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Posted: 4/23/2014 3:59:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had read that the current popular theory is that they broke up on the surface due to the rivet construction of additions which had been added over time to lengthen her. There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:21:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I had read that the current popular theory is that they broke up on the surface due to the rivet construction of additions which had been added over time to lengthen her. There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. There's also a good theory about a rogue wave that formed, which was about 60ft high. I wouldn't think much could have survived that, especially loaded down with ore. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:41:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's also a good theory about a rogue wave that formed, which was about 60ft high. I wouldn't think much could have survived that, especially loaded down with ore. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
I had read that the current popular theory is that they broke up on the surface due to the rivet construction of additions which had been added over time to lengthen her. There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. There's also a good theory about a rogue wave that formed, which was about 60ft high. I wouldn't think much could have survived that, especially loaded down with ore. That's plausible too, and would explain the lack of a distress call and blown out bridge windows. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:06:42 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Airplanes crash all the time, too. What's the fascination with some stupid Malaysian 777? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ships sink all the time, I never understood the fascination with this one. Airplanes crash all the time, too. What's the fascination with some stupid Malaysian 777? I don't get it either...... |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:10:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
because no one really knows what went on is my guess. That didn't stop Sebastian Junger with the Perfect Storm when it came to the Andrea Gail . |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:13:06 PM EDT
[#6]
I can't take it anymore. It keeps popping up in my subscribed threads.
Edmund. Edmund. Edmund. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:35:43 PM EDT
[#7]
If you could drain the lake this is what the wreck would look like.
     The pilot house. Shows just how violent the breakup was.  The lifeboat was found during one of the searches.    |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:39:03 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had read that the current popular theory is that they broke up on the surface due to the rivet construction of additions which had been added over time to lengthen her. There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. I never bought the "uncharted" shoal idea myself. I always figured she was taking on water, she had a list shortly before she disappeared and IMO the 3 sisters explanation makes the most sense. Particularly as the Anderson reported hitting those waves as well. I think they put the Fitz up at the bow and stern with all that weight in the middle, unsupported and she cracked up and went down - buried by the waves so fast she couldn't get a signal off. Most people who've never been to the Great Lakes can't possibly fathom how large they really are and how dangerous they are. Also most don't simply understand how huge a Great Lakes freighter is. Once you REALLY get your mind around how huge the Fitz was, you can really begin to appreciate how horrible the weather was to put her down. Never mind the other great storms that hit the lakes years prior - Storm of 1913 (killed 250 and sunk 19 ships), Black Friday of 1916 (49 men and 4 ships), and The Armistice Blizzard of 40 (66 deaths and several sinkings). I've also always found the sinking of the Bradley in 58 and the Morell in 66 to be really interesting as well. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:57:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ballard found it awhile ago, and confirmed the speculations as to what happened - there's more than one documentary about it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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because no one really knows what went on is my guess. Ballard found it awhile ago, and confirmed the speculations as to what happened - there's more than one documentary about it. The USCG found the Fitzgerald. I'm not sure Ballard has ever dived on Mighty Fitz. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:04:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It probably had a more localized impact on a single particular community than most ocean going ship wrecks. Just a guess. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ships sink all the time, I never understood the fascination with this one. It probably had a more localized impact on a single particular community than most ocean going ship wrecks. Just a guess. A guy form my home town died on the ship. Many local towns and cities can make the same claim. It was a large, modern, and largely "unsinkable" ship that went down with little warning and quickly enough that they never got an SOS off. Compound that with the fact that most experts cannot agree on what, exactly, caused her to sink and you have a great modern mystery. One that endures to this day. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:13:04 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never bought the "uncharted" shoal idea myself. I always figured she was taking on water, she had a list shortly before she disappeared and IMO the 3 sisters explanation makes the most sense. Particularly as the Anderson reported hitting those waves as well. I think they put the Fitz up at the bow and stern with all that weight in the middle, unsupported and she cracked up and went down - buried by the waves so fast she couldn't get a signal off. Most people who've never been to the Great Lakes can't possibly fathom how large they really are and how dangerous they are. Also most don't simply understand how huge a Great Lakes freighter is. Once you REALLY get your mind around how huge the Fitz was, you can really begin to appreciate how horrible the weather was to put her down. Never mind the other great storms that hit the lakes years prior - Storm of 1913 (killed 250 and sunk 19 ships), Black Friday of 1916 (49 men and 4 ships), and The Armistice Blizzard of 40 (66 deaths and several sinkings). I've also always found the sinking of the Bradley in 58 and the Morell in 66 to be really interesting as well. Schumacker reported that the charts were found to be inaccurate in his book, Mighty Fitz If I recall correctly, he isn't the only researcher to claim this. The Captain of the Anderson is on record, saying that Fitzgerald passed closer to the shoals than he'd have wanted to get. That, coupled with a down railing, seems to indicate there was a good possibility that she grounded at some point. She certainly suffered some major hull damage. Waves could not knockdown her rail by themselves. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:58:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
because no one really knows what went on is my guess. The don't know what happened to the Andrea Gail, but that didn't stop a book and a film. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:06:26 PM EDT
[#13]
The church bell chimed til It rang 29 times for each man on the Edmund Fitzgerald.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:21:58 PM EDT
[#14]
We're holding our own...
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:23:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never bought the "uncharted" shoal idea myself. I always figured she was taking on water, she had a list shortly before she disappeared and IMO the 3 sisters explanation makes the most sense. Particularly as the Anderson reported hitting those waves as well. I think they put the Fitz up at the bow and stern with all that weight in the middle, unsupported and she cracked up and went down - buried by the waves so fast she couldn't get a signal off. Most people who've never been to the Great Lakes can't possibly fathom how large they really are and how dangerous they are. Also most don't simply understand how huge a Great Lakes freighter is. Once you REALLY get your mind around how huge the Fitz was, you can really begin to appreciate how horrible the weather was to put her down. Never mind the other great storms that hit the lakes years prior - Storm of 1913 (killed 250 and sunk 19 ships), Black Friday of 1916 (49 men and 4 ships), and The Armistice Blizzard of 40 (66 deaths and several sinkings). I've also always found the sinking of the Bradley in 58 and the Morell in 66 to be really interesting as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had read that the current popular theory is that they broke up on the surface due to the rivet construction of additions which had been added over time to lengthen her. There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. I never bought the "uncharted" shoal idea myself. I always figured she was taking on water, she had a list shortly before she disappeared and IMO the 3 sisters explanation makes the most sense. Particularly as the Anderson reported hitting those waves as well. I think they put the Fitz up at the bow and stern with all that weight in the middle, unsupported and she cracked up and went down - buried by the waves so fast she couldn't get a signal off. Most people who've never been to the Great Lakes can't possibly fathom how large they really are and how dangerous they are. Also most don't simply understand how huge a Great Lakes freighter is. Once you REALLY get your mind around how huge the Fitz was, you can really begin to appreciate how horrible the weather was to put her down. Never mind the other great storms that hit the lakes years prior - Storm of 1913 (killed 250 and sunk 19 ships), Black Friday of 1916 (49 men and 4 ships), and The Armistice Blizzard of 40 (66 deaths and several sinkings). I've also always found the sinking of the Bradley in 58 and the Morell in 66 to be really interesting as well. The waves on Superior tend to have no real rhyme. Waves on the open ocean are mostly aligned with one another. Superior waves in a storm are like putting water in a cake pan and shaking it. They come from all directions. It really is a ridiculously dangerous lake in stormy weather. I used to fish with my grandfather in a 14 foot lund on Superior. 
Any weather made that insanely dangerous. You get 90 MPH winds on Superior those ships might as well be a 14 foot lund |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:23:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had read that the current popular theory is that they broke up on the surface due to the rivet construction of additions which had been added over time to lengthen her. There's a ton of theory's as to why it went down (much like the Titanic) I think it was a combination of all of the above, they had old chart's and ran aground, ships superstructure was weak, very bad weather, and a possible shifting load. I don't buy the USCG's hatch cover theory for a second. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:36:53 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Schumacker reported that the charts were found to be inaccurate in his book, Mighty Fitz If I recall correctly, he isn't the only researcher to claim this. The Captain of the Anderson is on record, saying that Fitzgerald passed closer to the shoals than he'd have wanted to get. That, coupled with a down railing, seems to indicate there was a good possibility that she grounded at some point. She certainly suffered some major hull damage. Waves could not knockdown her rail by themselves. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I never bought the "uncharted" shoal idea myself. I always figured she was taking on water, she had a list shortly before she disappeared and IMO the 3 sisters explanation makes the most sense. Particularly as the Anderson reported hitting those waves as well. I think they put the Fitz up at the bow and stern with all that weight in the middle, unsupported and she cracked up and went down - buried by the waves so fast she couldn't get a signal off. Most people who've never been to the Great Lakes can't possibly fathom how large they really are and how dangerous they are. Also most don't simply understand how huge a Great Lakes freighter is. Once you REALLY get your mind around how huge the Fitz was, you can really begin to appreciate how horrible the weather was to put her down. Never mind the other great storms that hit the lakes years prior - Storm of 1913 (killed 250 and sunk 19 ships), Black Friday of 1916 (49 men and 4 ships), and The Armistice Blizzard of 40 (66 deaths and several sinkings). I've also always found the sinking of the Bradley in 58 and the Morell in 66 to be really interesting as well. Schumacker reported that the charts were found to be inaccurate in his book, Mighty Fitz If I recall correctly, he isn't the only researcher to claim this. The Captain of the Anderson is on record, saying that Fitzgerald passed closer to the shoals than he'd have wanted to get. That, coupled with a down railing, seems to indicate there was a good possibility that she grounded at some point. She certainly suffered some major hull damage. Waves could not knockdown her rail by themselves. My buddy Bruce spent his whole career on lake freighters and was on a freighter that ran the same route as the Fitz but about an hour earlier. Bruce had sailed with the captain of the Fitz (didn't like him) and said that he had a tendency to run boats too close to shore. Bruce and his coworkers agree with the theory that the ship ran too close to the shoals, hit bottom and cracked the hull.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:56:06 PM EDT
[#18]
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:59:05 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let me see if I can help you with that... "I GOT A BRAND NEW PAIR OF ROLLER SKATES...YOU GOT A BRAND NEW KEY"... Did that help? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Now the song is stuck in my head.  Let me see if I can help you with that... "I GOT A BRAND NEW PAIR OF ROLLER SKATES...YOU GOT A BRAND NEW KEY"... Did that help? Motherfucker! 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:21:23 PM EDT
[#20]
A few ships in heavy seas on Lake Superior. The Fitz apparently encountered a freak storm much worse then these.
   Photographs were taken in November 2006 aboard Misener Steamships MV Selkirk Settler as she crossed Lake Superior     |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:32:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Here's a pic of a rogue wave. These are rare but they do exist is heavy storms. This is what probably took down the Fitz in one shot even before they could get a distress signal out.
 Another rogue wave over an oil freighter.  |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:37:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When someone writes a hit song about it and we start talking it to death on a yearly basis, get back to me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ships sink all the time, I never understood the fascination with this one. Airplanes crash all the time, too. What's the fascination with some stupid Malaysian 777? When someone writes a hit song about it and we start talking it to death on a yearly basis, get back to me. Tell us how you feel about D.B Cooper.... |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:49:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryI don't know what your post has to do with anything, but I sure liked that thread and the other two of your's that I ended up in from it. |
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:54:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That didn't stop Sebastian Junger with the Perfect Storm when it came to the Andrea Gail . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: because no one really knows what went on is my guess. That didn't stop Sebastian Junger with the Perfect Storm when it came to the Andrea Gail . |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 12:01:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote History
I don't remember seeing anything like that in either of the two museums I've been to on the shores of Superior. Wow. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 12:31:39 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let me see if I can help you with that... "I GOT A BRAND NEW PAIR OF ROLLER SKATES...YOU GOT A BRAND NEW KEY"... Did that help? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Now the song is stuck in my head. Let me see if I can help you with that... "I GOT A BRAND NEW PAIR OF ROLLER SKATES...YOU GOT A BRAND NEW KEY"... Did that help? You are an evil, evil man! 
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Posted: 4/24/2014 3:08:17 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell us how you feel about D.B Cooper.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ships sink all the time, I never understood the fascination with this one. Airplanes crash all the time, too. What's the fascination with some stupid Malaysian 777? When someone writes a hit song about it and we start talking it to death on a yearly basis, get back to me. Tell us how you feel about D.B Cooper.... Envious, mostly
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Posted: 4/24/2014 3:55:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Speaking of the Great Lakes. A new Great Lakes museum opens this weekend in Toledo, OH..
I once had the privilege of experiencing the wake off the bow of a 1000 foot freighter in the St. Clair river in my 16 Donzi. Things push about an 8 foot deep trough off the bow. Kind of unnerving when you look around and all you see is water.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 3:59:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't remember seeing anything like that in either of the two museums I've been to on the shores of Superior. Wow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't remember seeing anything like that in either of the two museums I've been to on the shores of Superior. Wow. That is a incredible picture. If the Fitz was already low in the water from leaking, damage, and/or overloading, I could easily see a wave like that submarine'ing the wheel house into a unrecoverable condition. You always also have to wonder about the haul integrity. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:05:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess you never saw "Boogie Nights." 
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Now the song is stuck in my head. Let me see if I can help you with that... "I GOT A BRAND NEW PAIR OF ROLLER SKATES...YOU GOT A BRAND NEW KEY"... Did that help? Dear Lord, I haven't thought of that song in probably thirty years. I guess you never saw "Boogie Nights."
Mmmmmmmm. RollerGirl. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:31:41 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Schumacker reported that the charts were found to be inaccurate in his book, Mighty Fitz If I recall correctly, he isn't the only researcher to claim this. I was looking at Fred Stonehouse's book and he is saying that the charts were made in 1919, and that was/is commonplace. The book also stated they had no electronic depth finding equipment, |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:41:33 AM EDT
[#32]
Damn, that's one hell of a wave............I would have hated to have been crossing the deck when that thing came
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A few ships in heavy seas on Lake Superior. The Fitz apparently encountered a freak storm much worse then these. http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/qzi_WI5VWcs/hqdefault.jpg http://www.glcclub.com/files/big_waves_600.jpg http://downstreamer.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/selkirksettler-smisener.jpg?w=700&h= Photographs were taken in November 2006 aboard Misener Steamships MV Selkirk Settler as she crossed Lake Superior http://downstreamer.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/storm2.jpg?w=700&h= http://downstreamer.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/storm3.jpg?w=700&h= http://downstreamer.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/storm4.jpg?w=700&h= http://downstreamer.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/storm5.jpg?w=700&h= |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:46:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If that ship was standing "on end", it would be sticking out of the water. Wow, that is amazing and accurate. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:47:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Tony Rice's cover was better than Gordon's original.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:39:36 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was looking at Fred Stonehouse's book and he is saying that the charts were made in 1919, and that was/is commonplace. The book also stated they had no electronic depth finding equipment, Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Schumacker reported that the charts were found to be inaccurate in his book, Mighty Fitz If I recall correctly, he isn't the only researcher to claim this. I was looking at Fred Stonehouse's book and he is saying that the charts were made in 1919, and that was/is commonplace. The book also stated they had no electronic depth finding equipment, Schumacker agrees (Just looked it up.MIghty Fitz p63) It was found, after the Fitzgerald wreck, that Six Fathom Shoals actually extended north about a mile further than the charts showed. In some parts of this area, the depth of the lake was as little as 31 feet. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:39:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Double shot.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:47:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My buddy Bruce spent his whole career on lake freighters and was on a freighter that ran the same route as the Fitz but about an hour earlier. Bruce had sailed with the captain of the Fitz (didn't like him) and said that he had a tendency to run boats too close to shore. Bruce and his coworkers agree with the theory that the ship ran too close to the shoals, hit bottom and cracked the hull. Growing up. my neighbor was a Lake Freighter captain. He really didn't have an opinion about Cooper, but he did have rather dim view of the USCG, after that night. It was pretty hard to get him worked up about anything, so I assume he feels pretty strongly about it. |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 4:54:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because it happened in a lake and not an ocean believe me if you stand on the shore of Lake Superior you will think its the ocean or the sea |
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Posted: 4/24/2014 5:19:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
believe me if you stand on the shore of Lake Superior you will think its the ocean or the sea Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Because it happened in a lake and not an ocean believe me if you stand on the shore of Lake Superior you will think its the ocean or the sea True statement. I now live by the Atlantic ocean and the shore of Lake Erie is just as intimidating. Those Great Lakes are just as dangerous in bad storms. Look at those pictures posted above. |
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