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saigamanTX
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Posted: 3/16/2014 5:50:00 AM
Thy songs were made for the pure and free
And shall never sound in slavery!"
Bohr_Adam
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:00:07 AM


Yeah, they've been asking. We've been hemming and hawing.
That there were multiple people posting under snowleopard's account is a definite. Whether or not those people all inhabited the same body is open to conjecture.
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stevem1a
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:10:11 AM
If Russia attacked they would just be speed bumps and a trip wire.
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality, but in reality, there is.
Agent_Funky
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:13:42 AM
[Last Edit: 3/16/2014 6:13:55 AM by Agent_Funky]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


Yeah, they've been asking. We've been hemming and hawing.



This should help speed the decision up:

Join the British Sarcasm Society (Yeah….. like we need more members…..)

Proud Member - Team Ranstad

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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:31:05 AM
Shouldn't be a big deal other than for convenience. Did training with polish soldiers in hohenfels for pre-deployment training .
fisherman
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:34:21 AM
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No.
raven
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:35:09 AM
We should give them nukes and anti ballistic missile defenses. Well they had the defenses until Obama stripped them from Eastern Europe because they were provocative and unnecessary.
Ain't it odd that a house of god could be a facade for death squads and jihad?
Master_of_Orion
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:36:00 AM
Ok.

I'm inclined to let them... also that missile defense system.... they can have that too...
"Never attribute to malice that which can be ascribed to sheer stupidity." LTC (CENTCOM)

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DDalton
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:31:47 AM
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.
Nagewaza624
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:37:34 AM
Once Putin has secured the Ukraine. Romania and Poland are next.


Don't worry though, our POTUS will be right on it right after his next round of golf.




A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Bohr_Adam
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:42:11 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!
That there were multiple people posting under snowleopard's account is a definite. Whether or not those people all inhabited the same body is open to conjecture.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:50:20 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Nagewaza624:
Once Putin has secured the Ukraine. The baltic states are next.


Don't worry though, our POTUS will be right on it right after his next round of golf.






FIFY

There's major tension between them and Russia since their independence.
"Anytime a liberal mentions fairness, you can be assured they want something that belongs to someone else." Calgood
DDalton
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:52:48 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!


Bonjour.
NRA2
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:53:14 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Nagewaza624:
Once Putin has secured the Ukraine. Romania and Poland are next.


Don't worry though, our POTUS will be right on it right after his next round of golf.







Just heard on Fox News radio that some of Putin's troops have moved into another town..............
armoredsaint
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:53:55 AM
Obummer won't do it - he's busy play basketball and riding his bicycle
كافر
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Bohr_Adam
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:57:35 AM
[Last Edit: 3/16/2014 7:58:58 AM by Bohr_Adam]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DDalton:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!


Bonjour.


If you haven't learned the difference between random blogs or "news" sites pandering to derpers, and Ministry of Defense Websites, NATO websites (not available now, I admit), established and respected journalism websites - including many devoted to defense topics, etc., then why would you think you could asses the value of a random post in GD?

But, FWIW, Poland pulls its weight, has been upping its budget,and has in serious talks about developing a domestic Ballistic Missile Defense system (got tired of depending on the US) for some time.
That there were multiple people posting under snowleopard's account is a definite. Whether or not those people all inhabited the same body is open to conjecture.
- Mech2007
beardog30
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:05:44 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By fisherman:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No.

Treaties, how do they work?
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
Mark Twain
FightingHellfish
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:11:48 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!


Bonjour.


If you haven't learned the difference between random blogs or "news" sites pandering to derpers, and Ministry of Defense Websites, NATO websites (not available now, I admit), established and respected journalism websites - including many devoted to defense topics, etc., then why would you think you could asses the value of a random post in GD?

But, FWIW, Poland pulls its weight, has been upping its budget,and has in serious talks about developing a domestic Ballistic Missile Defense system (got tired of depending on the US) for some time.


Poland also sent troops to US led ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Poles are strong US allies.
Infantry26
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:13:52 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By stevem1a:
If Russia attacked they would just be speed bumps and a trip wire.

Much like the troops in South Korea, they're not there to turn the tide (only 1 Brigade there for example), they are there so that before a shooting war starts the enemy has to decide "is it worth it to engage US troops..will they flash-fry my country ?
LightningII
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:14:26 AM
yeah, because Obama is totally going to put troops in Poland after he pussied out and cancelled the missile defense we promised them. "Reset", anyone?
He still thinks he can talk to Putin and make him our buddy who wants to do the "right thing".

Infantry26
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:15:54 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!


Bonjour.


If you haven't learned the difference between random blogs or "news" sites pandering to derpers, and Ministry of Defense Websites, NATO websites (not available now, I admit), established and respected journalism websites - including many devoted to defense topics, etc., then why would you think you could asses the value of a random post in GD?

But, FWIW, Poland pulls its weight, has been upping its budget,and has in serious talks about developing a domestic Ballistic Missile Defense system (got tired of depending on the US) for some time.


Poland also sent troops to US led ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Poles are strong US allies.


This. I'd much rather actively take the side of nations that have sacrificed for us. By most accounts the eastern european troops fight in places like Afghanistan. They don't just warm a cot and consume 3 hots.
Sylvan
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:19:45 AM
no.
they want a strong US expeditionary capability that will come in and eject the Russians after they invade and build up their A2/AD capabilities.

and, fortunately for them, thats exactly what we will be prepared to do in 2025.
JRCmx
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:20:55 AM
[Last Edit: 3/16/2014 8:28:11 AM by JRCmx]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No.

Treaties, how do they work?



Russia knows, they had a non-aggression treaty with Nazi Germany back in the day. How did that work?
They made one with the Brits too.
Treaties are worth jack if one side thinks the other is a pushover.
Like how Barry is making us look on the world stage.
Infantry26
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:24:00 AM
Losses in Iraq in descending order:

USA, UK, Italy, Poland, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Spain, Denmark, Georgia, El Salvador, Slovakia, Romania, Latvia, Estonia, Australia, Netherlands, Thailand, Hungary, Czech Republic, South Korea, Kazakhstan, Fiji.

Obviously Georgia and Kazackhstan were also under the Soviet/Russian thumb...
CAsoldier
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:28:14 AM
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.
4v50
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:29:27 AM
I think we're broke. No foreign entanglements.
governmentman
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:31:32 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


This. Want us to station troops to help your defense? Help with the bill.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
outofbattery
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:32:07 AM
I have ZERO faith in NATO or the United States. Treaties really don't mean anything,there are always weasel words and realpolitik.

Ukrainians thought that giving up their nukes would guarantee their soverignty Remember how the UN is supposed to react to genocide but doesn't have to do anything about "acts of genocide"? Same deal, Article V will be ignored if/when Putin needs to protect the Russians in Latvia or Estonia. Poland won't roll over and is taking their defense seriously. It'd be nice if the US would fork over some boneyard F-16s and/or F-18s to replace the old Sukhois but what they really need are AGM-158/Taurus/Storm Shadow missiles. Poland's main defense issue is that Russian and Belarusian S-400s have a range way into Polish territory and they need a way to snuff them. Another big issue is that the Russian reaction to withdrawing the idea of ballistic defense in Poland was to deploy Iskanders to Kaliningrad.They need missile defense themselves.





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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:37:36 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


This. Want us to station troops to help your defense? Help with the bill.



You do know Poles fought in Iraq and Afghanistan when the threat to Poland from Saddam or Al Qaeda was zero?

badgerdogz
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:38:35 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By 4v50:
I think we're broke. No foreign entanglements.


Poland fought alongside us in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are one of the few countries we should support with troops, because they supported us.
Sylvan
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:40:49 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas.
casey1
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:45:55 AM
I guarantee you Poland is on Putins list. I would ask for help too.
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hockeysew
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:46:37 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By raven:
We should give them nukes and anti ballistic missile defenses. Well they had the defenses until Obama stripped them from Eastern Europe because they were provocative and unnecessary.

ztug
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:48:04 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By armoredsaint:
Obummer won't do it - he's busy play basketball and riding his bicycle

He is such an embarrassment. How we end up with a community organizer from Chicago as President?........Oh, that's right ......Free Shit.
swede1986
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:48:40 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.




This has got to be a joke, right?
Väl formar den starke med svärdet sin värld,
Väl flyga som örnar hans rykten;
Men någon gång brytes det vandrande svärd
Och örnarna fällas i flykten.
outofbattery
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:09:39 AM




governmentman
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:21:01 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By outofbattery:
Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


This. Want us to station troops to help your defense? Help with the bill.



You do know Poles fought in Iraq and Afghanistan when the threat to Poland from Saddam or Al Qaeda was zero?



Yes, but I see that as more as rendering aide to an ally in a time of war rather than peacetime defense assistance and deterrence.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
audimurf
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:22:40 AM
[Last Edit: 3/16/2014 9:23:51 AM by audimurf]
Tell em to whip out their credit card!

ETA: should learn to read all posts.
Bohr_Adam
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:26:20 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By outofbattery:
Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


This. Want us to station troops to help your defense? Help with the bill.



You do know Poles fought in Iraq and Afghanistan when the threat to Poland from Saddam or Al Qaeda was zero?



Yes, but I see that as more as rendering aide to an ally in a time of war rather than peacetime defense assistance and deterrence.


If we don't start doing a better job with the latter, we just might find us stuck in a very expensive version of the former.
That there were multiple people posting under snowleopard's account is a definite. Whether or not those people all inhabited the same body is open to conjecture.
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Sylvan
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:31:16 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


If we don't start doing a better job with the latter, we just might find us stuck in a very expensive version of the former.

Isn't that the plan?
Be a shame to buy all those F22s and F35s and just replace them 40 years from now unused.

NATO? That old school.
We new school.
JIMBEAM
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:31:20 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


Yeah, they've been asking. We've been hemming and hawing.



This should help speed the decision up:

http://euro2012girls.com/pictures/best-polish-girls-euro08.jpg




Do you think they would take a 45 yo guy with no previous military experience?
"All compromise is based on give and take, but there can be no give and take on fundamentals. Any compromise on mere fundamentals is a surrender. For it is all give and no take." -Ghandi
CAJva
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:31:34 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By outofbattery:
Originally Posted By governmentman:
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


This. Want us to station troops to help your defense? Help with the bill.



You do know Poles fought in Iraq and Afghanistan when the threat to Poland from Saddam or Al Qaeda was zero?



Yes, but I see that as more as rendering aide to an ally in a time of war rather than peacetime defense assistance and deterrence.


And when Russian armor is crossing the Vistula, GD will say "it's too late for us to do anything, so no."
I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.
fisherman
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:19:17 AM
[Last Edit: 3/16/2014 10:25:46 AM by fisherman]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No.

Treaties, how do they work?

Please provide reference material indicating an absolute obligation to send people and other support just because they ask. Who is it that has attacked them again?


I'll be waiting patiently to see what you turn up.
CAsoldier
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:24:34 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas.

Fuck that. I need more ribbons for my ASUs.
bs295
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:30:40 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!


Bonjour.


If you haven't learned the difference between random blogs or "news" sites pandering to derpers, and Ministry of Defense Websites, NATO websites (not available now, I admit), established and respected journalism websites - including many devoted to defense topics, etc., then why would you think you could asses the value of a random post in GD?

But, FWIW, Poland pulls its weight, has been upping its budget,and has in serious talks about developing a domestic Ballistic Missile Defense system (got tired of depending on the US) for some time.


Poland also sent troops to US led ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Poles are strong US allies.


Out of the European countries we have relations with, Poles are one of the better countries to help out. The Polish SOF guys I worked with in AFG were good guys and not afraid to run and gun. They also hate Russia and had good "Polish Water"" to share. I'm all for putting troops there, they would appreciate it more than the other NATO countries.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:33:00 AM
And Obama will continue to not support key allies and further alienate them.

Making it impossible to conduct business on a global scale, just like it very nearly is now.
bulldog1967
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:35:13 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No.

Treaties, how do they work?


Maybe we should ask some of our former allies like Poland.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1601943_.html
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gaffney6
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:36:57 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By DDalton:
I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test.


If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn!


Bonjour.


If you haven't learned the difference between random blogs or "news" sites pandering to derpers, and Ministry of Defense Websites, NATO websites (not available now, I admit), established and respected journalism websites - including many devoted to defense topics, etc., then why would you think you could asses the value of a random post in GD?

But, FWIW, Poland pulls its weight, has been upping its budget,and has in serious talks about developing a domestic Ballistic Missile Defense system (got tired of depending on the US) for some time.


Poland also sent troops to US led ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Poles are strong US allies.
Couldn't agree more. They made the decision to join NATO and its a great country. Poland would make a great basing location, give us access to a new training area, and make Russia angry too. We could also help them out and give them a few more F-16s, older Perry class FFGs, and maybe help them get some more Leo IIs from Germany.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:37:41 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before.


you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas.

Cutting things to save money. Only ends up costing a lot more down the road to over come those strengths we allowed to become weaknesses.

So yeah. Spot on.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:39:24 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By fisherman:
Originally Posted By beardog30:
Originally Posted By fisherman:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No.

Treaties, how do they work?

Please provide reference material indicating an absolute obligation to send people and other support just because they ask.


I'll be waiting patiently to see what you turn up.


Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US.

Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion.
NUcadet07
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Posted: 3/16/2014 10:40:17 AM
Brits have been moving their forces out of German training areas for years and using Poland more and more due to the Polish government not putting all sorts of green regulations on the training areas. Pull out of Germany, shift those force to Poland where the women a re hotter and the people would better appreciate us being there while maintaining the same European presence.
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