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Link Posted: 7/23/2014 7:16:20 PM EDT
[#1]
If I remember correctly,  china is bleeding manufacturing jobs now. A lot of it is moving to Vietnam, burma, Bangladesh, Cambodia, etc. This is further hurting them.

Link Posted: 7/23/2014 7:19:23 PM EDT
[#2]
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China will collapse too.  
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Yes, but their leadership is a lot more realistic about what they're doing, how they got there, and how they aim to stay on top of the pile.

When the dust settles, what matters will be who has their hands on the tangible things needed to keep the modern world running.    We're extremely fortunate in terms of some resources, but our leadership simply doesn't get it.   Our political left is prone to magical thinking, and has no respect for what it takes to keep the lights on.   They never learned any hard lessons like the Chinese did with their Great Leap Into Fucktardery.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 7:19:56 PM EDT
[#3]
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Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?
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I'm not a financial expect, but it is my understanding debt equals money and is created out of whole cloth, in other words, assuming that banking in China works as it does in the west, the debt was created out of nothing by the banks, ledger entries in a computer, nothing more.  The days when money was borrowed from other people's savings are long gone.  So I guess you could say that they lent themselves the money and I am not sure that under a communist system the same rules apply.  If the government controls the banks I suppose they could simply wipe the slate clean and start over.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 7:58:19 PM EDT
[#4]
fake banking ........   backed by nothing
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wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?
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Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:00:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:02:12 PM EDT
[#6]
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And now they have an outbreak of beubonic plague

Lots of good stuff going on around the globe huh?
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Same old shit, just more comprehensive reporting.  
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:11:57 PM EDT
[#7]
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This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.  
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Red October?
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:25:18 PM EDT
[#8]
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Three Gorges Project?  Times a million.  
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What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.
Three Gorges Project?  Times a million.  



They build entire cities that go unlived in.

Then they build steel foundries to do ginormous castings for bragging rights... regardless of whether they can actually get the kinds of orders that would make such an expensive facility worthwhile.

Command economy at it's finest.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:52:30 PM EDT
[#9]
All the "our kids need to learn Mandarin" ballwasher are surprisingly absent from this thread.







Also, been calling it for years now. And I ain't no Swedish math wizard like DK.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:53:29 PM EDT
[#10]
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wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?
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They debase and fuck with their currency on a massive level. Makes Bernanke look like amateur hour.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 8:56:57 PM EDT
[#11]
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Would they even dare to call in our debts that we owe them?
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No. Their econony is dependent on us buying their shit. We've got them by the balls: where else in the world will they find 400 million consumers that can buy their trinkets?
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 9:11:07 PM EDT
[#12]
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Three Gorges Project?  Times a million.  
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What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.
Three Gorges Project?  Times a million.  


Isn't the dam starting to show signs of failure?
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 9:21:46 PM EDT
[#13]
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Ghost cities?  Shit tons of investment in Africa?
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Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.


Ghost cities?  Shit tons of investment in Africa?


Hey, their investments in Africa are pretty damn solid, and it looks that way with the dust still in the air. Once it settles I'm sure we'll be kicking ourselves for not doing the same thing.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 9:22:44 PM EDT
[#14]
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Would they even dare to call in our debts that we owe them?
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Link Posted: 7/23/2014 9:25:19 PM EDT
[#15]
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But but but everyone tells me China is way richer than us and they have all of our debt and could ruin us if they called in that debt!!!!
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"Hey Chinaman, how about fuck yu. Yes I mean Yu, and your mother, and you brother WU and everyone else tu." Official US response to request for immediate repayment
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 9:27:23 PM EDT
[#16]
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ETA:



That is what I was wondering about. Infrastructure like highways, dams and heavy rail usually pays nice dividends. Pork filled boondoggle projects like the ever popular ghost cities, not so much.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.





ETA:

Quoted:
Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.


Check out the modern railroad they built to the far West provinces; that one didn't come cheap.  Nor that humungous dam.



That is what I was wondering about. Infrastructure like highways, dams and heavy rail usually pays nice dividends. Pork filled boondoggle projects like the ever popular ghost cities, not so much.


Do you have any idea how much graft, theft, and Bullshit most of those programs are. I wouldn't ride their high speed railroad if you flew me to China and bought me a first class ticket.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 9:35:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:


The China-US sorpasso is looming. I do not mean the much-exaggerated moment when China’s GDP will overtake America's GDP – which may not happen in the lifetime of anybody reading this blog post – as China slows to more pedestrian growth rates (an objective of premier Li Keqiang.)
The sorpasso may instead be the ominous moment when China’s debt ratios overtake the arch-debtor itself.

I had presumed that this inflection point was still a very long way off, but a new report from Stephen Green at Standard Chartered argues that China’s aggregate debt level has reached 251 per cent of GDP, as of June.
This is up 20 percentage points of GDP since late 2013. The total is much higher than normal estimates, though it tallies with what I have heard privately from officials at the IMF and the BIS.

Mr Green – a highly-respected China veteran – includes total social financing (TSF), offshore cross-border bank borrowing (a story that we are going to hear a lot about), bond issuance, shadow banking of various kinds, and government debt.

The ratio has risen by 100 percentage points of GDP over the last five years. As Fitch has argued out in the past, this is more than double the rise seen in Japan over the five years before the Nikkei bubble burst in 1990, or in the US before subprime blew up in 2007, or in Korea before the Asian financial crisis.

It is the speed of the rise that worries credit rating agencies and regulators – including many at the Chinese central bank – as much as the volume itself. Though China is scary on both fronts. It has pushed debt to $26 trillion, more than the entire commercial banking systems of the US and Japan combined. The scale obviously has global ramifications.
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http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027691/chinas-terrifying-debt-ratios-poised-to-breeze-past-us-levels/
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Yeah it means more of the little fucks are gonna end up here.

Link Posted: 7/23/2014 10:42:56 PM EDT
[#18]
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China will collapse too.  Their real estate market is more over leveraged than our own.  When it goes, there'll be a lot of new poor people there.
Most of China is poor already. They have a real 99% thing going on over there.

The question in my mind is will the Commies be able to prevent a revolution when that happens?  
No. Hundreds of millions of Chinese are starving and live in poverty. They get shot at when they stand up to the gov. They arent just going to be ok with a simple transition.  

If they do, China stands to emerge as the world powerhouse this century.
lol, nope. When people at the iPhone factory quit jumping out the window,  and others quit risking a 30-day voyage in a conex box maybe they'll have a chance.

One thing China has that we don't have here:  savings and gold.
If they were that well off, they wouldn't have fucked themselves like they have.

Regarding savings, they can become a consumer economy much we were in the '50s.
Where will they find 400 million consumers that can buy at the same rate we do?

On the latter, they're very secretive as to the quantity they hold in their vaults.
I'd bet a lot of their gold is spiked. They could also be bullshitting us: they do about most things.
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China is so fucked, their meltdown will be awesome. Quit fearing the paper dragon: it can't burn you.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 10:56:45 PM EDT
[#19]
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Fiat currency bro, we are all borrowing from our grand children.
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Quoted:
wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?


Fiat currency bro, we are all borrowing from our grand children.


Borrowing. Right.


Link Posted: 7/23/2014 11:25:51 PM EDT
[#20]
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Quoted:
wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?
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Numbers, moving from one computer to another.  


The whole fucking thing is imaginary.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 11:27:55 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
China will collapse too.  Their real estate market is more over leveraged than our own.  When it goes, there'll be a lot of new poor people there.

The question in my mind is will the Commies be able to prevent a revolution when that happens?  If they do, China stands to emerge as the world powerhouse this century.  One thing China has that we don't have here:  savings and gold.  Regarding savings, they can become a consumer economy much we were in the '50s.  On the latter, they're very secretive as to the quantity they hold in their vaults.
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China is pretty broadly fucked in a lot of ways if their little house of cards collapses.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 11:29:17 PM EDT
[#22]
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Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.
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Dude, like 80% of their military is devoted to quashing internal revolt. It's better than welfare.
Link Posted: 7/23/2014 11:32:13 PM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:


Check out the modern railroad they built to the far West provinces; that one didn't come cheap.  Nor that humungous dam.

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Quoted:
Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.


Check out the modern railroad they built to the far West provinces; that one didn't come cheap.  Nor that humungous dam.


That dam makes me grin a little.

Let's put several million (billion?) of our people at risk of our construction techniques.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 12:39:27 AM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:

That dam makes me grin a little.

Let's put several million (billion?) of our people at risk of our construction techniques.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.


Check out the modern railroad they built to the far West provinces; that one didn't come cheap.  Nor that humungous dam.


That dam makes me grin a little.

Let's put several million (billion?) of our people at risk of our construction techniques.


/\ Thats one way to get rid of the people you want to "disappear" - lets move em downstream of the damn
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 12:51:16 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:


Check out the modern railroad they built to the far West provinces; that one didn't come cheap.  Nor that humungous dam.

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Quoted:
Quoted:
What are they wasting all that money on? I didn't think they had a welfare state like us.


Check out the modern railroad they built to the far West provinces; that one didn't come cheap.  Nor that humungous dam.



They needed to build the damn because a flood in the 98 killed over 1500 people and billions of dollars in damage as well as displacing like 2.3 million.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 1:07:54 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


its a pyramid scheme of perpetual motion.
 

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Quoted:
wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?


its a pyramid scheme of perpetual motion.
 




Link Posted: 7/24/2014 1:09:41 PM EDT
[#27]
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wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?
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We did.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 1:39:38 PM EDT
[#28]
My wife has a friend who spent a lot of time living in China.  She got a masters degree in the Mandarin language.

Anyway, she told us almost 15 years ago that people in China were being encouraged by the government to invest their life savings (whatever they had) into the Chinese markets.  They've been inflating themselves for years.  Then there are the massive ghost cities, etc.  Their economy has been a big bubble for some time.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 3:49:38 PM EDT
[#29]
China has capital controls - it's extremely difficult to find somewhere to put your money if you're remotely wealthy.

Real estate is big there for that reason. If you've got $1b USD, would you rather have it invested in real estate that might be overvalued by 200%, or would you keep it in instruments denominated in RMB?
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 4:01:39 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:


The China-US sorpasso is looming. I do not mean the much-exaggerated moment when China’s GDP will overtake America's GDP – which may not happen in the lifetime of anybody reading this blog post – as China slows to more pedestrian growth rates (an objective of premier Li Keqiang.)
The sorpasso may instead be the ominous moment when China’s debt ratios overtake the arch-debtor itself.

I had presumed that this inflection point was still a very long way off, but a new report from Stephen Green at Standard Chartered argues that China’s aggregate debt level has reached 251 per cent of GDP, as of June.
This is up 20 percentage points of GDP since late 2013. The total is much higher than normal estimates, though it tallies with what I have heard privately from officials at the IMF and the BIS.

Mr Green – a highly-respected China veteran – includes total social financing (TSF), offshore cross-border bank borrowing (a story that we are going to hear a lot about), bond issuance, shadow banking of various kinds, and government debt.

The ratio has risen by 100 percentage points of GDP over the last five years. As Fitch has argued out in the past, this is more than double the rise seen in Japan over the five years before the Nikkei bubble burst in 1990, or in the US before subprime blew up in 2007, or in Korea before the Asian financial crisis.

It is the speed of the rise that worries credit rating agencies and regulators – including many at the Chinese central bank – as much as the volume itself. Though China is scary on both fronts. It has pushed debt to $26 trillion, more than the entire commercial banking systems of the US and Japan combined. The scale obviously has global ramifications.
View Quote


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027691/chinas-terrifying-debt-ratios-poised-to-breeze-past-us-levels/
View Quote

They have the economy to support it.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 6:31:40 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:

They have the economy to support it.
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Quoted:
Quoted:


The China-US sorpasso is looming. I do not mean the much-exaggerated moment when China’s GDP will overtake America's GDP – which may not happen in the lifetime of anybody reading this blog post – as China slows to more pedestrian growth rates (an objective of premier Li Keqiang.)
The sorpasso may instead be the ominous moment when China’s debt ratios overtake the arch-debtor itself.

I had presumed that this inflection point was still a very long way off, but a new report from Stephen Green at Standard Chartered argues that China’s aggregate debt level has reached 251 per cent of GDP, as of June.
This is up 20 percentage points of GDP since late 2013. The total is much higher than normal estimates, though it tallies with what I have heard privately from officials at the IMF and the BIS.

Mr Green – a highly-respected China veteran – includes total social financing (TSF), offshore cross-border bank borrowing (a story that we are going to hear a lot about), bond issuance, shadow banking of various kinds, and government debt.

The ratio has risen by 100 percentage points of GDP over the last five years. As Fitch has argued out in the past, this is more than double the rise seen in Japan over the five years before the Nikkei bubble burst in 1990, or in the US before subprime blew up in 2007, or in Korea before the Asian financial crisis.

It is the speed of the rise that worries credit rating agencies and regulators – including many at the Chinese central bank – as much as the volume itself. Though China is scary on both fronts. It has pushed debt to $26 trillion, more than the entire commercial banking systems of the US and Japan combined. The scale obviously has global ramifications.


http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027691/chinas-terrifying-debt-ratios-poised-to-breeze-past-us-levels/

They have the economy to support it.


WTF brand of CRACK COCAINE are you smoking. Their whole damn economy is smoke and mirrors.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 6:36:30 PM EDT
[#32]

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We did.
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Quoted:

wait.  So, we borrowed money from them.  But they have more debt than us?  Who the hell lent them the money to lend us?




We did.










 
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 6:40:49 PM EDT
[#33]
You know, I heard this a while back and I was really blown away.

Disappointed too.

I may have to rethink all of my China cheer leading.
Link Posted: 7/24/2014 6:43:45 PM EDT
[#34]
But they lectured us?


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