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Posted: 1/6/2014 10:23:30 AM EDT
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?"
After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think? |
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[#2]
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[#3]
It's his opinion and I doubt he will ever be in a position to make a call like that. Let it go
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[#4]
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision.
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[#5]
Are you asking GD what they would do in that situation where you were going to be comprimised no matter what you did? Or are you asking us if wacking some shepherds is okay? The options you have at the time are very limited and must be made quickly. We are not in that situation, therefore we cannot Monday Morning Quarterback what they did.
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[#6]
Crush the shepherds...see them driven from before you....hear the lamentations of their goats...
This is the greatest thing. |
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[#7]
Quoted:
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?" After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think? View Quote I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either. |
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[#8]
Quoted:
Are you asking GD what they would do in that situation where you were going to be comprimised no matter what you did? Or are you asking us if wacking some shepherds is okay? The options you have at the time are very limited and must be made quickly. We are not in that situation, therefore we cannot Monday Morning Quarterback what they did. View Quote They did get their asses kicked....(flame suit on) |
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[#9]
Quoted:
I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?" After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think? I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either. Legal in what way? |
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[#10]
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[#11]
That's a tough one. Everyone knows exactly what should have happened and what they would have done had they been there. I spoke with a Nightstalker who picked up A-525 in Gulf I. 525's hide was compromised by some kids. It was decided that the kids would be let go and 525 would GTFO. The Nightstalker opined that 525 should have killed the kids. Knowing this guy very well, I couldn't help but chuckle. I asked "would you?' He looked at me knowingly and said "no."
If you did something like that, you would never pass the mirror test again. |
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[#12]
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[#13]
They were discovered either way. If the Shepard's didn't return the alarm would go out. Not killing the Shepard's probably cost them a couple of hours at the most. There was no shortage of fuck ups that led to the events of the day. Communications being the biggest of all.
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[#14]
Quoted:
I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
So I was explaining what happened on Operation Red Wings to a friend of mine who hadn't heard of it. When I got to the point of where the SEALs let the shepherds go he was like, "Why didn't they just kill them?" After a spirited discussion on lawful combatants and the Law of Land Warfare, he still didn't think there would be a problem with waxing the shepherds if it was probable they were only going to report the SEAL's presence. What do you think? I think technically, it would have been legal. But, ethically, I don't think I could have done it either. it would have been illegal and they took the moral high ground. It cost them their lives and it speaks volume that they took the path they did knowing it was going to bring them a world of pain. they were better men than me. |
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[#15]
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[#16]
Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion .
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[#17]
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[#18]
Zip tie goat herders to tree. Shove goats off cliff. Profit!
Or radio in a FUBAR and go play cards. |
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[#19]
Are we basing this discussion on the novel or the Hollywood movie?
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[#20]
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[#21]
Quoted:
That's a tough one. Everyone knows exactly what should have happened and what they would have done had they been there. I spoke with a Nightstalker who picked up A-525 in Gulf I. 525's hide was compromised by some kids. It was decided that the kids would be let go and 525 would GTFO. The Nightstalker opined that 525 should have killed the kids. Knowing this guy very well, I couldn't help but chuckle. I asked "would you?' He looked at me knowingly and said "no." If you did something like that, you would never pass the mirror test again. View Quote Probably not if you had the option to UA the AO. If you didn't the calculus is different. Not a decision I'd want to make, nor will I have to at this point. I certainly wouldn't second-guess someone who had to make that or a similar call, no matter what the results were. |
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[#22]
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Zip tie goat herders to tree. Profit! View Quote I wonder why they didnt do that? It would have been a goof compromise. The shepherd would have gotten free eventually and it would have bought them the time to complete the mission or GTFO. No killing of goats or shepherds necessary. |
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[#23]
I won't ever have to make that call. I salute those that have had to and won't second guess them.
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[#24]
Quoted:
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision. View Quote I'm assuming this is sarcasm? Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over. I'll try to find the interview... ETA: http://navyseals.com/3647/60-minutes-interviews-lone-survivor-part-one/ 8 minute mark |
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[#25]
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I'm assuming this is sarcasm? Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over. I'll try to find the interview... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision. I'm assuming this is sarcasm? Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over. I'll try to find the interview... Damned either way, but from a cold tactical view point... |
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[#26]
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Damned either way, but from a cold tactical view point... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
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But Afghans are a peaceful people that saved his life. Obviously they made the right decision. I'm assuming this is sarcasm? Marcus has already publicly stated that they made the wrong choice and that he'd do it differently if he had it to do over. I'll try to find the interview... Damned either way, but from a cold tactical view point... Breaking the law of land warfare is stupid. What happens when joe shephard doesn't come back? Here is a thought, have an exfil plan for compromise. |
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[#27]
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[#28]
Rules of Engagement and doing what is right. They made the right call but unfortunately the shephards were Taliban-friendly.
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[#29]
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[#30]
OP, start a Poll, I'm curious how many stone cold killers, well, at least keyboard commandos we have.
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[#31]
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left.
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[#32]
You are questioning the actions of a group of four when in actuality it was the team leaders decision. They followed orders and did the right thing. Simple as that.
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[#33]
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[#34]
Quoted:
Are we basing this discussion on the novel or the Hollywood movie? View Quote Don't be silly dude. Everyone knows that the book (which was NOT written by a British author who writes SEAL fiction) was absolutely 100% correct. The movie will be just as great! Adding this last line just in case my sarcasm wasn't obvious enough. |
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[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left. To punish whom? AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is. |
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[#36]
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Breaking the law of land warfare is stupid. View Quote We've done it deliberately, and will probably do so again. If you have a small enough team in indian country, prisoners aren't an option. That's breaking the law right there. I'm not saying we should do it lightly, and just like our OTM-bullets-that-aren't-really-hollowpoints there might be some BS language that we can use to claim we're not really breaking it, but we are. And I'm OK with that. |
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[#37]
I would've put a round on them. That alone could've saved the lives of everyone, specially the SEALs we lost when their Chinook was shot out of the sky.
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[#38]
Quoted: AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left. To punish whom? AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is. Most of 'stan didn't really support AQ/UBL. |
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[#39]
Quoted:
AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left. To punish whom? AQ/UBL/all parties supporting- you're an educated man, you know what total war is. so, thats a solid 100 dudes in all of AFghanitan in 2001. |
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[#40]
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Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left. To punish whom? The Taliban who were the governing body of Afghanistan at the time. The refused to turn over Osama bin Laden at the time. They were hosting Al Quaeda training camps also. They chose to go to war with us. I know you know this too. |
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[#41]
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[#43]
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what about the fucking crew? or do they not rate consideration? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I would've put a round on them. That alone could've saved the lives of everyone, specially the SEALs we lost when their Chinook was shot out of the sky. what about the fucking crew? or do they not rate consideration? Yes, the Crew of Turbine 33 as well. You know I meant them too. |
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[#44]
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The Taliban who were the governing body of Afghanistan at the time. The refused to turn over Osama bin Laden at the time. They were hosting Al Quaeda training camps also. They chose to go to war with us. I know you know this too. View Quote ...not to mention the financiers in Saudi Arabia, the fuckers in "Palestine" dancing in the streets, take your pick- the point is to make attacking us or supporting attacks on us hurt, period. In before the chess players accuse me of being needlessly violent without realizing that sanctions against funding the palis would have been a form of warfare. |
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[#45]
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Kill the herders then you have to kill the goats too, they're going to be wandering untended and raise suspicion . Smorgasbord for the Taliban? Orgy more like it. They would have had it coming, walking around without male escorts all uncovered and everything. |
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[#46]
It would be hard for me to consider myself to be on the moral high ground anymore if I did that.
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[#47]
I don't have the sack to walk one mile in any of those men's shoes. I sure as hell haven't earned the right to criticize any decision they came to. Brave men.
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[#48]
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Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? Because the military does not question the righteousness, worthiness, or ROEs of the wars they are sent to fight. If they did I doubt America would have been involved in many wars post WWII or maybe Korea. Quoted:If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left It's hard to engage in a punitive war when your enemy blends into a crowd. Conflicts today are not like WWII or Korea where the armies of two warring nations, clearly identified by their uniforms and standards, wage war against each other. |
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[#49]
Quoted:
Because the military does not question the righteousness, worthiness, or ROEs of the wars they are sent to fight. If they did I doubt America would have been involved in many wars post WWII or maybe Korea. It's hard to engage in a punitive war when your enemy blends into a crowd. Conflicts today are not like WWII or Korea where the armies of two warring nations, clearly identified by their uniforms and standards, wage war against each other. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Why did we engage in limited warfare or attempt to nation build that sand pit in the first place? Because the military does not question the righteousness, worthiness, or ROEs of the wars they are sent to fight. If they did I doubt America would have been involved in many wars post WWII or maybe Korea. Quoted:If we really want to do 20/20 hindsight we should have waged a punitive total war for about a year or two then left It's hard to engage in a punitive war when your enemy blends into a crowd. Conflicts today are not like WWII or Korea where the armies of two warring nations, clearly identified by their uniforms and standards, wage war against each other. The military doesn't make policy therefore policy can't be made? I'm talking about "we" as a nation. The crowd is part of the problem if they host the enemy, look up what total warfare is. |
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[#50]
Out of curiosity what type of pay load do the seals carry. They didn't have anything they could tie the herders up to a tree with?
Sucks either way, way better men than I could ever be. |
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