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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:14:35 PM EDT
[#1]
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you can accuse me of poking the bear all you want. no one has answered my specific question. so, at the time of crucifixion, god was anticipating later theological development, because god transcends time? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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right. it's magic. 'cause god. Are you always this angry curious? FIFY. yes. i asked a question. his answer was "because god." the concept of original sin was developed AFTER the time of jesus. jews do not believe in original sin. jesus was a jew. but somehow - 'cause god - jesus dies for the original sin of all. before anyone even knew what that was. so, that's not really an answer. and deus ex machina is a pretty lame plot device. There were a lot of other posts in there too. You really interested? Or you just pokin the bear? There was a lot of discussion put forth that assists in answering your question. You can go back and read it if you like. I am figuring that you don't like based on your presentation. Seem to be just another in a series of questioners that want to poke the bear. Try to get at the believers. you can accuse me of poking the bear all you want. no one has answered my specific question. so, at the time of crucifixion, god was anticipating later theological development, because god transcends time? The Pharisees believed they had God all figured out. Christ showed they did not. What one chooses to take from that lesson seems to vary greatly from person to person. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:15:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would I die a horrible death for family? Sure, wouldn't you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've always wondered about the sincerity of His, "death". It was more of a three day time-out, and he knew it. That's a whole lot less significant than any of us, "dieing". "Death", to you or me, is a sucky proposition, but "death" to Him, was essentially temporary. Think of all the sins ever committed by humans. Now consider the payment for sin is separation from God or eternal suffering. Christ bore the suffering, pain, and isolation that it would have taken the whole of humanity and eternity to bare; and he did it in 3 days and one abbreviated human lifetime. Christ sacrifice was the payment that changed death from an eternal sentence of punishment, into the passage for communion w/ God for those who believe. But he got over it. His fear of death was as real as anyone's. He cried in the garden and begged that it not be necessary, but ultimately obeyed. His pain of being scourged and beaten was as excruciating as yours would be. His agony and sense of utter abandonment on the cross was as genuine and "human" as anyone's would be. Let me ask you this - would you endure the beatings across the face, scourges until your back was near skinless, have your scalp ripped by thorns, mocked and rejected by the very people you tried to save, nailed to a cross for hours until you slowly bled to death, knowing that after the full day of agonizing torture and slow excruciating execution until you cry out "My God, my God why have you abandoned me!?", you would die..... all for the sake of the very same people torturing you? Would I die a horrible death for family? Sure, wouldn't you? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:15:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would I die a horrible death for family? Sure, wouldn't you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I've always wondered about the sincerity of His, "death". It was more of a three day time-out, and he knew it. That's a whole lot less significant than any of us, "dieing". "Death", to you or me, is a sucky proposition, but "death" to Him, was essentially temporary. Think of all the sins ever committed by humans. Now consider the payment for sin is separation from God or eternal suffering. Christ bore the suffering, pain, and isolation that it would have taken the whole of humanity and eternity to bare; and he did it in 3 days and one abbreviated human lifetime. Christ sacrifice was the payment that changed death from an eternal sentence of punishment, into the passage for communion w/ God for those who believe. But he got over it. His fear of death was as real as anyone's. He cried in the garden and begged that it not be necessary, but ultimately obeyed. His pain of being scourged and beaten was as excruciating as yours would be. His agony and sense of utter abandonment on the cross was as genuine and "human" as anyone's would be. Let me ask you this - would you endure the beatings across the face, scourges until your back was near skinless, have your scalp ripped by thorns, mocked and rejected by the very people you tried to save, nailed to a cross for hours until you slowly bled to death, knowing that after the full day of agonizing torture and slow excruciating execution until you cry out "My God, my God why have you abandoned me!?", you would die..... all for the sake of the very same people torturing you? Would I die a horrible death for family? Sure, wouldn't you? Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:18:32 PM EDT
[#4]
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Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:18:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Frigging quote tree.
It was not remotely a traditional sacrifice because he went "home" to his father. Sure he went through trials and tribulations, but he went back to where he began. Not. a. true. sacrifice. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:19:16 PM EDT
[#6]
What blows my mind is, so many people knowledgeable of Christ, still religiously celebrate a pagan fertility ritual (ishtar) and xmas (tree worship) as Christian holidays and ignore the true biblical holy days.
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:19:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. Well... ONE person did: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:19:49 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Frigging quote tree. It was not remotely a traditional sacrifice because he went "home" to his father. Sure he went through trials and tribulations, but he went back to where he began. Not. a. true. sacrifice. Answer. The. Frickin. Question. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:21:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:22:37 PM EDT
[#10]
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What blows my mind is, so many people knowledgeable of Christ, still religiously celebrate a pagan fertility ritual (ishtar) and xmas (tree worship) as Christian holidays and ignore the true biblical holy days. Yawn. What blows my mind is, how people will post this year after year whole other complain about an easter egg hunt being an illegal imposition of Christianity. Maybe, just maybe, both completely miss the point. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:23:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Frigging quote tree. It was not remotely a traditional sacrifice because he went "home" to his father. Sure he went through trials and tribulations, but he went back to where he began. Not. a. true. sacrifice. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:26:09 PM EDT
[#12]
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Yawn. What blows my mind is, how people will post this year after year whole other complain about an easter egg hunt being an illegal imposition of Christianity. Maybe, just maybe, both completely miss the point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What blows my mind is, so many people knowledgeable of Christ, still religiously celebrate a pagan fertility ritual (ishtar) and xmas (tree worship) as Christian holidays and ignore the true biblical holy days. Yawn. What blows my mind is, how people will post this year after year whole other complain about an easter egg hunt being an illegal imposition of Christianity. Maybe, just maybe, both completely miss the point. Maybe, just maybe satan is real and has gone to great lengths to skew the truth. Meanwhile christians hide eggs and give bunnies (signs of fertility) as gifts. Have fun wearing your blinders. Certainly something to "yawn" at. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:26:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote
AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:28:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe, just maybe satan is real and has gone to great lengths to skew the truth. Meanwhile christians hide eggs and give bunnies (signs of fertility) as gifts. Have fun wearing your blinders. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: What blows my mind is, so many people knowledgeable of Christ, still religiously celebrate a pagan fertility ritual (ishtar) and xmas (tree worship) as Christian holidays and ignore the true biblical holy days. Yawn. What blows my mind is, how people will post this year after year whole other complain about an easter egg hunt being an illegal imposition of Christianity. Maybe, just maybe, both completely miss the point. Maybe, just maybe satan is real and has gone to great lengths to skew the truth. Meanwhile christians hide eggs and give bunnies (signs of fertility) as gifts. Have fun wearing your blinders. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:28:53 PM EDT
[#15]
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Well... ONE person did: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. Well... ONE person did: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" If I may respectfully say that in my very humble and very simple opinion, it is nothing more than a plot of device in a piece of theater. What would ONE man do if some hard-hitting roman soldiers went to work on his beloved mother? Sit there and let it happen while praying for their forgiveness? This is the analogy you laid out, which I told you gets rather absurd pretty quickly. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:29:31 PM EDT
[#16]
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Maybe, just maybe satan is real and has gone to great lengths to skew the truth. Meanwhile christians hide eggs and give bunnies (signs of fertility) as gifts. Have fun wearing your blinders. Certainly something to "yawn" at. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What blows my mind is, so many people knowledgeable of Christ, still religiously celebrate a pagan fertility ritual (ishtar) and xmas (tree worship) as Christian holidays and ignore the true biblical holy days. Yawn. What blows my mind is, how people will post this year after year whole other complain about an easter egg hunt being an illegal imposition of Christianity. Maybe, just maybe, both completely miss the point. Maybe, just maybe satan is real and has gone to great lengths to skew the truth. Meanwhile christians hide eggs and give bunnies (signs of fertility) as gifts. Have fun wearing your blinders. Certainly something to "yawn" at. Let me guess, birthdays are also Satanic in your mind? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:31:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:33:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I may respectfully say that in my very humble and very simple opinion, it is nothing more than a plot of device in a piece of theater. What would ONE man do if some hard-hitting roman soldiers went to work on his beloved mother? Sit there and let it happen while praying for their forgiveness? This is the analogy you laid out, which I told you gets rather absurd pretty quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. Well... ONE person did: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" If I may respectfully say that in my very humble and very simple opinion, it is nothing more than a plot of device in a piece of theater. What would ONE man do if some hard-hitting roman soldiers went to work on his beloved mother? Sit there and let it happen while praying for their forgiveness? This is the analogy you laid out, which I told you gets rather absurd pretty quickly. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:33:59 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. God... sacrificed.... himself. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:34:12 PM EDT
[#20]
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:34:25 PM EDT
[#21]
Happy Easter. Jesus is Lord.
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:34:46 PM EDT
[#22]
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Let me guess, birthdays are also Satanic in your mind? Why would birthdays be satanic? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:35:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If I may respectfully say that in my very humble and very simple opinion, it is nothing more than a plot of device in a piece of theater. What would ONE man do if some hard-hitting roman soldiers went to work on his beloved mother? Sit there and let it happen while praying for their forgiveness? This is the analogy you laid out, which I told you gets rather absurd pretty quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would you take a bullet to the head to save the life of the person shooting you and raping your family? Let's not descend into the absurd. You wouldn't either, and no man in his right mind would, as it should be. No power is the universe is a threat to God, not even for an instant. Well... ONE person did: "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" If I may respectfully say that in my very humble and very simple opinion, it is nothing more than a plot of device in a piece of theater. What would ONE man do if some hard-hitting roman soldiers went to work on his beloved mother? Sit there and let it happen while praying for their forgiveness? This is the analogy you laid out, which I told you gets rather absurd pretty quickly. Jesus knew the depths of depravity for which he was asking the Father to forgive and for which he was being sacrificed. He confronted pure evil face-to-face, allowed evil to do all that it could to him, prophesied the persecution of his followers, and then triumphed over it all. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:35:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: God... sacrificed... himself. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. God... sacrificed... himself. God... sacrificed... himself. <--- THIS. Somebody paid very close attention in Sunday school. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:36:17 PM EDT
[#25]
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1. Some things neither you or I are capable of grasping. It simply is because he says. If that isn't ok for you cool. Don't try to "rationalize" believers out of belief. 2. Maybe try believing yourself or go on your merry way and let me know how that works out for you on the otherside. There are a lot more things that can be scrutized and you have not cornered any enlightenment market. 1. okay, so the explanation is still "because god." if man was not capable of grasping such things i wonder why the church has gone through so many theological gyrations on various questions like the one i am asking, but, whatever you say... 2. yes, i'm doomed and i'm not so smart. right. got it. nice work. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:38:23 PM EDT
[#26]
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Happy Easter. Jesus is Lord. Happy Easter to you too. My parents also wished me happy Easter and lit up candles for me when they attended the big ceremony earlier today. I returned the good wishes to them as well. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:42:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. Hebrew sacrifices of pure lambs were sacrifices TO God. This was an act of obedience TO God and a ritual reflecting what God would ultimately do for US. Of COURSE God's sacrifice FOR us would be different than OUR sacrifice to HIM. We're nowhere near on the same levels. God sacrificed his most perfect creation, Jesus, not TO anyone but FOR us all. And, yet again... my question is a simple yes or no. Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? A) Yes B) No Pick one. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:45:22 PM EDT
[#28]
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You should apologize to <snip> the thief that went to Paridise with God on Good Friday. Neither of them persecuted God either. Nope, you are wrong. You should have been in our Sunday School this morning, as we discussed this very thing. 
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. The thieves reviled Jesus. Even the one that Jesus was going to Save in a couple of hours was ridiculing Him. But Jesus loved him anyway and Saved him without the thief deserving it. Just like me. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:46:10 PM EDT
[#29]
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Why would birthdays be satanic? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Let me guess, birthdays are also Satanic in your mind? Why would birthdays be satanic? Why would easter eggs be? I'm trying understand the extent of your "logic." |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:46:36 PM EDT
[#30]
I'm done with this. Happy Easter - Jesus Christ is risen! Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! Gloria in te Domine, Gloria exultate!  |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:48:31 PM EDT
[#31]
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I'm done with this. Happy Easter - Jesus Christ is risen! Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit!  http://youtu.be/NZvXjbenCOs
Don't let them run you off. We are having an interesting discussion. And you never know who is reading and not posting.
Happy Easter. 
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:50:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't let them run you off. We are having an interesting discussion. And you never know who is reading and not posting. Happy Easter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm done with this. Happy Easter - Jesus Christ is risen! Glory be to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit! http://youtu.be/NZvXjbenCOsDon't let them run you off. We are having an interesting discussion. And you never know who is reading and not posting. Happy Easter. I'm going to go to Olive Garden with the family for Easter. (yeah I know). Happy Easter good sir!  |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:50:42 PM EDT
[#33]
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Why would easter eggs be? I'm trying understand the extent of your "logic." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Let me guess, birthdays are also Satanic in your mind? Why would birthdays be satanic? Why would easter eggs be? I'm trying understand the extent of your "logic." Logic, somgic. Who cares.
We celebrate Easter at this time of the year because of the Passover. But since it coincides with the pagan celebration of fertility, some folks try to make a big deal out of it. They are grasping for straws. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:57:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. okay, so the explanation is still "because god." if man was not capable of grasping such things i wonder why the church has gone through so many theological gyrations on various questions like the one i am asking, but, whatever you say... 2. yes, i'm doomed and i'm not so smart. right. got it. nice work. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 1. Some things neither you or I are capable of grasping. It simply is because he says. If that isn't ok for you cool. Don't try to "rationalize" believers out of belief. 2. Maybe try believing yourself or go on your merry way and let me know how that works out for you on the otherside. There are a lot more things that can be scrutized and you have not cornered any enlightenment market. 1. okay, so the explanation is still "because god." if man was not capable of grasping such things i wonder why the church has gone through so many theological gyrations on various questions like the one i am asking, but, whatever you say... 2. yes, i'm doomed and i'm not so smart. right. got it. nice work. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 12:59:33 PM EDT
[#35]
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Hebrew sacrifices of pure lambs were sacrifices TO God. This was an act of obedience TO God and a ritual reflecting what God would ultimately do for US. Of COURSE God's sacrifice FOR us would be different than OUR sacrifice to HIM. We're nowhere near on the same levels. God sacrificed his most perfect creation, Jesus, not TO anyone but FOR us all. And, yet again... my question is a simple yes or no. Yessir, if you read up on the Passover celebration, a lamb without spot wrinkle or blemish sacrificed. Sound familiar? [ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. Hebrew sacrifices of pure lambs were sacrifices TO God. This was an act of obedience TO God and a ritual reflecting what God would ultimately do for US. Of COURSE God's sacrifice FOR us would be different than OUR sacrifice to HIM. We're nowhere near on the same levels. God sacrificed his most perfect creation, Jesus, not TO anyone but FOR us all. And, yet again... my question is a simple yes or no. Yessir, if you read up on the Passover celebration, a lamb without spot wrinkle or blemish sacrificed. Sound familiar? [ |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:04:12 PM EDT
[#36]
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God... sacrificed.... himself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. God... sacrificed.... himself. If you say so. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:05:43 PM EDT
[#37]
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You sir are more wrapped up in phonetics and grammar than the message. I pity you and Jesus loves you, as much as the day he did when he made his sacrifice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. I have no need for your pity. Jesus loves me just enough to send me to an eternity in hell. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:09:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hebrew sacrifices of pure lambs were sacrifices TO God. This was an act of obedience TO God and a ritual reflecting what God would ultimately do for US. Of COURSE God's sacrifice FOR us would be different than OUR sacrifice to HIM. We're nowhere near on the same levels. God sacrificed his most perfect creation, Jesus, not TO anyone but FOR us all. And, yet again... my question is a simple yes or no. Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? A) Yes B) No Pick one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. Hebrew sacrifices of pure lambs were sacrifices TO God. This was an act of obedience TO God and a ritual reflecting what God would ultimately do for US. Of COURSE God's sacrifice FOR us would be different than OUR sacrifice to HIM. We're nowhere near on the same levels. God sacrificed his most perfect creation, Jesus, not TO anyone but FOR us all. And, yet again... my question is a simple yes or no. Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? A) Yes B) No Pick one. He didn't sacrifice him. He loaned him out. No it is not. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:14:57 PM EDT
[#39]
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He didn't sacrifice him. He loaned him out. No it is not. Maybe you don't understand. "World ain't what it seems, is it Gunny? " |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:16:13 PM EDT
[#40]
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Your failures are not mine. We each have our own burdens. Any nice work is between you and God. I cannot possibly decide your heart for you. Guilt you carry or don't has zero to do with me. Whether I have explained the Gospel in terms you can understand or not, I am in no way shape or form responsible for the discernment you have to exercise. Any shortcomings belong solely to you. I have my own I have to deal with. Good luck with finding some happiness. Jesus is there for you should you decide to accept it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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1. Some things neither you or I are capable of grasping. It simply is because he says. If that isn't ok for you cool. Don't try to "rationalize" believers out of belief. 2. Maybe try believing yourself or go on your merry way and let me know how that works out for you on the otherside. There are a lot more things that can be scrutized and you have not cornered any enlightenment market. 1. okay, so the explanation is still "because god." if man was not capable of grasping such things i wonder why the church has gone through so many theological gyrations on various questions like the one i am asking, but, whatever you say... 2. yes, i'm doomed and i'm not so smart. right. got it. nice work. i wasn't looking for a counseling session. just an answer to a legitimate question. i'm not particularly concerned with resolving guilt or finding happiness, i'm cool with that stuff, but it is interesting that you took it there. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:17:00 PM EDT
[#41]
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. The old testament animal sacrifices were an atonement of men and way to be redeemed. In that way your sacrificial lamb did come back in the form of salvation or atonement. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all of mankind for those who believe in and accept His sacrifice, his sacrifice is returned in our salvation. You are discussing a sacrifice in a worldly sense and that is not what the faith of believers is about at all. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:18:29 PM EDT
[#42]
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Why would easter eggs be? I'm trying understand the extent of your "logic." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would easter eggs be? I'm trying understand the extent of your "logic." Because easter is a known and historical pagan fertility ritual, that is identified by certain symbols as their icons, and those icons are now used (way out of context to boot) to represent Christs ascension. 
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Logic, somgic. Who cares. We celebrate Easter at this time of the year because of the Passover. But since it coincides with the pagan celebration of fertility, some folks try to make a big deal out of it. They are grasping for straws. Or maybe the truth matters? And don't forget that thing in the Bible about God telling us not to be like the pagans or mimic their rituals. Truth schmooth, who cares though. Right? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:19:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no need for your pity. Jesus loves me just enough to send me to an eternity in hell. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. I have no need for your pity. Jesus loves me just enough to send me to an eternity in hell. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:22:19 PM EDT
[#44]
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Nobody else but you is responsible for your own cowardice. It is definitely cowardice by which you blame others for your shortcomings. and now you are calling people cowards. nice. happy easter. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:23:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? Sure you are Fred!
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:27:33 PM EDT
[#46]
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If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. one of the reason Pilate went along with it was the fact that Jesus was at total peace in the chain of events. Pilate began to realize what laid before him and he was just a part of a puzzle in a Master Plan. Pilate at first did everything to absolve himself of the situation. claiming that Jesus was guiltless, sending him to Herrod to let him take responsibility and then the realization came. Pilate was a hardcore man. capable and proven to be stone cold. but yet he was torn apart by this situation. part politics, part due to his wife and friends pleading for him not to become apart of it and finally his meetings with Jesus, which he felt the true meaning of the situation. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:43:45 PM EDT
[#47]
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The old testament animal sacrifices were an atonement of men and way to be redeemed. In that way your sacrificial lamb did come back in the form of salvation or atonement. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all of mankind for those who believe in and accept His sacrifice, his sacrifice is returned in our salvation. You are discussing a sacrifice in a worldly sense and that is not what the faith of believers is about at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. The old testament animal sacrifices were an atonement of men and way to be redeemed. In that way your sacrificial lamb did come back in the form of salvation or atonement. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all of mankind for those who believe in and accept His sacrifice, his sacrifice is returned in our salvation. You are discussing a sacrifice in a worldly sense and that is not what the faith of believers is about at all. I get it. Permanent sacrifice for humans, different rules for deity. If it makes sense to you that is great. If Jesus keeps someone who needs to be sober, sober, that is awesome too. I think we make our own heaven or hell right here, kind of along the lines of luke 17:21. If you need Jesus to make this life heaven, then go for it. I personally do not need all the dogma to live a good life and to help others. I am good with the thought that when I die it is over, I am worm food and forgotten. I do not feel the need to strive for eternal life. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:46:44 PM EDT
[#48]
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No sir. That is a choice you make on your own. Nobody else but you is responsible for your own cowardice. It is definitely cowardice by which you blame others for your shortcomings. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quote And AGAIN - back to your original criticism of it not being a real sacrifice: Is it a sacrifice for you to be cut across your back for someone else, since your cut will heal? Quote AGAIN You are talking about something completely different. The whole lamb of god sacrifice is is making an exception to how traditional sacrifices were done for centuries. I make a sacrifice of a lamb to god, I don't get it back. God makes a lamb sacrifice, he gets it back. You were washed in the blood of a lamb that was only loaned, not truly sacrificed. I have no need for your pity. Jesus loves me just enough to send me to an eternity in hell. What makes me a coward? Personal attacks are usually followed by a time out, but i will not report you. You call me a coward for not bowing down to a deity? Edit perhaps you should brush up on Matthew 7:1-3 |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 1:49:37 PM EDT
[#49]
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? I'm sure that this has been said already, but you really need to read The Book. It's all in there... For starters, the Romans and Pilate didn't put Jesus through the Passion. ALL OF US DID.... |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 2:01:48 PM EDT
[#50]
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Nope, you are wrong. You should have been in our Sunday School this morning, as we discussed this very thing.
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. The thieves reviled Jesus. Even the one that Jesus was going to Save in a couple of hours was ridiculing Him. But Jesus loved him anyway and Saved him without the thief deserving it. Just like me. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You should apologize to <snip> the thief that went to Paridise with God on Good Friday. Neither of them persecuted God either. Nope, you are wrong. You should have been in our Sunday School this morning, as we discussed this very thing.
Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him. The thieves reviled Jesus. Even the one that Jesus was going to Save in a couple of hours was ridiculing Him. But Jesus loved him anyway and Saved him without the thief deserving it. Just like me. No one said anything about being deserving. I didn't need to be in your class this AM, I already concluded that Luke's account is correct. Mark's account gives no details. Luke's account does. The account gives the exchange that occurred between the theif/rebel/whatever, that did not persecute God, and the account included that theif's rebuke of the other theif that did persecuted Jesus. Luke 23:39-43, " One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”" Your class must have concluded that God did not say this to the guy and Luke, per the eyewitness, was wrong. There is no other alternate logical conclusion. I would guess that was, because of the rule of accussing folks of sin apriori. I believe the Matt's and Mark's accounts were wrong, because a poor assumption was made due to a lack of memory(s). God, by way of Luke's account, wanted this man and his testimony to be remembered and not lost, becaus eit was important to Him. Jesus said the blind man in John 9 did not sin, but the Pharisees accussed him of being "steeped in sin at birth". That's what was lost with the "snip". Happy Easter. |
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