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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:12:02 PM EDT
[#1]
Over ten thousand posts and you don't know how to hot link?
http://m.ocregister.com/articles/stauffer-629625-police-officers.html |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:15:55 PM EDT
[#2]
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article.
Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:23:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Tell that to all the states who keep giving LE pretty much the dominant role in dealing with them when in crisis. Its kinda like the hot potato, nobody wants to end up with it in their hands.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:25:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. I couldn't agree more. I especially dislike when the emergency room or "mental health expert" calls us because they can't control or reason with a subject and then complain that we used force to defuse a situation.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:27:01 PM EDT
[#6]
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Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Maybe true, but when the patient commits crimes then it because a law enforcement issue. If some crazy attacks me or damages my property I don't care why he did it, I would just want the criminal dealt with and prosecuted. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:28:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell that to all the states who keep giving LE pretty much the dominant role in dealing with them when in crisis. Its kinda like the hot potato, nobody wants to end up with it in their hands. This. C.i.t. training has become mandatory on quite a few departments. Even medical staff are telling families of ed p's to ask for c.i.t. trained officers. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:29:10 PM EDT
[#8]
There may be a legal and procedural reason health care workers call the police. Just because someone suffers from a mental illness doesn't mean they are exempt from laws. Also, ask any psychiatrist, psychologist, or psych nurse how many times they've been attacked. Ho-hum...
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:30:48 PM EDT
[#9]
That is unfortunate for both the LE and the schizo. He was obviously going through an episode, and he willfully confined himself into "his own room". They should have just let him chill for 30 min to cool off, then taken him in.
Im sure the cops were fucking pumped before kicking down the door to "defuse" the situation. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:30:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Over ten thousand posts and you don't know how to hot link? http://m.ocregister.com/articles/stauffer-629625-police-officers.html OP getting schooled by O_P 
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:31:55 PM EDT
[#11]
This is what happens when people take LE from solving crimes and catching bad guys to being an around the clock security service and adult daycare.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:33:01 PM EDT
[#12]
Violence is violence and officers are supposed to be trained to diffuse situations with the least amount of force necessary. Having been a paramedic for 8 years and then working in an ER for the last 15 years I can tell you that a police presence is necessary to safely deal with many mental health patients. Mental health patients can be some of the most violent we deal with.
Paramedics and nurses do not have the training or tools to take down a violent mental health patient. This is a big part of my job every day. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:34:08 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell that to all the states who keep giving LE pretty much the dominant role in dealing with them when in crisis. Its kinda like the hot potato, nobody wants to end up with it in their hands.  |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:35:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:35:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Than why did the Medical personal at "Nancy’s Guest Village", a care facility in the 13900 block of Clinton Street, [call police] in response to a report of a schizophrenic patient who was not taking his medication? The OPs statement goes against what the medical personal did to handle the patient. /just saying I am not in the medical or LEO field and will now take a backseat with some popcorn. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:36:42 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? Exactly right. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:38:13 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. When you call 911, everyone is invited to the party. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:39:05 PM EDT
[#18]
I agree.....leave it in the Democratic political arena.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:39:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Mental health should definitely be a law enforcement issue outside of a hospital.
Ask me how I know. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:42:15 PM EDT
[#20]
I would also add that in my experience, the majority of "mental health patients" have drugs or alcohol on board when they interact with the "system". There is often no easy way to differentiate a manic or violent schizophrenic from someone high on meth or bath salts as often both are contributing to their behavior.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:42:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? Yep. I can tell you from sad experience.....The "medical personnel" call the cops. Why? Because cops are used to dealing with violent people that don't want to cooperate. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:43:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Those patients have to be transported to a mental health hospital for inpatient stabilization by police. A paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't decide to go there on their own accord. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:44:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Okay, so, how do they give drugs to the unrestrained violent person? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:45:47 PM EDT
[#24]
If this works out then we can get Domestic Counselors to go to domestic calls. Hey, I see a good pattern going.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:49:59 PM EDT
[#25]
State governments have cut funding to mental health services in order to balance their financial books.
Jails have become the new mental institution. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 3:51:22 PM EDT
[#26]
No one ever wants to deal with them so we get called and take them to the hospital who in turn do absolutely nothing and kick them to the curb after a few hours. The cycle repeats.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:02:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one ever wants to deal with them so we get called and take them to the hospital who in turn do absolutely nothing and kick them to the curb after a few hours. The cycle repeats. What would you have hospital staff do? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:04:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Are mentally disturbed individuals just going to hold their arm out and allow themselves to be injected, or do you think EMTs should go hands on as well? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:15:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those patients have to be transported to a mental health hospital for inpatient stabilization by police. A paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't decide to go there on their own accord. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Those patients have to be transported to a mental health hospital for inpatient stabilization by police. A paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't decide to go there on their own accord. Tranquilizer him and transport him via ambulance. Not the back seat of a cop car. Of course that would require waking up the doctor to order the meds. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:19:01 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I couldn't agree more. I especially dislike when the emergency room or "mental health expert" calls us because they can't control or reason with a subject and then complain that we used force to defuse a situation.
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. I couldn't agree more. I especially dislike when the emergency room or "mental health expert" calls us because they can't control or reason with a subject and then complain that we used force to defuse a situation.
Maybe we should take dbrowne1' s advice and.. Not go? 
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:19:35 PM EDT
[#31]
We have a EDP that used to live in our city. Always had suicidal thoughts, usually combative. Just looking into this man's eyes you can tell something is not right. This same guy has fought with police on several occasions during his suicidal incidents. One of the last times, he was trying to get an officers weapon.
Fast forward a few years, he calls 911 because he is feeling suicidal. Paramedics will not go in until we deem the situation "safe", and having dealt with this man on numerous occasions, paramedics made it a point to wait. We arrive and he is hiding in the bathroom, sitting in the tub naked. As soon as he sees us, he starts ripping into his arm with a razor. He ripped his wrist open all while being hit with a pepper ball gun (6 shots total in the chest, breathing it in like nothing is there) and being tasered 17 times *the top half of him only, because he was inside the tub*. Each time fighting through everything, at times using his fingers to reach inside the wound and pull on whatever he can get. When he lost the razor, he began using his teeth and spitting whatever he had in his mouth over everyone there. Oh yea, if we got close the guy would swing the razor around so he wasn't just suicidal. This was one of our more extreme ones, and had similar runs with others that were met with extreme violence. I can tell you, medical staff want nothing to do with it and LE is stuck dealing with it. He is a poster boy of why EDP's cannot be left alone, you never know what they are capable of doing. Just my experience... Take it for what it's worth. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:20:08 PM EDT
[#32]
It's a public safety issue many times, so why shouldn't we be called?
Quoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Ah, no. Even when we have EMS transport, we are either in the rig with them or following the rig to the ER Quoted:
Quoted:
No one ever wants to deal with them so we get called and take them to the hospital who in turn do absolutely nothing and kick them to the curb after a few hours. The cycle repeats. What would you have hospital staff do? Here in NY the law gives ER staff 72 hrs to do an eval. So DO a 72 hr eval, not a 2 hr evail and kick them loose. If you need more bed space to be able to hold someone that long, build the beds you typically will need for the area population and that length of detention |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:21:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. I suspect that if the medical people thought they could sedate the patient, they would. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:23:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
State governments have cut funding to mental health services in order to balance their financial books. Jails have become the new mental institution. Liberal minded individuals also view any form of hospitalization as a violation of their human rights. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:23:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
State governments have cut funding to mental health services in order to balance their financial books. Jails have become the new mental institution. Nothing new about it. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:24:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tranquilizer him and transport him via ambulance. Not the back seat of a cop car. Of course that would require waking up the doctor to order the meds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Those patients have to be transported to a mental health hospital for inpatient stabilization by police. A paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't decide to go there on their own accord. Tranquilizer him and transport him via ambulance. Not the back seat of a cop car. Of course that would require waking up the doctor to order the meds. You think the docs have trank guns? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:28:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. My brother is schizophrenic and it has taken 5 fucking people including 3 police officers and two male hospital staff to restrain him when they took him in to admit him in the ER. Earlier that day it took 5 police officers and ALL of their OC spray to get him in cuffs. Until you've dealt with trying to restrain or get a psychotic person to go to the hospital you have no idea....Usually when it gets to that point they are so delusional they really believe everyone is trying to kill them or something close to it. Imagine how hard you're going to fight if you truly believe everyone around you is trying to kill you. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:28:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You think the docs have trank guns? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Those patients have to be transported to a mental health hospital for inpatient stabilization by police. A paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't decide to go there on their own accord. Tranquilizer him and transport him via ambulance. Not the back seat of a cop car. Of course that would require waking up the doctor to order the meds. You think the docs have trank guns? So..... how do the medics hold him still long enough to stick him with a needle in a safe spot.... and then hold him still for the next few minutes til the drug takes effect? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:32:56 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You think the docs have trank guns? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. Those patients have to be transported to a mental health hospital for inpatient stabilization by police. A paranoid schizophrenic usually doesn't decide to go there on their own accord. Tranquilizer him and transport him via ambulance. Not the back seat of a cop car. Of course that would require waking up the doctor to order the meds. You think the docs have trank guns? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:35:18 PM EDT
[#40]
again, how do the medics hold the person still long enough to stick him? cause i have yet to see a psych pt that wants to be stuck with a needle. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:35:47 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You think the docs have trank guns? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient How do you give an IM injection to a person who is actively fighting? Like in the movies where one guy stands by with the needle while others wrestle him? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:36:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My brother is schizophrenic and it has taken 5 fucking people including 3 police officers and two male hospital staff to restrain him when they took him in to admit him in the ER. Earlier that day it took 5 police officers and ALL of their OC spray to get him in cuffs. Until you've dealt with trying to restrain or get a psychotic person to go to the hospital you have no idea....Usually when it gets to that point they are so delusional they really believe everyone is trying to kill them or something close to it. Imagine how hard you're going to fight if you truly believe everyone around you is trying to kill you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's the bit about "mental health should not be a law enforcement issue"? That wasn't in the article. Are you saying the police shouldn't have been called? Medical personnel with sedating drugs are a safer solution than cops with guns. My brother is schizophrenic and it has taken 5 fucking people including 3 police officers and two male hospital staff to restrain him when they took him in to admit him in the ER. Earlier that day it took 5 police officers and ALL of their OC spray to get him in cuffs. Until you've dealt with trying to restrain or get a psychotic person to go to the hospital you have no idea....Usually when it gets to that point they are so delusional they really believe everyone is trying to kill them or something close to it. Imagine how hard you're going to fight if you truly believe everyone around you is trying to kill you. In this instance the patient was already in a care facility. They chose to call the cops rather than their staff doctor. I think that's the wrong call in those situations. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:37:11 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Tranquilizer him and transport him via ambulance. Not the back seat of a cop car. Of course that would require waking up the doctor to order the meds. You think the docs have trank guns? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient  |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:37:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How do you give an IM injection to a person who is actively fighting? Like in the movies where one guy stands by with the needle while others wrestle him? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You think the docs have trank guns? Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient How do you give an IM injection to a person who is actively fighting? Like in the movies where one guy stands by with the needle while others wrestle him? Do the terms infection control and antiseptic procedure not apply with crazy people? cause that is a good way to stick the wrong person with a needle, or even worse.... get your dirty needle wrestled away from you and now give the guy a weapon. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:39:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient You'll have to wrestle with him to stick him |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:40:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
again, how do the medics hold the person still long enough to stick him? cause i have yet to see a psych pt that wants to be stuck with a needle. I'm talking about in a hospital or other care facility, not on the street. Such facilities should have bough security and restraints to sedate a patient that needs it. It's not that hard to hold someone down long enough to jab a needle in his thigh or upper arm. Fighting him into cuffs is much more dangerous to all involved. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:40:24 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. C.i.t. training has become mandatory on quite a few departments. Even medical staff are telling families of ed p's to ask for c.i.t. trained officers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Tell that to all the states who keep giving LE pretty much the dominant role in dealing with them when in crisis. Its kinda like the hot potato, nobody wants to end up with it in their hands. This. C.i.t. training has become mandatory on quite a few departments. Even medical staff are telling families of ed p's to ask for c.i.t. trained officers. Gets one better. Mental health "professionals" are telling families to call the PD to handle stuff so they don't have to bother with finding a facility or becoming involved. Happens all the time, just yesterday in fact. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:41:16 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm talking about in a hospital or other care facility, not on the street. Such facilities should have bough security and restraints to sedate a patient that needs it. It's not that hard to hold someone down long enough to jab a needle in his thigh or upper arm. Fighting him into cuffs is much more dangerous to all involved. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: again, how do the medics hold the person still long enough to stick him? cause i have yet to see a psych pt that wants to be stuck with a needle. I'm talking about in a hospital or other care facility, not on the street. Such facilities should have bough security and restraints to sedate a patient that needs it. It's not that hard to hold someone down long enough to jab a needle in his thigh or upper arm. Fighting him into cuffs is much more dangerous to all involved. |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:41:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You'll have to wrestle with him to stick him Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Of course not. But it's a hell of a lot easier to give him an intramuscular sedative than it is to wrestle him into cuffs. Safer for the patient to. I've seen both done plenty and no question in my opinion as to which is less likely to injure the patient You'll have to wrestle with him to stick him If I give you a syringe and a pair of handcuffs which is easier to apply? |
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Posted: 7/23/2014 4:42:27 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm talking about in a hospital or other care facility, not on the street. Such facilities should have bough security and restraints to sedate a patient that needs it. It's not that hard to hold someone down long enough to jab a needle in his thigh or upper arm. Fighting him into cuffs is much more dangerous to all involved. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm talking about in a hospital or other care facility, not on the street. Such facilities should have bough security and restraints to sedate a patient that needs it. It's not that hard to hold someone down long enough to jab a needle in his thigh or upper arm. Fighting him into cuffs is much more dangerous to all involved. You've discredited your opinion. People are posting examples of guys who had to be held down by multiple officers. The same number would be needed in order to stick a needle in the guy Ambulance rigs with two people, one of whom is often a female, often times in my rural areas they're 60+ years of age volunteers...are NOT going to do any hands-on stuff like you describe Quoted:
If I give you a syringe and a pair of handcuffs which is easier to apply? See above I'm not sticking anyone, and the EMTs wont be sticking anyone who is unsecured and resistive |
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