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phoen1x
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:02:29 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Natty_Bumppo:
Originally Posted By underdogII:
Originally Posted By Special-K:
Interesting times we live in.

The message 0bama is sending with the coming military budget is being heard loud and clear.




-K


Seriously are you ready to go to war against Russia? I wish the Ukraine's the best but they should realize we ain't coming to
pull their chestnuts out of the fire.


maybe not, but neither do you announce to the world that you plan to dismantle any real response from the US Military THE DAY AFTER there was a "negotiated" agreement in the Ukraine. This administration is being run by pre-schoolers.


I highly doubt that putin and the Ukrainians giv a rats ass about the US and what we do.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:02:49 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Palandine:
I sympathize, but it's not our problem. They want to be in the EU? Let the Europeans fight for them.



Peace in our time.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:04:14 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By phoen1x:
Originally Posted By Natty_Bumppo:
Originally Posted By underdogII:
Originally Posted By Special-K:
Interesting times we live in.

The message 0bama is sending with the coming military budget is being heard loud and clear.




-K


Seriously are you ready to go to war against Russia? I wish the Ukraine's the best but they should realize we ain't coming to
pull their chestnuts out of the fire.


maybe not, but neither do you announce to the world that you plan to dismantle any real response from the US Military THE DAY AFTER there was a "negotiated" agreement in the Ukraine. This administration is being run by pre-schoolers.


I highly doubt that putin and the Ukrainians giv a rats ass about the US and what we do.


And I get told I need to get out more.
That there were multiple people posting under snowleopard's account is a definite. Whether or not those people all inhabited the same body is open to conjecture.
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C-4
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:04:21 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FishTaco:
Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
How exactly is the Ukraine in our interest? Granted on a personal level I'd love see Russia get fucked royally. However, I fail to see how this is in the United States interest to interfere.; that's a European issue.


The conflict in Ukraine is bitter, violent, and complicated. U.S. meddling would likely make them much more likely to sympathize with Russia- as many in their nation already do given the vicious nature of the protestors.

Ukraine isn't a prize to win- it's an economic basket case on the verge of collapse.

Spare us your amateur musings on what the U.S. should be doing to win this deep crisis on the other side of the world.


You must have quoted the wrong person because he's actually arguing for no intervention by the U.S.
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C-4
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:09:56 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By outofbattery:
Originally Posted By Jiro:
Originally Posted By underdogII:
Originally Posted By Special-K:
Interesting times we live in.

The message 0bama is sending with the coming military budget is being heard loud and clear.
-K


Seriously are you ready to go to war against Russia? I wish the Ukraine's the best but they should realize we ain't coming to
pull their chestnuts out of the fire.


Oh, I think the Ukrainians realize it very well. Take Georgia for example. One day, they're fighting an American war for Americans, then the next day, they're on a plane back to defend their country against a Russian invasion, and the US Is all like, "So long, thanks for the help, now go die."

Not saying the US should have come to Georgia's aid, but it was a weird situation to say the least. And the world observed.


Funny how Georgians and Ukrainians fought and died for American interests in Iraq and Afghanistan... Sorry guyz,LOL #YOLO is now American realpolitik.

Is it any wonder that nobody takes the US seriously anymore?



I've heard this complaint time and again from many foreigners, even supposed U.S. allies. The perception that the U.S. can't be relied upon to "return the favor" is certainly out there.
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Chaingun
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:19:37 PM EST
The best the Ukraine could do is create trade agreements with both Russia and the EU
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Posted: 2/24/2014 6:39:44 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By C-4:

I've heard this complaint time and again from many foreigners, even supposed U.S. allies. The perception that the U.S. can't be relied upon to "return the favor" is certainly out there.


We've got a pretty bad reputation for that. It's a wonder why anyone has allied with us at all in Iraq/Afghanistan except to gain some warfighting experience.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 7:22:04 PM EST
I understand and support why countries pitched in for Iraq and Afghanistan. It was to prove themselves as willing and able allies and because 9/11 was horrendous.I think Iraq was a bill of goods but that is another matter.

However,seeing 2 wars come to inconclusive withdrawals leads many to question the value of the efforts and the leadership ability of the US government and military. Furthermore,there is the question of just how reliable the US is as all it seems to have done is bend to Putin in Georgia,over Iranian nukes,Syria and Ukraine. That idiotic overcharge button and telling Putin he could be more flexible;I don't know if it's malice or ignorance but you don't outright tell a competitor that you're going to roll over.


When an ambassador says "Fuck the EU" and the EU is effectively NATO just what message does that send? I know that the current US government is like Wednesday night open mic night at a bar. It's amateur hour and you can't expect too much but it's almost painful in being so terrible.






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Posted: 2/24/2014 7:43:47 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
How exactly is the Ukraine in our interest? Granted on a personal level I'd love see Russia get fucked royally. However, I fail to see how this is in the United States interest to interfere.; that's a European issue.


yeah, we have no dog in this fight.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 7:47:20 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FishTaco:
Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
How exactly is the Ukraine in our interest? Granted on a personal level I'd love see Russia get fucked royally. However, I fail to see how this is in the United States interest to interfere.; that's a European issue.


The conflict in Ukraine is bitter, violent, and complicated. U.S. meddling would likely make them much more likely to sympathize with Russia- as many in their nation already do given the vicious nature of the protestors.

Ukraine isn't a prize to win- it's an economic basket case on the verge of collapse.

Spare us your amateur musings on what the U.S. should be doing to win this deep crisis on the other side of the world.

Wut?
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30calTBLkid
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Posted: 2/24/2014 7:50:57 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
Originally Posted By TexasDoubleTap:
Meanwhile we are sending weapons and aid to Iran, yes Iran, who then funnels them into Syria.

You know how we like to ask the rhetorical question "how much tax is enough tax" to liberals, knowing they can't answer honestly without saying 100%?

Well, how much foreign intervention is enough foreign intervention?

Also, I keep seeing this force reduction come up and it's a little baffling.

Should we keep enough troops and gear at the ready to fight two official "hot" wars and numerous other "police actions" at all times?

Being balls deep in the entire worlds affairs seems to be a little counter intuitive to the stated conservative ideology.

If we only had special Army teams who were well versed in UW and FID, among many other skills, and could disappear in the noise...


If only they actually recruited, selected, and trained for such possibilities anymore.

I guess it was all just a dream.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 8:15:35 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Chaingun:
The best the Ukraine could do is create trade agreements with both Russia and the EU

Ukraine could be the middleman between EU and Russia's Eurasian trading bloc, trade with both sides and everyone wins. That would be a smart move for Ukraine, which means it won't happen.

Ukraine isn't getting into EU. If they were a stable country with a sound economy it would take 10 years or more to get in EU, assuming it doesn't collapse by then. Turkey won't even get in and they have a stronger economy. Belarus is a backwards command economy and their GDP per capita is 4x Ukraine.

They aren't getting into NATO either. Russia has a lease on Sevastopol until 2042. Ukraine can void agreement, make threats, do whatever they want. Russia doesn't care about their opinion or world opinion, they are not giving up that naval base.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 8:58:22 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Fatbert:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By Fatbert:
Originally Posted By poorman:
This is what will happen: Ukraine is BROKE, Russia is the only country offering to lend them billions, Russia will be in control again very soon.


If the Ukranian nationalists are smart they'd transfer Crimea back to Russia in exchange for the Russians assuming Ukranian sovereign debt.

Presto, no more pesky ethnic Russians.


I've been saying the former for some time, heck I've been sating they should offer with no strings.

But, the latter would not be true, there would still be shitloads - and overwhelming majorities in Odessa and in the East.

Don't the Russians have troops in Transdnester?

Partition the country in two now, not after 10 years of war like Yugoslavia.


I believe they do still have troops occupying that region in Moldova. When there had been talk about the possibility of a future reunion of Moldova with Romania I had wondered what the reaction would be by NATO to Russian troops on the soil of a NATO member if they refused to leave.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 9:09:14 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ar2de:
http://observationalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Ukraine_historical_vs_electoral_2010.png


There is a very sharp divide east vs west. A divided Ukraine would make sense. But politics never make sense.


The western part of Ukraine is certainly different from the east, although eventually (before the USSR conquered the newly-independent Ukraine) the east also developed nationalistic tendencies favouring separation from Russia. The western part of Ukraine has looked Westward for a long time and rather than being under Russian rule, had been for centuries under the rule of the Austrians or the Poles and one could find many non-Ukrainians, even in Kiev (where one can even find Baroque architecture, in contrast with eastern Europe); I've also heard it described that Ukrainians have a different character than the Russians. It was the east which was kept under Imperial Russian rule for a long time, but as I said even the east had a majority favouring separation by the time Ukraine became independent (Ukrainian nationalism first having arisen in the 19th century). The Soviet response, after incorporating a conquered Ukraine, was one they also used elsewhere, which was to bring in more "Great Russians" into Ukraine and at the same time ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from those regions where Russians were brought in, which is a significant part of why the eastern half of the country is more favourably disposed towards Russia.

Interestingly, I have heard that Ukrainians maintained armed resistance for a long time after WWII and that even in the mid-1960s there were pitched battles being waged between Ukrainian resistance forces and the Red Army in central Ukraine. The spirit of resistance of a part of the Ukrainians towards the Russians would seem to go back a long time.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 9:27:22 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By underdogII:
Originally Posted By Special-K:
Interesting times we live in.

The message 0bama is sending with the coming military budget is being heard loud and clear.




-K


Seriously are you ready to go to war against Russia? I wish the Ukraine's the best but they should realize we ain't coming to
pull their chestnuts out of the fire.


The point of a skillful foreign policy strategy is realizing your interests without having to choose war.
In this Obama has failed.

A free Ukraine, oriented toward Europe, is very much in the interest of the US. If our friends in Latvia, Estonia, Georgia, Poland etc see us cave now, it will have a domino effect of negative reactions against US interests.

If you can't see this, I'm not sure it's wise to be arguing foreign policy.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 9:31:05 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By damcv62:
It'll be interesting to watch. But not any of our concern.


My God, what utter stupidity. Lord help us, the USA, recover from this deficit of knowledge and understanding of what is important. Help us please, for the sake of our children, who must live in the world left by idiots who insist on playing checkers while their opponents play chess.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 9:33:04 PM EST
Should never be divided, that is how Russians operate, colonize an area and boom, its Russian now.

Look at Kaliningrad...that was german for centuries...

not anymore.

Geohans
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Posted: 2/24/2014 9:39:10 PM EST
The point of foreign policy strategy is to achieve a favorable result without having to resort to mil threats or action.

The fact that US military response is not on the table does not mean we never had options, or that nothing better could have happened.

If five years from now we are asking these same questions about Poland, then maybe some folks will remember they said Ukraine didn't matter.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 10:09:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2014 10:12:15 PM EST by boltcatch]
I think it's obvious that most of us are rooting for the Ukrainians, but we're in an increasingly poor position to really do anything about it. Our leadership's incompetence isn't limited to foreign policy.

Nobody honestly expects us to do anything but bumble around anyways.
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Posted: 2/24/2014 10:42:09 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By werepossum:
Originally Posted By Ingomsg3:Also, it will be sad to see how Obama lets them get away with it.


What if Russia started telling the US what to do about Mexico


They have for nearly three generations....just ask your local community college ENG 105 instructor what they think about American borders, language, and culture
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Posted: 2/24/2014 10:46:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/24/2014 10:47:38 PM EST by ElectricSheep556]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Jozsi:
Should never be divided, that is how Russians operate, colonize an area and boom, its Russian now.

Look at Kaliningrad...that was german for centuries...

not anymore.


Losing sucks. Don't lose.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:04:02 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By 30calTBLkid:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
Originally Posted By TexasDoubleTap:
Meanwhile we are sending weapons and aid to Iran, yes Iran, who then funnels them into Syria.

You know how we like to ask the rhetorical question "how much tax is enough tax" to liberals, knowing they can't answer honestly without saying 100%?

Well, how much foreign intervention is enough foreign intervention?

Also, I keep seeing this force reduction come up and it's a little baffling.

Should we keep enough troops and gear at the ready to fight two official "hot" wars and numerous other "police actions" at all times?

Being balls deep in the entire worlds affairs seems to be a little counter intuitive to the stated conservative ideology.

If we only had special Army teams who were well versed in UW and FID, among many other skills, and could disappear in the noise...


If only they actually recruited, selected, and trained for such possibilities anymore.

I guess it was all just a dream.


Are you suggesting we maintain any such capability on par to what 10th group had in the '60s?
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:10:29 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By phoen1x:
Originally Posted By Ingomsg3:
In on what everyone thinks will happen. I've not seen any stories posted yet, but the Russians are not going to let a port slip away. Also, it will be sad to see how Obama lets them get away with it.

It not any of Obama's business, Ukraine can take care of itself. All the Ukrainians have to do is make a lease deal with Outin and its done.



How the hell do you think Yanukovych paid for his faux Greek ruins and pet ostriches?

Against public sentiment,he extended the lease from. 2017 to the 2040s. Why? I think it's pretty clear,so he could have faux Greek ruins and let ostriches.

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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:14:29 AM EST
It will take longer than many think; a year or two I bet, but the end result will be eastern Ukraine and Crimea to Russia as newly formed states.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:16:58 AM EST
Fuck Obama.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:17:28 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Tomislav:
It will take longer than many think; a year or two I bet, but the end result will be eastern Ukraine and Crimea to Russia as newly formed states.


That's not in Russia's interests. Their interests lie in perpetuating perpetual non-resolution.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:22:47 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By Tomislav:
It will take longer than many think; a year or two I bet, but the end result will be eastern Ukraine and Crimea to Russia as newly formed states.


That's not in Russia's interests. Their interests lie in perpetuating perpetual non-resolution.



I think they'll have a special interest in Crimea, due to Sebastapol, until their other port is ready, but good point. A fractious Ukraine fulfills Russian needs as well, if not better, and at a fraction of the cost.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:30:37 AM EST
When you taunt the bear you better have the means to keep the bear out of your house. Hell Ukraine sold us all their Mosins.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 2:49:07 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By Tomislav:
It will take longer than many think; a year or two I bet, but the end result will be eastern Ukraine and Crimea to Russia as newly formed states.


That's not in Russia's interests. Their interests lie in perpetuating perpetual non-resolution.




Exactly.

A - it would be embarrassing to hold a vote and lose. The 2010 voting map showing solid support for the Party of Regions does not accurately show who would want to become Russian.

B- it's cheaper to leave 10 million Russians as the Ukraine's problem. An analogy might be trying to give Detroit to Canada. Russia doesn't need or want Ukraine's rust belt and be on the hook for bringing a region of vast poverty 40 years up to date.

Furthermore,they're a more effective political tool and removing the pretext and threat of "protecting Russians" isn't something Moscow wants off the table,even if it's not taken exceptionally seriously.

Again,I'll use the comparison to poor blacks in the US. Does the Democratic Party actually want them to fully integrate and be upwardly mobile socially and economically where they may begin to make other political choices or is it better to have a sure thing because they are dependent? That is the actual way Moscow sees Russians who had been moved into other Soviet Republics. The plan was for those regions to become Russified rather than assimilate and lots of those older folks have no desire to go back to Russia and no desire to fully integrate. What worries Moscow though is that younger people ARE learning a language other than Russian and are not hoping for a return of the USSR. If they wait too long, the old real Communists will die off and the younger generations who just want to live the American-Western European dream will be in the majority.


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Posted: 2/25/2014 8:04:36 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FishTaco:
Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
How exactly is the Ukraine in our interest? Granted on a personal level I'd love see Russia get fucked royally. However, I fail to see how this is in the United States interest to interfere.; that's a European issue.


The conflict in Ukraine is bitter, violent, and complicated. U.S. meddling would likely make them much more likely to sympathize with Russia- as many in their nation already do given the vicious nature of the protestors.

Ukraine isn't a prize to win- it's an economic basket case on the verge of collapse.

Spare us your amateur musings on what the U.S. should be doing to win this deep crisis on the other side of the world.



.?????
Doz I be reading wrong??
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Posted: 2/25/2014 8:21:53 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Special-K:
Interesting times we live in.

The message 0bama is sending with the coming military budget is being heard loud and clear.




-K


Any different than when Clinton was in. We need cuts across the board and yes the FSA should be first but that is just not reality given the corruption.
McStain was spewing that if the cuts are just spent on domestic we will be in a real pickle.
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Posted: 2/25/2014 5:01:40 PM EST
Will someone invent a self cleaning gun!
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Russia puts troops on alert, while Obama talks about having the smallest military since WWII.
Will someone invent a self cleaning gun!
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[Last Edit: 2/26/2014 3:46:45 AM EST by vintovka]
If we only had special Army teams who were well versed in UW and FID, among many other skills, and could disappear in the noise...

Perhaps a small band of men that spoke the local language and could operate independently.


unfortunately we have no such force, we can however do DA in English if we have CAS.


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Interfax reports that Putin ordered a readiness exercise of Russian airborne units, transports, and strategic aviation.

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[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By RVAguy:
A few thousand protesters do not speak for a country of millions. Soros, the same guy that brought us Obama, is causing this shit. The main forces of the 'protest' are wanting EU inclusion, not autonomy.


Good to see you again, Primorsky!
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Posted: 2/26/2014 3:45:17 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

If only they actually recruited, selected, and trained for such possibilities anymore.


Busy killing terrorists, yo!

If only we had a foreign policy muscular enough to use SF to execute it.
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[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By RVAguy:
A few thousand protesters do not speak for a country of millions. Soros, the same guy that brought us Obama, is causing this shit. The main forces of the 'protest' are wanting EU inclusion, not autonomy.


Good to see you again, Primorsky!


I get the same shit at work... someone told Alex Jones. Alex Jones tells them. Anyone ever seen Alex Jones and George Soros together at the same time?
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[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

And I get told I need to get out more.


If they mean "out of GD" I think that is good advice for us all
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Posted: 2/26/2014 3:48:07 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By C-4:

I've heard this complaint time and again from many foreigners, even supposed U.S. allies. The perception that the U.S. can't be relied upon to "return the favor" is certainly out there.


No one like muscular aggressive US foreign policy, until its gone. What was Obama's overseas approval rating?

Even our allies (outside of the Anglosphere) have wanted a multipolar world for decades. They are getting it. Now, let's see them enjoy it.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 3:54:06 AM EST
(Russian Accent) "In Soviet Russia, Cold War chemical & biological agents kill you....." But then the U.S.strikes back with nukes.......

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Posted: 2/26/2014 3:56:15 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By jerrwhy01:
How exactly is the Ukraine in our interest? Granted on a personal level I'd love see Russia get fucked royally. However, I fail to see how this is in the United States interest to interfere.; that's a European issue.



Old enough to know that was almost the exact phrasing used before WWII by LOTS of people.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:00:36 AM EST
Cold hard truth is we can't afford to do much about it anyways with or without military budget cuts. Our deficit's in astronomical figures, we have more to worry about in our own house .
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Jahdai42
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:02:58 AM EST
I'm sick of U.S. soldiers getting shot/blown up in fuckstain provinces over political bullshit that adds no value to american life. We need to pick our fights better, what is our goal in Ukraine, political, financial, ego?
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:06:53 AM EST
Putin has ordered very serious troop movements, in the guise of "exercises," in two phases between now and March 3. I'll bet he moves to occupy eastern Ukraine (including the Crimea) and there's not a thing anybody can do about it. That was the point of all the recent developments that have taken place until now -- reclaiming Russia's historical expansion towards the Black Sea. Putin seems to be an excellent chess player, unlike the feckless leaders of the West.

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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:15:56 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Jahdai42:
I'm sick of U.S. soldiers getting shot/blown up in fuckstain provinces over political bullshit that adds no value to american life. We need to pick our fights better, what is our goal in Ukraine, political, financial, ego?


And where are you seeing anyone suggesting military intervention in the Ukraine at this point?
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:18:50 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By kudzu630:
Originally Posted By Jahdai42:
I'm sick of U.S. soldiers getting shot/blown up in fuckstain provinces over political bullshit that adds no value to american life. We need to pick our fights better, what is our goal in Ukraine, political, financial, ego?


And where are you seeing anyone suggesting military intervention in the Ukraine at this point?


Isolationist GD, where all foreign policy is a binary choice between Fortress America and Normandy.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:25:03 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ar2de:
http://observationalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Ukraine_historical_vs_electoral_2010.png


There is a very sharp divide east vs west. A divided Ukraine would make sense. But politics never make sense.

They're just like the Russkies in a lot of ways. The eternal slavophile vs western oriented debate continues. Splitting the country might make sense if that map is accurate. Looks almost like an ethnic boundry. There's not a lot of overlap.
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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:26:09 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By kudzu630:
Originally Posted By Jahdai42:
I'm sick of U.S. soldiers getting shot/blown up in fuckstain provinces over political bullshit that adds no value to american life. We need to pick our fights better, what is our goal in Ukraine, political, financial, ego?


And where are you seeing anyone suggesting military intervention in the Ukraine at this point?


Isolationist GD, where all foreign policy is a binary choice between Fortress America and Normandy.



took the words out of my mouth (fingers?)

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Posted: 2/26/2014 4:30:21 AM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Ingomsg3:
Russia puts troops on alert, while Obama talks about having the smallest military since WWII.


Why do we care about what they do in Ukraine? What is our compelling national interest that's at risk there?

Why should American lives be sacrificed to protect what Ukrainians should be protecting?
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