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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:29:36 PM EDT
Thread is up http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1591162_Federalist___Anti_Federalist_Reading_Thread.html
Poll questions A. Approximately how many have you read? B. Would you be interested in a thread where arfcommers could read and discuss a few papers every week? Also, include below why you read them; high school, private/home school, college, personal desire etc... I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most Americans haven't read all of them. I know I haven't.   I'm sure a sizable amount of the population hasn't read a single one of them. I mostly blame the school system. My high school learnin' never even crossed paths with the writings. If it wasn't for my interest in American history, I probably never would have read any of them. This might seem trivial but once you start to read them, you realize how crucial they are to understanding the founders' thoughts and mindset. For those unfamiliar, the Federalist Papers were essays written arguing in favor of adopting the Constitution. Some examples of the wisdom within It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be to-morrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule, which is little known, and less fixed? #62 Every new regulation concerning commerce or revenue, or in any way affecting the value of the different species of property, presents a new harvest to those who watch the change, and can trace its consequences; a harvest, reared not by themselves, but by the toils and cares of the great body of their fellow-citizens. This is a state of things in which it may be said with some truth that laws are made for the few, not for the many. #62 The apportionment of taxes on the various descriptions of property is an act which seems to require the most exact impartiality; yet there is, perhaps, no legislative act in which greater opportunity and temptation are given to a predominant party to trample on the rules of justice. Every shilling with which they overburden the inferior number, is a shilling saved to their own pockets. #10 A rage for paper money, for an abolition of debts, for an equal division of property, or for any other improper or wicked project, will be less apt to pervade the whole body of the Union than a particular member of it; #10 Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority. #10 But a minute detail of particular rights is certainly far less applicable to a Constitution like that under consideration, which is merely intended to regulate the general political interests of the nation, than to a constitution which has the regulation of every species of personal and private concerns. #84 http://constitution.org/c5/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifederalist_Papers http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/anti-federalist-papers Audiobooks http://www.booksshouldbefree.com/book/the-federalist-papers-by-alexander-hamilton-john-jay-and-james-madison (thanks to CTRob65) https://librivox.org/the-anti-federalist-papers-by-patrick-henry/ Free Ebook Versions http://www.amazon.com/Federalist-Papers-Alexander-Hamilton-ebook/dp/B004TPP976/ http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1404 http://webstersdictionary1828.com/ Apps https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/constitution-federalist-papers/id378120928 Additional Resources http://teachingamericanhistory.org/ratification/timeline-federalist/ http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/story-of-america http://loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html http://www.constitution.org/elliot.htm http://avalon.law.yale.edu/default.asp The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand http://oll.libertyfund.org/ http://mises.org/Literature |
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:37:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Maybe in team, not on GD. I would rather watch Gabby Giffords finger paint than have a discussion about something like this on GD, the stupid here burns worse than what LetherfaceY2K is going to catch from Snowleopard.
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:38:03 PM EDT
[#2]
ARFCOM CAN READ?
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:44:23 PM EDT
[#3]
A few, about 7-8.
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:44:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ARFCOM CAN READ? Yes, you should try it. 
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:52:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, you should try it. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ARFCOM CAN READ? Yes, you should try it. |
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:58:35 PM EDT
[#6]
I've read a dozen of them, selected by an instructor.
#10 is the most important. |
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Posted: 2/3/2014 11:59:01 PM EDT
[#7]
I bought a book off Amazon that has the Federalist papers, annotated. Pretty good read.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:01:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I bought a book off Amazon that has the Federalist papers, annotated. Pretty good read. The American Patriots Handbook. Small and in hard back, the only irony of it, it's printed in China 
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:04:00 AM EDT
[#9]
edit: apparently too OT for TML stalkers.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:14:32 AM EDT
[#10]
...
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:41:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Who would of thought, people already trashing this thread. OP note that many who post on arfcom really could care less they are often DU trolls or people who really do not belive in the principles of the Constitution. As of late it has been getting much worse. I applaud you for your effort. But this place is becoming less and less a place for people who give a damn about the constitution. It has been hijacked. Good luck either way.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:43:23 AM EDT
[#12]
JD just call me out ................................
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:53:05 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who would of thought, people already trashing this thread. OP note that many who post on arfcom really could care less they are often DU trolls or people who really do not belive in the principles of the Constitution. As of late it has been getting much worse. I applaud you for your effort. But this place is becoming less and less a place for people who give a damn about the constitution. It has been hijacked. Good luck either way. The only DU trolls are people who come in here and act like comic book cut-out puritans and do their best to alienate others. I've been here for a long time and have been 100% consistent over the years ( too old to change ) . For the record, I've been bitching about our slide into Constitutional illegality the entire time. Lighten up, Francis! |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:57:32 AM EDT
[#14]
 |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 1:24:19 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm taking "Origins of the US Constitution" this quarter and it's pretty eye opening. The framers were not who you'd think they were in some respects. Some of them were flat out nationalists who wanted to all but do away with states rights.
It's also interesting to see the evolution from English constitutions, colonial charters, to our constitution. You can see that it was a gradual evolution, rather than some completely revolutionary document penned from the mind of Madison. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 1:27:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm taking "Origins of the US Constitution" this quarter and it's pretty eye opening. The framers were not who you'd think they were in some respects. Some of them were flat out nationalists who wanted to all but do away with states rights. It's also interesting to see the evolution from English constitutions, colonial charters, to our constitution. You can see that it was a gradual evolution, rather than some completely revolutionary document penned from the mind of Madison. Have you read Bailyn yet? |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 1:27:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you read Bailyn yet? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm taking "Origins of the US Constitution" this quarter and it's pretty eye opening. The framers were not who you'd think they were in some respects. Some of them were flat out nationalists who wanted to all but do away with states rights. It's also interesting to see the evolution from English constitutions, colonial charters, to our constitution. You can see that it was a gradual evolution, rather than some completely revolutionary document penned from the mind of Madison. Have you read Bailyn yet? Yeah. Dryer than eating sawdust. Edit: I've only read "The Origins of American Politics" thus far. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 1:35:51 AM EDT
[#18]
tag
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Posted: 2/4/2014 1:46:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: edit: apparently too OT for TML stalkers. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 2:47:11 AM EDT
[#20]
I dowloaded the Federalist Papers and listen to them whenever I'm in my man cave reloading or cleaning guns. This site has all the important documents for free.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 2:50:20 AM EDT
[#21]
A. All of them.
B. Quite 
My favorite quote from #34: Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others. Who could have imagined at the conclusion of the last war that France and Britain, wearied and exhausted as they both were, would so soon have looked with so hostile an aspect upon each other? To judge from the history of mankind, we shall be compelled to conclude that the fiery and destructive passions of war reign in the human breast with much more powerful sway than the mild and beneficent sentiments of peace; and that to model our political systems upon speculations of lasting tranquillity, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character. (emphasis added) ETA: Team would be a better place for it, for sure. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:02:24 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I dowloaded the Federalist Papers and listen to them whenever I'm in my man cave reloading or cleaning guns. This site has all the important documents for free. Thanks for the link |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:30:03 AM EDT
[#23]
you need to read them to understand the mindset, meaning, and intent of the words in the constitution. It should be required reading, but I'm sure mutligender diversity race rainbows are more important to learn about in school.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:35:48 AM EDT
[#24]
Yes, I have read both Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers. Very thick reading with complicated political theory in spades.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:40:37 AM EDT
[#25]
Yes, numerous times.
The Anti-Federalist peppers are more interesting. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:45:16 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe in team, not on GD. I would rather watch Gabby Giffords finger paint than have a discussion about something like this on GD, the stupid here burns worse than what LetherfaceY2K is going to catch from Snowleopard. First post nails it. The real question for the actual discussion among adults is "Have you read any of the Anti-Federalist arguments, and do you find them compelling/prescient?". |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:48:04 AM EDT
[#27]
I had to read some for a class decades ago. I did recently buy the Federalist Papers and the Anti Federalist Papers, so I need to get off my lazy ass and read them.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 3:52:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First post nails it. The real question for the actual discussion among adults is "Have you read any of the Anti-Federalist arguments, and do you find them compelling/prescient?". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Maybe in team, not on GD. I would rather watch Gabby Giffords finger paint than have a discussion about something like this on GD, the stupid here burns worse than what LetherfaceY2K is going to catch from Snowleopard. First post nails it. The real question for the actual discussion among adults is "Have you read any of the Anti-Federalist arguments, and do you find them compelling/prescient?". Going with this. I read both the Federalist and Anti-Federalist Papers long ago as a kid. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:13:18 AM EDT
[#29]
I have them, but have only read a couple.
I will admit that I prefer to read for fun. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:15:03 AM EDT
[#30]
I once used Alexander Hamilton to argue for Federalism in a college paper.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:20:39 AM EDT
[#31]
I read a bunch back in HS history but it's been a while.
Might be interesting but I don't have a whole lot of spare time these days. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:29:55 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A. All of them. B. Quite
My favorite quote from #34: (emphasis added) ETA: Team would be a better place for it, for sure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
A. All of them. B. Quite
My favorite quote from #34: Let us recollect that peace or war will not always be left to our option; that however moderate or unambitious we may be, we cannot count upon the moderation, or hope to extinguish the ambition of others. Who could have imagined at the conclusion of the last war that France and Britain, wearied and exhausted as they both were, would so soon have looked with so hostile an aspect upon each other? To judge from the history of mankind, we shall be compelled to conclude that the fiery and destructive passions of war reign in the human breast with much more powerful sway than the mild and beneficent sentiments of peace; and that to model our political systems upon speculations of lasting tranquillity, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character. (emphasis added) ETA: Team would be a better place for it, for sure. Here is mine. Good for a belly laugh. FEDERALIST No. 17 The Same Subject Continued (The Insufficiency of the Present Confederation to Preserve the Union) For the Independent Journal. Wednesday, December 5, 1787 HAMILTON To the People of the State of New York: AN OBJECTION, of a nature different from that which has been stated and answered, in my last address, may perhaps be likewise urged against the principle of legislation for the individual citizens of America. It may be said that it would tend to render the government of the Union too powerful, and to enable it to absorb those residuary authorities, which it might be judged proper to leave with the States for local purposes. Allowing the utmost latitude to the love of power which any reasonable man can require, I confess I am at a loss to discover what temptation the persons intrusted with the administration of the general government could ever feel to divest the States of the authorities of that description. The regulation of the mere domestic police of a State appears to me to hold out slender allurements to ambition. Commerce, finance, negotiation, and war seem to comprehend all the objects which have charms for minds governed by that passion; and all the powers necessary to those objects ought, in the first instance, to be lodged in the national depository. The administration of private justice between the citizens of the same State, the supervision of agriculture and of other concerns of a similar nature, all those things, in short, which are proper to be provided for by local legislation, can never be desirable cares of a general jurisdiction. It is therefore improbable that there should exist a disposition in the federal councils to usurp the powers with which they are connected; because the attempt to exercise those powers would be as troublesome as it would be nugatory; and the possession of them, for that reason, would contribute nothing to the dignity, to the importance, or to the splendor of the national government. Bwah hah ha. New sig line attached. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:32:13 AM EDT
[#33]
The recommendation from others, to put a thread in Team, is a good one.
The lack of respect from other people in GD, who tend to act like cave men, will likely ruin the thread quickly. I'm very interested in it, myself. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:39:57 AM EDT
[#34]
If you are going to take the time to read the Federalist Papers then please take the time to read the Anti Federalist Papers.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 4:54:52 AM EDT
[#35]
All of them. I majored in Political Science.
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:07:58 AM EDT
[#36]
I have read them up into the sixties, and am taking a break at the moment.
Ful of wisdom and intentions, I wish I could recall and quote them all. 
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:30:17 AM EDT
[#37]
Read them. No, not as part of some coursework either.
Also read the Anti-Federalist papers... http://www.constitution.org/afp.htm ConCon debate minutes... http://www.constitution.org/dfc/dfc_0000.htm Debates and Minutes of the first couple of Continental Congresses... http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwjc.html Elliot's Debates... REQUIRED READING FOR ANYONE ARGUING CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLES. http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwed.html Literally, if you haven't read the actual State debates they had while coming up with the provisions in the Constitution, the limits therein, and why we ended up with a Bill of Rights... Then you are probably wrong on a large number of things... |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:50:40 AM EDT
[#38]
I would buy a membership to experience such a thread. Someone please email or PM me when and if it comes to fruition.
I have read some of them...they give me a sad when I wonder where such statesmen are today. They are all bought and sold, or so idealogically tainted by those who are as to be ineffective. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:53:51 AM EDT
[#39]
I read all of them in college. They are interesting to discuss with people capable of understanding them, as such GD is not the place. Now what time does Duck Dynasty come on?
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:56:44 AM EDT
[#40]
several, a few in high school, a few in history classes in college, and a few as part of the free constitutional course from hillsdale college. <the hillsdale course are GREAT!>
i'd certainly be interested in reading some posts by scholars on them. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 5:57:55 AM EDT
[#41]
tag........
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Posted: 2/4/2014 6:00:33 AM EDT
[#42]
I've read them all, and would like to re-read them. Talk about gaining a perspective on what our Founders were thinking.....
Federalist Papers |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 6:02:09 AM EDT
[#43]
27-29 and 46 should be required reading for gun owners, i.e. citizens. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 6:47:02 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Literally, if you haven't read the actual State debates they had while coming up with the provisions in the Constitution, the limits therein, and why we ended up with a Bill of Rights... Then you are probably wrong on a large number of things... I've read a few and this guy speaks the truth. Understanding the arguments for and against the BOR is a very important topic. Understanding the 9th and 10th especially so. Sadly, both Federalist and Anti-Federalists worst fears came to fruition. Mostly because the 9th and 10th are completely ignored. I read Restoring the Lost Constitution: The Presumption of Liberty by Randy E Barnett a few years ago and I think he did a decent job outlining the Federalist and Anti-Federalists positions, their thoughts and beliefs. It was kinda dry and long winded at times but, overall an important read for me. I never believed the BOR granted any right and growing up all the varying exceptions to those amendments seemed like a risky idea. I guess I was born/raised with a Federalist mindset, so to speak. That book gave me the knowledge and arguments to back up my beliefs. I wouldn't say the Federalists were naive by any measure but, I think the Anti-Federalists had a better grasp of the nature of man. They were two very different ideological camps. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 11:45:19 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe in team, not on GD. I would rather watch Gabby Giffords finger paint than have a discussion about something like this on GD, the stupid here burns worse than what LetherfaceY2K is going to catch from Snowleopard. You may be on to something. On the other hand, I'd also like to reach as many people as possible. Maybe a companion thread in Team? We'll come up with something. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 11:49:05 AM EDT
[#46]
Political Science degree, so, yes I have read through the entire thing at least once and many of them multiple times.
Should be required reading for citizenship or at minimum political office. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 11:51:13 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah. Dryer than eating sawdust. Edit: I've only read "The Origins of American Politics" thus far. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm taking "Origins of the US Constitution" this quarter and it's pretty eye opening. The framers were not who you'd think they were in some respects. Some of them were flat out nationalists who wanted to all but do away with states rights. It's also interesting to see the evolution from English constitutions, colonial charters, to our constitution. You can see that it was a gradual evolution, rather than some completely revolutionary document penned from the mind of Madison. Have you read Bailyn yet? Yeah. Dryer than eating sawdust. Edit: I've only read "The Origins of American Politics" thus far. The important one is The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 11:59:24 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: edit: apparently too OT for TML stalkers. Doesn't bother me, free bumps are free bumps. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:01:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dowloaded the Federalist Papers and listen to them whenever I'm in my man cave reloading or cleaning guns. This site has all the important documents for free. Thanks! I put the link in the OP. |
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Posted: 2/4/2014 12:13:44 PM EDT
[#50]
I read the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers.
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