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Josh
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:23:20 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Master_of_Orion:
well... it is stolen property... if it's the claimed gold from that robbery.

But... it's really old stolen property where everyone who was involved is now dead. To me that means the statute of limitations (a term I'm probably misusing) should have run out and they should get to keep it.

At the very least they should get a hefty finders fee to include at least one of the coins.


The government owned them and isn't dead though... I have a feeling they're going to lose them.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:37:16 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Josh:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By DrFeelgood:
I've seen estimates of face value and collector value, does anybody have an idea what spot would fetch?


Look a few posts above.. ~$37,000.

And I wholeheartedly agree that those folks are idiots for publicizing this. Sell a few here and there over the years. Be discreet. Some of those coins are worth $1 million or more apiece just due to their rarity and condition.


No, face value was 38k. Spot would be almost 2 million.


This..

And selling one of two a year would not work so well.. The population of coins is known and most all rare dates and verities are highly researched and accounted for..

There are coins in this find that every other known example is accounted for. You don't show up with a new one in better condition than all known examples and not have every coin dealer talking about it in 24 hours..

Not to mention no coin dealer or collector is going to put down big money until the coin is graded.. Too many fakes and grading matters.
PCGS (the place these coins are now) has IRS people in the building. A new found, best known example of US gold is going to be looked at my the top grades in the world..

Nothing in the coin world is a secret.
Jack Bauer... That's why..
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:42:23 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By David4327:
If the coins are found to be stolen, then it's okay to keep them and say nothing? Interesting, Arfcom does not hate thieves after all.
When you purchase your property isn't everything on it yours? Just curious, I don't know the laws concerning that.


obviously

The owner of stolen property always has the right to recover their property.

If somebody stole something of yours, how long to they get to keep it before it becomes theirs?? If they hide it in Robin Hoods Barn, and Robin Hood sold the barn to Little John. Does your property now belong to Little John?
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:42:48 PM EST
The math doesn't add up for these to be from the Dimmick robbery.

They found 1,427 coins, the newest from 1894. Seven years before the theft occurred. They made gold coins till 1933. The odds of there not being anything newer than 1894 in the stollen coins are not good. And he only stole 500 coins.

Doesn't mean the .GOV wont try though.
leatherface_y2k
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:44:57 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By David4327:
If the coins are found to be stolen, then it's okay to keep them and say nothing? Interesting, Arfcom does not hate thieves after all.
When you purchase your property isn't everything on it yours? Just curious, I don't know the laws concerning that.


obviously

The owner of stolen property always has the right to recover their property.

If somebody stole something of yours, how long to they get to keep it before it becomes theirs?? If they hide it in Robin Hoods Barn, and Robin Hood sold the barn to Little John. Does your property now belong to Little John?


How the hell can anyone prove that coins are stolen? There are no serial numbers. "Probably... likely... maybe.. could have been.."

Bullshit.
"If Jesus had a gun he'd still be alive." - Homer Simpson
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:46:59 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FlyingGorilla:
I'd have driven to Canada and sold them in Vancouver. I'm sure that they'd be a small enough package that they could easily be unnoticed in a car full of vacationers' luggage. If they'd done that and converted the proceeds to Bitcoin headed to Europe and then cashed out they could have taken that $10million estimate and multiplied that several times over while enjoying their new life on the French Riviera.


Some of these coins are so unique that a dealer would very likely either have a good idea where they came from or think counterfeit. "Oh yeah, found it in a can in the backyard??" Kind of like finding and trying to sell a well known stolen Chagall or Picasso. A legit dealer would immediately know what it is.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:47:26 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Cossa:
Won't be long before it gets taken away



FPNI !


Ha Ha .......dumbasses should have learned a bit of OPSEC.

The probably end up with didly-squat ! Dumbasses !
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:49:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2014 8:50:31 PM EST by Master_of_Orion]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By PaDanby:
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By David4327:
If the coins are found to be stolen, then it's okay to keep them and say nothing? Interesting, Arfcom does not hate thieves after all.
When you purchase your property isn't everything on it yours? Just curious, I don't know the laws concerning that.


obviously

The owner of stolen property always has the right to recover their property.

If somebody stole something of yours, how long to they get to keep it before it becomes theirs?? If they hide it in Robin Hoods Barn, and Robin Hood sold the barn to Little John. Does your property now belong to Little John?
How about after you and everyone you know at the time of the robbery is long dead?


At some point it stops being stolen property and becomes an historical artifact... which belongs to the owners of the property it was found on.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:51:47 PM EST


Stolen coins or not, the government is gonna find some way to fuck them.

When I started metal detecting many years ago, one of the very first things my brother taught me was, if you find anything shut up about it.


"And yet another Arfcom IQ test begins to claim its victims."

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Posted: 2/26/2014 8:59:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2014 9:00:36 PM EST by Windustsearch]
I doubt it is the stolen ones. The dates don't match, and nobody has said they are all SF mint.

I am still betting it is a 1930s collection stash.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:00:49 PM EST
wtf happened to opsec?

I didntfoundnuthin!
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Mak
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:03:00 PM EST
500 coins were supposedly stolen? Over 1,400 coins were found? All you that claim these are the stolen coins must not be able to do subtraction and addition or I am missing something.
leatherface_y2k
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:05:06 PM EST
I would make a wild ass guess that someone buried that stash in 1932 or so, whenever it was that FDR illegally "outlawed" private ownership of gold. It would be interesting to see the cans, or an analysis of them to establish when the cans were manufactured.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:09:10 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
I'll never understand why people don't just shut the hell up when things like this happen.



This post wins the thread.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:12:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/26/2014 9:14:11 PM EST by David0858]
It's like that article was wrote by two different people. The first part with the speculation about a mint theft and the latter part describes how the coins were when they were found with the oldest in the cans on the bottom and in the cans with the oldest in the can on the bottom of a can going from oldest to newest from bottom to top, and with the coins dated from 1847 to 1894.

It's obvious what these coins are when you think about it. These were someone(s) life savings, bought new from the bank over almost 50 years. People didn't trust banks for good reason. There is probably little caches of coins all over the world going back into antiquity buried and the not retrieved when the people died or were killed. I would imagine that most of these aren't very big and in the case of the ones that are found, most of the finders are smart enough to keep their mouths shut.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:16:07 PM EST
Here is the problem with not telling anyone..

You would have only one way to sell the coins and make the money their rarity is worth.. On the black market.

Any that is a long, long shot.. Like leave the US and never come back..

The catch is getting the coins authenticated and graded.. If you send them to NGC or PCGS to be graded your screwed, games up.. So you would have to find a group of coin dealers to all put there names and reputations behind a black market coin to get a net grade and authentication..

Coin dealers in the US are bound to financial instatutions laws.. They have to report things like this.. And in the coin world you get one shot.. Any bad mark on your record and your blacklisted.. The whole thing runs on a crazy system of trust. The gov almost always figures out who was behind a coin found on the black market.. Even years down the road people do serious time for shit like this..

So you are not going to find a dealer or dealers in the US to help, and you can't get the coins graded.. Nobody is going to but a coin like that ungraded and raw.

So you have to leave the US and take a fraction of the real market value..

The family is doing things right.. The coins are being preserved and graded by the best in the coin world, the dealer they are using (a good guy) knows all about these kind of collections. He has lawyers and tax consultants as well as necessary security. This is not his first million dollar collection. They will get the coins graded and make an auction catalog and population report for the coins. Though when these coins are slabbed (put in sealed plastic) the PCGS grading tag will indicate they were part of this find.. Pedigree is important to coin nerds. They will market it up for a year or two and then make plenty at auction and selling to dealers. They will pay the taxes and still come out WAY ahead..

BTW - the dealer handling this find is a dirty Inky.. I once flew to San Fransisco from LA to deliver a single coin to him.. Met him at the airport and got back on a plane home.. Lets just say the value of the coin made the flight well worth it..
Jack Bauer... That's why..
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:21:37 PM EST
Always Think Forfeiture...
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Mak
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:32:22 PM EST
The finders of the coins took them back to their house and buried them under their woodpile until the could get experts to look at them.........according to Fox News.

Guess they didn't trust banks either.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 9:45:59 PM EST
I see a fed MRAP pulling up in the finders driveway in the foreseeable future.
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Posted: 2/27/2014 3:32:54 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By pepperbelly:
Originally Posted By DrFeelgood:
Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Originally Posted By DrFeelgood:
I've seen estimates of face value and collector value, does anybody have an idea what spot would fetch?


Look a few posts above.. ~$37,000.

And I wholeheartedly agree that those folks are idiots for publicizing this. Sell a few here and there over the years. Be discreet. Some of those coins are worth $1 million or more apiece just due to their rarity and condition.

$37K would be less than 30 oz. total weight. I gotta think the find is heavier than that. Just one of those cans has to weigh at least eight pounds.



1427 coins, call them 1 ounce just to make the math simple although each would be a little less. Lets say gold is $1,300.00 per ounce- good round number.

1427 x $1,300.00 = $1,855,100.00.


You're right, I was citing another post, not doing the math myself. Laziness and drunkenness...


If you drink more you won't feel so lazy.
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Posted: 2/27/2014 3:34:57 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
from the dates I heard on the radio these coins are far older then 1901


Long as they are not far newer.
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Posted: 2/27/2014 9:06:42 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Recusance:
They most certainly would have had to melt the coins down.

Coins that recognizable would have drawn attention in short order anyways.
fucking ridiculous

$27,000 face is about 1300 ounces or roughly 1.7 million, a lot of money but only 15% of the stated value, it would be fairly easy to get 50% of the ten million in a hurry and cut your losses with that or sell singles for full value over time.
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Posted: 2/27/2014 9:14:28 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By operatorerror:
Here come the feds...


eta This story is getting more and more twisted every day. I swear if I ever stumble upon a treasure I will NOT be making announcements and doing press releases. Things will be slowly and quietly sold off.
The title of my EE post will be: WTT my gold for your entire NFA collection
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Posted: 2/27/2014 9:18:30 PM EST
The couple should have shut up and said nothing about them, then dumped them on the market one at a time.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 1:57:26 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Cossa:
Won't be long before it gets taken away


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Posted: 2/28/2014 2:58:51 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Cossa:
Won't be long before it gets taken away

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Posted: 2/28/2014 3:01:03 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Cossa:
Won't be long before it gets taken away


Find gold?, keep mouth shut!
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Posted: 2/28/2014 3:09:15 AM EST
Well they were rich for a few days at least!!

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Posted: 2/28/2014 3:14:16 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By David4327:
If the coins are found to be stolen, then it's okay to keep them and say nothing? Interesting, Arfcom does not hate thieves after all.
When you purchase your property isn't everything on it yours? Just curious, I don't know the laws concerning that.

Tell that to the Feds.

IIRC, a citizen purchased a seized car from a govt auction. Went to get some work done it, since it wasn't holding as much fuel as it should.
The mechanic found a compartment, in the fuel tank, filled with $$$. The Feds said it was their $$$, even though the citizen now owned the car.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:18:48 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By NwG:
The family is doing things right.


I agree. But by the time the IRS, the State of California, their broker and attorneys get through working them over they'll be lucky if they clear $2 mil. Still, it's a better option than possible prison time.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:22:03 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By alpca1541:
Originally Posted By NwG:
The family is doing things right.


I agree. But by the time the IRS, the State of California, their broker and attorneys get through working them over they'll be lucky if they clear $2 mil. Still, it's a better option than possible prison time.


I wonder if the government will use the NSA to find out who they are?
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:22:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/28/2014 4:23:00 AM EST by TacticalHeater]
Hahaha, they totally deserved that. It's going to get taken away because they couldn't keep their yappers shut.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:24:48 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Jerryjeff:
Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
I'll never understand why people don't just shut the hell up when things like this happen.
No shit, they should have said nothing!


They are probably Obama voters, so it would serve them right.
I'm tired of reading this horseshit. Seriously, I've come to the point where I've decided that there can never be a jury of my peers, because my peers aren't this fucking retarded.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:26:03 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By TacticalHeater:
Hahaha, they totally deserved that. It's going to get taken away because they couldn't keep their yappers shut.


Well the article does say they are selling them anonymously through Amazon.

I wonder how well that will turn out?
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:27:16 AM EST
As soon as I heard this story, I knew right away that someone with the government was going to lay claim to the coins.

It is inevitable.

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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:28:19 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
I'll never understand why people don't just shut the hell up when things like this happen.



Yup.

As the facebook, twitter, instagram, snapchat, etc generations get older we are going to see more and more stupidity.

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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:28:23 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Chris_C:
As soon as I heard this story, I knew right away that someone with the government was going to lay claim to the coins.

It is inevitable.



Yup, I'm just surprised Spain hasn't gotten involved yet.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:34:39 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
from the dates I heard on the radio these coins are far older then 1901


Because they didn't keep older coins in the Mint in vaults.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:42:05 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Mak:
500 coins were supposedly stolen? Over 1,400 coins were found? All you that claim these are the stolen coins must not be able to do subtraction and addition or I am missing something.

It says 1500 coins now
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:43:41 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By RDak:
Originally Posted By alpca1541:
Originally Posted By NwG:
The family is doing things right.

I agree. But by the time the IRS, the State of California, their broker and attorneys get through working them over they'll be lucky if they clear $2 mil. Still, it's a better option than possible prison time.


I wonder if the government will use the NSA to find out who they are?


The IRS doesn't need the NSA.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:44:15 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
The couple should have shut up and said nothing about them, then dumped them on the market one at a time.

First time you did that, red flags would go up because of the rarity of them.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:48:25 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By PaDanby:

The owner of stolen property always has the right to recover their property.




Really? How do get our money back from the IRS?
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Posted: 2/28/2014 4:51:40 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By RogueSpear2023:
The couple should have shut up and said nothing about them, then dumped them on the market one at a time.




It's difficult to dump a $1,000,000 coin on the market and not have anyone take notice.

Especially when you have over a thousand coins.

I don't like making plans for the day because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:01:04 AM EST
What are the chances that this collection on the open market could seriously devalue someone's current collection?
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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:14:47 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
I would make a wild ass guess that someone buried that stash in 1932 or so, whenever it was that FDR illegally "outlawed" private ownership of gold. It would be interesting to see the cans, or an analysis of them to establish when the cans were manufactured.



Probably the equivalent of someone digging up a greased AR15 in a pvc tube in a backyard in Connecticut 20 or 30 years from now. I doubt everybody dutifully turned in all their gold when that overreach occurred. Wouldn't be surprising at all.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:21:52 AM EST
Do the Coins say "In God We Trust" on them?

If they do everyone else who might have a claim to them can FOAD.

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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:22:53 AM EST
the couple is fucked.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:25:02 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Jerryjeff:
Originally Posted By Enlightenme556:
I'll never understand why people don't just shut the hell up when things like this happen.
No shit, they should have said nothing!


Just wait until the Feds demand they be turned over, as they were supposed to have been in 1933. They did this to another person who acquired old US gold coins a couple of years ago.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:26:29 AM EST
Both the state and federal governments will want them. It will be an interesting fight.
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Posted: 2/28/2014 5:35:39 AM EST
Gov't says they owe half of the value. MSM is saying something like they'll owe $5M based on the value of the coins, however face value is $27,000 (not 37), and it's still technically legal tender, so I don't know if the treasure trove law applies here.

But the people still should have kept their traps shut. Money says the voted for obongo, and trusted the gov't to not rob them blind. Fucking morans.
"I would personally ram my phallus into an eye socket with the eye still present, so you could feel the sensation of it being dislodged from its original position and being pushed back into the brain"
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