we learned was engine failure. Instructor brings throttle to neutral, and you have to deal with it. There are procedures for engine failure to troubleshoot. But the most important thing is to pick out a landing spot right fucking now, that you know you can make. No idea how much altitude he had, but it is never enough when that engine stops. Tragic situation, and easy to armchair aviate. Yep, you have little choice in where to land when you loose your engine. Putting too much effort into trying to control it will simply bleed off all your speed and then you will stall and have no control. It looked like he had enough control to land exactly where he told the tower he was going to land. That picture looks like he was flying parallel to the water line, which almost certainly means he hit where he was aiming. It wouldn't have taken much of a correction to be further out in the water. Nobody here was there and knows all the facts, but from what I see he looks like a douche who chose to put others in harm's way for his actions. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:15:11 AM EDT
[#48]
Where was he and at what altitude when the power loss occurred? I suspect that if he had time to line up on the shore then he probably could have ditched in the water to avoid people.
Did he run out of fuel? I am skeptical that he could not see people once relatively low. To maintain approach airspeed without the engine running the nose needs to be down a bit more than with the engine running. In some planes, adding flaps helps to get the nose down to improve visibility. |
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Posted: 7/28/2014 9:48:17 AM EDT
[#49]
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Well that certainly is an....interesting....opinion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Anyone flying a plane automatically forfeits their survival/well being over a person on the ground. People on the ground shouldn't give up their lives so some idiot can get his recreational high while putting other people in danger. Well that certainly is an....interesting....opinion. I laughed, did you? 
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Posted: 7/28/2014 10:05:34 AM EDT
[#50]
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So it is morally acceptable to risk the death of uninvolved persons rather than your own? Interesting question. Let's say you're driving down the road which has a shoulder large enough for a bicycle to be beside you. A dump truck has swerved into your lane and is heading right for you. Do you take the head on or do you run the cyclist off the road? Preserve your life at the cost of the innocent? |
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