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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:50:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


I already answered that question.

You might want to believe that "For the most part everyone else posting in here knows that.", but many of the vitriolic, nasty replies here belie your statement. People are going ape-shit in this thread towards me, as if speaking the truth on the topic is like crucifying Christ a 2nd time. And like I said before, after reading the 5+ page thread about the herders, it was clear to me that most people do believe that the book represents what actually happened.

So, I started this thread.

ETA; Of course a Hollywood movie is a dramatic account of the truth. The book being written, published and marketed as the truth is the real issue.
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By smithc6:You just did by listing them, making the statement that the book and movie (both of which Marcus was involved in) weren't fact they were fiction. For the most part everyone else posting in here knows that. It was a way for Marcus to get his story out to as many people out there, mostly to honor his fallen shipmates, without it being a list of facts.

My question to you is why does it matter so much to you?


I already answered that question.

You might want to believe that "For the most part everyone else posting in here knows that.", but many of the vitriolic, nasty replies here belie your statement. People are going ape-shit in this thread towards me, as if speaking the truth on the topic is like crucifying Christ a 2nd time. And like I said before, after reading the 5+ page thread about the herders, it was clear to me that most people do believe that the book represents what actually happened.

So, I started this thread.

ETA; Of course a Hollywood movie is a dramatic account of the truth. The book being written, published and marketed as the truth is the real issue.
Your not paying fucking attention youngster. Most who are interested in the subject know the truth. Many who enjoyed the book and the movie don't know the truth and are not interested in gaining it. Collectively, none of us care. Shut up already.

Shouldn't you be calling Rainer and tilting at their windmill Mr. Quixote?
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:50:50 AM EST
I recall a thread identical to this one a couple of weeks back.

What I still don't understand is why Victory Point is regarded as gospel and Lone Survivor as bullshit fiction?

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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:51:06 AM EST
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Originally Posted By smithc6:Still, if people believe that, why does it matter so much to you?
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I answered that question already. Did you miss my answer?

Let me ask you; if you read a book that was incorrect, and you went on and on talking about it, wouldn't you eventually want someone to inform you of that?

Or are you just cool with being left to your own ignorance?

Sure, call me a crusader....whatever. I'm a fan of the truth, so what does that matter to you?


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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:52:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Pvt_Becker:


You do realize .300 Win Mag uses 7.62mm projectiles right?
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Originally Posted By Pvt_Becker:
Originally Posted By USMC_Dad:


From the book:

"and the heavy, powerful 300 Win Mag bolt-action .308 caliber rifle"




You do realize .300 Win Mag uses 7.62mm projectiles right?


Actually, the .300 Win Mag uses 7.82mm diameter projectiles.

The bore (land diameter) is 7.62 or .300". Groove diameter and diameter of the projectile is 7.82mm or .308".

Just to be accurate.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:53:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Eight_Ring:
I'd be curious to know WHY the account was fictionalized.

What was the purpose of that, and why did the highers sign off on it?
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"Higher" don't have to sign off on some authors embellishment?
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:54:15 AM EST
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Originally Posted By captainpooby:
I just finished "Victory Point" and while it tells the story of the larger operation that "Lone Survivor" was part of, I don't recall it getting into the details of what happened to Luttrell's team. Nobody could tell that story except Luttrell himself.

How anybody could point to a book written by someone who never spoke to ML, and doesn't contain any details about what happened to his team, as somehow proving Luttrell's book is fiction is beyond me. I don't recall reading anything in VP that "disproved" anything in Luttrell's book.
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This.

I'll take ML's account over the account of some dude who was there writing a book about the larger operation and not the specific event. The section that covers the ambush and aftermath isn't even two chapters and to me makes a lot of assumptions.

I.e. The RPG gunner next to Shah in the video who is "undoubtedly the man who would shoot down the MH-47 a few hours after the footage of their descent was shot." - Victory Point pg. 165

There's always more than one side to a story and Hollywood rarely gets it right but until proven otherwise, I'll stick with the account from the guy on the ground.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:55:36 AM EST

In, need more popcorn!
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:57:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2014 7:01:46 AM EST by NoVaRight]
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Originally Posted By aardvark_ratnick:Your not paying fucking attention youngster. Most who are interested in the subject know the truth. Many who enjoyed the book and the movie don't know the truth and are not interested in gaining it. Collectively, none of us care. Shut up already.

Shouldn't you be calling Rainer and tilting at their windmill Mr. Quixote?
View Quote


Hey, if you don't care, then shut the fuck up and go somewhere else. I love how you're all ready to speak for everyone on AR15.com, and assume that everyone else likes to remain ignorant, and "don't know the truth and are not interested in gaining it". Don't like the topic of this thread? There are others for you to shit in.

That goes for the rest of you that don't want to do anything but act like fucking assholes. Go somewhere else, and leave this thread to those that would like to discuss what actually happened. No one is forcing you to post here, so you can collectively go somewhere else and play a nice, friendly game of "hide-and-go-fuck-yourself".

Good lord, but this is like talking to a bunch of pouty, bitchy little children who just got told that Santa wasn't real. Nothing but a bunch of whimpering little kids.




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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:58:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MikeE23666:
I recall a thread identical to this one a couple of weeks back.

What I still don't understand is why Victory Point is regarded as gospel and Lone Survivor as bullshit fiction?

View Quote
One matches known facts and the other doesn't. The firefight was videotaped by the other survivors of the encounter, AARs are out there, and for the most part they match Victory Point and not Lone Survivor. I know it is sometimes hard to accept that our country participates in military propaganda to fire up the public, but after Jessica Lynch and Pat Tillman you have to be a fool to take everything at face value.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:59:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2014 7:02:05 AM EST by joker581]
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:

Edited-Please do not quote COC violations-joker581



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quoted meltdown
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 6:59:06 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


No, were you?
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By brown424:
To the OP
Were you there?


No, were you?



He is not the one parading around as a know-it-all.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:00:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2014 7:02:56 AM EST by joker581]
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:01:18 AM EST
At what point did a drone arrive on scene, if ever, and will that footage ever be released?
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:01:36 AM EST
OP you do realize that not all the truth goes into "official military records" do you not? you do know that hundreds if not thousands of military personnel have been killed or injuries in battles that never officially occurred in places that they were not supposed to officially be, do you not?


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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:02:18 AM EST
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Originally Posted By joker581:
Shit
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You edited yourself?


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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:03:05 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DarkNite:


So you're saying that the goat herder thing likely never happened, and was a figment of Patrick Robinson's fevered imagination. Yet Marcus has stated repeatedly that it happened. So is Marcus lying or not? If he is, who says so and why? I'll take the Readers Digest version.
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Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By Wolverine1776:
Instead of posting vague questions that you don't expect us to know, how about you just state your reasoning on why the book is a work of fiction?


Go to the link I provided, buy the book, and see for yourself.

I honestly have no skin in this. I just saw 5 pages of people arguing over something that in all likelihood never happened, and thought many people were miss-informed.

Fuck me for trying to be helpful.


So you're saying that the goat herder thing likely never happened, and was a figment of Patrick Robinson's fevered imagination. Yet Marcus has stated repeatedly that it happened. So is Marcus lying or not? If he is, who says so and why? I'll take the Readers Digest version.


He's talking about the actual operation AARs that said the team was engaged by a squad of TB, not hundreds. That was going off of UAV feeds and air surveillance.

IRRC There was also a lot of drama because the team ignored equipment and other operational guidance that the marines gave going in. I read about it on SOCnet.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:03:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2014 7:04:27 AM EST by Pvt_Becker]
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:


Actually, the .300 Win Mag uses 7.82mm diameter projectiles.

The bore (land diameter) is 7.62 or .300". Groove diameter and diameter of the projectile is 7.82mm or .308".

Just to be accurate.
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Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876:
Originally Posted By Pvt_Becker:
Originally Posted By USMC_Dad:


From the book:

"and the heavy, powerful 300 Win Mag bolt-action .308 caliber rifle"




You do realize .300 Win Mag uses 7.62mm projectiles right?


Actually, the .300 Win Mag uses 7.82mm diameter projectiles.

The bore (land diameter) is 7.62 or .300". Groove diameter and diameter of the projectile is 7.82mm or .308".

Just to be accurate.


Your right, after I posted it I realized what I should have wrote. .308 projectiles rather than 7.62.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:03:33 AM EST
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:04:20 AM EST
OP, your obsession with this seems a bit...unhealthy shall I say? Whether you like it or not (and I know you will of course deny it), you come off as jealous and having very low self-esteem. This isn't about the "truth" as you stated multiple times, but it's more about you shouting from the rooftops, hey people, look at me and how much smarter and discerning than you I am!

Find something more productive to do with your time. And before you offer a rebuttal about me and my time--I'm killing a few minutes on my lunch break and this thread has been highly entertaining.



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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:04:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Hyperformer:

He is not the one parading around as a know-it-all.
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Originally Posted By Hyperformer:
Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By brown424:
To the OP
Were you there?


No, were you?

He is not the one parading around as a know-it-all.


I'm stating facts, and opinions derived from the available facts. If you have a problem with that, I don't know what to say.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:04:39 AM EST
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Originally Posted By GIR-101:
Oh, right, and I bet Saving Private Ryan never happened either!
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Blasphemy!
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:06:50 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 4thbreak:
At what point did a drone arrive on scene, if ever, and will that footage ever be released?
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There was no drones, because Shah was not an HVT.

Before the killing of the SEALs and the SEAL/160th SOAR, Shah was considered a low-level ACM/insurgent. He video-taped his ambush of the SEALs, posted in on-line to get more funding and recruits, then returned to Afghanistan with a much larger force.

That force was then engaged and effectively destroyed by Marines during operation Whalers.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:06:54 AM EST
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:07:26 AM EST
OP - What is your main goal here? Do you want everyone to just admit you're right and thank you for the enlightenment? If so, I'd wager that you not receive satisfaction.

Sometimes in life, you have to realize that not everyone believes the same "truths" and simply agree to disagree. Whether it's politics, religion or, in this case, military actions that will never be fully brought to light, there will not be universal agreement. To insist on such an outcome is foolhardy at best.

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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:07:30 AM EST
We're getting close to a complete meltdown, guys.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:08:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By YAT_YAS:
We're getting close to a complete meltdown, guys.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:09:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Thachman:
OP, your obsession with this seems a bit...unhealthy shall I say? Whether you like it or not (and I know you will of course deny it), you come off as jealous and having very low self-esteem. This isn't about the "truth" as you stated multiple times, but it's more about you shouting from the rooftops, hey people, look at me and how much smarter and discerning than you I am!

Find something more productive to do with your time. And before you offer a rebuttal about me and my time--I'm killing a few minutes on my lunch break and this thread has been highly entertaining.
View Quote


Whatever you choose to read into my posts, is simply that; what you choose to read into my posts. There are others posting here that have also looked into the other sources of information available on the topic, I am by no means the only one.


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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:09:49 AM EST
Next OP will be saying that Mr. Banks wasn’t really saved and Dick Van Dyke didn’t dance with penguins. I’m gob smacked!
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:09:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Danner130:
Hollywood isn't about education, it's about reeducation.
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There are thousands of young people who gave all for our country.
Their stories aren't nearly as cool, so if you don't live in their hometown, or were in their unit, you never heard about their death.
This is a story that begged to be in print. Of course, if there's a dollar to be made the studios will put it on the screen.
Both the book and the movie are just entertainment.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:10:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Danner130:
Hollywood isn't about education, it's about reeducation.
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There are thousands of young people who gave all for our country.
Their stories aren't nearly as cool, so if you don't live in their hometown, or were in their unit, you never heard about their death.
This is a story that begged to be in print. Of course, if there's a dollar to be made the studios will put it on the screen.
Both the book and the movie are just entertainment.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:11:05 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight

Sure, call me a crusader....whatever. I'm a fan of the truth, so what does that matter to you?


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You can't handle the truth.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:12:13 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DRich:
OP - What is your main goal here? Do you want everyone to just admit you're right and thank you for the enlightenment? If so, I'd wager that you not receive satisfaction.

Sometimes in life, you have to realize that not everyone believes the same "truths" and simply agree to disagree. Whether it's politics, religion or, in this case, military actions that will never be fully brought to light, there will not be universal agreement. To insist on such an outcome is foolhardy at best.

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Discussion. My goal here was discussion.

But, I've seen this before, here and on other forums. Dog-piles, attacking people for posting something that isn't popular. No big deal, it happens.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:12:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MikeJGA:
Next OP will be saying that Mr. Banks wasn’t really saved and Dick Van Dyke didn’t dance with penguins. I’m gob smacked!
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Next thing you know he is going to say the deaths of Sean Smith, Tyrone Woods, Glen Doherty, and Chris Stephens are not as actually reported. Posters will respond with "what difference does it make".
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:12:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


No, were you?
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By brown424:
To the OP
Were you there?


No, were you?


No, but Marcus Luttrel was there.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:12:42 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


No, were you?
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By brown424:
To the OP
Were you there?


No, were you?


No would have sufficed. I hadn't read where anyone had asked you that yet.
No, I wasn't there either.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:12:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


I answered that question already. Did you miss my answer?

Let me ask you; if you read a book that was incorrect, and you went on and on talking about it, wouldn't you eventually want someone to inform you of that?

Or are you just cool with being left to your own ignorance?

Sure, call me a crusader....whatever. I'm a fan of the truth, so what does that matter to you?


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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By smithc6:Still, if people believe that, why does it matter so much to you?


I answered that question already. Did you miss my answer?

Let me ask you; if you read a book that was incorrect, and you went on and on talking about it, wouldn't you eventually want someone to inform you of that?

Or are you just cool with being left to your own ignorance?

Sure, call me a crusader....whatever. I'm a fan of the truth, so what does that matter to you?




Or maybe people understand certain things will get exaggerated and dont care because it makes it a good read.

I think I get it now though. How are you involved with the book you initially linked?
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:14:33 AM EST
I called amazon and got expedited shipping, but then I think you already know about expedited shipping.
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Does your wife or girlfriend stop ovulating when you're not around?
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:14:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By aardvark_ratnick:You can't handle the truth.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:16:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


Discussion. My goal here was discussion.

But, I've seen this before, here and on other forums. Dog-piles, attacking people for posting something that isn't popular. No big deal, it happens.
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By DRich:
OP - What is your main goal here? Do you want everyone to just admit you're right and thank you for the enlightenment? If so, I'd wager that you not receive satisfaction.

Sometimes in life, you have to realize that not everyone believes the same "truths" and simply agree to disagree. Whether it's politics, religion or, in this case, military actions that will never be fully brought to light, there will not be universal agreement. To insist on such an outcome is foolhardy at best.



Discussion. My goal here was discussion.

But, I've seen this before, here and on other forums. Dog-piles, attacking people for posting something that isn't popular. No big deal, it happens.


I haven't dog piled you. I'm still just waiting for an answer on why the goat herder story is fiction.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:17:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


Discussion. My goal here was discussion.

But, I've seen this before, here and on other forums. Dog-piles, attacking people for posting something that isn't popular. No big deal, it happens.
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By DRich:
OP - What is your main goal here? Do you want everyone to just admit you're right and thank you for the enlightenment? If so, I'd wager that you not receive satisfaction.

Sometimes in life, you have to realize that not everyone believes the same "truths" and simply agree to disagree. Whether it's politics, religion or, in this case, military actions that will never be fully brought to light, there will not be universal agreement. To insist on such an outcome is foolhardy at best.



Discussion. My goal here was discussion.

But, I've seen this before, here and on other forums. Dog-piles, attacking people for posting something that isn't popular. No big deal, it happens.


However, you insist that people agree with you and appear to be unwilling to discuss any facts/opinions that contradict your own. That is not discussion; that's proselytism.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:17:11 AM EST
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Originally Posted By smithc6:I think I get it now though. How are you involved with the book you initially linked?
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Not at all. Hell, my copy of the book broke at the spine and got trashed about a year ago. I was just thinking about going and getting another copy of it.


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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:18:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DarkNite:I haven't dog piled you. I'm still just waiting for an answer on why the goat herder story is fiction.
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I....uuuuh....I already answered that question too. In detail.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:18:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2014 7:19:09 AM EST by AudiDat]
I stopped being interested in Victory Point when he posted this gem as fact.

A note on the "vote": In Lone Survivor, and countless articles written about Red Wings, Lieutenant Michael Murphy supposedly put to vote whether to kill unarmed Afghan civilians who soft compromised his team. This ended up being a central pillar to the overall story, and hence, countless blog and online discussoin board posts (and print and online articles) on rules of engagement and morality in warfare. Murphy placing something like this up to vote almost certainly did not happen. I'm so certain that it did not happen that I'm going to just say that it did not happen. After reading this in Lone Survivor, I re-interviewed the Marines who had intimate knowledge of Luttrell's after action. All those I re-interviewed stated that nothing in the AAR said anything about a vote.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:19:00 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 13starsinax:
I called amazon and got expedited shipping, but then I think you already know about expedited shipping.
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did you have to pay more?
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:19:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By DRich:However, you insist that people agree with you and appear to be unwilling to discuss any facts/opinions that contradict your own. That is not discussion; that's proselytism.
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Really?

I don't recall ever insisting that anyone agree with me. In fact, I do know I suggested that folks check things out for themselves.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:19:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:


Not at all. Hell, my copy of the book broke at the spine and got trashed about a year ago. I was just thinking about going and getting another copy of it.


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Originally Posted By NoVaRight:
Originally Posted By smithc6:I think I get it now though. How are you involved with the book you initially linked?


Not at all. Hell, my copy of the book broke at the spine and got trashed about a year ago. I was just thinking about going and getting another copy of it.




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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:20:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2014 7:21:28 AM EST by InfiniteGrim]
I for one have been informed by this thread.

But go ahead lynch mob, you seem bored.


DIdn't the Navy come to Luttrell to do the book & movie? I bet they had a part in making the seals look better.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:21:17 AM EST
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Originally Posted By NUCdt04:



did you have to pay more?
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Originally Posted By NUCdt04:
Originally Posted By 13starsinax:
I called amazon and got expedited shipping, but then I think you already know about expedited shipping.



did you have to pay more?


Yes...yes....I was a bit pissed yesterday. I miiiiiiight have taken my anger a bit too far.

Please, don't hold that against me in this thread.

And for the record......I LOLd.
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:21:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Heuristic:
You sure have made it your personal crusade to make sure we all know
about your opinion on the matter.
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Yah I noticed that too! Makes me wonder why...
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Link Posted: 1/7/2014 7:22:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By smithc6:
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Yes?
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