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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:47:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will be interesting to see the rationale the ATF uses to justify the Sig barrel being called a silencer, when it is effectively no different than this being pinned on the barrel. http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/870/870752.jpg Just longer and wider, at which point it arbitrarily turns into a baffle stack instead of a brake. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. It will be interesting to see the rationale the ATF uses to justify the Sig barrel being called a silencer, when it is effectively no different than this being pinned on the barrel. http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/870/870752.jpg Just longer and wider, at which point it arbitrarily turns into a baffle stack instead of a brake. It's designed to be a mount for a suppressor. Sig's "brake" is designed to be a baffle stack. I know we all hate the ATF and they suck, but let's be realistic. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:48:06 PM EDT
[#2]
Don't muzzle breaks make things MUCH LOUDER typically? This looks like a hard sell for the ATF...provided a non-biased and competent judge/jury.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:48:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise?
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:48:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. The ATF and the .gov in general have made it clear that they will not be hoisted on their own petard. That the tube has been declared the receiver and is thus the serialized part doesnt matter to them anymore than the fact you can't fire more than one round at a time simply because you posses FA parts, or that you havent actually installed the short barrel on your AR or stock on your glock. They very much want to ban anything that even could be assembled in a configuration deemed illegal, partially to make their job easier (so they dont have to actually catch people breaking a stupid law) and partially to allow them to punish the ignorant when ever they deem necessary, not to mention keep NFA as difficult as possible to dissuade people from owning them but that's a story for another day. This is just an extension of the "thinking" behind constructive intent doctrine combined with stupid laws and just as importantly stupid rulings in the past. In this case the ATF declared the tube the serialized part. As time went on people just started buying the baffles as kits since it's not like tubes with threads are high tech. The ATF realized this and started to shut that down in the 90s with further rulings. Now they have been backed into a corner by all of their stupid rulings going after new stuff, but I dont think that they are going to allow little things like constitutionality or logical consistency to stop them from continuing their war on guns. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:49:06 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise? If anything, it should make it louder. 
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:49:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, SIG has significant money. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Will Sig be the next Ares? No, SIG has significant money. SIG, you've got a lot of nice .gov contracts-be a shame if anything happened to them. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:49:38 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If anything, it should make it louder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise? If anything, it should make it louder. Hopefully it does. I honestly have no idea what that would do to the sound. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:50:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Well, fuck.
Now I have to buy Sigs again. The Arm-brace-sbr thing got me to take notice of them again. This puts them firmly in the "MUST BUY NOW" column. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:50:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't someone post in the Sig Arm Brace thread say the only reason the ATF approved it was because the .gov didn't want to go up against Sig? what's so special about sig? i don't think us gov would give a damn if atf gets pissed, it can kill the brace too 
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:50:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's designed to be a mount for a suppressor. Sig's "brake" is designed to be a baffle stack. I know we all hate the ATF and they suck, but let's be realistic. So is the Sig barrel. It still requires an endcap and sleeve to function. ATF doesn't like the Sig version just because anyone with basic machineshop skills could make the sleeve and endcap(the actual silencer parts). If I welded an endcap on this 
and put it on the "suppressor mount" wouldn't that effectively be the same? It would totally suck as a silencer, but it's the same setup essentially. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:51:40 PM EDT
[#11]
i never owned a sig but now i will just on G.P.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:51:43 PM EDT
[#12]
Loving it. Sig is trolling, and hard.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:51:43 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Sig likes to fight the Feds! Time for another Sig This is not new. 
http://www.shotgunnews.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/12/files/sig-sauer-m1911-spartan-review/sig-sauer-m1911-spartan_003.jpg I'd love to have one of those. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:52:03 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise? With the sleeve on, it seems to work well http://vimeo.com/57191957 |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:53:32 PM EDT
[#15]
I have one Sig.
I think I'll get a second.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:53:32 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." I LOL'd hard |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:54:36 PM EDT
[#17]
Looks like my next toy will be a Sig....
Might even be one of these.... I was debating between it and an M4 version of a PCC... |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:55:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." Yeah, no kidding. I'm of a mind to purchase SOMETHING they make just to support their effort. 
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:55:45 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Should we expect a "my bad" from the ATF or a "we're the government and we say so" response? Quote HistoryQuoted:
ATF Director B. Todd Jones is named as defendant in Sig's lawsuit and has 21 days, after being served, to respond to the civil action, dated April 7. Should we expect a "my bad" from the ATF or a "we're the government and we say so" response? I'd expect an appeal until they get it in front of the "right" judge. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:55:48 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." If a gun company made that its motto, I would buy all their shit. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:56:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a gun company made that its motto, I would buy all their shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." If a gun company made that its motto, I would buy all their shit. Same here. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:57:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So which Sig Pistol do I buy to support them? |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:58:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will try to make my next gun purchase some sort of Sig. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:58:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a gun company made that its motto, I would buy all their shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." If a gun company made that its motto, I would buy all their shit. Yeah and you wouldn't be buying much of its stuff because it wouldn't be in business long. The ATF seems to act pretty childish when someone doesn't agree with it and is loud about it. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:58:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Are these things silencer parts or muzzle brakes?
Pic: http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/muzzledevicecompwithweight.jpg |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:58:51 PM EDT
[#26]
Why the butt-hurt? It's not like they called it a muzzle break.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:59:33 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully it does. I honestly have no idea what that would do to the sound. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise? If anything, it should make it louder. Hopefully it does. I honestly have no idea what that would do to the sound. From the article: In a Sept. 6, 2013 followup letter, Sig asked the federal regulatory agency for reconsideration, while reporting that sound meter testing proved the device amplified, not muffled sound, when a gun with it was fired. It also included evidence showing the device offsets and corrects recoil of a firearm when attached, Sig claims. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 4:59:36 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sig likes to fight the Feds! Time for another Sig This is not new. http://www.shotgunnews.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/12/files/sig-sauer-m1911-spartan-review/sig-sauer-m1911-spartan_003.jpg |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:00:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Why, oh why, do I have to be so short on cash when I have the sincerest desire for a new P226?
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:00:32 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes me want to buy more Sig products. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What happened at Sig? It's as if one day they had a meeting and said, "You know what? Fuck the ATF." Makes me want to buy more Sig products. I'm not a huge SIG fan (love the designs, don't fit me well), but this could change my mind. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:01:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why the butt-hurt? It's not like they called it a muzzle break. Not sure if serious. That is why they are suing. Because the ATF called their "muzzle brake" a suppressor. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:03:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Give them nothing and take from them, everything.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:04:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Go Sig! I love my P229 two tone...
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:06:19 PM EDT
[#34]
I think that it might be time to purchase a SIG product.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:06:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise? With the sleeve on, it seems to work well http://vimeo.com/57191957 It should, if that's what it's designed for. 
I just want to make sure there's no case the ATF could make of "it reduces noise level by 10 decibels, now you're gonna get raped." Edit: And Everest answered with good news. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:07:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It should, if that's what it's designed for.
I just want to make sure there's no case the ATF could make of "it reduces noise level by 10 decibels, now you're gonna get raped." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Does that baffle system have any real effect on noise? With the sleeve on, it seems to work well http://vimeo.com/57191957 It should, if that's what it's designed for.
I just want to make sure there's no case the ATF could make of "it reduces noise level by 10 decibels, now you're gonna get raped." Reducing noise by 10 decibels would actually be quite impressive (without the sleeve). Really impressive. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:07:42 PM EDT
[#37]
Well good on 'em.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:08:02 PM EDT
[#38]
Great comment: "Problem here is that any muzzle brake is designed to re-direct energy. Sound, is energy. So when it is re-directed, teh signature and intensity changes.
Our laws are not compatible with science or reason. They were made in teh 30's, increased in the 60's and 80's, without regard to facts, to play to an easily fooled base." |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:08:13 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a well-educated judge. Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a well-educated judge. http://www.guns.com/2014/03/27/makes-innovator-enterprises-v-atf-suppressor-case-interesting/ "imagine a device designed for the sole purpose of muffling all sound emitted by a gunshot, and that was 100 percent effective at doing so — in other words, the world’s greatest silencer. If this device relied on a novel or innovative design that did not contain many ‘physical characteristics’ that are ‘characteristics of known firearm silencers’ … the agency would apparently not classify it as a silencer — despite the fact that it eliminates all noise produced by a gunshot. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:08:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. With this and the arm brace, Sig is pushing the edge. On one hand its great because it exposes the idiocy of gun laws, on the other hand the current setup with SBR's / suppressors isnt terrible. (I'm saying this post form 4 wait) |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:11:32 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a suspicion something might be happening after this ruling for another muzzle device.
http://www.shootingwire.com/features/228649 Nice
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:11:47 PM EDT
[#42]
Fuck, yes. Go SIG.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:12:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to have to buy a Sig now. And I don't even like them because all their best guns aren't lefty friendly! As a lefty, the decocker is not hard to reach with your index finger when shooting left handed. Mag release is usually reversible, but I don't bother, index finger reaches that too. Good luck Sig! |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:12:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I might have to purchase a MPX now. this. hard earned money that one, but their fuck the ATF attitude isn't going unnoticed by me.. I'll be voting with my dollars.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:14:00 PM EDT
[#45]
If owning a baffle stack isn't a violation of the NFA rules then why can't I buy replacement wipes for my SWD m10 can?
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:14:11 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With this and the arm brace, Sig is pushing the edge. On one hand its great because it exposes the idiocy of gun laws, on the other hand the current setup with SBR's / suppressors isnt terrible. (I'm saying this post form 4 wait) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. With this and the arm brace, Sig is pushing the edge. On one hand its great because it exposes the idiocy of gun laws, on the other hand the current setup with SBR's / suppressors isnt terrible. (I'm saying this post form 4 wait) Speak for yourself. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:15:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it is this, then Sig might have one hell of a battle. 
http://twobirdsflyingpub.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/adam-painchaud-sig-sauer-mpx.jpg http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/448x299xP1210439-900x601.jpg.pagespeed.ic.gaZ0fTHlXw.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. If it is this, then Sig might have one hell of a battle.
http://twobirdsflyingpub.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/adam-painchaud-sig-sauer-mpx.jpg http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/448x299xP1210439-900x601.jpg.pagespeed.ic.gaZ0fTHlXw.jpg Why? Technically, it's as much a suppressor part as an AAC 18/51t muzzle brake. Good for Sig. |
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:17:34 PM EDT
[#48]
Sig is basing this on a ruling another device company got in court last month . The ATF was shown to use arbitrary testing for new items, specifically muzzle devices . They failed to use sound measuring equipment that the ATF has to see if it reduced sound , instead the ATF just said it had 3 things in common with a silencer and a judge smacked the ATF down .
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:17:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Speak for yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No pics of the disputed device in OP or link. Fail. It's a supressor baffle stack, without the external casing, permanently attached to the barrel. If you put a metal sleeve on it, it IS a supressor, but until you do (presumably on a NFA Form 1 if you wanted to), it's clearly not a supressor. With this and the arm brace, Sig is pushing the edge. On one hand its great because it exposes the idiocy of gun laws, on the other hand the current setup with SBR's / suppressors isnt terrible. (I'm saying this post form 4 wait) Speak for yourself. Seriously. I've been in the NFA game for years now and these wait times are fucking horrible. I had one of my earlier stamps come back in less than a month.
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Posted: 4/9/2014 5:18:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If owning a baffle stack isn't a violation of the NFA rules then why can't I buy replacement wipes for my SWD m10 can? Or keep oil filters and "solvent traps" around the house. Or have washers and steel wool in the same cardboard box! Stupid, capricious laws.. |
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