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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:45:51 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:45:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Thanks OP for the ATF link.
It might be worth stickying this for a few days, I would think. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:46:16 AM EDT
[#3]
cocksuckers
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:46:34 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was already fucked 
the what? Fabryka Bronie Radom what what what? The @#$%ing Bronies did this! 
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:46:36 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the soviets designed and intended 7n6 for pistols??? I don't fucking think so. ( Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the soviets designed and intended 7n6 for pistols??? I don't fucking think so. ( ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” (emphasis added) You're right, but that doesn't matter. They're gonna do whatever they want. And somebody at the BATF is getting a big attaboy from Zero for this. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:46:49 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ammo prices will rise, 5.45 firearms will decrease in price. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So what does this mean for prices of 5.45. They going to level out around 7.62x39? Ammo prices will rise, 5.45 firearms will decrease in price. Eh.. Or people wont give a fuck. Most people i know run 7.62x39 I could ask 100 people in North Carolina what an AK74 is and 96 of them will try to correct me and tell me im talking about an AK47 |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:47:02 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:47:14 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What really makes this stupid is that any bottlenecked rifle ammo will zip right through a cop vest, even out of a pistol. Given the fact that the law was written as the result of hysteria and not because of some real problem, one should not expect it to have some connection with reality. In fact, its best if one NEVER expects a connection between the products of Congress and reality. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:47:25 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly, it's a fair reading of the statute. A bullshit statute to be sure, but...any honest reading of the GCA would lead you to the same conclusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? And to go after the section they used against us: a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or There is a hell of a lot more than a trace of lead in the core here. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:47:45 AM EDT
[#10]
Dumb.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:48:04 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what does this mean for prices of 5.45. They going to level out around 7.62x39? Eventually, yes. 5.45 will probably end up being a little higher, just because there are so many more 7.62x39 guns. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:48:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly, it's a fair reading of the statute. A bullshit statute to be sure, but...any honest reading of the GCA would lead you to the same conclusion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:49:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:49:27 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OR. Boolean OR. Read i), right before it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? Go back and read the edit. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:50:00 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You misunderstood me. M855 and M2 AP are legally EXEMPT from ever being classified as armor piercing by BATFE. The same law that came up with this bullshit made those two off limits. Yes, M2 AP (ARMOR PIERCING) is legally exempt from being classified as ARMOR PIERCING by BATFE. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How is M855 ok but 7N6 isn't??  M855 (and M2 AP) is specifically exempt from the AP classification by law. So the 7N6 just uses more steel? Well that's stupid... You misunderstood me. M855 and M2 AP are legally EXEMPT from ever being classified as armor piercing by BATFE. The same law that came up with this bullshit made those two off limits. Yes, M2 AP (ARMOR PIERCING) is legally exempt from being classified as ARMOR PIERCING by BATFE.
What was the reasoning for that? Just so people would vote for a bullshit law? |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:50:10 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:50:10 AM EDT
[#17]
So the way I read this, it really had nothing to do with a pistol being imported or converted or manufactured.
It has everything to do with an anti-gun politician pulling the strings of a local customs office to "inquire" about this round. Or am I missing something here? If I am right, we can brace ourselves now on 54r, it will be next without a question. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:50:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Someone call the NAACP
I feel this ruling is racist.. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:50:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Soooo... Does that mean PTR screwed 7.62x51 surplus imports, too? http://www.slickguns.com/sites/default/files/PTR915300Pr1.jpg No, I think it was some bolt action match pistol. X100 maybe? |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:50:43 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OR. Boolean OR. Read i), right before it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:51:05 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What was the reasoning for that? Just so people would vote for a bullshit law? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How is M855 ok but 7N6 isn't?? M855 (and M2 AP) is specifically exempt from the AP classification by law. So the 7N6 just uses more steel? Well that's stupid... You misunderstood me. M855 and M2 AP are legally EXEMPT from ever being classified as armor piercing by BATFE. The same law that came up with this bullshit made those two off limits. Yes, M2 AP (ARMOR PIERCING) is legally exempt from being classified as ARMOR PIERCING by BATFE.
What was the reasoning for that? Just so people would vote for a bullshit law? My guess is it was because Uncle Sam used to sell off his surplus ammo and didn't want to legislate himself out of a market. Not so much anymore. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:51:58 AM EDT
[#22]
Looks like they were digging to find something to ban and they found it. Fucking shit stains.
I sincerely hope if and when we take over congress, we can pressure them to fix that bullshit legislation. I doubt it, though. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:52:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? And to go after the section they used against us: a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or There is a hell of a lot more than a trace of lead in the core here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? And to go after the section they used against us: a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or There is a hell of a lot more than a trace of lead in the core here. The dispute is over what makes up the "core" of the bullet. You think it's one thing, everything inside the jacket. They determined it's another, the steel insert. The determination is exactly the same as the one made years ago concerning M43. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:53:15 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the way I read this, it really had nothing to do with a pistol being imported or converted or manufactured. It has everything to do with an anti-gun politician pulling the strings of a local customs office to "inquire" about this round. Or am I missing something here? Well its time for all these 2A org to earn their coin... The NRA called me today to renew my membership and i told the rep on my phone i will ensure everyone i come in contact with knows the NRA is bullshit if they didnt do somthing about this particular situation.. i feel bad because the girl probably had no idea what i was talking about 
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:54:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't need to be designed for use in a handgun, per the statute. Read the whole thing, not just the part that confirms your bias. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. eggzactaly! thats why barnes had to pull all the brass non HP bullets that make in .224 and 30 cal last year. HP is OK non HP is AP. Since there are now handguns that shoot both .224 and 30 cal.. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:54:20 AM EDT
[#26]
Quick question for our legal eagle types:
1. FFLs cannot legally sell AP handgun ammo to civilians. 2. BATFE just ruled 5.45x39 7n6 is handgun AP ammo 3. What happens to the FFLs that still have this in stock and are still selling it?? |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:54:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OR. Boolean OR. Read i), right before it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? Or doesn't matter here. They banned it based on the second part, being "designed and intended for a pistol" |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:56:06 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't need to be designed for use in a handgun, per the statute. Read the whole thing, not just the part that confirms your bias. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. I'm not biased...I actually read the statement wrong and thought they were using the second part of the definition. They're using the first part, and its still bullshit because it doesn't meet that part of the definition either. The projectile/core is NOT constructed entirely of the materials listed. So again, it doesn't match the definition. Doesn't matter. They're going to do what they want either way. And most people, including most gun owners, won't care. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:56:38 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Or doesn't matter here. They banned it based on the second part, being "designed and intended for a pistol" |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:56:46 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone call the NAACP I feel this ruling is racist.. I've actually been calling for a challenge playing the race card. Banning cheap ammo would have a disparate impact on poor people from exercising their second amendment rights, since African Americans and Hispanics make up the majority of the poor. I've sold piles of AK-74 mags to Hispanic Americans. 
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:57:06 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks like they were digging to find something to ban and they found it. Fucking shit stains. I sincerely hope if and when we take over congress, we can pressure them to fix that bullshit legislation. I doubt it, though. LOL |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:57:31 AM EDT
[#32]
READING IS FUNDAMENTAL
When ATF tested the 7N6 samples provided by CBP, they were found to contain a steel core. 22 caliber, 21 caliber or 50 caliber means abso-fucking-lutely zero. They determined it has a steel core. End of story unless and until a court overturns the determination under the applicable standard of review. What we need to be doing is setting the NRA to work to amend the statute, or file a lawsuit to overturn the determination. Wailing about it ain't gonna help. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:58:08 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quick question for our legal eagle types: 1. FFLs cannot legally sell AP handgun ammo to civilians. 2. BATFE just ruled 5.45x39 7n6 is handgun AP ammo 3. What happens to the FFLs that still have this in stock and are still selling it?? ya don't sell it.. you use it as test rounds.. Or transfer to a type 9 FFL. you be trolling now, bro.. 
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:58:30 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The dispute is over what makes up the "core" of the bullet. You think it's one thing, everything inside the jacket. They determined it's another, the steel insert. The determination is exactly the same as the one made years ago concerning M43. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! Really? ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.” Was the 5.45x39mm 7n6 designed and intended for use in a handgun, or did someone design a handgun to make use of this rifle ammo? And to go after the section they used against us: a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or There is a hell of a lot more than a trace of lead in the core here. The dispute is over what makes up the "core" of the bullet. You think it's one thing, everything inside the jacket. They determined it's another, the steel insert. The determination is exactly the same as the one made years ago concerning M43. I guess they are going to argue the lead is part of the jacket and not the core somehow. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:58:48 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No they didn't. They banned it on account of the first part. They even said so. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Or doesn't matter here. They banned it based on the second part, being "designed and intended for a pistol" Yep, this is correct. Accordingly, the ammunition is “armor piercing” under the section 921(a)(17)(B)(i) and is therefore not importable. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:59:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ya don't sell it.. you use it as test rounds.. Or transfer to a type 9 FFL. you be trolling now, bro.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quick question for our legal eagle types: 1. FFLs cannot legally sell AP handgun ammo to civilians. 2. BATFE just ruled 5.45x39 7n6 is handgun AP ammo 3. What happens to the FFLs that still have this in stock and are still selling it?? ya don't sell it.. you use it as test rounds.. Or transfer to a type 9 FFL. you be trolling now, bro.. Not trolling, just curious as AIM was smart enough to blow this out the door before the ruling came down, but a few other retailers bought up their supply (~400 cans) and tried to flip it for a huge profit. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:59:07 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
eggzactaly! thats why barnes had to pull all the brass non HP bullets that make in .224 and 30 cal last year. HP is OK non HP is AP. Since there are now handguns that shoot both .224 and 30 cal.. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
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It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. eggzactaly! thats why barnes had to pull all the brass non HP bullets that make in .224 and 30 cal last year. HP is OK non HP is AP. Since there are now handguns that shoot both .224 and 30 cal.. I had wondered how they treated solids. If they pushed a lead free ban through it would make everything AP. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 7:59:10 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've actually been calling for a challenge playing the race card. Banning cheap ammo would have a disparate impact on poor people from exercising their second amendment rights, since African Americans and Hispanics make up the majority of the poor. I've sold piles of AK-74 mags to Hispanic Americans. http://www.conservativefiringline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Jesse-Jackson-RaceCard.jpeg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Someone call the NAACP I feel this ruling is racist.. I've actually been calling for a challenge playing the race card. Banning cheap ammo would have a disparate impact on poor people from exercising their second amendment rights, since African Americans and Hispanics make up the majority of the poor. I've sold piles of AK-74 mags to Hispanic Americans. http://www.conservativefiringline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Jesse-Jackson-RaceCard.jpeg I am a broke veteran in college.. Now i cant defend myself as i lost all my other stuff in a parachuting accident.. All i have is my Bulgy AK74.. How the FUCK am i gonna EAT NOW! - Veteran Racisim!!! ETA im also part Cherokee.. Lawsuit inbound |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:00:06 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had wondered how they treated solids. If they pushed a lead free ban through it would make everything AP. Quote HistoryQuoted: If they pushed a lead free ban through it would make everything AP. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:00:59 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess they are going to argue the lead is part of the jacket and not the core somehow. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile steel jacket, steel core. jacket has copper wash.. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:01:17 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm not biased...I actually read the statement wrong and thought they were using the second part of the definition. They're using the first part, and its still bullshit because it doesn't meet that part of the definition either. The projectile/core is NOT constructed entirely of the materials listed. So again, it doesn't match the definition. Doesn't matter. They're going to do what they want either way. And most people, including most gun owners, won't care. I don't think it's too out of line to look at the bullet design, and say "Umm...the core is solid steel". Look, I hate the law, I'd repeal it yesterday, and I'll even say it's poorly written, but it's an honest interpretation of it. Stevie Wonder saw this coming.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:01:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: wolf will just make lead core 5.45 They already do.
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:03:05 AM EDT
[#43]
fucked.
This is honestly a huge blow to my shooting. I always knew the day could come but loved my '74s and 5.45 ARs more than any other guns, so I have maybe a couple more in that caliber than was maybe reasonable. So ammo will skyrocket and the guns that shoot it will plummet in value. With .22 being non existent, decent 556 about the same cost as crappy 308, I just dont see much fun in shooting right now when it costs so much and is looked down upon so heavily. maybe its time to thin the herd and get back into hot rods but then gas isnt any cheaper... |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:03:38 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or doesn't matter here. They banned it based on the second part, being "designed and intended for a pistol" Go back and read the notice again. The determination is based on the FIRST subparagraph, which doesn't contain the words "designed" or "intended". |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:03:54 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: eggzactaly! thats why barnes had to pull all the brass non HP bullets that make in .224 and 30 cal last year. HP is OK non HP is AP. Since there are now handguns that shoot both .224 and 30 cal.. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's beyond insanity that a bureau can make calls such as this. Fuck you, ATF! No. It's a bullshit reading. The ammo was NOT designed to be used in a handgun. The opposite is true. eggzactaly! thats why barnes had to pull all the brass non HP bullets that make in .224 and 30 cal last year. HP is OK non HP is AP. Since there are now handguns that shoot both .224 and 30 cal.. My understanding was that there wasn't yet a final determination about the Barnes solids. Has that changed?
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:03:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not trolling, just curious as AIM was smart enough to blow this out the door before the ruling came down, but a few other retailers bought up their supply (~400 cans) and tried to flip it for a huge profit. Wanna bet all that stuff was "transferred" to non-FFL holders (like their wife) prior to the determination, and they have notarized bills of sale to prove it? Cash transaction too, probably for exactly what they paid for it. No tax due that way since it's a wash............ 
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:05:01 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had wondered how they treated solids. If they pushed a lead free ban through it would make everything AP. no, because the lead free stuff is usually sintered metal and not a solid. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:06:07 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: no, because the lead free stuff is usually sintered metal and not a solid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had wondered how they treated solids. If they pushed a lead free ban through it would make everything AP. no, because the lead free stuff is usually sintered metal and not a solid. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:06:37 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I guess they are going to argue the lead is part of the jacket and not the core somehow. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Unfortunately, the courts give a great deal of deference to administrative agencies when determinations such as this are challenged. Anyone making the argument that BATFE is wrong will have a difficult time. |
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Posted: 4/8/2014 8:08:01 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My understanding was that there wasn't yet a final determination about the Barnes solids. Has that changed? ya i saw it late last year.. If i get some time i can dig for it later today.. Its funny, copper solid is ok, but brass is not.. lulz.. |
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