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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:27:06 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Getting fatter and slower. Beers on me man. Sh*t yeah... here's to fatter and slower! 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:28:14 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many lives have been saved by SWAT? A sucessfull SWAT operation does not involve gunfire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Care to discuss how many botched SWAT raids that have resulted in the death or injury of innocents? How many lives have been saved by SWAT? A sucessfull SWAT operation does not involve gunfire. the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:29:37 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How many lives have been saved by SWAT? A sucessfull SWAT operation does not involve gunfire. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Care to discuss how many botched SWAT raids that have resulted in the death or injury of innocents? How many lives have been saved by SWAT? A sucessfull SWAT operation does not involve gunfire. To be honest a SWAT/SRT op that ends in gun fire is a failure. We train with as much (if not more) no shoot scenarios than shoot scenarios. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:29:44 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
tell that to the dead or injured due to the United States of SWAT attitude and botched raids I guess that does not qualify as drama...at least to them it most likely did the point is we have a large number of people willing to violate rights simply due to being ordered to by their "leaders" the same mentality existed in the people that carried out the will of Hitler...ever hear of Nuremberg????? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What some of you who are blinded do not see is the following we now have a large number of people willing to violate the Bill of Rights of US Citizens simply due to being ordered to. As for the execution pic...you don't think that they were following orders too? Care to discuss how many botched SWAT raids that have resulted in the death or injury of innocents? I personally subscribe to the thoughts of Thomas Jefferson...I would rather see a guilty person go free than an innocent punished or hurt by govt actions. I guess the Founding Fathers of the United States are so past tense... I agree with "I would rather see a guilty person go free than an innocent punished" but I still don't see the Genocide connection. Your point is lost in all your drama. tell that to the dead or injured due to the United States of SWAT attitude and botched raids I guess that does not qualify as drama...at least to them it most likely did the point is we have a large number of people willing to violate rights simply due to being ordered to by their "leaders" the same mentality existed in the people that carried out the will of Hitler...ever hear of Nuremberg????? The point is...in terms of willingly violating peoples rights, I'd be willing to bet this happens less today than even 40 years ago. The cops back in the day were more likely to beat you to a pulp for something as simple as mouthing off. I'm sure someone will drop a few links showing current examples of this happening, but it's way less common these days. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:31:59 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Care to discuss how many botched SWAT raids that have resulted in the death or injury of innocents? How many lives have been saved by SWAT? A sucessfull SWAT operation does not involve gunfire. the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many I agree 100% as does all cops I know. Your Nazi bullshit drama ruins any point you try to post. By the way I'm still waiting on that #. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:34:26 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm so going to have to step up my game so we can catch up. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:34:43 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
High-risk warrant service can be done by a regional or even state team that can be full time. Beyond that, train and equip individual officers to deal with active shooters and other rapidly developing incidents. An entire state? That's spreading the resource too thin. Multi-jurisdictional teams already exist for more rural areas like ours and I am sure that we aren't alone |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:35:36 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sh*t yeah...here's to fatter and slower! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Getting fatter and slower. Beers on me man. Sh*t yeah...here's to fatter and slower! Says mister fucking fit himself.  |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:36:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Care to discuss how many botched SWAT raids that have resulted in the death or injury of innocents? How many lives have been saved by SWAT? A sucessfull SWAT operation does not involve gunfire. the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many Ban cars, it's for the kids. One of them died in a car accident. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:38:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
]My county doesn't have a SWAT team either. If one is needed, there are enough deputies to throw one together between my county and the one to the north. . You don't just "throw together" a SWAT team |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:48:19 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still need crew served weapons. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm so going to have to step up my game so we can catch up. Aww nothing like the chatter of a belt fed to drown out the screams of the innocents. ETA Were did Bwood go? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:50:46 AM EDT
[#12]
The "militarization of the police" would be of NO concern to the vast majority of citizens here and elsewhere IF abuses of power weren't visible and rampant. IF the PDs that deployed SWAT teams did it in such a manner that was always truly warranted and professional, this would NOT be an issue for all but the most anti-LE. It's that simple. You want to be trusted and above suspicion? Then ACT respectable and above suspicion. It's not rocket science. Somewhere along the way some of these JBTs forgot that they're SUPPOSED to be serving more than their brothers-in-blue and themselves.
BTW... I work with the guys on my PD's SWAT team every day. I don't sit in fear of them kicking my door in at night because I don't live in a way that puts me at risk for that, and THEY don't deploy the SWAT team to handle jay-walking and hang-nails, or just to put on a show of force to keep the lowly citizens in line. People here watch these things closely and would be restless if deployments of SWAT teams were applied too liberally. Most of the worst offenses in that regard happen in commie-controlled territory where the sheeple have willingly allowed themselves to become irrelevant. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 11:55:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many So... if it can't be perfect, it shouldn't be done at all? Other risk-benefit analyses be damned? Hmmm. It's such an unattainable standard, that I have to question that viewpoint's willingness to allow ANY kind of police tactical units. Ah, hell... I'm not questioning it, I'm coming right out and saying it; those folks want all SWAT gone. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:06:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: really??? what do you call 200 armed agents trying to collect unpaid grazing fees Oh fucking please you need to wake the fuck up amigo let's hear you defend that one Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: But today's SWAT teams and SWAT team members are simply following orders hmmmm.....where have I heard that line before http://direitasja.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/gestapo.jpg really??? what do you call 200 armed agents trying to collect unpaid grazing fees Oh fucking please you need to wake the fuck up amigo let's hear you defend that one Actually, those are soldiers in that picture, not police. I couldn't help but notice that you have a little tank under your name. Since you had to dig way back to WW2 for that pic, what are your thoughts on a more recent atrocity like the My Lai Massacre. I suppose that accurately represents you and the other service members of AR15.com?
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:07:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What some of you who are blinded do not see is the following we now have a large number of people willing to violate the Bill of Rights of US Citizens simply due to being ordered to. As for the execution pic...you don't think that they were following orders too? Care to discuss how many botched SWAT raids that have resulted in the death or injury of innocents? I personally subscribe to the thoughts of Thomas Jefferson...I would rather see a guilty person go free than an innocent punished or hurt by govt actions. I guess the Founding Fathers of the United States are so past tense... Lol. My you are a wacky guy.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:07:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don't just "throw together" a SWAT team Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ]My county doesn't have a SWAT team either. If one is needed, there are enough deputies to throw one together between my county and the one to the north. . You don't just "throw together" a SWAT team The only tactical team that the county I live in is a part of is a mutual aid agreement between two counties, and it's rarely if ever utilized. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:23:24 PM EDT
[#17]
I is totally against militarization of police!!!
BTW, anybody got any deals on... level IV plates multicam carrier crye pants and shirts with salomon boots to match molle webbing multicam packs military clone weapons electronic ear pro with coms ballistic helmets breaching rounds multicam molle harness for my K9 NVG 5.56 brown tip anything multicam I need all this for range trips and SHTF. But I is totally against militarization of police!!!! |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:23:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So... if it can't be perfect, it shouldn't be done at all? Other risk-benefit analyses be damned? Hmmm. It's such an unattainable standard, that I have to question that viewpoint's willingness to allow ANY kind of police tactical units. Ah, hell... I'm not questioning it, I'm coming right out and saying it; those folks want all SWAT gone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many So... if it can't be perfect, it shouldn't be done at all? Other risk-benefit analyses be damned? Hmmm. It's such an unattainable standard, that I have to question that viewpoint's willingness to allow ANY kind of police tactical units. Ah, hell... I'm not questioning it, I'm coming right out and saying it; those folks want all SWAT gone. I do not want all SWAT gone. What I do want is a much tighter control on the use. I get sick and tired of hearing and seeing the mistakes...the abuses. I do think much more accountability needs to be put in place to punish those that abuse the power, and those that fuck up with simple intelligence matters such as wrong addresses. Who pays for those mistakes and abuses? Answer...the taxpayers. How many SWAT members have been successfully sued individually for these tragedies? How many department heads have been replaced? Any? Americans are sick and tired of this bullshit. It is the abuse of power by the authorities that is causing an erosion of trust. It is much like a guerilla war....fuck up one innocent accidentally...create 10 more against you. The odds are stacked against the people abusing these freedoms over time. People will get fed up and stop the bullshit. in the recent Nevada incident...we had 200 blindly following orders. Holding guns, decked out in SWAT gear, complete with German Shepards, etc...against what? Americans defending against overreaches of the federal government? The fuckers that participated in this should be ashamed....all of them will state...they were simply following orders. Last I checked it is up to people to stand against illegal orders. As for the person who noted the tank icon in my profile...yes you are correct. I took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution from ALL enemies foreign and domestic. I was NOT an MyLai. Had I been, I would have refused the orders. There were a number of .mil people on the scene who did exactly that and reported Lt Calley, and the group...which is what they should have done. the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate. The issue we face if our police....what once were community servants...are now enforcers of administrations ...glorified tax collectors. Remember the "Always think Forfeiture" logo? The blue line has long since forgotten they are public servants.... |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:27:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was a thread here about some SWAT team that got the crap shot out of them by some?? drug dealer maybe? the whole thing sounded like a mess from the start. Yeah, some barefoot kid with a 9mm handgun who was sleeping 30 seconds ago. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:27:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I is totally against militarization of police!!! BTW, anybody got any deals on... level IV plates multicam carrier crye pants and shirts with salomon boots to match molle webbing multicam packs military clone weapons electronic ear pro with coms ballistic helmets breaching rounds multicam molle harness for my K9 NVG 5.56 brown tip anything multicam I need all this for range trips and SHTF. But I is totally against militarization of police!!!! See my post above. Most people here and elsewhere are against the "over-zealous application of police" more than they are the tools of the trade. It just so happens that these days the two often go hand-in-hand. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:30:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate. The issue we face if our police....what once were community servants...are now enforcers of administrations ...glorified tax collectors. Remember the "Always think Forfeiture" logo? The blue line has long since forgotten they are public servants.... 
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:31:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate.  Credibility = Gone. ETA: beat my 40 seconds. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:34:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics...
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:35:36 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics... We get a medal no matter where we place? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:36:11 PM EDT
[#25]
 Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do not want all SWAT gone. What I do want is a much tighter control on the use. I get sick and tired of hearing and seeing the mistakes...the abuses. I do think much more accountability needs to be put in place to punish those that abuse the power, and those that fuck up with simple intelligence matters such as wrong addresses. Who pays for those mistakes and abuses? Answer...the taxpayers. How many SWAT members have been successfully sued individually for these tragedies? How many department heads have been replaced? Any? Americans are sick and tired of this bullshit. It is the abuse of power by the authorities that is causing an erosion of trust. It is much like a guerilla war....fuck up one innocent accidentally...create 10 more against you. The odds are stacked against the people abusing these freedoms over time. People will get fed up and stop the bullshit. in the recent Nevada incident...we had 200 blindly following orders. Holding guns, decked out in SWAT gear, complete with German Shepards, etc...against what? Americans defending against overreaches of the federal government? The fuckers that participated in this should be ashamed....all of them will state...they were simply following orders. Last I checked it is up to people to stand against illegal orders. As for the person who noted the tank icon in my profile...yes you are correct. I took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution from ALL enemies foreign and domestic. I was NOT an MyLai. Had I been, I would have refused the orders. There were a number of .mil people on the scene who did exactly that and reported Lt Calley, and the group...which is what they should have done. the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate. The issue we face if our police....what once were community servants...are now enforcers of administrations ...glorified tax collectors. Remember the "Always think Forfeiture" logo? The blue line has long since forgotten they are public servants.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many So... if it can't be perfect, it shouldn't be done at all? Other risk-benefit analyses be damned? Hmmm. It's such an unattainable standard, that I have to question that viewpoint's willingness to allow ANY kind of police tactical units. Ah, hell... I'm not questioning it, I'm coming right out and saying it; those folks want all SWAT gone. I do not want all SWAT gone. What I do want is a much tighter control on the use. I get sick and tired of hearing and seeing the mistakes...the abuses. I do think much more accountability needs to be put in place to punish those that abuse the power, and those that fuck up with simple intelligence matters such as wrong addresses. Who pays for those mistakes and abuses? Answer...the taxpayers. How many SWAT members have been successfully sued individually for these tragedies? How many department heads have been replaced? Any? Americans are sick and tired of this bullshit. It is the abuse of power by the authorities that is causing an erosion of trust. It is much like a guerilla war....fuck up one innocent accidentally...create 10 more against you. The odds are stacked against the people abusing these freedoms over time. People will get fed up and stop the bullshit. in the recent Nevada incident...we had 200 blindly following orders. Holding guns, decked out in SWAT gear, complete with German Shepards, etc...against what? Americans defending against overreaches of the federal government? The fuckers that participated in this should be ashamed....all of them will state...they were simply following orders. Last I checked it is up to people to stand against illegal orders. As for the person who noted the tank icon in my profile...yes you are correct. I took an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution from ALL enemies foreign and domestic. I was NOT an MyLai. Had I been, I would have refused the orders. There were a number of .mil people on the scene who did exactly that and reported Lt Calley, and the group...which is what they should have done. the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate. The issue we face if our police....what once were community servants...are now enforcers of administrations ...glorified tax collectors. Remember the "Always think Forfeiture" logo? The blue line has long since forgotten they are public servants.... The part in red is as stupid as your Nazi picture. All your tough words and nothing to back it up. Let's see those numbers I asked for earlier? Why wont you stand by your claims. And yes there are some bad raids on the CATO map. The majority though are not. It is as far from accurate as your comparing SWAT to Nazis. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:37:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Credibility = Gone. ETA: beat my 40 seconds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate.
Credibility = Gone. ETA: beat my 40 seconds. He still had credibility with you after his Nazis BS? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:38:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He still had credibility with you after his Nazis BS? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: the CATO raid report has been posted here many times...and each time it is glossed over by many behind the blue line. It is accurate. Credibility = Gone. ETA: beat my 40 seconds. He still had credibility with you after his Nazis BS? I missed that post. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:40:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But today's SWAT teams and SWAT team members are simply following orders hmmmm.....where have I heard that line before http://direitasja.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/gestapo.jpg  |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:41:41 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The only tactical team that the county I live in is a part of is a mutual aid agreement between two counties, and it's rarely if ever utilized. Do they actually train together or is it some agreement to send personnel if requested? That's not a tactical team |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:49:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. Aimless hits the mark once again. All the arguments that people against the appearance of militarized police is shallow... Don't you think that has a tendancy to escalate things a little prematurely or unnecessarily? I'm going to react a lot different to a plain clothes detective or regular squad car than an MRAP with 12 tacticool guys parking on the lawn. The problem is every cop wants to believe they are special (it's no different in the military everyone wants to believe they are SF or Seals or whatever). So every department has decided to make themselves a cool guy club. We used to glamorize smart cops who could solve crimes (detectives). Now we glamorize paramilitary units that can outshoot a threat that largely doesn't exist. Personally, I'd prefer a cop that could figure out a way to get the day to day job done without all that crap. But I guess thinking is for faggots and it's way more fun to just intimidate the entire population into compliance. Time to get cops back on track. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:52:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So... if it can't be perfect, it shouldn't be done at all? Other risk-benefit analyses be damned? Hmmm. It's such an unattainable standard, that I have to question that viewpoint's willingness to allow ANY kind of police tactical units. Ah, hell... I'm not questioning it, I'm coming right out and saying it; those folks want all SWAT gone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
the point is how many innocents have been lost 1 is 1 too many So... if it can't be perfect, it shouldn't be done at all? Other risk-benefit analyses be damned? Hmmm. It's such an unattainable standard, that I have to question that viewpoint's willingness to allow ANY kind of police tactical units. Ah, hell... I'm not questioning it, I'm coming right out and saying it; those folks want all SWAT gone. What risk-benefit analysis has actually been done on the domestic deployment of SWAT-style units? I don't recall that the rates of murder and mayhem were markedly higher before the advent of SWAT, so the benefit seems questionable at best. The risks include not only homicide and mayhem and heavy-handed tactics, but the habituation of the public to the presence of military vehicles and people armed and dressed like soldiers in their midst. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:54:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I is totally against militarization of police!!! BTW, anybody got any deals on... level IV plates multicam carrier crye pants and shirts with salomon boots to match molle webbing multicam packs military clone weapons electronic ear pro with coms ballistic helmets breaching rounds multicam molle harness for my K9 NVG 5.56 brown tip anything multicam I need all this for range trips and SHTF. But I is totally against militarization of police!!!! You can't see that it is more acceptable for a private citizen to "militarize" than for a civilian government agency to do so? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:56:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Anybody got a link to the article debunking the CATO report?
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:56:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can't see that it is more acceptable for a private citizen to "militarize" than for a civilian government agency to do so? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I is totally against militarization of police!!! BTW, anybody got any deals on... level IV plates multicam carrier crye pants and shirts with salomon boots to match molle webbing multicam packs military clone weapons electronic ear pro with coms ballistic helmets breaching rounds multicam molle harness for my K9 NVG 5.56 brown tip anything multicam I need all this for range trips and SHTF. But I is totally against militarization of police!!!! You can't see that it is more acceptable for a private citizen to "militarize" than for a civilian government agency to do so? It used to be acceptable to beat your wife. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:56:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What risk-benefit analysis has actually been done on the domestic deployment of SWAT-style units? I don't recall that the rates of murder and mayhem were markedly higher before the advent of SWAT, so the benefit seems questionable at best. The risks include not only homicide and mayhem and heavy-handed tactics, but the habituation of the public to the presence of military vehicles and people armed and dressed like soldiers in their midst. The NTOA has pretty decent data on that. With critical incidents that involve SWAT teams, once SWAT is on the scene, the VAST majority are resolved without shots fired by the officers... and the stats aren't even close. It's in the neighborhood of 95% |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:57:02 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anybody got a link to the article debunking the CATO report? Article? We did our homework. There are links in the report and everything. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:58:29 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aimless hits the mark once again. All the arguments that people against the appearance of militarized police is shallow... Don't you think that has a tendancy to escalate things a little prematurely or unnecessarily? I'm going to react a lot different to a plain clothes detective or regular squad car than an MRAP with 12 tacticool guys parking on the lawn. The problem is every cop wants to believe they are special (it's no different in the military everyone wants to believe they are SF or Seals or whatever). So every department has decided to make themselves a cool guy club. We used to glamorize smart cops who could solve crimes (detectives). Now we glamorize paramilitary units that can outshoot a threat that largely doesn't exist. Personally, I'd prefer a cop that could figure out a way to get the day to day job done without all that crap. But I guess thinking is for faggots and it's way more fun to just intimidate the entire population into compliance. Time to get cops back on track. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Every pissant federal department does not need a SWAT team, and only have them for prestige. But once you have a SWAT team you have to use it, justified or not, or risk losing funding for a SWAT team that spends a million dollars a year on salary, ammo and training and spends all their non training time sitting around the cafeteria at the federal building playing hearts in their 5.11s. Aimless hits the mark once again. All the arguments that people against the appearance of militarized police is shallow... Don't you think that has a tendancy to escalate things a little prematurely or unnecessarily? I'm going to react a lot different to a plain clothes detective or regular squad car than an MRAP with 12 tacticool guys parking on the lawn. The problem is every cop wants to believe they are special (it's no different in the military everyone wants to believe they are SF or Seals or whatever). So every department has decided to make themselves a cool guy club. We used to glamorize smart cops who could solve crimes (detectives). Now we glamorize paramilitary units that can outshoot a threat that largely doesn't exist. Personally, I'd prefer a cop that could figure out a way to get the day to day job done without all that crap. But I guess thinking is for faggots and it's way more fun to just intimidate the entire population into compliance. Time to get cops back on track. Since a Aimless won't can you show me where all these listed SWAT teams exist and have performed raids? I don't disagree that society has changed the role of police/peace officers. I do disagree that gear forces peace officers into JBTs. I think police should have any and all means to protect life, theirs and all others. Way to much hyperbole and not enough facts. When the facts are presented they are ignored for CATO "studies" and second hand information. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 12:59:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The NTOA has pretty decent data on that. With critical incidents that involve SWAT teams, once SWAT is on the scene, the VAST majority are resolved without shots fired by the officers... and the stats aren't even close. It's in the neighborhood of 95% Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What risk-benefit analysis has actually been done on the domestic deployment of SWAT-style units? I don't recall that the rates of murder and mayhem were markedly higher before the advent of SWAT, so the benefit seems questionable at best. The risks include not only homicide and mayhem and heavy-handed tactics, but the habituation of the public to the presence of military vehicles and people armed and dressed like soldiers in their midst. The NTOA has pretty decent data on that. With critical incidents that involve SWAT teams, once SWAT is on the scene, the VAST majority are resolved without shots fired by the officers... and the stats aren't even close. It's in the neighborhood of 95% Which is how much better than the "no shots fired" record of LE pre-SWAT and non-SWAT? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:01:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anybody got a link to the article debunking the CATO report? Read each case/raid then go back and read the CATO versions. Pretty simple. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:01:44 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which is how much better than the "no shots fired" record of LE pre-SWAT and non-SWAT? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What risk-benefit analysis has actually been done on the domestic deployment of SWAT-style units? I don't recall that the rates of murder and mayhem were markedly higher before the advent of SWAT, so the benefit seems questionable at best. The risks include not only homicide and mayhem and heavy-handed tactics, but the habituation of the public to the presence of military vehicles and people armed and dressed like soldiers in their midst. The NTOA has pretty decent data on that. With critical incidents that involve SWAT teams, once SWAT is on the scene, the VAST majority are resolved without shots fired by the officers... and the stats aren't even close. It's in the neighborhood of 95% Which is how much better than the "no shots fired" record of LE pre-SWAT and non-SWAT? Are you positing that police shot/beat/whatever people LESS in the pre-SWAT days? The data shows that SWAT teams aren't simply a bunch of trigger-happy rednecks with guns. The bulk of the time it's a peaceful resolution. How is this bad? ETA: if you're arguing that there is no "control" in this case-control study model, you're probably correct. But given the massive change in our society, as well as multiple paradigm shifts in our models of policing in the last 30-40 years, I don't know how anyone could make the case that confounding variables had been removed. Frankly, I don't know if such a study could even be possible, or be done with any credibility. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:01:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It used to be acceptable to beat your wife. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I is totally against militarization of police!!! BTW, anybody got any deals on... level IV plates multicam carrier crye pants and shirts with salomon boots to match molle webbing multicam packs military clone weapons electronic ear pro with coms ballistic helmets breaching rounds multicam molle harness for my K9 NVG 5.56 brown tip anything multicam I need all this for range trips and SHTF. But I is totally against militarization of police!!!! You can't see that it is more acceptable for a private citizen to "militarize" than for a civilian government agency to do so? It used to be acceptable to beat your wife. Aww the good ole days of the rule of the thumb. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:03:43 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you positing that police shot/beat/whatever people LESS in the pre-SWAT days? The data shows that SWAT teams aren't simply a bunch of trigger-happy rednecks with guns. The bulk of the time it's a peaceful resolution. How is this bad? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What risk-benefit analysis has actually been done on the domestic deployment of SWAT-style units? I don't recall that the rates of murder and mayhem were markedly higher before the advent of SWAT, so the benefit seems questionable at best. The risks include not only homicide and mayhem and heavy-handed tactics, but the habituation of the public to the presence of military vehicles and people armed and dressed like soldiers in their midst. The NTOA has pretty decent data on that. With critical incidents that involve SWAT teams, once SWAT is on the scene, the VAST majority are resolved without shots fired by the officers... and the stats aren't even close. It's in the neighborhood of 95% Which is how much better than the "no shots fired" record of LE pre-SWAT and non-SWAT? Are you positing that police shot/beat/whatever people LESS in the pre-SWAT days? The data shows that SWAT teams aren't simply a bunch of trigger-happy rednecks with guns. The bulk of the time it's a peaceful resolution. How is this bad? They look scary. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:06:52 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You don't just "throw together" a SWAT team Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
]My county doesn't have a SWAT team either. If one is needed, there are enough deputies to throw one together between my county and the one to the north. . You don't just "throw together" a SWAT team I think that's what they do in Albuquerque. Then they find a need to shoot a retard.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:12:40 PM EDT
[#44]
In 20 - 25 years, anyone seen with a firearm will be fair game for law enforcement, at the rate we are going in certain states, and most federal agencies.
"Officer safety, don't you see ... he was a threat." (If it even takes that long.) |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:17:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you positing that police shot/beat/whatever people LESS in the pre-SWAT days? The data shows that SWAT teams aren't simply a bunch of trigger-happy rednecks with guns. The bulk of the time it's a peaceful resolution. How is this bad? ETA: if you're arguing that there is no "control" in this case-control study model, you're probably correct. But given the massive change in our society, as well as multiple paradigm shifts in our models of policing in the last 30-40 years, I don't know how anyone could make the case that confounding variables had been removed. Frankly, I don't know if such a study could even be possible, or be done with any credibility. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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What risk-benefit analysis has actually been done on the domestic deployment of SWAT-style units? I don't recall that the rates of murder and mayhem were markedly higher before the advent of SWAT, so the benefit seems questionable at best. The risks include not only homicide and mayhem and heavy-handed tactics, but the habituation of the public to the presence of military vehicles and people armed and dressed like soldiers in their midst. The NTOA has pretty decent data on that. With critical incidents that involve SWAT teams, once SWAT is on the scene, the VAST majority are resolved without shots fired by the officers... and the stats aren't even close. It's in the neighborhood of 95% Which is how much better than the "no shots fired" record of LE pre-SWAT and non-SWAT? Are you positing that police shot/beat/whatever people LESS in the pre-SWAT days? The data shows that SWAT teams aren't simply a bunch of trigger-happy rednecks with guns. The bulk of the time it's a peaceful resolution. How is this bad? ETA: if you're arguing that there is no "control" in this case-control study model, you're probably correct. But given the massive change in our society, as well as multiple paradigm shifts in our models of policing in the last 30-40 years, I don't know how anyone could make the case that confounding variables had been removed. Frankly, I don't know if such a study could even be possible, or be done with any credibility. The vast majority of all police incidents have peaceful resolutions. I don't think it can be said with any certainty that SWAT is an answer to a real problem not answered by non-SWAT LE in pre-SWAT days or answerable by them now. For example, what's a critical incident involving SWAT? Is that every SWAT callout including (as is the case in some jurisdictions) routine SW execution? Is there a measurable improvement in the outcomes of hostage situations over pre-SWAT outcomes? How much of what SWAT actually does could not be done by well-trained non-SWAT LE? |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:20:51 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think it can be said with any certainty that SWAT is an answer to a real problem not answered by non-SWAT LE in pre-SWAT days or answerable by them now. For example, what's a critical incident involving SWAT? Is that every SWAT callout including (as is the case in some jurisdictions) routine SW execution? Is there a measurable improvement in the outcomes of hostage situations over pre-SWAT outcomes? How much of what SWAT actually does could not be done by well-trained non-SWAT LE? It's not hard. We get a call about a dude with a hunting rifle who wants to go out in a blaze of glory. <---- this guy is not equipped to deal with it. SWAT shows up, and dude is in over his head, realizes it, and it ends peacefully. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:24:38 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:25:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah but Dept of Education? That has even me thinking the Feds are is trying to find more ways to onboard brownshirts... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. No idea why the fuck those clowns need a SWAT team. |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:25:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do they actually train together or is it some agreement to send personnel if requested? That's not a tactical team Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The only tactical team that the county I live in is a part of is a mutual aid agreement between two counties, and it's rarely if ever utilized. Do they actually train together or is it some agreement to send personnel if requested? That's not a tactical team |
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Posted: 4/18/2014 1:28:05 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More using Radley Balko as a source. Kind of like going Michael Bloomberg on gun issues. Yeah I quit reading after "tank" |
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