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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:14:46 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Three pro-Russian militants died and 13 were wounded when Ukrainian troops repelled an attack on a National Guard base in the Black Sea port of Mariupol, Ukraine's interior ministry said Thursday. Footage from outside the base on Thursday night showed an unidentified man who acted as an intermediary coming out of the building to the crowd and speaking to masked men armed with assault rifles. He told them the military asked for 10 minutes to think over an unspecified ultimatum and the masked men said they did not want any bloodshed. Several minutes afterwards, the crowd, mainly made of masked men young armed with bats and sticks, started throwing Molotov cocktails at the base's gate and trucks parked in front of it. Sounds of gunfire were heard in response. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-04-17-04-20-32 About damn time. Fight those commie douche bags. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:34:48 AM EDT
[#2]
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Just wondering. If this was in Ukraine, would these folks be considered "pro-Russian traitors" or "infiltrated Russian soldiers"? 
http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-25.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-19.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-26.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-21.jpg According to some theories floating around here, they would never be "patriots". 
Neither. If that were Ukraine, those folks above would be the people who put enough pressure on their Russian puppet leader to cause him to flee the country. Ukrainian patriots are those who fight for THEIR country, not for Russia. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:45:16 AM EDT
[#3]
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On it's Day 51 page, The Interpreter Blog says it a Spetznaz VDV flag. It was also the flag of the Soviet VDV. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This flag http://abload.de/img/ukr2924mk7b.jpg looks pretty similar to this flag http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/event/2012-08-02-8909-40575.jpg and different from Russian VDV flag http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Flag_of_the_Russian_Airborne_Troops.svg/450px-Flag_of_the_Russian_Airborne_Troops.svg.png In some of the movies the flag had a star, which I believe it's the actual VDV flag, isn't it? On it's Day 51 page, The Interpreter Blog says it a Spetznaz VDV flag. It was also the flag of the Soviet VDV. The video on that blog shows pro-russian marching with three different types of VDV flags. There seems to be many variations of the flag with soviet ones typically having a red star and then flags for individual divisions or brigades. The flag flying from the BMP I originally responded to was identified by posters on milphotos as belonging to Ukrainian 25th Airborne Brigade. The reason I responded in the first place is that it seems some people point out things like this thinking they are a smoking gun that Russian military is involved in Ukraine. Other instances like: Sodiers wearing VDV Telnyashkas, even though Ukrainian troops wear the same thing. Pro-Russian militia operating captured BMP, insignificant considering a large percentage of adult males were conscripts in Ukrainian or Soviet Army. comments about seperatist wearing fancy helmet with night vision or optics attached, sold by chinese on ebay. Even camo patterns prove nothing because most can be purchased commercially, like most other non-weapons gear. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:54:01 AM EDT
[#4]
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Oh FFS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just wondering. If this was in Ukraine, would these folks be considered "pro-Russian traitors" or "infiltrated Russian soldiers"?
http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-25.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-19.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-26.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-21.jpg According to some theories floating around here, they would never be "patriots".
Trying to compare things that aren't really comparable doesn't really prove the point you are trying to make. Some folks raised against a government they do not believe in (for whatever reason) here and in Ukraine. So, in Ukraine, the eastern folks are clearly pro-Russia and do not seem to want anything to do with the new self-appointed government and are raising against it. According to some in this thread, these folks are traitors of Ukraine and just Russian tools. So, how does one define who is a "traitor" (or a puppet) or a "patriot"?
The posters' methodology of selecting who is right or wrong follows the same arbitrary pattern of the dictator they seem to be so adamantly against. So, yes, it's relevant to the point. Oh FFS. Circular logic gone awry. The Ukranian situation is much, much more complicated thean the Bundy episode. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:56:02 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. If that were Ukraine, those folks above would be the people who put enough pressure on their Russian puppet leader to cause him to flee the country. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just wondering. If this was in Ukraine, would these folks be considered "pro-Russian traitors" or "infiltrated Russian soldiers"?
http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-25.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-19.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-26.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-21.jpg According to some theories floating around here, they would never be "patriots".
Neither. If that were Ukraine, those folks above would be the people who put enough pressure on their Russian puppet leader to cause him to flee the country. Yes, but we are past that. Based on the current situation, imagining that "those folks" actually replaced the puppet leader by someone who the "new rebels" think is worse, thus they want to stay with the previous one (the puppet), which happened to have been "democratically elected" and did not "take power through a coup". Also, for the sake of this case, imagine that the "new government" has few to no representation in that region. So, these folks actually, believe that they would better side with Russia and are taking any help they can from their "savior". Are they traitors or patriots? The way I see this is that once someone starts making arbitrary decisions and taking arbitrary steps towards whatever they "believe in" with total disregard for the other parties things can escalate and get messy very fast. Ukraine's "new government" was an arbitrary step from a minority (for whatever reason) and has no legitimacy. Therefore, now everyone over there feels they can do whatever they want. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 11:59:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Circular logic gone awry. The Ukranian situation is much, much more complicated thean the Bundy episode. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just wondering. If this was in Ukraine, would these folks be considered "pro-Russian traitors" or "infiltrated Russian soldiers"?
http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-25.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-19.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-26.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-21.jpg According to some theories floating around here, they would never be "patriots".
Trying to compare things that aren't really comparable doesn't really prove the point you are trying to make. Some folks raised against a government they do not believe in (for whatever reason) here and in Ukraine. So, in Ukraine, the eastern folks are clearly pro-Russia and do not seem to want anything to do with the new self-appointed government and are raising against it. According to some in this thread, these folks are traitors of Ukraine and just Russian tools. So, how does one define who is a "traitor" (or a puppet) or a "patriot"?
The posters' methodology of selecting who is right or wrong follows the same arbitrary pattern of the dictator they seem to be so adamantly against. So, yes, it's relevant to the point. Oh FFS. Circular logic gone awry. The Ukranian situation is much, much more complicated thean the Bundy episode. Not really, mostly if you consider the involvement of this government's politicians involvement with foreign private interests, for personal gains... 
Things in Nevada are quite complex also. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Neither. If that were Ukraine, those folks above would be the people who put enough pressure on their Russian puppet leader to cause him to flee the country. Ukrainian patriots are those who fight for THEIR country, not for Russia. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just wondering. If this was in Ukraine, would these folks be considered "pro-Russian traitors" or "infiltrated Russian soldiers"?
http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-25.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-19.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-26.jpg http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy/bundy-21.jpg According to some theories floating around here, they would never be "patriots".
Neither. If that were Ukraine, those folks above would be the people who put enough pressure on their Russian puppet leader to cause him to flee the country. Ukrainian patriots are those who fight for THEIR country, not for Russia. How do you define "their country" in light of recent events? Maidan was a minority of the population that overthrew the President that most of the south and east voted for. The fundamental problem underlying this whole crisis is that Ukraine as a sovereign country is a joke. East and west don't get along and probably can't. The last decade has been corrupt politician from either side trying to dominate the other part of the country. The people of Ukraine don't have a unifying religion, culture or language. People from east and west have different views of what Ukrainians are. The reason I say Ukraine is a joke is that sovereign states don't allow extremist to capture and vandalize government buildings with impunity. Police and military don't defect and join protesters. They don't allow foreign countries to annex part of their country and offer no military resistance. They don't allow foreign politicians to openly support anti-government protests in the middle of the capital. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:09:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The way I see this is that once someone starts making arbitrary decisions and taking arbitrary steps towards whatever they "believe in" with total disregard for the other parties things can escalate and get messy very fast. Ukraine's "new government" was an arbitrary step from a minority (for whatever reason) and has no legitimacy. Therefore, now everyone over there feels they can do whatever they want. Quote HistoryQuoted: The way I see this is that once someone starts making arbitrary decisions and taking arbitrary steps towards whatever they "believe in" with total disregard for the other parties things can escalate and get messy very fast. Ukraine's "new government" was an arbitrary step from a minority (for whatever reason) and has no legitimacy. Therefore, now everyone over there feels they can do whatever they want. Bingo you get it. I know people that supported Maidan and the overthrow of Yanukovitch, and later supported Crimea joining Russia. Same people. Ukraine is a failed state, no revenue, no jobs. Yats proposals to increase cost of living, and decrease pensions, in order to get a bailout is a 100% guaranteed losing platform. Add on top of that the racism, and you get what we see now. Common attitude is "The oligarchs stole our money, why should we pay for them to get a bailout". Does that sentiment sound familiar?
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:12:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How do you define "their country" in light of recent events? Maidan was a minority of the population that overthrew the President that most of the south and east voted for. The fundamental problem underlying this whole crisis is that Ukraine as a sovereign country is a joke. East and west don't get along and probably can't. The last decade has been corrupt politician from either side trying to dominate the other part of the country. The people of Ukraine don't have a unifying religion, culture or language. People from east and west have different views of what Ukrainians are. The reason I say Ukraine is a joke is that sovereign states don't allow extremist to capture and vandalize government buildings with impunity. Police and military don't defect and join protesters. They don't allow foreign countries to annex part of their country and offer no military resistance. They don't allow foreign politicians to openly support anti-government protests in the middle of the capital. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:29:36 PM EDT
[#10]
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I'd start with people who actually believe that "the eastern folks are clearly pro-Russia" instead of obviously being Russian plants. Or are they pensioners and local militia? I get my talking points mixed up. I'm sure you can clear it up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So, in Ukraine, the eastern folks are clearly pro-Russia and do not seem to want anything to do with the new self-appointed government and are raising against it. According to some in this thread, these folks are traitors of Ukraine and just Russian tools. So, how does one define who is a "traitor" (or a puppet) or a "patriot"? I'd start with people who actually believe that "the eastern folks are clearly pro-Russia" instead of obviously being Russian plants. Or are they pensioners and local militia? I get my talking points mixed up. I'm sure you can clear it up. Ummm, the eastern provinces have a heavy Russian ethnic background and, have always been 'pro-russia'. Now, has Russia sent in agitators and soldiers to stir shit up? Yep. That has been shown by Vice News. And, from those, and other videos, I also say that a lot of the militia are also soldiers...from Russia. As for Svoboda, do your own research on them. My take is that both sides are playing propaganda games. And, our 'side' really didn't need to since when that type of thing comes out, folks tend to go and wonder on things.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:30:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The video on that blog shows pro-russian marching with three different types of VDV flags. There seems to be many variations of the flag with soviet ones typically having a red star and then flags for individual divisions or brigades. The flag flying from the BMP I originally responded to was identified by posters on milphotos as belonging to Ukrainian 25th Airborne Brigade. The reason I responded in the first place is that it seems some people point out things like this thinking they are a smoking gun that Russian military is involved in Ukraine. Other instances like: Sodiers wearing VDV Telnyashkas, even though Ukrainian troops wear the same thing. Pro-Russian militia operating captured BMP, insignificant considering a large percentage of adult males were conscripts in Ukrainian or Soviet Army. comments about seperatist wearing fancy helmet with night vision or optics attached, sold by chinese on ebay. Even camo patterns prove nothing because most can be purchased commercially, like most other non-weapons gear. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This flag http://abload.de/img/ukr2924mk7b.jpg looks pretty similar to this flag http://www.mil.gov.ua/images/event/2012-08-02-8909-40575.jpg and different from Russian VDV flag http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Flag_of_the_Russian_Airborne_Troops.svg/450px-Flag_of_the_Russian_Airborne_Troops.svg.png In some of the movies the flag had a star, which I believe it's the actual VDV flag, isn't it? On it's Day 51 page, The Interpreter Blog says it a Spetznaz VDV flag. It was also the flag of the Soviet VDV. The video on that blog shows pro-russian marching with three different types of VDV flags. There seems to be many variations of the flag with soviet ones typically having a red star and then flags for individual divisions or brigades. The flag flying from the BMP I originally responded to was identified by posters on milphotos as belonging to Ukrainian 25th Airborne Brigade. The reason I responded in the first place is that it seems some people point out things like this thinking they are a smoking gun that Russian military is involved in Ukraine. Other instances like: Sodiers wearing VDV Telnyashkas, even though Ukrainian troops wear the same thing. Pro-Russian militia operating captured BMP, insignificant considering a large percentage of adult males were conscripts in Ukrainian or Soviet Army. comments about seperatist wearing fancy helmet with night vision or optics attached, sold by chinese on ebay. Even camo patterns prove nothing because most can be purchased commercially, like most other non-weapons gear. It looks like the big difference is the parachute on the flag. On the Russian version it's gold; on the Ukrainian it's white. The 25th Brigade is reportedly the only airborne unit that operates the BMD so seeing a 25th flag on a stolen vehicle isn't that odd. Agreed for the most part on the gear. It's just interesting that so many folks just happen to have had this Chinese knock-off gear, among other things, in their closet. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:30:17 PM EDT
[#12]
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1) Not going to fight for someone else's country if they won't fight for it themselves 2) My going there by my damn self would accomplish nothing 3) I'd happily kill some Russians if I was in the US Mil and was ordered to deploy there as an American infantryman or Marine. 
I doubt you ever served. At least not for the United States military. Ex-Russian conscript perhaps? Did you enjoin being raped by your platoon Sgt. repeatedly in standard Russian style military discipline? Lol. What's the color of the boathouse at Camp Pendleton, Mr. NBCMarine?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sounds similar to BLM storm troopers tucking tail and running.... Gov't can't rely on the troops to kill their neighbors. Glad to see soldiers have independent thought. Well the Ukrainians are damned if they do and damned if they don't. The army is not going to fire on unarmed crowds which are essentially guarding as human shields the armed insurgents. It is a difficult situation and as already pointed out...is incredibly ironic given the nonsensical propaganda coming from the Russians about the evil fascist Ukrainians. One really has to be a willfully ignorant to buy into it. They shouldn't fire on them. True. But they should be turning them into road paste with their tracks. If you are enabling my enemy, you are my enemy. There is no way in hell I would ever surrender my weapons system for fear of running over civilians. They can move. Or get squished. After the first 3 or 4 got turned into paste, the rest would get the idea and fall into line. Let Russia have the propaganda win of civvies getting squished. It's not like it matters at this point anyway. Start fighting or start kneeling to Russia. I'd choose to die on my feet rather than on my knees.  Lol why don't you go over there then seems like you care more about it then they do. 1) Not going to fight for someone else's country if they won't fight for it themselves 2) My going there by my damn self would accomplish nothing 3) I'd happily kill some Russians if I was in the US Mil and was ordered to deploy there as an American infantryman or Marine.
I doubt you ever served. At least not for the United States military. Ex-Russian conscript perhaps? Did you enjoin being raped by your platoon Sgt. repeatedly in standard Russian style military discipline? Lol. What's the color of the boathouse at Camp Pendleton, Mr. NBCMarine? Then don't advocate killing civilians unless your ready to get your hands dirty and be on the business end of a KA52. What you are proposing is worse than anything the Russians have done there. Sorry the Ukraine Army isnt fighting yet another dirty proxy war for the powers that be. Perhaps they told Brennan to do it himself among other things as well. Once again do you think you can do a post that dosen't include one of your not so latent disturbing homosex fantasies in it? |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:32:15 PM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:32:52 PM EDT
[#14]
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When Putin takes Western Ukraine, he will say that it was part of the USSR, that the Ukrainians are Slavic brethren, and that Russians died for it during the Great Patriotic War. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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is shit happening yet? Putin just "explained" on national TV that southeastern Ukraine is really Russia, having been only ceded to Ukraine back in the empire days. I'm wondering if MikeEIB has bought a clue, or just took a new assignment. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:49:00 PM EDT
[#15]
Oh boy, Kerry's giving a speech. He's really giving the Russians some serious heck. He is apparently in agreement with someone that something needs to be done. I think he's wanting the armed but unidentified elements in Ukraine to turn in their guns and engage in a thoughtful dialogue. I wonder if Putin is laughing now?
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Posted: 4/17/2014 12:59:42 PM EDT
[#16]
I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute...
Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:08:38 PM EDT
[#17]
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I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk That doesn't make any sense to me. Bandera collaborated off and on with the Germans, his group assisted with extermination of jews and poles in Ukraine. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:16:09 PM EDT
[#18]
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Then don't advocate killing civilians unless your ready to get your hands dirty and be on the business end of a KA52. What you are proposing is worse than anything the Russians have done there. Sorry the Ukraine Army isnt fighting yet another dirty proxy war for the powers that be. Perhaps they told Brennan to do it himself among other things as well. Once again do you think you can do a post that dosen't include one of your not so latent disturbing homosex fantasies in it? Those people aren't civilians if they are trying to disarm the Ukrainian Army. They are now insurgents against the state, supported by SpetzNaz. As to the rest of the Pro-Moscow bullshit you just posted, how much is the FSB/GRU paying you per post? |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:25:56 PM EDT
[#19]
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I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? 
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:26:55 PM EDT
[#20]
(CNN) -- Diplomats meeting for emergency talks on the crisis in Ukraine issued a joint statement Thursday aimed at de-escalating the tensions and ensuring the security of all Ukrainians.
It calls for all illegal armed groups to be disarmed, all illegally seized buildings to be returned to legitimate owners, and for all occupied public spaces to be vacated. The statement followed talks lasting several hours between U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, his acting Ukrainian counterpart Andriy Deshchytsia and EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton. Illegal armed groups to be disarmed? I've only seen Ukrainians arming themselves to defend from Russia. So Kerry is helping hand Ukraine over to Russia. The RUSSIANS will not turn in arms, so that'll only affect Ukrainians who are trying to fight back. Son of a bitch. 
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:29:35 PM EDT
[#21]
Make ready for glorious peoples' news!: Four-party meeting approves document on deescalation of tensions in Ukraine
GENEVA, April 16. /ITAR-TASS/. The Geneva statement adopted at a four-party meeting on Ukraine on Thursday, April 17, calls for a national dialogue in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said after the talks. “It calls for an immediate commencement of a broad national dialogue which must be inclusive, transparent and accountable,” he said. Lavrov stressed that measures to disarm illegal armed groups and free seized buildings would apply to all regions of Ukraine without exception. “The measures we have stated concern all regions of Ukraine without exception and all problematic questions without exception,” he said... |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:30:03 PM EDT
[#22]
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Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? First, I would guess because the Russians think Jews=Israelis=Americans. Second, because the Russians might be trying to do something that they can trade to the Israelis... |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:32:02 PM EDT
[#23]
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I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Maybe we can have peace through appeasement? |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:34:00 PM EDT
[#24]
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Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? What's shocking ? Russians hate Jews and have for centuries upon centuries. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:38:28 PM EDT
[#25]
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Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? Well. To show how 'bad' the other side is when they 'catch' the perpetrators of this foulness? Considering it's happening as Ukrainian military units are approaching to take the city back...it's a possibility. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:44:42 PM EDT
[#26]
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Make ready for glorious peoples' news!: Four-party meeting approves document on deescalation of tensions in Ukraine Quote HistoryQuoted:
Make ready for glorious peoples' news!: Four-party meeting approves document on deescalation of tensions in Ukraine GENEVA, April 16. /ITAR-TASS/. The Geneva statement adopted at a four-party meeting on Ukraine on Thursday, April 17, calls for a national dialogue in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said after the talks. “It calls for an immediate commencement of a broad national dialogue which must be inclusive, transparent and accountable,” he said. Lavrov stressed that measures to disarm illegal armed groups and free seized buildings would apply to all regions of Ukraine without exception. “The measures we have stated concern all regions of Ukraine without exception and all problematic questions without exception,” he said... Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:47:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's shocking ? Russians hate Jews and have for centuries upon centuries. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? What's shocking ? Russians hate Jews and have for centuries upon centuries. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. I'm here because of it. My father's side of the family were Ashkenazi Jews living in Russia who came to America fleeing Czarist pogroms.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:48:51 PM EDT
[#28]
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Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Make ready for glorious peoples' news!: Four-party meeting approves document on deescalation of tensions in Ukraine GENEVA, April 16. /ITAR-TASS/. The Geneva statement adopted at a four-party meeting on Ukraine on Thursday, April 17, calls for a national dialogue in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said after the talks. “It calls for an immediate commencement of a broad national dialogue which must be inclusive, transparent and accountable,” he said. Lavrov stressed that measures to disarm illegal armed groups and free seized buildings would apply to all regions of Ukraine without exception. “The measures we have stated concern all regions of Ukraine without exception and all problematic questions without exception,” he said... Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? Got to have a fog machine working on all cylinders to make a big enough screen so that no one will know who started the war... |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:51:08 PM EDT
[#29]
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Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Make ready for glorious peoples' news!: Four-party meeting approves document on deescalation of tensions in Ukraine GENEVA, April 16. /ITAR-TASS/. The Geneva statement adopted at a four-party meeting on Ukraine on Thursday, April 17, calls for a national dialogue in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said after the talks. “It calls for an immediate commencement of a broad national dialogue which must be inclusive, transparent and accountable,” he said. Lavrov stressed that measures to disarm illegal armed groups and free seized buildings would apply to all regions of Ukraine without exception. “The measures we have stated concern all regions of Ukraine without exception and all problematic questions without exception,” he said... Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? Precisely. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:51:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First, I would guess because the Russians think Jews=Israelis=Americans. Second, because the Russians might be trying to do something that they can trade to the Israelis... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? First, I would guess because the Russians think Jews=Israelis=Americans. Second, because the Russians might be trying to do something that they can trade to the Israelis... |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:51:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Make ready for glorious peoples' news!: Four-party meeting approves document on deescalation of tensions in Ukraine GENEVA, April 16. /ITAR-TASS/. The Geneva statement adopted at a four-party meeting on Ukraine on Thursday, April 17, calls for a national dialogue in Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said after the talks. “It calls for an immediate commencement of a broad national dialogue which must be inclusive, transparent and accountable,” he said. Lavrov stressed that measures to disarm illegal armed groups and free seized buildings would apply to all regions of Ukraine without exception. “The measures we have stated concern all regions of Ukraine without exception and all problematic questions without exception,” he said... Isn't the Russian position that Yanukovych is still President? Can't they claim that this statement means that the new gov't has to 'free' the buildings they've 'seized'? Glad I'm not the only one that saw that connection.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 1:58:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Seriously. This Jew thing is getting out of hand. what, 70-80 years ago, this same shit started up. We need to go in heavy and slap their dicks around. We should not send some envoy to sip tea and watch staged MLP skits and observe. We should show that we are not going to stand by and let this happen again.
First they came for the Jews.... |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 2:25:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk All part of the disinformation and propaganda war. Sonoran_Tj pointed out in the other thread that the registration fee in the "official" letter is $50 US. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 3:46:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those people aren't civilians if they are trying to disarm the Ukrainian Army. They are now insurgents against the state, supported by SpetzNaz. As to the rest of the Pro-Moscow bullshit you just posted, how much is the FSB/GRU paying you per post? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Then don't advocate killing civilians unless your ready to get your hands dirty and be on the business end of a KA52. What you are proposing is worse than anything the Russians have done there. Sorry the Ukraine Army isnt fighting yet another dirty proxy war for the powers that be. Perhaps they told Brennan to do it himself among other things as well. Once again do you think you can do a post that dosen't include one of your not so latent disturbing homosex fantasies in it? Those people aren't civilians if they are trying to disarm the Ukrainian Army. They are now insurgents against the state, supported by SpetzNaz. As to the rest of the Pro-Moscow bullshit you just posted, how much is the FSB/GRU paying you per post? So Maiden is an insurgent group too then right? |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 3:51:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So Maiden is an insurgent group too then right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Then don't advocate killing civilians unless your ready to get your hands dirty and be on the business end of a KA52. What you are proposing is worse than anything the Russians have done there. Sorry the Ukraine Army isnt fighting yet another dirty proxy war for the powers that be. Perhaps they told Brennan to do it himself among other things as well. Once again do you think you can do a post that dosen't include one of your not so latent disturbing homosex fantasies in it? Those people aren't civilians if they are trying to disarm the Ukrainian Army. They are now insurgents against the state, supported by SpetzNaz. As to the rest of the Pro-Moscow bullshit you just posted, how much is the FSB/GRU paying you per post? So Maiden is an insurgent group too then right? Maiden peacefully protested. They weren't attacking Ukrainian soldiers, taking their military equipment from them, or working with a foreign country's special forces to destabilize the government. The former Ukrainian President fled while the Maiden protesters were being shot.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:11:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maiden peacefully protested. They weren't attacking Ukrainian soldiers, taking their military equipment from them, or working with a foreign country's special forces to destabilize the government. The former Ukrainian President fled while the Maiden protesters were being shot. I'd hate to see your idea of a violent protest. 
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:29:45 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd hate to see your idea of a violent protest. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140123072623-06-ukraine-0123-horizontal-gallery.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Maiden peacefully protested. They weren't attacking Ukrainian soldiers, taking their military equipment from them, or working with a foreign country's special forces to destabilize the government. The former Ukrainian President fled while the Maiden protesters were being shot. I'd hate to see your idea of a violent protest. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140123072623-06-ukraine-0123-horizontal-gallery.jpg First 
Then 
Then 
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:40:13 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/ukraine19.jpg?1386795498 Then http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/N3UaiDD7oTC6e9bsD2upEA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz03NDk-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/682594aad4347702490f6a70670084b9.jpg Then http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Radically_oriented_protesters_throwing_Molotov_cocktails_in_direction_of_Interior_troops_positions._Dynamivska_str._Euromaidan_Protests._Events_of_Jan_19,_2014-5.jpg Sure. But it's not like we saw Gandhi-esque non-violence. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:42:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Found this interesting snippet on the Euromaidan wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[122][123][124] The biggest support for the protest can be found in Kiev (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[122][125] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% are from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[126] In a poll taken on 7–8 December, 73% of protesters had committed to continue protesting in Kiev as long as needed until their demands are fulfilled.[5] This number has increased to 82% as of 3 February 2014.[126] Polls also show that the nation is divided in age: while majority of young people are pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.[127] More than 41% of protesters are ready to take part in the seizure of administrative buildings as of February, compared to 13 and 19 percent during polls on 10 and 20 December 2013. At the same time, more than 50 percent are ready to take part in the creation of independent military units, compared to 15 and 21 percent during the past studies, respectively.[126] According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.[128] In a March poll, 57% of Ukrainians said they supported the Euromaidan protests.[129] Shoulda polled GD if they wanted a rather more lock-step approval of Maidan! |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:42:57 PM EDT
[#41]
You know, if those in the eastern oblasts want to be a part of Russia so badly, and if Russia wants to protect them so badly, there's an easy solution. Load their asses up and bus them a few miles east. Then everyone can get what they want. The native Russians in Ukraine can become Russian citizens ruled by Russian government. And Ukraine can be Ukraine, made up of actual Ukrainians without a bunch of fucking Russians living in their midst and Russian troops on sovereign soil trying to dictate the situation as they see fit. Otherwise, they need to sit down, shut the fuck up and just accept that they are Russians living in a country that belongs to someone else.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:54:26 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure. But it's not like we saw Gandhi-esque non-violence. The maidan protesters were peaceful, until the security forces made it un-peaceful. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:55:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually a good summary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Maiden peacefully protested. They weren't attacking Ukrainian soldiers, taking their military equipment from them, or working with a foreign country's special forces to destabilize the government. The former Ukrainian President fled while the Maiden protesters were being shot. I'd hate to see your idea of a violent protest. http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/140123072623-06-ukraine-0123-horizontal-gallery.jpg First http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/ukraine19.jpg?1386795498 Then http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/N3UaiDD7oTC6e9bsD2upEA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz03NDk-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/682594aad4347702490f6a70670084b9.jpg Then http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Radically_oriented_protesters_throwing_Molotov_cocktails_in_direction_of_Interior_troops_positions._Dynamivska_str._Euromaidan_Protests._Events_of_Jan_19,_2014-5.jpg Actually a good summary. More disinformation as usual. Last two pics are same day when both sides escalated violence. Here are the peaceful protests almost two months prior. 
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Posted: 4/17/2014 5:00:24 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More disinformation as usual. Last two pics are same day when both sides escalated violence. Here are the peaceful protests almost two months prior. Blah blah blah. The fact is until 30 November 2013 the euromaidan protests were peaceful. Then the Berkut moved in. Berkut shot first. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 5:02:48 PM EDT
[#45]
CNN saying gun battle in progress.
ETA- maybe not, might just be CNN being CNN. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 5:51:59 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sure. But it's not like we saw Gandhi-esque non-violence. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: First http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/ukraine19.jpg?1386795498 Then http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/N3UaiDD7oTC6e9bsD2upEA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz03NDk-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/682594aad4347702490f6a70670084b9.jpg Then http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Radically_oriented_protesters_throwing_Molotov_cocktails_in_direction_of_Interior_troops_positions._Dynamivska_str._Euromaidan_Protests._Events_of_Jan_19,_2014-5.jpg Sure. But it's not like we saw Gandhi-esque non-violence. Gandhi himself said that violence was preferential to cowardice and that non-violence as a means of resistance only works when your enemy is capable of empathy or will bow to global pressure. Empathy and bowing to outside pressure are not exactly things Russians and their cronies are known for. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:25:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More disinformation as usual. Last two pics are same day when both sides escalated violence. Here are the peaceful protests almost two months prior. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Protesters_throwing_pieces_of_paving_during_and_metal_tubes_at_riot_police_during_clashes_at_Bankova_str%2C_Kiev%2C_Ukraine._December_1%2C_2013.jpg/800px-Protesters_throwing_pieces_of_paving_during_and_metal_tubes_at_riot_police_during_clashes_at_Bankova_str%2C_Kiev%2C_Ukraine._December_1%2C_2013.jpg Man, it must be all hands on deck in your GRU section, eh? |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:44:44 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man, it must be all hands on deck in your GRU section, eh? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
More disinformation as usual. Last two pics are same day when both sides escalated violence. Here are the peaceful protests almost two months prior. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Protesters_throwing_pieces_of_paving_during_and_metal_tubes_at_riot_police_during_clashes_at_Bankova_str%2C_Kiev%2C_Ukraine._December_1%2C_2013.jpg/800px-Protesters_throwing_pieces_of_paving_during_and_metal_tubes_at_riot_police_during_clashes_at_Bankova_str%2C_Kiev%2C_Ukraine._December_1%2C_2013.jpg Man, it must be all hands on deck in your GRU section, eh? They're really laying it on thick today. |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:45:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's shocking ? Russians hate Jews and have for centuries upon centuries. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm so glad the "pro-Russian militants" are here to save us from all the Right Sector neo-Nazis! Hey, wait a minute... Jews ordered to "register" in Donetsk Jesus. That's just... What possible gain does Russia have from doing that? What's shocking ? Russians hate Jews and have for centuries upon centuries. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Yep. But but but Ukraine is the anti-Semitic Nazis.... |
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Posted: 4/17/2014 8:46:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You know, if those in the eastern oblasts want to be a part of Russia so badly, and if Russia wants to protect them so badly, there's an easy solution. Load their asses up and bus them a few miles east. Then everyone can get what they want. The native Russians in Ukraine can become Russian citizens ruled by Russian government. And Ukraine can be Ukraine, made up of actual Ukrainians without a bunch of fucking Russians living in their midst and Russian troops on sovereign soil trying to dictate the situation as they see fit. Otherwise, they need to sit down, shut the fuck up and just accept that they are Russians living in a country that belongs to someone else. It's not about the people - it's about the land. The people are a mere excuse. Frankly, Russia could give two shits about the people involved. |
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