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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:42:35 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. Fortunately, Putin thus far seems to know better. And, I think you spend too much time in GD to have a solid appreciation for most of the US government. An overt attack on a NATO ally will unleash the beast. Whether the American people continue to support its care and feeding afterward is a serious and legitimate question, however. Of course, part of the reason for this BS "non-invasion" might be to see how much BS the world will tolerate elsewhere. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:43:28 AM EDT
[#2]
As hesitant as I am to involve our military into different countries, I am still a realist and understand the fact that Russia is again a growing threat with expansionist "hey let's get the old band back together" ideas. Maybe it's time we shifted our assets in Western Europe to nations like Poland that would like to have our military assistance and be grateful for the umpteen Billions of dollars we would put into the local economy. Poland has a historical reason to both hate and fear Russians and Russian Expansionist zeal, and being one of the larger and potentially far wealthier Eastern European nations would prove to be a solid ally against a common threat. Poland has a rich history and culture that has always gravitated to the west rather than to the east, and in such their very cultural ideals line up more with our own than they do to their Eastern neighbors.
I would support this move. I say shifting our military bases from Germany to Poland, leaving core services in Germany intact until all services in Poland are up and running would be a great idea for building alliances in Eastern Europe and being able to project our force from a location that is essentially right outside the regional bully's back yard. Besides, can you only imagine some of the hot Polish girls the Soldiers will be able to find there? Poles are generally very Catholic and Conservative so it's like winning the ultimate woman lottery. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:43:48 AM EDT
[#3]
I agree we should as long as they give us daily shipments of perogies.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:45:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fortunately, Putin this far seems t know better. And, I think you spend too much time in GD to have a solid appreciation for most of the US government. An overt attack on a NATO ally will unleash the beast. Whether the American people continue to support its care and feeding afterward is a serious and legitimate question, however. Of course, part of the reason for this BS "non-invasion" might be to see how much BS the world will tolerate elsewhere. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. Fortunately, Putin this far seems t know better. And, I think you spend too much time in GD to have a solid appreciation for most of the US government. An overt attack on a NATO ally will unleash the beast. Whether the American people continue to support its care and feeding afterward is a serious and legitimate question, however. Of course, part of the reason for this BS "non-invasion" might be to see how much BS the world will tolerate elsewhere. We'll at the very least issue out Javs and such that would tear Russian armor the fuck up.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:48:53 AM EDT
[#5]
If we had a REAL leader, we'd immediately announcing putting Anti-ICBM sites into Poland and other Eastern Europe countries as a middle finger to Russia. And basically to send a message we aren't fucking around, and will defend our allies if attacked.
But sadly, our President grew up being taught about the "evils" of American militarism. So that'll never happen.  |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:49:07 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before. you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas. That worked well in 1938. If you act like a pussy you get your weekly swirly. If you're prepared to fight, the bullies leave you alone. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 6:49:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: FIFY There's major tension between them and Russia since their independence. 1015 |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:00:42 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Poland fought alongside us in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are one of the few countries we should support with troops, because they supported us. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think we're broke. No foreign entanglements. Poland fought alongside us in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are one of the few countries we should support with troops, because they supported us. I say pull out of Germany, move into Poland. Absolutely NO reason to be in Germany anymore. Many more reasons to be in Poland.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:01:39 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They can pay for the bill too. Maybe that's how we should fund the military, I feel like it's worked before. you know, if we deter war instead of fighting it, we could save money in other areas. Military adventurism. 
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:05:37 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No. Treaties, how do they work? Please provide reference material indicating an absolute obligation to send people and other support just because they ask. I'll be waiting patiently to see what you turn up. Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. Article 5 applies only when a member state is actually attacked,no?BTW based on the way we have reacted to Israel and now Ukraine I don't trust us either but there is a limit to the number of wars we can participate in at any given time. I do not know what that number is but the two we are currently fighting don't seem to producing all the results that might have been hoped for and opinions are mixed on what those objectives were in the first place. So tell me again who has been attacked and what our objectives are for the US military in this "conflict" in Poland. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:06:48 AM EDT
[#11]
I really don't think America/NATO would support a war if Putin decided to grab a chunk of Estonia,the chunk that would mean losing 85% of its energy and therefore no longer be a viable state.
I actually do understand that however. There are fewer than a million Estonians,once the Russian population is subtracted. Risk nuclear war for under a million people with an economy that's quite insignificant? No,that really wouldn't make sense. That was one of the reasons some in western Europe argued that the inclusion of the Baltics to NATO wasn't smart, that it cheapened the alliance and was antagonistic to Russia to boot. That's just the reality of being a tiny border nation. Yes,the threat of NATO intervention is a deterrent and cooperating in non-NATO missions such as currently being in Mali and the Central African Republic builds both operational experience and goodwill but I don't really expect quid pro quo. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:10:03 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm not worried at all, we have a community organizer in charge and he knows what he's doing. The man is the Messiah...................... now where's my free phone?
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:10:24 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just heard on Fox News radio that some of Putin's troops have moved into another town.............. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Once Putin has secured the Ukraine. Romania and Poland are next. Don't worry though, our POTUS will be right on it right after his next round of golf.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:10:50 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obummer won't do it - he's busy play basketball and riding his bicycle
PS: 50 Drill Sergeant! 
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:11:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I really don't think America/NATO would support a war if Putin decided to grab a chunk of Estonia,the chunk that would mean losing 85% of its energy and therefore no longer be a viable state. I actually do understand that however. There are fewer than a million Estonians,once the Russian population is subtracted. Risk nuclear war for under a million people with an economy that's quite insignificant? No,that really wouldn't make sense. That was one of the reasons some in western Europe argued that the inclusion of the Baltics to NATO wasn't smart, that it cheapened the alliance and was antagonistic to Russia to boot. That's just the reality of being a tiny border nation. Yes,the threat of NATO intervention is a deterrent and cooperating in non-NATO missions such as currently being in Mali and the Central African Republic builds both operational experience and goodwill but I don't really expect quid pro quo. Would Russia risk losing it's very survival for a few million people? I mean, the question goes both ways. Alot of Russian thinking does stem from "What will the Americans do?". Just as it was when the North Koreans told China and Russia they wanted to invade the South. The immediate question was, "what will the Americans do". And because Dean Acheson left Korea out of our declared sphere of influence, they agree America would do nothing. Which turned out dead wrong. But that's the point. We need to show we have a backbone and will defend our allies. In order to prevent Russia from trying to re-create a Soviet Empire. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:11:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just heard on Fox News radio that some of Putin's troops have moved into another town.............. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Once Putin has secured the Ukraine. Romania and Poland are next. Don't worry though, our POTUS will be right on it right after his next round of golf.
Just heard on Fox News radio that some of Putin's troops have moved into another town.............. They attempted a push towards Khersen (sp?) yesterday but were reportedly repulsed by Ukrainian troops (this was reported on France24). Khersen district is the source point for most of the energy and potable water flowing into the Crimea. It is strategically important for the Soviets... Russians to secure that area. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:11:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Dated a Polish chick while in college for about a year...I highly, HIGHLY recommend it. She was smoking hot and awesome in bed.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:12:30 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell em to whip out their credit card! EXACTLY.....WE TIRED OF PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S SECURITY so you want FREE SECURITY? Time to pay for it..... |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:14:06 AM EDT
[#19]
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:15:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Im a fan of poland butin this case... fuck um.
Bush pushed really hard for Georgia and Ukraine to be admitted into nato in 2007 and 2008 and most of NATO pushed back. It was if this whole scenario we are seeing now had been wargamed by some nerds deep in a pentagon basement and NATO membership was the only way to check russian adventurism. Now the very invasions the US predicted came to pass and all those countries that bent over for their cheap natual gas are shitting their pants. What good is having a friend who is a moron? |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:16:01 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
EXACTLY.....WE TIRED OF PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S SECURITY so you want FREE SECURITY? Time to pay for it..... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Tell em to whip out their credit card! EXACTLY.....WE TIRED OF PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S SECURITY so you want FREE SECURITY? Time to pay for it..... How much is Polish blood worth? |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:22:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Send then to Wildchicken for some training. They'll go home screaming about all the rain, snow, fog and every other weather conditions known to humankind before Lunch. Having BEEN there it will probably happen During Lunch. Weather conditions in Wildfleken were
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:26:17 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Couldn't agree more. They made the decision to join NATO and its a great country. Poland would make a great basing location, give us access to a new training area, and make Russia angry too. We could also help them out and give them a few more F-16s, older Perry class FFGs, and maybe help them get some more Leo IIs from Germany. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: believe.). Transfer the AEGIS BMD Tico's that we are going to retire to Poland and kill two birds with one stone. We would have to base some contractors there to help them maintain the ships.....and of course that means long term U.S. presence, and the Poles also get BMD.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:38:04 AM EDT
[#24]
Poland has been a friend of the US for a LONG time, going all the way back to the Revolutionary war. If they are asking us to base troops there, we should absolutely honor the request.
Besides, we can import all the hot Polish women folk 
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Posted: 3/16/2014 7:55:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pretty girls not withstanding.......No. Treaties, how do they work? Please provide reference material indicating an absolute obligation to send people and other support just because they ask. I'll be waiting patiently to see what you turn up. Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. You're not the only one, see Putin. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:05:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're not the only one, see Putin. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Pretty girls not withstanding.......No. Treaties, how do they work? Please provide reference material indicating an absolute obligation to send people and other support just because they ask. I'll be waiting patiently to see what you turn up. Article 5 of the NATO treaty...but I don't trust the US. Eastern Europeans dying for America's goals of ??? in Afghanistan are one thing but I have absolutely no faith that the US would protect the Baltics or Romania in event of a Russian invasion. You're not the only one, see Putin. I am convinced Estonia would have been invaded long ago had it not been for NATO. Putin still clearly sees NATO membership as a huge step that checks his revanchism. Georgia happened just after intense debates within NATO about offering Georgia a Mempership Action Plan. The invasion effectively put the issue on hold. This latest adventure also targeted a non-Aligned country, but one whose political evolution was potentially putting it in the directionof NATO. Putin is continuing to feel out NATO's resolve, but he has not yet shown any real desire to test it. He is in this for the long haul, and would prefer to strengthen his hand, and weaken ours, in the mean time. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:06:30 AM EDT
[#27]
I'm sure they do. They assume with American troops there putin won't hit them.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:07:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If Russia attacked they would just be speed bumps and a trip wire. The Poles have a very substantial and capable military.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:08:08 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Poland has been a friend of the US for a LONG time, going all the way back to the Revolutionary war. If they are asking us to base troops there, we should absolutely honor the request. Besides, we can import all the hot Polish women folk 100% correct. We should help: (1) true friends (2) people who appreciate it (3) people who can pull thier own weight, and more (4) and since I married a Polish woman and my kids are half Polish, I have blood relatives there |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:12:53 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: EXACTLY.....WE TIRED OF PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S SECURITY so you want FREE SECURITY? Time to pay for it..... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Tell em to whip out their credit card! EXACTLY.....WE TIRED OF PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S SECURITY so you want FREE SECURITY? Time to pay for it..... Poland is #23 in the world in defense spending. But do go on.... Because fuck facts.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:16:17 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This should help speed the decision up: http://euro2012girls.com/pictures/best-polish-girls-euro08.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah, they've been asking. We've been hemming and hawing. This should help speed the decision up: http://euro2012girls.com/pictures/best-polish-girls-euro08.jpg I can confirm this personally: I had a Polish co-worker who was drop-dead gorgeous. There is a member here who, based on a non-BOTD photo he posted, has a smoking-hot Polish wife. ETA: Good luck to the Poles in getting the Obama Administration to agree.... |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:18:42 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Poland is #23 in the world in defense spending. But do go on.... Because fuck facts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tell em to whip out their credit card! EXACTLY.....WE TIRED OF PAYING FOR EVERYONE'S SECURITY so you want FREE SECURITY? Time to pay for it..... Poland is #23 in the world in defense spending. But do go on.... Because fuck facts. Until either RT, Pravda, Worldnetdaily, The Blaze, or The Daily Mail decide to report on it, most of GD will continue to be oblivious. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:19:46 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yeah, because Obama is totally going to put troops in Poland after he pussied out and cancelled the missile defense we promised them. "Reset", anyone? He still thinks he can talk to Putin and make him our buddy who wants to do the "right thing". Obama's plan has a missile defense system going into Poland in 2018. Check the White House announcement from September 17, 2009. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:27:22 AM EDT
[#34]
I think the key lesson from Georgia and the Ukraine is that those states with Russian minorities need to harden those areas with significant defenses and fortifications. Make it so that the Russians have to use serious forces to take the "Russian" areas, rather than just waltz in as a fait accompli. Also, Europe needs to start re-arming. A couple of modernized expeditionary battalions aren't going to cut it against the Ruskies.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:28:14 AM EDT
[#35]
That's something we should have done from the start, put troops into Poland as soon as Putin started his shit.
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:32:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think the key lesson from Georgia and the Ukraine is that those states with Russian minorities need to harden those areas with significant defenses and fortifications. Make it so that the Russians have to use serious forces to take the "Russian" areas, rather than just waltz in as a fait accompli. Also, Europe needs to start re-arming. A couple of modernized expeditionary battalions aren't going to cut it against the Ruskies. Ugh, but Russia took Crimea without basically firing a shot. It doesn't appear the Ukrainians have any will to fight, inside them. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:32:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obama's plan has a missile defense system going into Poland in 2018. Check the White House announcement from September 17, 2009. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
yeah, because Obama is totally going to put troops in Poland after he pussied out and cancelled the missile defense we promised them. "Reset", anyone? He still thinks he can talk to Putin and make him our buddy who wants to do the "right thing". Obama's plan has a missile defense system going into Poland in 2018. Check the White House announcement from September 17, 2009. cancelling and delaying the earlier plan. You are polishing a diplomatic turd. that was a delay to placate putin that pissed off both Poland and Czech Republic. You know that. I don't think 2018 does fuck all for Poland's immediate issues. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:34:06 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ugh, but Russia took Crimea without basically firing a shot. It doesn't appear the Ukrainians have any will to fight, inside them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think the key lesson from Georgia and the Ukraine is that those states with Russian minorities need to harden those areas with significant defenses and fortifications. Make it so that the Russians have to use serious forces to take the "Russian" areas, rather than just waltz in as a fait accompli. Also, Europe needs to start re-arming. A couple of modernized expeditionary battalions aren't going to cut it against the Ruskies. Ugh, but Russia took Crimea without basically firing a shot. It doesn't appear the Ukrainians have any will to fight, inside them. Yeah, Russia had leased bases there, plus Ukraine was in chaos. We need to makes sure suck circumstances don't happen in a NATO member. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:34:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's something we should have done from the start, put troops into Poland as soon as Putin started his shit. We have long-standing agreements with Russia about positioning "substantial" combat assets further East. I think it's time we re-look this. We did just fly a handful of F16s into Poland yesterday. 12, IIRC. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:40:10 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
cancelling and delaying the earlier plan. You are polishing a diplomatic turd. that was a delay to placate putin that pissed off both Poland and Czech Republic. You know that. I don't think 2018 does fuck all for Poland's immediate issues. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
yeah, because Obama is totally going to put troops in Poland after he pussied out and cancelled the missile defense we promised them. "Reset", anyone? He still thinks he can talk to Putin and make him our buddy who wants to do the "right thing". Obama's plan has a missile defense system going into Poland in 2018. Check the White House announcement from September 17, 2009. cancelling and delaying the earlier plan. You are polishing a diplomatic turd. that was a delay to placate putin that pissed off both Poland and Czech Republic. You know that. I don't think 2018 does fuck all for Poland's immediate issues. Because GBI in Poland brings actual capability. Oh wait, they just announced a redesign of GBI because it sucks so bad. 2018 is actually pacing the threat, Iran, pretty well. And Obama's plan actually, you know, protects Europe. GBI, even a two-stage version, would have left large tracts of Europe undefefended. LightningII's post made it sound like there was NO missile defense going into Poland, which is not the case. And hasn't been the case for nearly five years. Diplomatically, it may have pissed off those nations, but either by happenstance or by skill, it does bring actual capability to Europe. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:44:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because GBI in Poland brings actual capability. Oh wait, they just announced a redesign of GBI because it sucks so bad. 2018 is actually pacing the threat, Iran, pretty well. And Obama's plan actually, you know, protects Europe. GBI, even a two-stage version, would have left large tracts of Europe undefefended. LightningII's post made it sound like there was NO missile defense going into Poland, which is not the case. And hasn't been the case for nearly five years. Diplomatically, it may have pissed off those nations, but either by happenstance or by skill, it does bring actual capability to Europe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
yeah, because Obama is totally going to put troops in Poland after he pussied out and cancelled the missile defense we promised them. "Reset", anyone? He still thinks he can talk to Putin and make him our buddy who wants to do the "right thing". Obama's plan has a missile defense system going into Poland in 2018. Check the White House announcement from September 17, 2009. cancelling and delaying the earlier plan. You are polishing a diplomatic turd. that was a delay to placate putin that pissed off both Poland and Czech Republic. You know that. I don't think 2018 does fuck all for Poland's immediate issues. Because GBI in Poland brings actual capability. Oh wait, they just announced a redesign of GBI because it sucks so bad. 2018 is actually pacing the threat, Iran, pretty well. And Obama's plan actually, you know, protects Europe. GBI, even a two-stage version, would have left large tracts of Europe undefefended. LightningII's post made it sound like there was NO missile defense going into Poland, which is not the case. And hasn't been the case for nearly five years. Diplomatically, it may have pissed off those nations, but either by happenstance or by skill, it does bring actual capability to Europe. Iran isn't Poland's problem. GBI was a diplomatic move to counter Putin, which IS Poland's problem. It was a sign of American commitment to Poland. Suddenly Obama is the missile defense hawk and resolute guardian of "new europe?" I don't think so. You think Europe is more interested in Russia or Iran? Yeah. that was a rollover to demonstrate the "reset" and his "flexbility" and it is bearing its bitter fruit now. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:48:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iran isn't Poland's problem. GBI was a diplomatic move to counter Putin, which IS Poland's problem. It was a sign of American commitment to Poland. Suddenly Obama is the missile defense hawk and resolute guardian of "new europe?" I don't think so. You think Europe is more interested in Russia or Iran? Yeah. that was a rollover to demonstrate the "reset" and his "flexbility" and it is bearing its bitter fruit now. If anything good has come out of this, it's that now we can implement an air defense system for the reason the Poles wanted it, and should no less qualms about making this clear to the Russians. We need to start treating them as a threat and an enemy, and stop the "we hope they can become a responsible partner" rhetoric - it hasn't worked. It takes two willing partners to have a partnership. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:52:37 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 3/16/2014 8:59:14 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iran isn't Poland's problem. GBI was a diplomatic move to counter Putin, which IS Poland's problem. It was a sign of American commitment to Poland. Suddenly Obama is the missile defense hawk and resolute guardian of "new europe?" I don't think so. You think Europe is more interested in Russia or Iran? Yeah. that was a rollover to demonstrate the "reset" and his "flexbility" and it is bearing its bitter fruit now. Nope. Iran is our problem. It was also the reason the Bush Administration pushed for missile defense in Europe. Bush pushed for missile defense in Europe for two reasons. The first was to protect the United States from Iranian ICBMs, which is why his plan was shaped to leave much of Europe undefended, while providing ascent phase defense for the US. The second was to help keep European allies in line should action against Iran be necessary. The lesson of July 2004 was learned well The Europeans have always viewed missile defense as an excuse to get US service members on their soil as a hedge against Russia. If you think George "I can see into Putin's soul" Bush was using this as a way to counter Russian power in Easter Europe, you've over-estimated the previous administration. He could have done so, at much less cost than the 2 stage GBI plan. 2018 may be too late, I doubt it, but it may be. Maybe the Army could have fielded something faster. Of course, that would involve taking their assigned missions seriously. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:03:35 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Iran is our problem. It was also the reason the Bush Administration pushed for missile defense in Europe. Bush pushed for missile defense in Europe for two reasons. The first was to protect the United States from Iranian ICBMs, which is why his plan was shaped to leave much of Europe undefended, while providing ascent phase defense for the US. The second was to help keep European allies in line should action against Iran be necessary. The lesson of July 2004 was learned well The Europeans have always viewed missile defense as an excuse to get US service members on their soil as a hedge against Russia. If you think George "I can see into Putin's soul" Bush was using this as a way to counter Russian power in Easter Europe, you've over-estimated the previous administration. He could have done so, at much less cost than the 2 stage GBI plan. 2018 may be too late, I doubt it, but it may be. Maybe the Army could have fielded something faster. Of course, that would involve taking their assigned missions seriously. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Iran isn't Poland's problem. GBI was a diplomatic move to counter Putin, which IS Poland's problem. It was a sign of American commitment to Poland. Suddenly Obama is the missile defense hawk and resolute guardian of "new europe?" I don't think so. You think Europe is more interested in Russia or Iran? Yeah. that was a rollover to demonstrate the "reset" and his "flexbility" and it is bearing its bitter fruit now. Nope. Iran is our problem. It was also the reason the Bush Administration pushed for missile defense in Europe. Bush pushed for missile defense in Europe for two reasons. The first was to protect the United States from Iranian ICBMs, which is why his plan was shaped to leave much of Europe undefended, while providing ascent phase defense for the US. The second was to help keep European allies in line should action against Iran be necessary. The lesson of July 2004 was learned well The Europeans have always viewed missile defense as an excuse to get US service members on their soil as a hedge against Russia. If you think George "I can see into Putin's soul" Bush was using this as a way to counter Russian power in Easter Europe, you've over-estimated the previous administration. He could have done so, at much less cost than the 2 stage GBI plan. 2018 may be too late, I doubt it, but it may be. Maybe the Army could have fielded something faster. Of course, that would involve taking their assigned missions seriously. We delayed EPAA in order to placate Russia. It's really that simple. We were fixated on "reset" and unwilling to call them on their bullshit. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:05:36 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. Iran is our problem. It was also the reason the Bush Administration pushed for missile defense in Europe. Bush pushed for missile defense in Europe for two reasons. The first was to protect the United States from Iranian ICBMs, which is why his plan was shaped to leave much of Europe undefended, while providing ascent phase defense for the US. The second was to help keep European allies in line should action against Iran be necessary. The lesson of July 2004 was learned well The Europeans have always viewed missile defense as an excuse to get US service members on their soil as a hedge against Russia. If you think George "I can see into Putin's soul" Bush was using this as a way to counter Russian power in Easter Europe, you've over-estimated the previous administration. He could have done so, at much less cost than the 2 stage GBI plan. 2018 may be too late, I doubt it, but it may be. Maybe the Army could have fielded something faster. Of course, that would involve taking their assigned missions seriously. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Iran isn't Poland's problem. GBI was a diplomatic move to counter Putin, which IS Poland's problem. It was a sign of American commitment to Poland. Suddenly Obama is the missile defense hawk and resolute guardian of "new europe?" I don't think so. You think Europe is more interested in Russia or Iran? Yeah. that was a rollover to demonstrate the "reset" and his "flexbility" and it is bearing its bitter fruit now. Nope. Iran is our problem. It was also the reason the Bush Administration pushed for missile defense in Europe. Bush pushed for missile defense in Europe for two reasons. The first was to protect the United States from Iranian ICBMs, which is why his plan was shaped to leave much of Europe undefended, while providing ascent phase defense for the US. The second was to help keep European allies in line should action against Iran be necessary. The lesson of July 2004 was learned well The Europeans have always viewed missile defense as an excuse to get US service members on their soil as a hedge against Russia. If you think George "I can see into Putin's soul" Bush was using this as a way to counter Russian power in Easter Europe, you've over-estimated the previous administration. He could have done so, at much less cost than the 2 stage GBI plan. 2018 may be too late, I doubt it, but it may be. Maybe the Army could have fielded something faster. Of course, that would involve taking their assigned missions seriously. You want to put a patriot battery there? Just ask. Was there a requested army asset that was turned down? Bush changed his opinion of Putin and publically stated so. Everyone knows 2009 was simply assuaging the Russians while fucking the Poles and Czechs. to claim otherwise is silly. Iran launching against the US? When is that supposed to occur? There are a number of locations that could counter that threat. Poland wanted an enduring commitment of US forces on Polish soil for very obvious reasons. F16s? Patriot? AEgis? Those are pack and play. GBI is permanent. Thats why it was diplomatically significant and Poland wanted it. Iran is a figleaf. Russia is the actual threat. So here we are, 5 years later, scrambling for a US presence after abandoning the earlier plan for a promise 10 years in the future. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:17:05 AM EDT
[#47]
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Once Putin has secured the Ukraine. Romania and Poland are next. Don't worry though, our POTUS will be right on it right after his next round of golf.
If he did take over Romania, would anybody notice? I am unimpressed with the people from there.
Poland should be a dumping ground for all our old equipment and defense systems. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:18:42 AM EDT
[#48]
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Poland also sent troops to US led ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Poles are strong US allies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm curious to know what steps they've taken to beef up their own forces and how much they have paid us for weaponry to be better prepared prior to asking us to put forces on the line. That should be at least part of the litmus test. If only you had access to a world of information at your fingertips, in some kind of interconnected communications network. Wouldn't that be cool? Oh, the things you could learn! Bonjour. If you haven't learned the difference between random blogs or "news" sites pandering to derpers, and Ministry of Defense Websites, NATO websites (not available now, I admit), established and respected journalism websites - including many devoted to defense topics, etc., then why would you think you could asses the value of a random post in GD? But, FWIW, Poland pulls its weight, has been upping its budget,and has in serious talks about developing a domestic Ballistic Missile Defense system (got tired of depending on the US) for some time. Poland also sent troops to US led ventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Poles are strong US allies. This^ it shouldn't be forgotten. Like we forgot about Georgia helping us out too. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:19:00 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You want to put a patriot battery there? Just ask. Was there a requested army asset that was turned down? Quote HistoryQuoted:
You want to put a patriot battery there? Just ask. Was there a requested army asset that was turned down? In 2009, when the Analysis of Alternatives was being conducted for missile defense of Europe. Bush changed his opinion of Putin and publically stated so. Everyone knows 2009 was simply assuaging the Russians while fucking the Poles and Czechs. to claim otherwise is silly. In 2007, when he was selling his missile defense plan, that was not Bush's opinion. Timelines are important. Otherwise, everything is just 20/20 hindsight bullshit. I'm trying to find the agreement we signed with the Czech Republic. I know we signed one with Poland and we're putting a site in Poland. Interesting huh? Iran launching against the US? When is that supposed to occur? There are a number of locations that could counter that threat. According to which NIE? The one that was used to justify the Bush plan said 2015. The revised NIE said later. The earliest the Poland site under the Bush plan would become operational is 2015. And in all honesty that would have been delayed further given GBI's performance. Poland wanted an enduring commitment of US forces on Polish soil for very obvious reasons. F16s? Patriot? AEgis? Those are pack and play. Agreed. So why would the Bush Administration use the Iranian missile threat subterfuge if Russia was the intended audience? GBI is permanent. Thats why it was diplomatically significant and Poland wanted it. Iran is a figleaf. Russia is the actual threat. So here we are, 5 years later, scrambling for a US presence after abandoning the earlier plan for a promise 10 years in the future. I wish I could understand what the hell you're talking about here, but I misplaced my secret decoder ring. |
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Posted: 3/16/2014 9:21:40 AM EDT
[#50]
I do wonder,seriously, what the end game is and who is guiding Putin,if anyone. I've read articles about how his circle of advisors has shrunk to a core of fellow KGB Cold Warriors but any reasonable person can see that being antagonistic is bad for business and you've got to wonder if his oligarchs are going to go along for the ride or cash out and flee.
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