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DarkNite
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:23:30 PM
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?"

After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think?
AmericanSoldier1989
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:25:34 PM
wax on wasc off.
"I believe that forgiving terrorists is God's function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting."
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DarkNite
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:26:28 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By AmericanSoldier1989:
wax on wasc off.


What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of my concern, sir.
liquidsniperR6
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:26:30 PM
It's his opinion and I doubt he will ever be in a position to make a call like that. Let it go
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:28:50 PM
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision.

You want to learn international relations in the real world? Stick a gun in a mother fuckers face and empty his brain pan. -Sylvan
HSDM
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:29:18 PM
Are you asking GD what they would do in that situation where you were going to be comprimised no matter what you did? Or are you asking us if wacking some shepherds is okay? The options you have at the time are very limited and must be made quickly. We are not in that situation, therefore we cannot Monday Morning Quarterback what they did.
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Sevenator
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:30:09 PM
Crush the shepherds...see them driven from before you....hear the lamentations of their goats...

This is the greatest thing.
poorman
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:30:50 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DarkNite:
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?"

After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think?


I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either.
FreeBear: I've been saying it for years: The Gene Pool needs more chlorine. A hellava lot more.
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:31:55 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By HSDM:
Are you asking GD what they would do in that situation where you were going to be comprimised no matter what you did? Or are you asking us if wacking some shepherds is okay? The options you have at the time are very limited and must be made quickly. We are not in that situation, therefore we cannot Monday Morning Quarterback what they did.


They did get their asses kicked....(flame suit on)
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bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:32:28 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By poorman:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?"

After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think?


I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either.


Legal in what way?
You want to learn international relations in the real world? Stick a gun in a mother fuckers face and empty his brain pan. -Sylvan
AmericanSoldier1989
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:32:39 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Originally Posted By AmericanSoldier1989:
wax on wasc off.


What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of my concern, sir.


but u said wacingx
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bteamleader
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:34:23 PM
That's a tough one. Everyone knows exactly what should have happened and what they would have done had they been there. I spoke with a Nightstalker who picked up A-525 in Gulf I. 525's hide was compromised by some kids. It was decided that the kids would be let go and 525 would GTFO. The Nightstalker opined that 525 should have killed the kids. Knowing this guy very well, I couldn't help but chuckle. I asked "would you?' He looked at me knowingly and said "no."

If you did something like that, you would never pass the mirror test again.
DarkNite
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:35:02 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By AmericanSoldier1989:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
Originally Posted By AmericanSoldier1989:
wax on wasc off.


What you do in the privacy of your own home is none of my concern, sir.


but u said wacingx


Different strokes for different folks, Willis.
Cowboy1967
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:35:46 PM
They were discovered either way. If the Shepard's didn't return the alarm would go out. Not killing the Shepard's probably cost them a couple of hours at the most. There was no shortage of fuck ups that led to the events of the day. Communications being the biggest of all.
There's nothing more natural than a beaver."

delemorte
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:37:00 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By poorman:
Originally Posted By DarkNite:
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?"

After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think?


I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either.


it would have been illegal and they took the moral high ground. It cost them their lives and it speaks volume that they took the path they did knowing it was going to bring them a world of pain.

they were better men than me.
Jahdai42
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:37:09 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By bteamleader:

If you did something like that, you would never pass the mirror test again.


Concur
it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing
rustybelly
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:38:03 PM
Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion .
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:40:32 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By rustybelly:
Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion .


Fucking goats everywhere!

Can't have goat shit all over the afghan mountainside.
You want to learn international relations in the real world? Stick a gun in a mother fuckers face and empty his brain pan. -Sylvan
rcsguns
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:40:51 PM
Zip tie goat herders to tree. Shove goats off cliff. Profit!
Or radio in a FUBAR and go play cards.
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FightingHellfish
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:41:07 PM
Are we basing this discussion on the novel or the Hollywood movie?
tyman
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:42:45 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By rustybelly:
Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion .


Smorgasbord for the Taliban?
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Flats
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:43:11 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By bteamleader:
That's a tough one. Everyone knows exactly what should have happened and what they would have done had they been there. I spoke with a Nightstalker who picked up A-525 in Gulf I. 525's hide was compromised by some kids. It was decided that the kids would be let go and 525 would GTFO. The Nightstalker opined that 525 should have killed the kids. Knowing this guy very well, I couldn't help but chuckle. I asked "would you?' He looked at me knowingly and said "no."

If you did something like that, you would never pass the mirror test again.


Probably not if you had the option to UA the AO. If you didn't the calculus is different.

Not a decision I'd want to make, nor will I have to at this point. I certainly wouldn't second-guess someone who had to make that or a similar call, no matter what the results were.
KennyW1983
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:43:53 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By rcsguns:
Zip tie goat herders to tree. Profit!


I wonder why they didnt do that? It would have been a goof compromise. The shepherd would have gotten free eventually and it would have bought them the time to complete the mission or GTFO. No killing of goats or shepherds necessary.
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sherrick13
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:44:03 PM
I won't ever have to make that call. I salute those that have had to and won't second guess them.
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AudiDat
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:45:16 PM
[Last Edit: 1/6/2014 2:56:19 PM by AudiDat]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision.



I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over.
I'll try to find the interview...


ETA: http://navyseals.com/3647/60-minutes-interviews-lone-survivor-part-one/

8 minute mark
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PL#106
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:48:02 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By AudiDat:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision.



I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over.
I'll try to find the interview...


Damned either way, but from a cold tactical view point...
Sylvan
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:50:52 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By M4-AK:
Originally Posted By AudiDat:
Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision.



I'm assuming this is sarcasm?

Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over.
I'll try to find the interview...


Damned either way, but from a cold tactical view point...


Breaking the law of land warfare is stupid.

What happens when joe shephard doesn't come back?

Here is a thought, have an exfil plan for compromise.

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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:53:22 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By sherrick13:
I won't ever have to make that call. I salute those that have had to and won't second guess them.

+1
kssoftwareman
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:54:41 PM
Rules of Engagement and doing what is right. They made the right call but unfortunately the shephards were Taliban-friendly.
gwitness
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:55:39 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By tyman:
Originally Posted By rustybelly:
Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion .


Smorgasbord whores for the Taliban?

fify
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stoner63a
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Posted: 1/6/2014 2:58:39 PM
OP, start a Poll, I'm curious how many stone cold killers, well, at least keyboard commandos we have.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:03:35 PM
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:04:30 PM
You are questioning the actions of a group of four when in actuality it was the team leaders decision. They followed orders and did the right thing. Simple as that.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:05:04 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.


To punish whom?
DRhodes
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:06:04 PM
[Last Edit: 1/6/2014 3:07:01 PM by DRhodes]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Are we basing this discussion on the novel or the Hollywood movie?


Don't be silly dude. Everyone knows that the book (which was NOT written by a British author who writes SEAL fiction) was absolutely 100% correct. The movie will be just as great!



Adding this last line just in case my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough.
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Smatthew
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:06:15 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.


To punish whom?


AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is.

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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:09:26 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Breaking the law of land warfare is stupid.



We've done it deliberately, and will probably do so again. If you have a small enough team in indian country, prisoners aren't an option. That's breaking the law right there.

I'm not saying we should do it lightly, and just like our OTM-bullets-that-aren't-really-hollowpoints there might be some BS language that we can use to claim we're not really breaking it, but we are. And I'm OK with that.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:09:51 PM
I would've put a round on them. That alone could've saved the lives of everyone, specially the SEALs we lost when their Chinook was shot out of the sky.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:13:47 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.


To punish whom?


AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is.


Most of 'stan didn't really support AQ/UBL.


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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:21:58 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.


To punish whom?


AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is.



so, thats a solid 100 dudes in all of AFghanitan in 2001.
Cowboy1967
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:22:32 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.


To punish whom?



The Taliban who were the governing body of Afghanistan at the time. The refused to turn over Osama bin Laden at the time. They were hosting Al Quaeda training camps also. They chose to go to war with us. I know you know this too.
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Sylvan
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:22:33 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
I would've put a round on them. That alone could've saved the lives of everyone, specially the SEALs we lost when their Chinook was shot out of the sky.

what about the fucking crew?

or do they not rate consideration?
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:24:48 PM
Sounds like it wouldn't have made a difference
Black-Tiger
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:28:37 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Black-Tiger:
I would've put a round on them. That alone could've saved the lives of everyone, specially the SEALs we lost when their Chinook was shot out of the sky.

what about the fucking crew?

or do they not rate consideration?


Yes, the Crew of Turbine 33 as well.

You know I meant them too.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:31:48 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Cowboy1967:
The Taliban who were the governing body of Afghanistan at the time. The refused to turn over Osama bin Laden at the time. They were hosting Al Quaeda training camps also. They chose to go to war with us. I know you know this too.


...not to mention the financiers in Saudi Arabia, the fuckers in "Palestine" dancing in the streets, take your pick- the point is to make attacking us or supporting attacks on us hurt, period. In before the chess players accuse me of being needlessly violent without realizing that sanctions against funding the palis would have been a form of warfare.







AR45fan
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:32:46 PM
[Last Edit: 1/6/2014 3:35:02 PM by AR45fan]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By tyman:
Originally Posted By rustybelly:
Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion .


Smorgasbord for the Taliban?


Orgy more like it. They would have had it coming, walking around without male escorts all uncovered and everything.
GADeerHunter
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:34:21 PM
It would be hard for me to consider myself to be on the moral high ground anymore if I did that.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:34:51 PM
I don't have the sack to walk one mile in any of those men's shoes. I sure as hell haven't earned the right to criticize any decision they came to. Brave men.
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:37:20 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place?

Because the military does not question the righteousness, worthiness, or ROEs of the wars they are sent to fight. If they did I doubt America would have been involved in many wars post WWII or maybe Korea.

Originally Posted By Smatthew:If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left

It's hard to engage in a punitive war when your enemy blends into a crowd. Conflicts today are not like WWII or Korea where the armies of two warring nations, clearly identified by their uniforms and standards, wage war against each other.
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Smatthew
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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:40:17 PM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By godzillamax:
Originally Posted By Smatthew:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place?

Because the military does not question the righteousness, worthiness, or ROEs of the wars they are sent to fight. If they did I doubt America would have been involved in many wars post WWII or maybe Korea.

Originally Posted By Smatthew:If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left

It's hard to engage in a punitive war when your enemy blends into a crowd. Conflicts today are not like WWII or Korea where the armies of two warring nations, clearly identified by their uniforms and standards, wage war against each other.


The military doesn't make policy therefore policy can't be made? I'm talking about "we" as a nation.

The crowd is part of the problem if they host the enemy, look up what total warfare is.

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Posted: 1/6/2014 3:40:53 PM
Out of curiosity what type of pay load do the seals carry. They didn't have anything they could tie the herders up to a tree with?

Sucks either way, way better men than I could ever be.
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